Hey You Pre-Tribbers!!!

[archangel_300]

I did not say it was the end of the world...
If Christ returns at the end of the tribulation (7 years)..wouldn't that be 1260 days from the middle. The antichrist will stand in the middle of the week/years..(Dan.7:27)..the middle will be 3 1/2 years, right?
So the end of the tribulation will be 3 1/2 years after that..which is the same as 42 months..1260 days.

Who says the middle of the week is a reference to the great tribulation period?
You're thinking that the antichrist is the abomination of desolation but the abomination of desolation appears to have been set up when the daily sacrifices in Jerusalem were taken away. This would mean AD 70 if I'm not mistaken.

Daniel 11:31
And forces shall be mustered by him, and they shall defile the sanctuary fortress; then they shall take away the daily sacrifices, and place there the abomination of desolation.

Daniel 12:11
“And from the time that the daily sacrifice is taken away, and the abomination of desolation is set up, there shall be one thousand two hundred and ninety days.

Again Daniel 12:11 is another argument that the 1260 days is the entire church age. The abomination of desolation will last longer than the 1260 days.

 

[awaken]

I did not say it was the end of the world...
If Christ returns at the end of the tribulation (7 years)..wouldn't that be 1260 days from the middle. The antichrist will stand in the middle of the week/years..(Dan.7:27)..the middle will be 3 1/2 years, right?
So the end of the tribulation will be 3 1/2 years after that..which is the same as 42 months..1260 days.

Who says the middle of the week is a reference to the great tribulation period?
You're thinking that the antichrist is the abomination of desolation but the abomination of desolation appears to have been set up when the daily sacrifices in Jerusalem were taken away. This would mean AD 70 if I'm not mistaken.

Daniel 11:31
And forces shall be mustered by him, and they shall defile the sanctuary fortress; then they shall take away the daily sacrifices, and place there the abomination of desolation.

Daniel 12:11
“And from the time that the daily sacrifice is taken away, and the abomination of desolation is set up, there shall be one thousand two hundred and ninety days.

Again Daniel 12:11 is another argument that the 1260 days is the entire church age. The abomination of desolation will last longer than the 1260 days.

"After the sixty-two 'sevens,' the Anointed One will be cut off and will have nothing. The people of the ruler who will come will destroy the city and the sanctuary. The end will come like a flood: War will continue until the end, and desolations have been decreed. He [the future ruler] will confirm a covenant with many for one 'seven.' In the middle of the 'seven' he will put an end to sacrifice and offering. And on a wing of the temple he will set up an abomination that causes desolation, until the end that is decreed is poured out on him." (Daniel 9:26-27)

"The king [the future ruler] will do as he pleases. He will exalt and magnify himself above every god and will say unheard-of things against the God of gods. He will be successful until the time of wrath is completed, for what has been determined must take place. He will show no regard for the gods of his fathers or for the one desired by women, nor will he regard any god, but will exalt himself above them all." (Daniel 11:36-37)

"Dear children, this is the last hour; and as you have heard that the antichrist is coming, even now many antichrists have come. This is how we know it is the last hour." (1 John 2:18)
Many have come...but he is speaking of THE ANTICHRIST.

"Don't let anyone deceive you in any way, for that day will not come until the rebellion occurs and the man of lawlessness is revealed, the man doomed to destruction. He will oppose and will exalt himself over everything that is called God or is worshiped, so that he sets himself up in God's temple, proclaiming himself to be God. Don't you remember that when I was with you I used to tell you these things? And now you know what is holding him back, so that he may be revealed at the proper time. For the secret power of lawlessness is already at work; but the one who now holds it back will continue to do so till he is taken out of the way. And then the lawless one will be revealed, whom the Lord Jesus will overthrow with the breath of his mouth and destroy by the splendor of his coming. The coming of the lawless one will be in accordance with the work of Satan displayed in all kinds of counterfeit miracles, signs and wonders, and in every sort of evil that deceives those who are perishing. They perish because they refused to love the truth and so be saved." (2 Thessalonians 2:3-10)

"And the dragon [the devil, see Revelation 20:2] stood on the shore of the sea. And I saw a beast [the future ruler] coming out of the sea. He had ten horns and seven heads, with ten crowns on his horns, and on each head a blasphemous name. The beast I saw resembled a leopard, but had feet like those of a bear and a mouth like that of a lion. The dragon gave the beast his power and his throne and great authority. One of the heads of the beast seemed to have had a fatal wound, but the fatal wound had been healed. The whole world was astonished and followed the beast. Men worshiped the dragon because he had given authority to the beast, and they also worshiped the beast and asked, "Who is like the beast? Who can make war against him?" The beast was given a mouth to utter proud words and blasphemies and to exercise his authority for forty-two months. He opened his mouth to blaspheme God, and to slander his name and his dwelling place and those who live in heaven. He was given power to make war against the saints and to conquer them. And he was given authority over every tribe, people, language and nation. All inhabitants of the earth will worship the beast--all whose names have not been written in the book of life belonging to the Lamb that was slain from the creation of the world." (Revelation 13:1-8)

So you are saying all this has happened????

 

[archangel_300]

"After the sixty-two 'sevens,' the Anointed One will be cut off and will have nothing. The people of the ruler who will come will destroy the city and the sanctuary. The end will come like a flood: War will continue until the end, and desolations have been decreed. He [the future ruler] will confirm a covenant with many for one 'seven.' In the middle of the 'seven' he will put an end to sacrifice and offering. And on a wing of the temple he will set up an abomination that causes desolation, until the end that is decreed is poured out on him." (Daniel 9:26-27)

The anointed one is Christ and he was cut off for the sins of the world.
Eventually in AD 70 sacrifice and offering ceased and that is the time in which the abomination of desolation was set up and will continue to exist throughout history? (I believe)
I don't see how this is related to the great tribulation period? Please explain how you arrive at this conclusion.

"The king [the future ruler] will do as he pleases. He will exalt and magnify himself above every god and will say unheard-of things against the God of gods. He will be successful until the time of wrath is completed, for what has been determined must take place. He will show no regard for the gods of his fathers or for the one desired by women, nor will he regard any god, but will exalt himself above them all." (Daniel 11:36-37)

Yes but I believe this is referring to the passage in 2 Thessalonians 2.
And again we read in verse 7. "The mystery of lawlessness is ALREADY AT WORK".
It was at work during the time of the apostle Paul and it CONTINUES to work until that which restrains him is taken out of the way. That means this the man of sin / son of perdition will continue to exist until the end of the world. When that which restrains him is taken out of the way this lawlessness will be revealed in its true destructive self.

2 Thessalonians 2:3 Let no one deceive you by any means; for that Day will not come unless the falling away comes first, and the man of sin is revealed, the son of perdition, 4 who opposes and exalts himself above all that is called God or that is worshiped, so that he sits as God in the temple of God, showing himself that he is God. 5 Do you not remember that when I was still with you I told you these things? 6 And now you know what is restraining, that he may be revealed in his own time. 7 For the mystery of lawlessness is already at work; only He who now restrains will do so until He is taken out of the way. 8 And then the lawless one will be revealed, whom the Lord will consume with the breath of His mouth and destroy with the brightness of His coming.

"Dear children, this is the last hour; and as you have heard that the antichrist is coming, even now many antichrists have come. This is how we know it is the last hour." (1 John 2:18)
Many have come...but he is speaking of THE ANTICHRIST.

Yes but read a couple verses down. How does this support a one man anti christ?

1 John 2:22 Who is a liar but he who denies that Jesus is the Christ? He is antichrist who denies the Father and the Son. 23 Whoever denies the Son does not have the Father either; he who acknowledges the Son has the Father also.

"And the dragon [the devil, see Revelation 20:2] stood on the shore of the sea. And I saw a beast [the future ruler] coming out of the sea. He had ten horns and seven heads, with ten crowns on his horns, and on each head a blasphemous name. The beast I saw resembled a leopard, but had feet like those of a bear and a mouth like that of a lion. The dragon gave the beast his power and his throne and great authority. One of the heads of the beast seemed to have had a fatal wound, but the fatal wound had been healed. The whole world was astonished and followed the beast. Men worshiped the dragon because he had given authority to the beast, and they also worshiped the beast and asked, "Who is like the beast? Who can make war against him?" The beast was given a mouth to utter proud words and blasphemies and to exercise his authority for forty-two months. He opened his mouth to blaspheme God, and to slander his name and his dwelling place and those who live in heaven. He was given power to make war against the saints and to conquer them. And he was given authority over every tribe, people, language and nation. All inhabitants of the earth will worship the beast--all whose names have not been written in the book of life belonging to the Lamb that was slain from the creation of the world." (Revelation 13:1-8)

So you are saying all this has happened????

YES and it continues to do so untill the end of the church age.
Take a look at verse that describes the beast is capable of uttering proud words and blasphemies for 42 MONTHS. The saints will be GIVEN into his hand... Again as I've stated before the 42 months is a reference to the entire church age. Look at how many Christians died under the hands of Nero. Look at how many Christian martyrs died or were thrown into prison for their faith throughout all history. Not all of us are going to be blessed as Daniel or Meschach, Shadrach, and Abendego. We won't be miraculously delivered when persecution strikes us. This beast is a reincarnation of the defeated dragon mentioned in Revelation 12. It is this beast that OUTWARDLY attacks and persecutes the church whenever it can. It is not until Revelation 13:11 that another beast looking like Christ comes to deceive and to destroy the church INTERNALLY with counterfeit miracles and signs and all sorts of spiritual deception. This second beast looking like Christ is just a mirror image of the first beast.

The first beast to whom the dragon gave its authority to IS the little horn of Daniel 7. Notice this beast/horn can continue to make war and prevail against the saints UNTIL the Ancient of Days came and the SAINTS POSSESSED THE KINGDOM. That is to say that the beast continues until the end of the world. And as I have proved before the 1260 days = time times half time = 42 months. I've also proved that the START of the 1260 days began at Pentecost or around the time that christ was resurrected and ascended into heaven.

Daniel 7 :21 “I was watching; and the same horn was making war against the saints, and prevailing against them, 22 until the Ancient of Days came, and a judgment was made in favor of the saints of the Most High, and the time came for the saints to possess the kingdom.
23 “Thus he said:
‘ The fourth beast shall be
A fourth kingdom on earth,
Which shall be different from all other kingdoms,
And shall devour the whole earth,
Trample it and break it in pieces.
24 The ten horns are ten kings
Who shall arise from this kingdom.
And another shall rise after them;
He shall be different from the first ones,
And shall subdue three kings.
25 He shall speak pompous words against the Most High,
Shall persecute[d] the saints of the Most High,
And shall intend to change times and law.
Then the saints shall be given into his hand
For a time and times and half a time.

 

[Shilohsfoal]

The first beast to whom the dragon gave its authority to IS the little horn of Daniel 7. Notice this beast/horn can continue to make war and prevail against the saints UNTIL the Ancient of Days came and the SAINTS POSSESSED THE KINGDOM. That is to say that the beast continues until the end of the world. And as I have proved before the 1260 days = time times half time = 42 months. I've also proved that the START of the 1260 days began at Pentecost or around the time that christ was resurrected and ascended into heaven.

The question is ,is do you know who the little horn is that possess the kingdom before the saints possess that kingdom?


Who did Jesus say it would be taken from when it comes time for the saints to inherit it?

 

[archangel_300]

The question is ,is do you know who the little horn is that possess the kingdom before the saints possess that kingdom?

Who did Jesus say it would be taken from when it comes time for the saints to inherit it?

It has to be Satan's power that continues throughout the entire new testament period which is responsible for the churches persecution and the like. There are very similar characteristics between the little horn and the beast of Revelation 13 which makes me suspect they are the same entity. Both continue to do the same things within the same time period as well. I know for sure the beast in Revelation 13 is Satan because anything with seven heads and ten horns represents Satan.

Unless someone can overturn my interpretation of Revelation 12 (woman/dragon) or prove that the start of the 1260 days is really referring to the great tribulation period this is the interpretation I stand by.

I have always looked at the ancient of days coming and the saints possessing the kingdom as Christ's second return.

Revelation 11:15 Then the seventh angel sounded: And there were loud voices in heaven, saying, “The kingdoms of this world have become the kingdoms of our Lord and of His Christ, and He shall reign forever and ever!â€

The destroy it forever indicates the wrath of God in damnation. That is judgment day has come and Satan and all his kingdom is destroyed under God's wrath.

Daniel 7:26 ‘ But the court shall be seated, And they shall take away his dominion, To consume and destroy it forever.

 

[veteran]

Can you prove that Matthew 24/Mark 13 are referring to the seven seals in Revelation 6?

Biblically, yes, I can, Mark 13 giving the best parallel. And I've already done just that more than once on this Forum, just not in this thread.

Ok... so lets start off with the 1260 days / time times dividing time / 42 months.
Hopefully by now we know they are all the same thing. Are we in agreement?
If so please explain how you arrive at the 1260 days referring specifically to the time of the great tribulation period. I need more biblical evidence than the three woes. I don't see this because Revelation 12 is clearly a reference to the church and the church flees into the wilderness for that amount of time. I don't think we can say after the child was born that then the great tribulation starts.

I agree they are all about the same timing, though there is a slight difference between 1260 days and 42 months. The closest calendar reckoning to God's timing is the solar calendar, which can be a bit different than a calendar based on months (i.e., the moon).

I must assume then, that you have not understood this...

Dan 7:24-25
24 And the ten horns out of this kingdom are ten kings that shall arise: and another shall rise after them; and he shall be diverse from the first, and he shall subdue three kings.
25 And he shall speak great words against the most High, and shall wear out the saints of the most High, and think to change times and laws: and they shall be given into his hand until a time and times and the dividing of time.
(KJV)

Rev.13 and in Rev.17:10-14 are both related to that Daniel passage about the "little horn" king that comes up among the other ten horns, and makes war upon the saints. In Rev.17:10-14 that war is revealed, also in Rev.13:5-7 that war with the saints is shown with power to continue for 42 months.

Then in Dan.8 more is revealed about that time of the little horn's working...

Dan 7:8-12
8 I considered the horns, and, behold, there came up among them another little horn, before whom there were three of the first horns plucked up by the roots: and, behold, in this horn were eyes like the eyes of man, and a mouth speaking great things.
9 I beheld till the thrones were cast down, and the Ancient of days did sit, Whose garment was white as snow, and the hair of His head like the pure wool: His throne was like the fiery flame, and His wheels as burning fire.
10 A fiery stream issued and came forth from before Him: thousand thousands ministered unto Him, and ten thousand times ten thousand stood before Him: the judgment was set, and the books were opened.
11 I beheld then because of the voice of the great words which the horn spake: I beheld even till the beast was slain, and his body destroyed, and given to the burning flame.
(KJV)

The order there is the working of the ten horns and the little horn, until God cast their thrones down, and His judgment on them slays the beast in burning flame. That's the Rev.19 event when the beast and false prophet are thrown into the lake of fire. Daniel 7:20-22 gives that same order of that little horn working all the way up to the time of his destruction by Christ.

Dan 7:20-22
20 And of the ten horns that were in his head, and of the other which came up, and before whom three fell; even of that horn that had eyes, and a mouth that spake very great things, whose look was more stout than his fellows.
21 I beheld, and the same horn made war with the saints, and prevailed against them;
22 Until the Ancient of days came, and judgment was given to the saints of the most High; and the time came that the saints possessed the kingdom.
(KJV)

So right there, that is linking the 42 months of Rev.13 when that beast working happens and is given power over the saints. It also shows his false working continues until he is overthrown by God, which would be with the brightness of our Lord's coming on the 7th trumpet - 3rd woe per Rev.11, for that's also when Rev.11 mentions the time of rewards for Christ's servants.

Then it's a simple matter to figure out which half of the symbolic "one week" (7 years) that little horn would have to work to account for a 42 month (1260 days) period prior to Christ's coming. It would have to be the last half of the "one week".

The 6th trumpet is tied with the 6th vial about the river Euphrates (Rev.16:12-16). On the 6th vial the beast is still in operation on earth and not destroyed by Christ's coming yet on the 7th trumpet and vial. Christ's "thousand years" reign won't begin until after that 7th vial, and 7th trumpet occurs. Within the 6th trumpet - 2nd woe period, God's two witnesses are still prophesying during the 1260 day period per Rev.11. See how those 3 woe periods force the events to be in a certain order?

Ahh... this is something I haven't seen before. I agree that there is a possible connection between the trumpets and the vials.

Both trumpets/vials have things in common:
1st - earth struck
2nd - sea struck
3rd - rivers struck
4th - sun struck
5th - darkness
6th - Euphrates
7th - End of the world

Yeah, but to grasp that one has to overcome the temptation to treat our Lord's Book of Revelation like all its chapters are given in sequential order. This is why I keep saying to watch the 'events' our Lord gave, understand them and compare.

I disagree the part being purified by fire is for the great tribulation period.
Fire typically represents the wrath of God. God did bring us through the fires of judgment through the body of Jesus Christ. That did happen at the crucifixion as God's wrath was being poured out on Jesus Christ for our sins. We are purified by the cross of Jesus Christ because now we stand before God blameless since he took the punishment we deserved. And yes after the cross 2/3 of humanity did die because their sins were not paid for by Jesus Christ. (I'm not sure if the 2/3 is literal or symbolic but I'm inclined to think it is symbolic)

The idea is not mine, it's what God said He will do with some of His own...

Dan 11:33-35
33 And they that understand among the people shall instruct many: yet they shall fall by the sword, and by flame, by captivity, and by spoil, many days.
34 Now when they shall fall, they shall be holpen with a little help: but many shall cleave to them with flatteries.
35 And some of them of understanding shall fall, to try them, and to purge, and to make them white, even to the time of the end: because it is yet for a time appointed.
(KJV)

In Malachi 3, Christ is compared to "fuller's soap" and a "refiner's fire" and "a purifier of silver". For some, He is going to purify them through trials. In Rev.3:18 our Lord is commanding us to buy of Him gold tried in the fire. The whole idea is about seeking His Ways and obeying Him, and then all our old dross is purged away, even if that means some of us must go through tribulation and trials. That is like silver having its dross impurities purged away by fire. So it's definitely not the same thing as His wrath of fire that burns up the wicked chaff like dry thorns. If you've ever seen a dried out bush burn, like cracklin', it's like swoosh... and it's all gone at an instant. That's not the same idea as silver or gold that has impurities being melted away to leave pristine pure silver or gold.

I disagree that the one third slain are unbelievers.
It's good that we agree this slaying is spiritual not literal, so lets start off with this fact.

The thing is these are believers because what's remaining after they are slayed are all unbelievers.
There is no one left on the planet that are believers after this slaying.
I think this seems to be linked with the fact that during the end times the gospel will be shut out during the great tribulation period. The beast destroys the two witnesses, their candlesticks no longer shine and they no longer testify. This seems to be the same event.

I really didn't say the one third slain are all unbelievers. And yes, the main idea of the locust army's working is about spiritual deception, as that's the main warning our Lord Jesus gave about the end also. Some of us may be killed during the tribulation, but our Lord Jesus showed in Rev.9 those subject to the stinging specifically are NOT to be killed. And that stinging is about deception. For Christ's elect who won't be deceived, that stinging of deception won't work on us, and that's why I believe some of us will be killed. In relation to what you're saying, I believe the time of trials upon Christ's elect will mainly come at the very end of the last half.

How do you interpret Revelation 10?

I believe it's parenthetical, meaning a quick view of certain events when all is fulfilled. John is told to not write down what the seven thunders uttered because why? Which comes first, the lightning or the thunder? Lightning does. The sound of thunder happens aftwards. Recall our Lord related His coming like lightning shining from east to west in Matt.24. In verse 7, our Lord is giving us yet another hint as to the time of His coming and the end with the seventh angel sounding. Then John is told to "take" the Book and eat it (urge to devour it in understanding), for he was sent to prophesy to many. It was bitter in his belly, but sweet to the taste, put for God's Word that reveals many hard things to take, while at the same time revealing our Heavenly Father's sweet Salvation through The Gospel of His Son Jesus Christ.

If the two witnesses don't represent the body of believers how come they are the only ones raptured at this point?

Their resurrection only signals the coming resurrection and change at the twinkling of an eye within that "same hour" per Rev.11:13. What does it show the nations and those in Jerusalem will be doing while their dead bodies lay in the street? The nations are going to be LOOKING at their dead bodies, rejoicing over their deaths, giving each other gifts, basically throwing a big party. So, when God's Spirit enters them after the three and one half days, and they stand up on their feet, what affect will that have upon the nations? In other words, God is going to show the whole world something that's going to get their undivided attention. And then the events of Christ's coming happen next, within that same hour. It's about shock value. That's why it's written there that great fear will fall upon those who see it.

Again the Gentiles thread the holy city/outer court for 42 months... a reference to the entire new testament period...

Afraid not brother, for the Rev.11:1 events are given within the timing of the 6th trumpet - 2nd woe period, pointing to the period of 42 months of false messiah's reign on earth, doing miracles and wonders to fool the majority of the world in worshipping him in place of God. That 42 months time requires his presence on earth working that grand deception, a level of deception that has never ever happened on earth before.

 

[veteran]

I don't believe in a future 1000 year reign of Christ. Please reread my post that begins with "I hate to burst anyone's bubble here". When Christ returns it will be not only the end of the world but the destruction of this universe. Christ can't reign anywhere for a 1000 years.

I really don't see how you could miss that period in Rev.20. The details are very strong as to that happening after the beast is defeated at Christ's coming, and He hands out rewards to His saints who rule with Him for a period of a "thousand years". It even links with Rev.11:18 events that happen after the 7th trumpet - 3rd woe period. So once again, the 3 woes our Lord Jesus gave serve to anchor the order even for His future "thousand years" reign on earth.

The idea that the earth is going to be totally gone is not actual, but metaphorical. God has said that He established the earth forever (Ps.78:69; Ps.104:5). When He speaks of "a new heavens and a new earth", even that He is speaking of the same earth that has always been. The difference is about what condition the earth's surface is in. With the flood of Noah's day He wiped all the inhabitants off it except Noah's family and what was on the ark. Likewise at the end of this world, this earth is going to be cleansed once again, but by His consuming fire this next time, burning man's works off it. And Rev.20:9 verifies that with the "camp of the saints" and "beloved city" existing on earth.

Of course the church will never be dead... however, their testimony will be.
Here's why I believe the light of the gospel will one day be shut out.

I'm not sure if God was specifically addressing the nation of Israel here but the phrase underlined troubles me and seems to suggest otherwise.
Amos 8:11-12 “ Behold, the days are coming,†says the Lord GOD, “ That I will send a famine on the land, Not a famine of bread, Nor a thirst for water, But of hearing the words of the LORD.
12 They shall wander from sea to sea, And from north to east; They shall run to and fro, seeking the word of the LORD, But shall not find it."

Faith comes by hearing and hearing by God's word (Romans 10:17). If when Christ comes he doesn't find faith that would mean the gospel has lost its effectiveness.

Luke 18:8 I tell you that He will avenge them speedily. Nevertheless, when the Son of Man comes, will He really find faith on the earth?â€

But that's about the deceived. Does God's Word show ALL will be deceived in the last days? God forbid, no. God's sealing of His servants in Rev.7 and 9 specifically reveals those of His that won't be 'drunken in the night', and won't be spiritually asleep, but will remain spiritually sober waiting for the proper time of Christ's coming by watching the events He gave leading up to it. Walk with those servants who will wait, for there are many of us today. And those of us who wait for Him will be testifying for Him all the way up to His coming, just as His two witnesses will. The "two candlesticks" symbol given along with the two witnesses are about two of the seven symbolic Churches in Revelation. Recall at the end of Rev.1 our Lord said the seven candlesticks are the seven Churches. Now that means five of the seven Churches won't wait. Which do you want to be part of?

Show me another parable in scripture where symbols are mixed with literal.
It would seem that if one part of the story is symbolic the entire story is symbolic.
I don't see how a symbolically understood beast can destroy two literal men who have fire breath. And again as I've stated in my previous post, if these are two literal men how come they are the only ones raptured?

Look at the tail end of my previous post about the resurrection timing in relation to the two witnesses and Christ's coming. And remember what Paul taught about the "last trump" in 1 Cor.15 concerning the resurrection and change of those who remain at the "twinkling of an eye". Paul was teaching that directly from the OT prophets, like Isaiah 25 for one. In Isaiah 29, God shows it will happen at an instant suddenly. That's where Apostle Paul got the idea of the "sudden destruction" upon the deceived in 1 Thess.5. A thorough study of the OT prophets will greatly help with the meanings in the NT, especially in Revelation. That's why Apostle Peter told us to be mindful of the OT prophets.

As far as parables and metaphors our Lord uses in His Word, I wouldn't know where to begin because that's how He communicates throughout every Book of His Word. And much of the time He uses agricultural terms and things in nature which He created. It's no mystery, because the purpose of it is to make His Word EASIER to understand, not more difficult. If you understand how something in nature works, then we're to simply compare that with the event or object it's used to represent. Man is who makes it difficult, and especially the many false prophets in the world, because the methods the pagan priests used of old was to 'confuse' the simple, add unrelated stories to the Truth instead, all in order to either gain power over the people, or to keep power over them. That's the working of charlatans who pretend to be somebody but are not.

Our Lord's Book of Revelation is not doing a new thing with all it's symbology and metaphor, for that method of delivery was also used in the Old Testament Books, especially in the Books of the prophets. Do I believe The Holy Spirit must be present to help us rightly understand how God is using metaphor, figures of speech and symbols? Yes. We EACH must ask our Heavenly Father through His Son for that understanding, and not rely on any man, even though God has sent helpers in study. It still must come from Him. But first, we must show ourselves approved by studying all of His Word, like Paul said to Timothy in 2 Timothy 2:15. I'm a firm believer that if one does it God's Way, like in Isaiah 28 how He showed, then they will not be ashamed.

 

[archangel_300]

I agree they are all about the same timing, though there is a slight difference between 1260 days and 42 months. The closest calendar reckoning to God's timing is the solar calendar, which can be a bit different than a calendar based on months (i.e., the moon).

Good, I'm glad we are in agreement here. I'm also glad we agree the little horn is the beast of Revelation 13. So now we have to conclude then (unless scripture clearly proves otherwise) that the events that occur within each of these mentioned periods occur CONCURRENTLY. (Again unless scripture clearly proves otherwise). We cannot decouple the events from one another as they
are all referring to the same time period.

We can clearly conclude and agree that after 1260 days is finished Christ returns. This is very clear in scripture. So now the big question is when does the 1260 days start?

I believe the scripture is clear that 1260 started at the time of Christ's asension into heaven and the persecution of the church started. (Rev 12/Acts 1)

To summarize my entire theory here is what I see:
1. The persecution of the church through out the church age. (Rev 13/Daniel 7)
2. The church being spiritually fed and divinely protected throughout the church age. (Rev 12)
3. The church as God's witnesses to testify of the gospel to the world throughout the entire church age. (Rev 11)

How do you prove that the 1260 days is:
1. Even talking about the great tribulation period.. the main problem being Revelation 12.
2. that the start of the 1260 starts the great tribulation period

Then it's a simple matter to figure out which half of the symbolic "one week" (7 years) that little horn would have to work to account for a 42 month (1260 days) period prior to Christ's coming. It would have to be the last half of the "one week".

Using scripture please show me how the first half of the week represents one part of the 1260 days and show me how the second half represents the second part. What happens during the first half of the week? Please show me your theory here.

I believe it's parenthetical, meaning a quick view of certain events when all is fulfilled. John is told to not write down what the seven thunders uttered because why? Which comes first, the lightning or the thunder? Lightning does. The sound of thunder happens aftwards. Recall our Lord related His coming like lightning shining from east to west in Matt.24. In verse 7, our Lord is giving us yet another hint as to the time of His coming and the end with the seventh angel sounding.
Then John is told to "take" the Book and eat it (urge to devour it in understanding), for he was sent to prophesy to many. It was bitter in his belly, but sweet to the taste, put for God's Word that reveals
many hard things to take, while at the same time revealing our Heavenly Father's sweet Salvation through The Gospel of His Son Jesus Christ.

Exactly... and why does that occur within the second woe?
The slaying of the 1/3 of mankind in the sixth trumpet is the second woe.

 

[archangel_300]

I really don't see how you could miss that period in Rev.20. The details are very strong as to that happening after the beast is defeated at Christ's coming, and He hands out rewards to His saints who rule with Him for a period of a "thousand years". It even links with Rev.11:18 events that happen after the 7th trumpet - 3rd woe period. So once again, the 3 woes our Lord Jesus gave serve to anchor the order even for His future "thousand years" reign on earth.

The idea that the earth is going to be totally gone is not actual, but metaphorical. God has said that He established the earth forever (Ps.78:69; Ps.104:5). When He speaks of "a new heavens and a new earth", even that He is speaking of the same earth that has always been. The difference is about what condition the earth's surface is in. With the flood of Noah's day He wiped all the inhabitants off it except Noah's family and what was on the ark. Likewise at the end of this world, this earth is going to be cleansed once again, but by His consuming fire this next time, burning man's works off it. And Rev.20:9 verifies that with the "camp of the saints" and "beloved city" existing on earth.

Ok so let me rehash my original gating issue with the millenium...
2 Peter is very clear that the entire universe will be DISSOLVED.

I hate to burst anyone's bubble here, but here are my reasons why I don't believe in a literal 1000 year future reign of Christ.

From reading Matthew 24 we can know that the next time we will see Christ is when the "Son of Man" returns like lightning from east to west... indicating his second return will be well known. Anybody claiming to be Christ BEFORE his return is COUNTERFEIT. This means no Christ before his glorious return.

Matthew 24:23 “Then if anyone says to you, ‘Look, here is the Christ!’ or ‘There!’ do not believe it. 24 For false christs and false prophets will rise and show great signs and wonders to deceive, if possible, even the elect. 25 See, I have told you beforehand. 26 “Therefore if they say to you, ‘Look, He is in the desert!’ do not go out; or ‘Look, He is in the inner rooms!’ do not believe it. 27 For as the lightning comes from the east and flashes to the west, so also will the coming of the Son of Man be.

Christ also returns as a thief... that is his return will be COMPLETELY unexpected.

Matthew 24:42 Watch therefore, for you do not know what hour[f] your Lord is coming. 43 But know this, that if the master of the house had known what hour the thief would come, he would have watched and not allowed his house to be broken into. 44 Therefore you also be ready, for the Son of Man is coming at an hour you do not expect.

Revelation 16:15
“Behold, I am coming as a thief. Blessed is he who watches, and keeps his garments, lest he walk naked and they see his shame.â€

So where is Christ going to reign for a 1000 years if the entire UNIVERSE IS DESTROYED?

2 Peter 3:10 But the day of the Lord will come as a thief in the night, in which the heavens will pass away with a great noise, and the elements will melt with fervent heat; both the earth and the works that are in it will be burned up.[c] 11 Therefore, since all these things will be dissolved, what manner of persons ought you to be in holy conduct and godliness, 12 looking for and hastening the coming of the day of God, because of which the heavens will be dissolved, being on fire, and the elements will melt with fervent heat?

 

[archangel_300]

Here is yet another reason why I don't believe in a future millenial reign...
This thing is really looking like it has no hope at this point.

According to millenium theory, the beast and the false prophet are judged in Rev 19 when Christ returns. Putting two and two together, this occurs after the two witnesses have been killed by the beast in Rev 11 because thats when Christ returns and the supposed "first resurrection" occurs. The saints are then raptured in Rev 20 for the millenial reign.

Well if that's the case after the two witnesses are killed the next thing that follows is the seventh trumpet and verse 15 states the Lord will reign FOREVER AND EVER. Shouldn't that say either 1000 YEARS or the Lord will reign for a LIMITED TIME or the Lord will reign until SATAN IS LOOSED ONCE AGAIN? Because according to millenium theory Christ won't reign forever and ever at this point. Also if you jump down to verse 18 it states it is the TIME OF THE DEAD TO BE JUDGED... Well in Rev 20 in the supposed millenial reign the UNSAVED DEAD DO NOT LIVE AGAIN UNTIL AFTER THE 1000 YEARS EXPIRE.
Verse 18 below is clearly referring to the time of the unsaved dead to be judged because it states "YOUR WRATH HAS COME".

Revelation 11:15 Then the seventh angel sounded: And there were loud voices in heaven, saying, “The kingdoms[f] of this world have become the kingdoms of our Lord and of His Christ, and He shall reign forever and ever!†16 And the twenty-four elders who sat before God on their thrones fell on their faces and worshiped God, 17 saying:
“ We give You thanks, O Lord God Almighty,
The One who is and who was and who is to come,[g]
Because You have taken Your great power and reigned.
18 The nations were angry, and Your wrath has come,
And the time of the dead, that they should be judged,
And that You should reward Your servants the prophets and the saints,
And those who fear Your name, small and great,
And should destroy those who destroy the earth.â€

Unfortunately there is no hope at this point for me to believe in a millenial reign of Christ.
It's a man made misinterpretation of the scriptures.

 

[veteran]

Good, I'm glad we are in agreement here. I'm also glad we agree the little horn is the beast of Revelation 13. So now we have to conclude then (unless scripture clearly proves otherwise) that the events that occur within each of these mentioned periods occur CONCURRENTLY. (Again unless scripture clearly proves otherwise). We cannot decouple the events from one another as they
are all referring to the same time period.

We can clearly conclude and agree that after 1260 days is finished Christ returns. This is very clear in scripture. So now the big question is when does the 1260 days start?

I believe the scripture is clear that 1260 started at the time of Christ's asension into heaven and the persecution of the church started. (Rev 12/Acts 1)

To summarize my entire theory here is what I see:
1. The persecution of the church through out the church age. (Rev 13/Daniel 7)
2. The church being spiritually fed and divinely protected throughout the church age. (Rev 12)
3. The church as God's witnesses to testify of the gospel to the world throughout the entire church age. (Rev 11)

To intepret the 1260 days that way, you'd have to reassign their length of time meaning to years, instead of days. And that still would not fit the on-going 2000> years of the Church Age. What's your basis for doing that? Ezekiel 4:6? That was 390 days=years for the house of Israel, and 40 days=years for Judah. That had to do with the scattering of the ten tribes among the Gentiles, and the Diaspora of the majority of Jews (Judah) being scattered also among the Gentiles. It was to serve as a probationary period. That's not the same timing as the 1260 days given in Daniel and Revelation.

How do you prove that the 1260 days is:
1. Even talking about the great tribulation period.. the main problem being Revelation 12.
2. that the start of the 1260 starts the great tribulation period

Rev.12 does not serve as a problem, because in Rev.12:7-17 we're given example of the same 42 months period of persecution upon the saints when the dragon brings a flood after them, after he is cast down to the earth. That doesn't link with Ezekiel bearing the sins for the house of Israel for 390 years, and the house of Judah for 40 years, because Rev.12:17 reveals the dragon seeking to persecute those who follow God's commandments and have the testimony of Jesus Christ. In other words, that shows a remnant of the woman in good standing with The Lord, even being protected from the dragon's flood he sends after them (i.e., lies of deception out of the dragon's mouth is what that flood represents). And if that isn't showing a time of great tribulation coming upon the saints on earth, especially when the dragon (devil) is cast out of the heavenly in person down to the earth with his angels, then I don't know what more it could be.

And there again, per Rev.13:5-7 about the 42 months the dragon is given power to overcome the saints, and with the three and one half years of Rev.12:14 AFTER the dragon and his angels are cast to the earth, I don't see how one could miss that is what starts the great tribulation.

Moreover, we also know per Rev.11 like I showed earlier, that a period of 42 months is given for the Gentiles to tread the court of the temple, and it's that period which immediately precedes Christ's coming on the 7th trumpet - 3rd woe period. Our Lord Jesus made it easy for us. The dragon is cast to this earth with his angels to work deception for a 42 month period; a temple exists for the Gentiles to tread its court for 42 months; God sends His two witnesses to prophesy against it for 1260 days, i.e. that same period, and after that 1260 days the two witnesses are killed by the "beast that ascendeth out of the bottomless pit", and then Christ's coming happens right after they are resurrected. Even that 'beast' who makes war upon God's two witnesses and kills them per Rev.11:7 is a direct link to that 42 months of Rev.13:5-7 of the dragon's working, and the Rev.12:7 forward period.

Using scripture please show me how the first half of the week represents one part of the 1260 days and show me how the second half represents the second part. What happens during the first half of the week? Please show me your theory here.

I think I've shown you plenty of direct Scripture evidence already about the last half (1260 days) of the tribulation timing, so any claim I've not done so really isn't going to work for you.

For the first part, I recommend referring to the seventy weeks prophecy in Dan.9, specifically the events involving the symbolic final "one week" in relation to the working of the "vile person" and the "league" he makes in Dan.11 to come to power. That's a multiple fulfillment prophecy, because it fit almost perfectly what Antiochus Epiphanes did around 165 B.C. in Jerusalem, even to stopping temple sacrifices and setting up idolatry (i.e., placing the abomination that maketh desolate per Dan.11:31). The final fulfillment of that prophecy will involve that dragon of Revelation 13, the "another beast", which is also that beast king of Rev.17:10-13.

I believe it's parenthetical, meaning a quick view of certain events when all is fulfilled. John is told to not write down what the seven thunders uttered because why? Which comes first, the lightning or the thunder? Lightning does. The sound of thunder happens aftwards. Recall our Lord related His coming like lightning shining from east to west in Matt.24. In verse 7, our Lord is giving us yet another hint as to the time of His coming and the end with the seventh angel sounding.
Then John is told to "take" the Book and eat it (urge to devour it in understanding), for he was sent to prophesy to many. It was bitter in his belly, but sweet to the taste, put for God's Word that reveals
many hard things to take, while at the same time revealing our Heavenly Father's sweet Salvation through The Gospel of His Son Jesus Christ.

Exactly... and why does that occur within the second woe?
The slaying of the 1/3 of mankind in the sixth trumpet is the second woe.

You mean, why is that Rev.10 chapter put there in between Rev.9 & 11 which have events of the 6th trumpet - 2nd woe period? If you properly read what KIND of events Rev.10 is speaking of, and remember the events given in Rev.11, then it's very easy to know that seventh angel sounding DOES NOT occur in the 6th trumpet 2nd woe period...

Rev 10:7
7 But in the days of the voice of the seventh angel, when he shall begin to sound, the mystery of God should be finished, as He hath declared to His servants the prophets.
(KJV)

That verse moves God's timeline forward to Christ's coming on the 7th trumpet, 7th vial per Rev.11 and Rev.16. What would it matter if our Lord Jesus had shown John that event all the way back in the first chapter of Revelation? Would it make a difference with the order of events He gave in Rev.11 about that 7th trumpet -3rd woe period? Not a bit.

 

[veteran]

Ok so let me rehash my original gating issue with the millenium...
2 Peter is very clear that the entire universe will be DISSOLVED.

Once you study deeper about God cleansing the earth again, you'll eventually discover it's about a cleasning of the earth's surface, and not a total destruction of the earth. In 2 Peter 3, he is giving previous examples of how God cleansed this earth before, and compares that to the one coming in our near future. In 2 Pet.3:10, the word "elements" in the Greek does NOT mean earthly elements of material matter. It means an orderly arrangement on earth, like earth ages.

Apostle Paul also gave that same kind of comparison here:

Heb 12:25-29
25 See that ye refuse not Him That speaketh. For if they escaped not who refused him that spake on earth, much more shall not we escape, if we turn away from Him That speaketh from heaven:
26 Whose voice then shook the earth: but now He hath promised, saying, "Yet once more I shake not the earth only, but also heaven."
27 And this word, "Yet once more", signifieth the removing of those things that are shaken, as of things that are made, that those things which cannot be shaken may remain.
28 Wherefore we receiving a kingdom which cannot be moved, let us have grace, whereby we may serve God acceptably with reverence and godly fear:
29 For our God is a consuming fire.
(KJV)

Our Heavenly Father is not going to totally destroy this earth, nor the universe, even as Hebrews 12 is showing there. Only those things which can be shaken, like man's works on the earth, will be consumed, while those things which cannot be shaken will remain. He has declared His Kingdom will be upon this earth, with His new Jerusalem coming DOWN out of Heaven to this earth. Romans 8 has more on this, but it's pretty deep. Note those Hebrews 12 verses speak of a previous time when God shook this earth, as the verse says, "Yet once more...".

I hate to burst anyone's bubble here, but here are my reasons why I don't believe in a literal 1000 year future reign of Christ.

From reading Matthew 24 we can know that the next time we will see Christ is when the "Son of Man" returns like lightning from east to west... indicating his second return will be well known. Anybody claiming to be Christ BEFORE his return is COUNTERFEIT. This means no Christ before his glorious return.

I have to correct you on that, for His Message in Matt.24 is that there WILL BE a COUNTERFEIT CHRIST coming prior to His return. In Matt.24:5 He is saying many will come in His Name saying, "I am Christ". But in Matt.24:24 in the Greek of "false Christs", He is saying a PARTICULAR 'pseudo Christ' is coming, and will actually have power to work great signs and miracles so poweful in deception, that if possible, it would deceive His own elect. The tense of the false messiah in Matt.24:23-26 is singular, not plural. Our Lord Jesus then showed the difference with how He comes.

Christ also returns as a thief... that is his return will be COMPLETELY unexpected.

Matthew 24:42 Watch therefore, for you do not know what hour[f] your Lord is coming. 43 But know this, that if the master of the house had known what hour the thief would come, he would have watched and not allowed his house to be broken into. 44 Therefore you also be ready, for the Son of Man is coming at an hour you do not expect.

I think you might want to study 1 Thess.5 more, and reconsider what our Lord meant with that warning to watch. In Rev.3:3 He said to some that if they didn't watch, His coming would be as a thief, and they wouldn't know in what hour He would come upon them.

Note in that Matt.24:42-44 example, our Lord showed that if the master of the house had known what hour the thief would come, he would have watched. That's actually a hint to stay on watch for the symbolic thief's coming, and by that, it would not take you by surprise. This is also why Apostle Paul said the following about those of Christ's servants that watch and know "the times and the seasons" all the way up to Christ's coming...

1Thes 5:4
4 But ye, brethren, are not in darkness, that that day should overtake you as a thief.
(KJV)

Simply then, those who aren't watching are in "darkness", and Christ's coming will take them by surprise as a thief breaking in their house at midnight. Our Lord Jesus was good to us, for He actually gave us an event to begin watching for His coming after three days and a half. It's when God's two witnesses are killed in Jerusalem with their dead bodies laying in the street for three and one half days.

I'll use this quote from Rev.16 you used also:

Revelation 16:15
“Behold, I am coming as a thief. Blessed is he who watches, and keeps his garments, lest he walk naked and they see his shame.â€

Clearly, those who don't watch will not keep their symbolic heavenly garments, and will instead walk naked in shame when He does come. That's about those whom Christ's coming as a thief takes by surprise, simply because they refused to stay on watch. Those are in darkness like Paul showed.

So where is Christ going to reign for a 1000 years if the entire UNIVERSE IS DESTROYED?

That's just it, the universe is NOT going to be destroyed, but only man's works burned off this earth. Rev.20:9 shows the "camp of the saints" and "beloved city" is ON THE EARTH. Don't you remember our Lord's Promise that the meek shall inherit the earth? Have you not read this?

Rev 5:9-10
9 And they sung a new song, saying, "Thou art worthy to take the book, and to open the seals thereof: for Thou wast slain, and hast redeemed us to God by Thy blood out of every kindred, and tongue, and people, and nation;
10 And hast made us unto our God kings and priests: and we shall reign on the earth.
(KJV)

So I don't know who you've been listening to on that idea that God is going to completely destroy this earth and the universe. Most likely it's coming from those who have not studied that event deeply enough.

 

[archangel_300]

To intepret the 1260 days that way, you'd have to reassign their length of time meaning to years, instead of days. And that still would not fit the on-going 2000> years of the Church Age. What's your basis for doing that? Ezekiel 4:6? That was 390 days=years for the house of Israel, and 40 days=years for Judah. That had to do with the scattering of the ten tribes among the Gentiles, and the Diaspora of the majority of Jews (Judah) being scattered also among the Gentiles. It was to serve as a probationary period. That's not the same timing as the 1260 days given in Daniel and Revelation.

No you don't need to do that. If the events that define the start and end can be clearly proven then it really doesn't matter what numerical value is given. It can be just a place holder. I don't doubt that there is some sort of spiritual meaning to 1260 but I'm not sure how to symbolically divide that number up.

Rev.12 does not serve as a problem, because in Rev.12:7-17 we're given example of the same 42 months period of persecution upon the saints when the dragon brings a flood after them, after he is cast down to the earth. That doesn't link with Ezekiel bearing the sins for the house of Israel for 390 years, and the house of Judah for 40 years, because Rev.12:17 reveals the dragon seeking to persecute those who follow God's commandments and have the testimony of Jesus Christ. In other words, that shows a remnant of the woman in good standing with The Lord, even being protected from the dragon's flood he sends after them (i.e., lies of deception out of the dragon's mouth is what that flood represents). And if that isn't showing a time of great tribulation coming upon the saints on earth, especially when the dragon (devil) is cast out of the heavenly in person down to the earth with his angels, then I don't know what more it could be.

And there again, per Rev.13:5-7 about the 42 months the dragon is given power to overcome the saints, and with the three and one half years of Rev.12:14 AFTER the dragon and his angels are cast to the earth, I don't see how one could miss that is what starts the great tribulation.

Moreover, we also know per Rev.11 like I showed earlier, that a period of 42 months is given for the Gentiles to tread the court of the temple, and it's that period which immediately precedes Christ's coming on the 7th trumpet - 3rd woe period. Our Lord Jesus made it easy for us. The dragon is cast to this earth with his angels to work deception for a 42 month period; a temple exists for the Gentiles to tread its court for 42 months; God sends His two witnesses to prophesy against it for 1260 days, i.e. that same period, and after that 1260 days the two witnesses are killed by the "beast that ascendeth out of the bottomless pit", and then Christ's coming happens right after they are resurrected. Even that 'beast' who makes war upon God's two witnesses and kills them per Rev.11:7 is a direct link to that 42 months of Rev.13:5-7 of the dragon's working, and the Rev.12:7 forward period.

Using scripture please show me how the first half of the week represents one part of the 1260 days and show me how the second half represents the second part. What happens during the first half of the week? Please show me your theory here.

I think I've shown you plenty of direct Scripture evidence already about the last half (1260 days) of the tribulation timing, so any claim I've not done so really isn't going to work for you.

For the first part, I recommend referring to the seventy weeks prophecy in Dan.9, specifically the events involving the symbolic final "one week" in relation to the working of the "vile person" and the "league" he makes in Dan.11 to come to power. That's a multiple fulfillment prophecy, because it fit almost perfectly what Antiochus Epiphanes did around 165 B.C. in Jerusalem, even to stopping temple sacrifices and setting up idolatry (i.e., placing the abomination that maketh desolate per Dan.11:31). The final fulfillment of that prophecy will involve that dragon of Revelation 13, the "another beast", which is also that beast king of Rev.17:10-13.

Thanks.
OK good, I have a better understanding now of your position.
Yes, Revelation 12 does pose a siginificant problem because there is clear evidence here this was the start of the church age not the start of the tribulation. I won't go into detail about this as I have stated the problems in the previous posts... but lets move forward as I want to get a clearer understanding of your position here.

So your position is the following (please make corrections if I am wrong):
1. Dragon is cast down out of heaven and this starts the great tribulation period...
Satan persecutes the woman for 3.5 literal years while she is spiritually fed and divinely protected (1st half tribulation) Satan spreads false gospels and lies during this period.
2. The two witnesses prophesy 3.5 literal years in Jerusalem (2nd half tribulation)
3. At the end of this 7 year period the beast attacks the two witnesses, they die for 3.5 days and then Christ returns.

With regards to the "week" mentioned in Daniel.
1st half week of Daniel represents the time up until 165 BC
2nd half week of Daniel represents the great tribulation period.

You mean, why is that Rev.10 chapter put there in between Rev.9 & 11 which have events of the 6th trumpet - 2nd woe period? If you properly read what KIND of events Rev.10 is speaking of, and remember the events given in Rev.11, then it's very easy to know that seventh angel sounding DOES NOT occur in the 6th trumpet 2nd woe period...

Rev 10:7
7 But in the days of the voice of the seventh angel, when he shall begin to sound, the mystery of God should be finished, as He hath declared to His servants the prophets.
(KJV)

That verse moves God's timeline forward to Christ's coming on the 7th trumpet, 7th vial per Rev.11 and Rev.16. What would it matter if our Lord Jesus had shown John that event all the way back in the first chapter of Revelation? Would it make a difference with the order of events He gave in Rev.11 about that 7th trumpet -3rd woe period? Not a bit.

Right, but what I'm trying to say is that it almost appears that God is telling us that salvation continues to exist right up till the end. I suspect that the 6th trumpet / second woe really is when the third of mankind (believers) symbolically perish. I think this is linked with when the two witnesses are killed. But that's my opinion. This odd break in the trumpets almost seems to suggest that yes even though things may get very bad and ugly during the great tribulation period and it will appear the gospel has lost its power, the chance for salvation still exists right up until the moment Christ returns.

 

[archangel_300]

Rev.12 does not serve as a problem, because in Rev.12:7-17 we're given example of the same 42 months period of persecution upon the saints when the dragon brings a flood after them, after he is cast down to the earth. That doesn't link with Ezekiel bearing the sins for the house of Israel for 390 years, and the house of Judah for 40 years, because Rev.12:17 reveals the dragon seeking to persecute those who follow God's commandments and have the testimony of Jesus Christ. In other words, that shows a remnant of the woman in good standing with The Lord, even being protected from the dragon's flood he sends after them (i.e., lies of deception out of the dragon's mouth is what that flood represents). And if that isn't showing a time of great tribulation coming upon the saints on earth, especially when the dragon (devil) is cast out of the heavenly in person down to the earth with his angels, then I don't know what more it could be.

And there again, per Rev.13:5-7 about the 42 months the dragon is given power to overcome the saints, and with the three and one half years of Rev.12:14 AFTER the dragon and his angels are cast to the earth, I don't see how one could miss that is what starts the great tribulation.

Check mate, your doctrine is in danger.
Satan gets cast out at the cross and Satan gets cast out again right before the great tribulation?
Notice the surrounding context of what is being stated here.

John 12:27 “Now My soul is troubled, and what shall I say? ‘Father, save Me from this hour’? But for this purpose I came to this hour. 28 Father, glorify Your name.â€
Then a voice came from heaven, saying, “I have both glorified it and will glorify it again.â€
29 Therefore the people who stood by and heard it said that it had thundered. Others said, “An angel has spoken to Him.†30 Jesus answered and said, “This voice did not come because of Me, but for your sake. 31 Now is the judgment of this world; NOW THE RULER OF THIS WORLD WILL BE CAST OUT. 32 And I, if I am lifted up from the earth, will draw all peoples to Myself.†33 This He said, signifying by what death He would die.

 

[veteran]

Thanks.
OK good, I have a better understanding now of your position.
Yes, Revelation 12 does pose a siginificant problem because there is clear evidence here this was the start of the church age not the start of the tribulation. I won't go into detail about this as I have stated the problems in the previous posts... but lets move forward as I want to get a clearer understanding of your position here.

I still don't see any Scripture support for treating Rev.12 that way, especially since from verse 6 to the end gives the same period of time Daniel and the rest of Revelation does about a time of persecution of the saints by the dragon.

So your position is the following (please make corrections if I am wrong):
1. Dragon is cast down out of heaven and this starts the great tribulation period...
Satan persecutes the woman for 3.5 literal years while she is spiritually fed and divinely protected (1st half tribulation) Satan spreads false gospels and lies during this period.
2. The two witnesses prophesy 3.5 literal years in Jerusalem (2nd half tribulation)
3. At the end of this 7 year period the beast attacks the two witnesses, they die for 3.5 days and then Christ returns.

1. No, the dragon is not cast down to the earth until the midpoint at the earliest. Compare the events of the 5th trumpet with the 6th trumpet. The locust army is shown starting their working of deception on the 5th trumpet. But with the 6th trumpet, the symbolic border Euphrates between Satan's host and God's people is fully opened up, and links with the dragon being cast to the earth with his angels per Rev.12:7-9. So 5th trumpet events could represent the first half.

The flood out of the dragon's mouth represents lies of deception. The deceptions actually begins on the 5th trumpet with the locust army. But the height of the flood is once the dragon is cast down. It's linked with the time of the waters of Noah's flood. The height of the waters of the flood lasted 150 days per Genesis. Per the solar calendar reckoning, that's equal to a period of "five months". That's why Rev.12 has that flood metaphor, with the earth swallowing up the flood the dragon sends after the woman. It means the period of deception of lies is first, the war is later.

With regards to the "week" mentioned in Daniel.
1st half week of Daniel represents the time up until 165 BC
2nd half week of Daniel represents the great tribulation period.

Not quite, what Antiochus did in 165 B.C. only represents a shadow or type of the abomination of desolation prophecy. It was a pattern to help us rightly understand the Dan.9-12 events of the end of this world. This is why our Lord Jesus mentioned in Matt.24 the "abomination of desolation" prophecy still coming around 200 years after Antiochus had already been dead and gone.

Our Lord Jesus in Matt.24 and linked the term "great tribulation" with the greatest time of persecution of the saints, which is going to be the time of "Peace and safety" Paul mentioned in 1 Thess.5. It's the last half. Many are looking for a false one who makes a peace pact ("league" of Dan.11:23) for 7 years, and in the middle of it ends the daily sacrifice and sets up the abomination in the temple. The setting up of that abominable thing is what the end of Rev.13 is about with the setting of an image of the beast for all to bow in worship to.

Right, but what I'm trying to say is that it almost appears that God is telling us that salvation continues to exist right up till the end. I suspect that the 6th trumpet / second woe really is when the third of mankind (believers) symbolically perish. I think this is linked with when the two witnesses are killed. But that's my opinion. This odd break in the trumpets almost seems to suggest that yes even though things may get very bad and ugly during the great tribulation period and it will appear the gospel has lost its power, the chance for salvation still exists right up until the moment Christ returns.

I have no doubt that some will come to Christ and believe during the tribulation. When false messiah kills God's two witnesses, it's going to make quite a few of the deceived doubt that he is God. The parenthetical 10th chapter given in between the woes is not something new. God does that kind of thing often in the Books of His OT prophets. His timelines often move forward and back, which means one has to pay attention to the actual events, and not go into some progressive order mode. In Zech.9:9 is Christ's first coming, but Zech.9:10 is Christ's second coming, a huge gap of time takes place just between those two verses.

 

[veteran]

Here is yet another reason why I don't believe in a future millenial reign...
This thing is really looking like it has no hope at this point.

According to millenium theory, the beast and the false prophet are judged in Rev 19 when Christ returns. Putting two and two together, this occurs after the two witnesses have been killed by the beast in Rev 11 because thats when Christ returns and the supposed "first resurrection" occurs. The saints are then raptured in Rev 20 for the millenial reign.

I guess I missed this post, so I'll address it now.

Well if that's the case after the two witnesses are killed the next thing that follows is the seventh trumpet and verse 15 states the Lord will reign FOREVER AND EVER. Shouldn't that say either 1000 YEARS or the Lord will reign for a LIMITED TIME or the Lord will reign until SATAN IS LOOSED ONCE AGAIN? Because according to millenium theory Christ won't reign forever and ever at this point. Also if you jump down to verse 18 it states it is the TIME OF THE DEAD TO BE JUDGED... Well in Rev 20 in the supposed millenial reign the UNSAVED DEAD DO NOT LIVE AGAIN UNTIL AFTER THE 1000 YEARS EXPIRE.
Verse 18 below is clearly referring to the time of the unsaved dead to be judged because it states "YOUR WRATH HAS COME".

Revelation 11:15 Then the seventh angel sounded: And there were loud voices in heaven, saying, “The kingdoms[f] of this world have become the kingdoms of our Lord and of His Christ, and He shall reign forever and ever!†16 And the twenty-four elders who sat before God on their thrones fell on their faces and worshiped God, 17 saying:
“ We give You thanks, O Lord God Almighty,
The One who is and who was and who is to come,[g]
Because You have taken Your great power and reigned.
18 The nations were angry, and Your wrath has come,
And the time of the dead, that they should be judged,
And that You should reward Your servants the prophets and the saints,
And those who fear Your name, small and great,
And should destroy those who destroy the earth.â€

Unfortunately there is no hope at this point for me to believe in a millenial reign of Christ.
It's a man made misinterpretation of the scriptures.

There's really no problem with what the end of Rev.11 is showing, because that's a jump forward in time to Christ's thousand years reign, and then afterwards. It's a condensing of info like the Rev.12:1-5 verses are. Look at 1 Cor.15:23-28 and you'll see the same condensed type of prophecy from Christ's second coming all the way to God's eternity.

Christ's Milennial reign is when our Lord Jesus begins His eternal reign, on earth. It is not a temporary reign, because Rev.20 shows that Satan will not be able to destroy the "camp of the saints" and "beloved city" on earth. Zechariah 14 reveals the nations that are left after Christ's second coming are to come up to the beloved city and worship The KING, and those nations which refuse will have no rain upon their lands. All that is connected with the time of Ezekiel's temple. But after the thousand years, there won't be need for a temple (Rev.21:22), not in God's eternity of the new heavens and a new earth.

Christ's future thousand years reign is a time when He will rule over His enemies. That's what Rev.3:9 is showing also, when those of the "synagogue of Satan" bow in worship at the feet of His elect (because Christ will be standing next to His elect). Ezekiel 44 reveals the Levites that fell away when Israel fell away will serve temple duties in shame, because they won't be allowed to approach Christ personally. Only Christ's elect will approach Him and serve Him at His table. Those are called the Zadok, which means the Just.

Part of God's Eden is going to return to this earth in that time with Ezekiel's temple layout, for that's what the River of waters in Ezekiel 47 is about, which is to have many trees on either side of it bearing the many fruits. As written there, whever the waters of that River flows, it will heal the waters on the earth. But that time will not be a full return of God's Eden, because Satan and his followers will still exist during that thousand years. All the deceived will be in a place of separation among the wicked our Lord called the "outer darkness"; it means outside the gates of the Holy City (Matt.22:13; also see Rev.22:14-15).

So you're missing a whole lot by not believing that "thousand years" reign by Christ and His elect isn't real.

 

[veteran]

Check mate, your doctrine is in danger.
Satan gets cast out at the cross and Satan gets cast out again right before the great tribulation?
Notice the surrounding context of what is being stated here.

John 12:27 “Now My soul is troubled, and what shall I say? ‘Father, save Me from this hour’? But for this purpose I came to this hour. 28 Father, glorify Your name.â€
Then a voice came from heaven, saying, “I have both glorified it and will glorify it again.â€
29 Therefore the people who stood by and heard it said that it had thundered. Others said, “An angel has spoken to Him.†30 Jesus answered and said, “This voice did not come because of Me, but for your sake. 31 Now is the judgment of this world; NOW THE RULER OF THIS WORLD WILL BE CAST OUT. 32 And I, if I am lifted up from the earth, will draw all peoples to Myself.†33 This He said, signifying by what death He would die.

I guess you forget this one too then...

John 14:30
30 Hereafter I will not talk much with you: for the prince of this world cometh, and hath nothing in Me.
(KJV)

And you know, that aligns perfectly with the warnings our Lord Jesus and His Apostles gave about a false one coming on this earth in the last days to work great signs and miracles to deceive the majority of the world. Did you notice our Lord Jesus said that AFTER He had said John 12:31? When He said He would not talk with them much "hereafter", He meant after His crucifixion and resurrection to The Father.

That time of the prince of this world coming is about the end of this world, not 2000 years ago. The reason is because our Lord Jesus gave us the signs of a false messiah coming at the very end, and one would have to throw all those endtime prophecies in Daniel, Revelation, Matt.24, Mark 13, Luke 17, 21, etc., out the window. Is that what you intend to do in favor of the doctrines of men called Preterism? It's men's doctrines of Preterism that tries either move Christ's thousand years reign to our present time, or do away with it altogether. Some Preterist even believe the lie that Christ's second coming happened back around 70 A.D. with the destruction of the 2nd temple.

 

[archangel_300]

I still don't see any Scripture support for treating Rev.12 that way, especially since from verse 6 to the end gives the same period of time Daniel and the rest of Revelation does about a time of persecution of the saints by the dragon.

Revelation 12 has to be interpreted as the church age.
Let's go through this again:
We know for certain the child is Christ as he rules all nations with a rod of iron. (Revelation 19:15)
Notice what happens after the child is caught up to God and His throne... that is after his asension in the book of Acts.

Revelation 12:4 His tail drew a third of the stars of heaven and threw them to the earth. And the dragon stood before the woman who was ready to give birth, to devour her Child as soon as it was born. 5 She bore a male Child who was to rule all nations with a rod of iron. And her Child was caught up to God and His throne. 6 THEN the woman fled into the wilderness, where she has a place prepared by God, that they should feed her there one thousand two hundred and sixty days.

The Bible DOES NOT say "then we jump all the way to the end of time at the mid point of the tribulation period" In sequential order we see the child ascend to God and his throne THEN the woman flees.
Revelation 12 has NOTHING to do with the great tribulation period. The great tribulation period ended in Revelation 11 with the sounding of the seventh trumpet and now the cycle of telling the story of God's plan starting from the New Testament period going forth is retold again.

What happens when the woman flees?

Revelation 12:13 Now when the dragon saw that he had been cast to the earth, he persecuted the woman who gave birth to the male Child. 14 But the woman was given two wings of a great eagle, that she might fly into the wilderness to her place, where she is nourished for a time and times and half a time, from the presence of the serpent.

When was the dragon cast out?

John 12:31
Now is the judgment of this world; now the ruler of this world will be cast out.

The dragon was cast out during the time of Jesus Christ.

So we see that after Christ ascends to heaven the dragon begins his persecution of the woman and those who KEEP THE TESTIMONY OF JESUS CHRIST. That is the dragon begins his pursuit of persecution to outwardly attack the new testament church. That is until the church age ends at which point he is able to destroy the testimony resulting in the gospels power being greatly dimished.

So your position is the following (please make corrections if I am wrong):
1. Dragon is cast down out of heaven and this starts the great tribulation period...
Satan persecutes the woman for 3.5 literal years while she is spiritually fed and divinely protected (1st half tribulation) Satan spreads false gospels and lies during this period.
2. The two witnesses prophesy 3.5 literal years in Jerusalem (2nd half tribulation)
3. At the end of this 7 year period the beast attacks the two witnesses, they die for 3.5 days and then Christ returns.

1. No, the dragon is not cast down to the earth until the midpoint at the earliest. Compare the events of the 5th trumpet with the 6th trumpet. The locust army is shown starting their working of deception on the 5th trumpet. But with the 6th trumpet, the symbolic border Euphrates between Satan's host and God's people is fully opened up, and links with the dragon being cast to the earth with his angels per Rev.12:7-9. So 5th trumpet events could represent the first half.

The flood out of the dragon's mouth represents lies of deception. The deceptions actually begins on the 5th trumpet with the locust army. But the height of the flood is once the dragon is cast down. It's linked with the time of the waters of Noah's flood. The height of the waters of the flood lasted 150 days per Genesis. Per the solar calendar reckoning, that's equal to a period of "five months". That's why Rev.12 has that flood metaphor, with the earth swallowing up the flood the dragon sends after the woman. It means the period of deception of lies is first, the war is later.

Now you have left me confused.
If the dragon is cast out during the mid point of the tribulation period, is the tribulation period 7 years or is it 3.5 years? How do you arrive at a 7 year tribulation period and if it is 7 years what happens during the first 3.5 years?

I agree that the flood of the dragon's mouth represent lies of deception. But that means that if you link the dragons deception to the locusts / 5th trumpet this means that the dragon gets cast out during the FIRST HALF of the tribulation period... reason being is because the 5th trumpet precedes the two witnesses. Does the dragon get cast out during the first half or the second half?

 

[archangel_300]

I guess you forget this one too then...

John 14:30
30 Hereafter I will not talk much with you: for the prince of this world cometh, and hath nothing in Me.
(KJV)

And you know, that aligns perfectly with the warnings our Lord Jesus and His Apostles gave about a false one coming on this earth in the last days to work great signs and miracles to deceive the majority of the world. Did you notice our Lord Jesus said that AFTER He had said John 12:31? When He said He would not talk with them much "hereafter", He meant after His crucifixion and resurrection to The Father.

That time of the prince of this world coming is about the end of this world, not 2000 years ago. The reason is because our Lord Jesus gave us the signs of a false messiah coming at the very end, and one would have to throw all those endtime prophecies in Daniel, Revelation, Matt.24, Mark 13, Luke 17, 21, etc., out the window. Is that what you intend to do in favor of the doctrines of men called Preterism? It's men's doctrines of Preterism that tries either move Christ's thousand years reign to our present time, or do away with it altogether. Some Preterist even believe the lie that Christ's second coming happened back around 70 A.D. with the destruction of the 2nd temple.

Again stating John 14:30 is referring to the great tribulation is a very big stretch.
I think it just means Satan is cast out of heaven but now he's coming on this earth... just like Revelation 12 states what would happen after he is cast out of heaven. He now comes to this earth to destroy. Or it can mean Satan is coming to try to thwart the crucifixion of Jesus Christ. The prince of this world coming does not mean he is allowed entrance into heaven once again.

The question still remains does Satan get cast out twice? The verse I quoted clearly indicates he was cast out during the time of Christ. This must refer to revelation 12 when Satan is cast out and the power of Christ's salvation plan comes in full effect.

Revelation 12:9 So the great dragon was cast out, that serpent of old, called the Devil and Satan, who deceives the whole world; he was cast to the earth, and his angels were cast out with him.
10 Then I heard a loud voice saying in heaven, “Now salvation, and strength, and the kingdom of our God, and the power of His Christ have come, for the accuser of our brethren, who accused them before our God day and night, has been cast down. 11 And they overcame him by the blood of the Lamb and by the word of their testimony, and they did not love their lives to the death.

 

[archangel_300]

There's really no problem with what the end of Rev.11 is showing, because that's a jump forward in time to Christ's thousand years reign, and then afterwards. It's a condensing of info like the Rev.12:1-5 verses are. Look at 1 Cor.15:23-28 and you'll see the same condensed type of prophecy from Christ's second coming all the way to God's eternity.

Christ's Milennial reign is when our Lord Jesus begins His eternal reign, on earth. It is not a temporary reign, because Rev.20 shows that Satan will not be able to destroy the "camp of the saints" and "beloved city" on earth. Zechariah 14 reveals the nations that are left after Christ's second coming are to come up to the beloved city and worship The KING, and those nations which refuse will have no rain upon their lands. All that is connected with the time of Ezekiel's temple. But after the thousand years, there won't be need for a temple (Rev.21:22), not in God's eternity of the new heavens and a new earth.

Christ's future thousand years reign is a time when He will rule over His enemies. That's what Rev.3:9 is showing also, when those of the "synagogue of Satan" bow in worship at the feet of His elect (because Christ will be standing next to His elect). Ezekiel 44 reveals the Levites that fell away when Israel fell away will serve temple duties in shame, because they won't be allowed to approach Christ personally. Only Christ's elect will approach Him and serve Him at His table. Those are called the Zadok, which means the Just.

Part of God's Eden is going to return to this earth in that time with Ezekiel's temple layout, for that's what the River of waters in Ezekiel 47 is about, which is to have many trees on either side of it bearing the many fruits. As written there, whever the waters of that River flows, it will heal the waters on the earth. But that time will not be a full return of God's Eden, because Satan and his followers will still exist during that thousand years. All the deceived will be in a place of separation among the wicked our Lord called the "outer darkness"; it means outside the gates of the Holy City (Matt.22:13; also see Rev.22:14-15).

So you're missing a whole lot by not believing that "thousand years" reign by Christ and His elect isn't real.

Ok so the millenium theory is the following:
1. Satan/the beast is judged in Revelation 19
2. Christ reigns 1000 years
3. Satan escapes hell after 1000 years and is judged again in Revelation 20

You have left me confused...
Again let's go back to Revelation 11...

Revelation 11:15 Then the seventh angel sounded: And there were loud voices in heaven, saying, “The kingdoms[f] of this world have become the kingdoms of our Lord and of His Christ, and He shall reign forever and ever!†16 And the twenty-four elders who sat before God on their thrones fell on their faces and worshiped God, 17 saying:
“ We give You thanks, O Lord God Almighty,
The One who is and who was and who is to come,[g]
Because You have taken Your great power and reigned.
18 The nations were angry, and Your wrath has come,
And the time of the dead, that they should be judged,
And that You should reward Your servants the prophets and the saints,
And those who fear Your name, small and great,
And should destroy those who destroy the earth.â€


At the seventh trumpet... (Christ begins his 1000 year reign) the dead are raised for judgment as God's wrath has come. This flies contrary to what happens during the millenium... the DEAD DO NOT LIVE AGAIN... Which one is it? Do the dead come back to life to be judged or do they remain dead?

Revelation 20:4 And I saw thrones, and they sat on them, and judgment was committed to them. Then I saw the souls of those who had been beheaded for their witness to Jesus and for the word of God, who had not worshiped the beast or his image, and had not received his mark on their foreheads or on their hands. And they lived and reigned with Christ for a[a] thousand years. 5 But the rest of the dead did not live again until the thousand years were finished.

And then in Revelation 20 AFTER the 1000 years are finished the dead are judged again?

Revelation 20:11 Then I saw a great white throne and Him who sat on it, from whose face the earth and the heaven fled away. And there was found no place for them. 12 And I saw the dead, small and great, standing before God,[c] and books were opened. And another book was opened, which is the Book of Life. And the dead were judged according to their works, by the things which were written in the books. 13 The sea gave up the dead who were in it, and Death and Hades delivered up the dead who were in them. And they were judged, each one according to his works. 14 Then Death and Hades were cast into the lake of fire. This is the second death.[d] 15 And anyone not found written in the Book of Life was cast into the lake of fire.