Heresy

[Georges]

Did Jesus love, or whip the moneychangers.....? Did he turn a blind eye?
Perhaps whipped the moneychangers out of love.....

Georges,

You are missing my point; Jesus did not kill anyone.[/b]

and you mine....To insinuate that Jesus was non violent is a false promotion. Did Jesus kill anyone?....probably not...the sources don't say either way....do they? I personally believe he did not, but I can't state that dogmatically.

Was he above using force to illustrate a point? Judging by the scene at the Temple....obviously not....

Question? Will Jesus destroy the AC and army in the future, or will he give them a free pass out of love?

 

[Georges]

...loving the enemy enough to allow moral complacency....

Just some random crazy thoughts.....

It is a good question, but Jesus never killed anyone, and He does not want us to kill anyone because they are evil or immoral. the OT time is over. Revenge is His and not us humans' especially not His followers'.

Did Jesus love, or whip the moneychangers.....? Did he turn a blind eye?
Perhaps whipped the moneychangers out of love.....

Jesus was here to preach the truth of God's word, convict the guilty and save those who admit their guilt. He did not attack the moneychangers but only the tables that represented their greed.

You are right...and you got me on that.....Jesus made a scourge of whips....it doesn't actually say he whipped anyone...it just says he drove them out.....He could have waved it around frantically.....to scrare them.

They do not belong in God's house of worship and neither does the bank stored in the vatican. "Render unto Caesar what is Caesar's and render unto God what is God's."

The money changers who sold animals for sacrifice did belong there, and was acceptable...it was the practice of "cheating the people" that was wrong.

There's a huge difference between righteous anger and sinful anger. Righeous anger is when God is desecrated and sinful anger is when we ourselves are offended. The forer is righteous, the latter is slefish.

I know what the differences are.....and support them....it's the concept that Jesus wasn't confrontational that I had the problem with....

 

[gingercat]

Was he above using force to illustrate a point? Judging by the scene at the Temple....obviously not....

I don't believe what He did in the temple is violent. He was just chasing them away.

Jesus was and is a pacifist. He wants us to be pacifist.

I hope you read my thread "love yur enemy" and join me in the topic. I already addressed many of the issues in that thread.

 

[Georges]

Was he above using force to illustrate a point? Judging by the scene at the Temple....obviously not....

I don't believe what He did in the temple is violent. He was just chasing them away.

Jesus was and is a pacifist. He wants us to be pacifist.

I hope you read my thread "love yur enemy" and join me in the topic. I already addressed many of the issues in that thread.

I do appreciate that....did you address this one?

This is not a pacifist scene.....

Rev 19:11 And I saw heaven opened, and behold a white horse; and he that sat upon him [was] called Faithful and True, and in righteousness he doth judge and make war.
Rev 19:12 His eyes [were] as a flame of fire, and on his head [were] many crowns; and he had a name written, that no man knew, but he himself.
Rev 19:13 And he [was] clothed with a vesture dipped in blood: and his name is called The Word of God.
Rev 19:14 And the armies [which were] in heaven followed him upon white horses, clothed in fine linen, white and clean.
Rev 19:15 And out of his mouth goeth a sharp sword, that with it he should smite the nations: and he shall rule them with a rod of iron: and he treadeth the winepress of the fierceness and wrath of Almighty God.

 

[gingercat]

Yes I did Georges.

I am strong anti-military as Christian. I belive joining the military as a Christian is unbiblical.

 

[Soma-Sight]

Right on, gingercat. Soma has no idea what Paul means when he said the OT was just a shadow, not the realities themselves. OT existed to show us what is right, wrong, just, and unjust. But now we are in the new convenant and we leave vengeance to God, not to ourselves. And since Soma doesn't believe the NT when Jesus tells us to love our enemies instead of killing them, then neither can he understand the OT because the whole bible is the Word of God and therefore cannot be contradicted which he is trying to do.

Your right....

He is just going to burn everyone in hell that doesnt Love Him.....

Thats not murder.... just torture.

 

[gingercat]

Thats not murder.... just torture.

Soma, I thought you said you are Christian. Christians trust what Jesus says. Jesus says if we reject Him we will not go into His kingdom and unrighteous ones will be in the lake of fire.

 

[Georges]

Yes I did Georges.

I am strong anti-military as Christian. I belive joining the military as a Christian is unbiblical.

Interesting....how did you reconcile the verse I had posted....please cut and paste that will you?


Better thank that military (for which you distain) for giving you a country so you can have that opinion of opposition, freely.... :

 

[Vic C.]

Implying Jesus' second coming.....doesn't sound like there is a turning of the other cheek here.....Jesus' is coming back to kick butt and take names...

...To insinuate that Jesus was non violent is a false promotion. Did Jesus kill anyone?....probably not...the sources don't say either way....do they? I personally believe he did not, but I can't state that dogmatically.

Was he above using force to illustrate a point? Judging by the scene at the Temple....obviously not....

Question? Will Jesus destroy the AC and army in the future, or will he give them a free pass out of love?

Rev 3:19 As many as I love, I rebuke and chasten: be zealous therefore, and repent.

Chasten = Paideuo

http://bible.crosswalk.com/Lexicons/New ... umber=3811

Thanks for painting a complete picture, George.

 

[gingercat]

Better thank that military (for which you distain) for giving you a country so you can have that opinion of opposition, freely.... :

I will serve Him whereever I am. I happened to be in this country and that's where I serve Him. I praise God whereever I am. I use every opportunity or privileges He is giving me. He is giving me the privileges to use freedom of speech and I use it fully. Thank you Jesus!!!

 

[Heidi]

Better thank that military (for which you distain) for giving you a country so you can have that opinion of opposition, freely.... :

I will serve Him whereever I am. I happened to be in this country and that's where I serve Him. I praise God whereever I am. I use every opportunity or privileges He is giving me. He is giving me the privileges to use freedom of speech and I use it fully. Thank you Jesus!!!

If God is giving you all that, gingercat, then how can you ever lose your salvation, particuarly when Jesus said; "I will never abandon you"? How can Christ's death be reversed? And most importantly, once you meet someone, how can you then ever deny he exists? :o

 

[gingercat]

If God is giving you all that, gingercat, then how can you ever lose your salvation, particuarly when Jesus said; "I will never abandon you"? How can Christ's death be reversed? And most importantly, once you meet someone, how can you then ever deny he exists? :o

Heide, I am only human; I don't believe I stop loving him but If I truly love Him I have to show Him my loyalty to Him the rest of life. If I keep run the race until end I am sure I will be with Him forever. He never abandon me if I love Him until end.

 

[Heidi]

If God is giving you all that, gingercat, then how can you ever lose your salvation, particuarly when Jesus said; "I will never abandon you"? How can Christ's death be reversed? And most importantly, once you meet someone, how can you then ever deny he exists? :o

Heide, I am only human; I don't believe I stop loving him but If I truly love Him I have to show Him my loyalty to Him the rest of life. If I keep run the race until end I am sure I will be with Him forever. He never abandon me if I love Him until end.

Gingercat, being a Christian takes about as much work as thanking someone for rescuing us from a burning fire. Now the only people who would never thank someone for rescuing them are those who do not understand what the rescuer did for them.. They therefore have never felt the glories of forgiveness in the first place! So that's where the problem lies, not in "doing good deeds" Good deeds come from thankfulness! We either do good deeds to glorify ourselves or good deeds to glorify God. The Pharisees did that former and Christians are supposed to do the latter. True good deeds come from love. But good deeds without love are done to gain honor for oneself.

Jesus said, "First clean your cup from the inside and the outside will become clean as well." He is not lying here, gingercat."For our of the overflow of the heart, the mouth speaks." Christ cleans the inside with his blood. Then the outside will become clean as well.

 

[gingercat]

Jesus said, "First clean your cup from the inside and the outside will become clean as well." He is not lying here, gingercat."For our of the overflow of the heart, the mouth speaks." Christ cleans the inside with his blood. Then the outside will become clean as well.

Heide,

Yes, we have to keep clean until the end, and not only one time. This is our responsibility and He will help us to be cleaner.

 

[Heidi]

Jesus said, "First clean your cup from the inside and the outside will become clean as well." He is not lying here, gingercat."For our of the overflow of the heart, the mouth speaks." Christ cleans the inside with his blood. Then the outside will become clean as well.

Heide,

Yes, we have to keep clean until the end, and not only one time. This is our responsibility and He will help us to be cleaner.

So how can you keep clean without the Holy Spirit? And since Jesus said the Holy Spirit will never abandon you, then how can you lose your salvation? That's what Jesus means when he said that no one can snatch his true sheep out of his hand. No one.

Again, it is the Holy Spirit that convicts us inside when we sin, gingercat. It is the Holy Spirit that leads us to confess our sins and receive forgiveness. And that is why Paul said; "He who began a good work in you will carry it on to completion." But too many Christians try to take credit for what the Holy Spirit inside of us is doing and that is 100% wrong. :evil: Even Jesus himself said; "The words are I say to you are not my own. Rather it is my Father living in me that is doing the work. "Have faith in the power of God, not in your own power, gingercat.

 

[gingercat]

So how can you keep clean without the Holy Spirit?

Heide,

You are not reading my comments. I said "If we resist the Devil then He help us to be clean". When we do our part of responsibility then Holy Spirit help us the rest because we are so imperfect!

No matter how hard we try we can never match up with His standeard! That's why we need Jesus! You keep forgetting our part of responsibility!

 

[Heidi]

So how can you keep clean without the Holy Spirit?

Heide,

You are not reading my comments. I said "If we resist the Devil then He help us to be clean". When we do our part of responsibility then Holy Spirit help us the rest because we are so imperfect!

No matter how hard we try we can never match up with His standeard! That's why we need Jesus! You keep forgetting our part of responsibility!

Actually, it is you who is not reading my comments. I said the Holy Spirit in us is what convicts us of sin. Those who have the indwelling Holy Spirit will be so uncomforatble when we sin that we have no choice but to alleviate the pain by asking Christ for forgiveness! As Jesus said; "Rather, it is the Father living in me that is doing the work." What part of that don't you believe? :o

 

[gingercat]

I said the Holy Spirit in us is what convicts us of sin.

Holy Spirit convicts us of sin but we don't have to listen if don't want to. That's is our free will to resist conviction too. He does not force us to listen to Him.

 

[Heidi]

I said the Holy Spirit in us is what convicts us of sin.

Holy Spirit convicts us of sin but we don't have to listen if don't want to. That's is our free will to resist conviction too. He does not force us to listen to Him.

So you're saying that the one who is in us is not greater than us or the one in the world. is that corect? If so, then why do you think man's power is bigger than God's? Do you know what Jesus means when he said; "I can do nothing without my Father." But apparently you think you can do things without your Father, do you not? If not, then why do you think that God won't carry on to completion the work He began in us, gingercat? :o

Sorry, but God is not up there sweating out our decisions. He is not saying; "Gee, I hope jacob, David, Heidi, ginergcat do what I prepared in advance for them to do. Otherwise my plans would be wrong. Oh no, what am I going to do? Leave it up to them to foil my plans?"

But what he is saying is that I will make sure that my servants do what I prepared in advance for them to do so I'll send them the Holy Spirit, the Spirit of truth" who will lead them into all truth. And since the Holy Spirit is bgreater than the devil, then they will be ruled by the Spirit, as paul says, not by the sinful nature. But apparently you don't believe that either.

Christ has victory over the devil, not we ourselves. It is his battle with the devil, not ours because we have no power over the devil gingercat, only Christ does. And if you don't believe that, then there's nothing more I can do for you.

 

[gingercat]

So you're saying that the one who is in us is not greater than us or the one in the world.

No Heide, I never said that!

All I am saying is that God does not force us to love Him. Salvation is not one time confession and we are all set.

We have free will to accept Him or reject Him from the beginning.

Once we accept Him we have to show our will to continually obey Him by following Jesus' teachings.

He did not have say to follow Him If He did not give us responsibilities.

All our responsibilities are in the New Testament.

Salvation is not just to acknowledge Him as Savior, it is also accepting Him as our Lord and Master. We are His servants; Servants obey His teachings.

When we accepted Him as Lord and Savior, it is just our beginning of salvation. We have to be loyal to Him until end. That's why He tells us that narrow is the road that leads to life and only a few find it.

OSAS theology is just gimmic to make people feel good about easy salvation they made up.

This theology turn people away who are trully seeking the truth, justice, fairness and righteouseness.