Hey You Pre-Tribbers!!!

[Shilohsfoal]

I have to agree. Showing himself to be God doesn't make him God. So it's merely his claim.

Well he wouldnt be showing himself to be God by sitting in a temple made with hands because God doesnt dwell in temples made with hands,thus saith the prophet.

 

[glorydaz]

I have to agree. Showing himself to be God doesn't make him God. So it's merely his claim.

Well he wouldnt be showing himself to be God by sitting in a temple made with hands because God doesnt dwell in temples made with hands,thus saith the prophet.

I see your point....he will have to appear to be God by some spectacular (miraculous) event. Then he'll be invited to the temple by Jews who are still awaiting the coming of the Messiah. There he sets himself up as God. Yes, that's much more Satan's style.

Of course, the worldly people don't read the prophets, and Israel showing signs of restoring the temple has to cause one to consider. That will end up with a holy war because the Dome of the Rock is on the same spot. I'm not positive about that, but I think it's the DOR. Then all nations will converge on Israel. Sure sounds familiar. The spiritual aspect, with the false prophet leading the false church. I'm not sure how all that relates. There are so many ideas floating around out there, and so many possibilities, I just refuse to set my sights on any particular interpretation about future events. I think all will be revealed when we need to know. According to Corrie ten Boom, her father never gave her the ticket for the train until she was ready to get on board. We'll have the strength we need when we need it...not a moment before. We can trust in His mercy and grace.

 

[glorydaz]

I have to agree. Showing himself to be God doesn't make him God. So it's merely his claim.

Well he wouldnt be showing himself to be God by sitting in a temple made with hands because God doesnt dwell in temples made with hands,thus saith the prophet.

Hey, I just noticed you live in North Carolina. I have a sister there in Charlotte. She loves it but she misses her home here in the Willamette Valley.

What do you think about the temple? If you've said, I don't remember, sorry.

 

[n2thelight]

I have to agree. Showing himself to be God doesn't make him God. So it's merely his claim.

Well he wouldnt be showing himself to be God by sitting in a temple made with hands because God doesnt dwell in temples made with hands,thus saith the prophet.

That's not all he will do,to deceive you into thinking he is God....

Revelation 13:13 "And he doeth great wonders, so that he maketh fire come down from heaven on the earth in the sight of men."

Revelation 13:14 "And deceiveth them that dwell on the earth by the means of those miracles which he had power to do in the sight of the beast; saying to them that dwell on the earth, that they should make an image to the beast, which had the wound by a sword, and did live."

This is the whole object for the great tribulation. "DECEPTION"! Satan is going to make an image of this "one world system" [religious beast] and breath life into system. Their will be something symbolic created within the system that will cause the whole world to bow. This reminds me of the "image" created in Babylon's "one world government" under king Nebuchadnezzar, in Daniel 3. At that time there were only three that would not bow to the image.

If you are not sealed you shall be deceived,period....

 

[glorydaz]

That's not all he will do,to deceive you into thinking he is God....

Revelation 13:13 "And he doeth great wonders, so that he maketh fire come down from heaven on the earth in the sight of men."

Revelation 13:14 "And deceiveth them that dwell on the earth by the means of those miracles which he had power to do in the sight of the beast; saying to them that dwell on the earth, that they should make an image to the beast, which had the wound by a sword, and did live."

This is the whole object for the great tribulation. "DECEPTION"! Satan is going to make an image of this "one world system" [religious beast] and breath life into system. Their will be something symbolic created within the system that will cause the whole world to bow. This reminds me of the "image" created in Babylon's "one world government" under king Nebuchadnezzar, in Daniel 3. At that time there were only three that would not bow to the image.

If you are not sealed you shall be deceived,period....

Correct...just look at the power satan will have. This is why many believe he is bound now and will be loosed for a "short time" during the tribulation..."great wonders", fire coming down from heaven, and other "miracles". :yes

 

[Shilohsfoal]

That's not all he will do,to deceive you into thinking he is God....

Revelation 13:13 "And he doeth great wonders, so that he maketh fire come down from heaven on the earth in the sight of men."

Revelation 13:14 "And deceiveth them that dwell on the earth by the means of those miracles which he had power to do in the sight of the beast; saying to them that dwell on the earth, that they should make an image to the beast, which had the wound by a sword, and did live."
This is the whole object for the great tribulation. "DECEPTION"! Satan is going to make an image of this "one world system" [religious beast] and breath life into system. Their will be something symbolic created within the system that will cause the whole world to bow. This reminds me of the "image" created in Babylon's "one world government" under king Nebuchadnezzar, in Daniel 3. At that time there were only three that would not bow to the image.

If you are not sealed you shall be deceived,period....

I think you may be the first that I have seen on this board beside myself that has noticed Daniel's king of the north is the second beast of Rev.Have you noticed that the abomination of desolation is the mark of the beast yet?

I hope you dont stop your studies there.If you look close enough to the scriptures ,you may notice who this second beast is as well as the first.Just remember.The king of the north go to Jerusalem.He makes an image to the first beast so the first beast is already there when he arrives. :yes

 

[Shilohsfoal]

That's not all he will do,to deceive you into thinking he is God....

Revelation 13:13 "And he doeth great wonders, so that he maketh fire come down from heaven on the earth in the sight of men."

Revelation 13:14 "And deceiveth them that dwell on the earth by the means of those miracles which he had power to do in the sight of the beast; saying to them that dwell on the earth, that they should make an image to the beast, which had the wound by a sword, and did live."

This is the whole object for the great tribulation. "DECEPTION"! Satan is going to make an image of this "one world system" [religious beast] and breath life into system. Their will be something symbolic created within the system that will cause the whole world to bow. This reminds me of the "image" created in Babylon's "one world government" under king Nebuchadnezzar, in Daniel 3. At that time there were only three that would not bow to the image.

If you are not sealed you shall be deceived,period....

Correct...just look at the power satan will have. This is why many believe he is bound now and will be loosed for a "short time" during the tribulation..."great wonders", fire coming down from heaven, and other "miracles". :yes

Shock and awe.

 

[Shilohsfoal]

I have to agree. Showing himself to be God doesn't make him God. So it's merely his claim.

Well he wouldnt be showing himself to be God by sitting in a temple made with hands because God doesnt dwell in temples made with hands,thus saith the prophet.

Hey, I just noticed you live in North Carolina. I have a sister there in Charlotte. She loves it but she misses her home here in the Willamette Valley.

What do you think about the temple? If you've said, I don't remember, sorry.

Daniel 11;31
And arms shall stand on his part,and they shall pollute the sanctuary of stregth,and shall take away the daily sacrifice,and they shall place the abomination of desolation.

This same army(arms)that stand of his part is that which makes fire come down out of heaven in the sight of the beast.The sanctuary of strength is Jerusalem itself.But not only will this army make fire come down out of heaven ,it will also place the abomination of desolation.This is the discription of the abomination that causeth desolation in the book of rev.
Rev 13;16
And he causeth all both small and great,rich and por,free and bond,to recieve a mark in thier right hand,or in thier foreheads.


Ive not read of another temple being built in Jerusalem but I have read where the king of the north shall move his embassy to Jerusalem.This is already in the talks today.

 

[archangel_300]

I think you may be the first that I have seen on this board beside myself that has noticed Daniel's king of the north is the second beast of Rev.Have you noticed that the abomination of desolation is the mark of the beast yet?

I hope you dont stop your studies there.If you look close enough to the scriptures ,you may notice who this second beast is as well as the first.Just remember.The king of the north go to Jerusalem.He makes an image to the first beast so the first beast is already there when he arrives. :yes

Ok, so this is something I'd like to know more about... the abomination of desolation.
How do you arrive that the abomination of desolation is the mark of the beast?
Please support this with scripture.

On one hand I could see the abomination of desolation being the mark of the beast.

But on the other hand I can also see the abomination of desolation being Satan along with his counterfeit miracles and signs.

But yet even another option is as veteran stated if the word Christs is not meant to be plural and the text of scripture is supposed to say false "Christ" singular, then it would almost appear that the abomination of desolation is the one man anti christ messiah.

To support the two conclusions I have come to... the quote "Then if anyone says to you" seems to be coupled with the first verse "So when you see the abomination of desolation"

Mark 13:14 “So when you see the ‘abomination of desolation,’[d] spoken of by Daniel the prophet,[e] standing where it ought not†(let the reader understand), “then let those who are in Judea flee to the mountains. 15 Let him who is on the housetop not go down into the house, nor enter to take anything out of his house. 16 And let him who is in the field not go back to get his clothes. 17 But woe to those who are pregnant and to those who are nursing babies in those days! 18 And pray that your flight may not be in winter. 19 For in those days there will be tribulation, such as has not been since the beginning of the creation which God created until this time, nor ever shall be. 20 And unless the Lord had shortened those days, no flesh would be saved; but for the elect’s sake, whom He chose, He shortened the days.
21 “Then if anyone says to you, ‘Look, here is the Christ!’ or, ‘Look, He is there!’ do not believe it. 22 For false christs and false prophets will rise and show signs and wonders to deceive, if possible, even the elect. 23 But take heed; see, I have told you all things beforehand.

 

[veteran]

Veteran, you're a godsend!

By far the most educated in the Word of anyone I have seen on this site. I have two questions, are you pre-trib? And do you think that the "he" that will be taken away is the Holy Spirit with the church at the rapture? And if so, without the Holy Spirit on the earth, how will men be saved?

I definitely only see a post-tribulational coming of our Lord Jesus and our gathering to Him. I believe the pre-trib ideas to be a test upon many believers, to see who they will listen to, because our Heavenly Father warned about that doctrine in the prophecy of Ezekiel 13, and with the idea of two in the field (world) with one being taken and the other left (Luke 17). If only one would read our Lord's answer in the very last verse of Luke 17 and compare that with what He showed in Matt.24:28, they might realize that the first one taken is about being deceived. Understanding our Lord's warnings of a coming pseudo Christ compounds that particular warning about being 'taken'. Our Lord is also pointing to Isaiah 28 with that.

The idea Paul was speaking of he that withholdeth until he be taken out of the way refers to the prophecy in Daniel 10:21 & 12:1. The idea of withholding in Dan.10 is about operations between heavenly powers. The angel was withheld by the symbolic prince of the kingdom of Persia (the devil) for 21 days but was helped by the Archangel Michael. In Dan.10:21 the angel says there is none that holdeth in those matters with him except Michael. In Rev.12:7-9 with the war in heaven, Michael casts Satan and his angels down to the earth. That's meant for the last days, and links to Dan.12:1, a time when Michael will "stand up" (make a stand), and then a time of trouble begins on earth that has never been the likes before, i.e., the great tribulation. Thus the "he" of 2 Thess.2:7 is not about The Holy Spirit or the rapture, but about Michael's withholding the dragon and his angels in heaven until the time of their casting out. In the very next verse of 2 Thess.2:8, Paul then says, "And then shall that Wicked be revealed,...." Paul is compressing the events of the tribulation in those 2 Thess.2:8-12 verses.

 

[veteran]

Our Lord Jesus also gave us an important clue of how strong the deception by a false messiah is going to be.

Matt 24:21-26
21 For then shall be great tribulation, such as was not since the beginning of the world to this time, no, nor ever shall be.
22 And except those days should be shortened, there should no flesh be saved: but for the elect's sake those days shall be shortened.
23 Then if any man shall say unto you, "Lo, here is Christ, or there"; believe it not.
24 For there shall arise false Christs, and false prophets, and shall shew great signs and wonders; insomuch that, if it were possible, they shall deceive the very elect.
25 Behold, I have told you before.
26 Wherefore if they shall say unto you, "Behold, he is in the desert"; go not forth: behold, "he is in the secret chambers"; believe it not.
(KJV)

Consider how strong and realistic the deception by that false messiah would have to be in order to almost deceive Christ's own elect, those whom He has sealed with His Truth. What type of "great signs and wonders" would that false messiah have to show that would even tempt Christ's elect to believe that false one is Him?

If that false one's works of miracles is powerful enough to tempt Christ's elect servants that are sealed, imagine what temptation it will be for the deceived. That is actually showing just what type of tribulation it is going to be.

 

[faithtransforms]

Veteran, you're a godsend!

By far the most educated in the Word of anyone I have seen on this site. I have two questions, are you pre-trib? And do you think that the "he" that will be taken away is the Holy Spirit with the church at the rapture? And if so, without the Holy Spirit on the earth, how will men be saved?

I definitely only see a post-tribulational coming of our Lord Jesus and our gathering to Him. I believe the pre-trib ideas to be a test upon many believers, to see who they will listen to, because our Heavenly Father warned about that doctrine in the prophecy of Ezekiel 13, and with the idea of two in the field (world) with one being taken and the other left (Luke 17). If only one would read our Lord's answer in the very last verse of Luke 17 and compare that with what He showed in Matt.24:28, they might realize that the first one taken is about being deceived. Understanding our Lord's warnings of a coming pseudo Christ compounds that particular warning about being 'taken'. Our Lord is also pointing to Isaiah 28 with that.

The idea Paul was speaking of he that withholdeth until he be taken out of the way refers to the prophecy in Daniel 10:21 & 12:1. The idea of withholding in Dan.10 is about operations between heavenly powers. The angel was withheld by the symbolic prince of the kingdom of Persia (the devil) for 21 days but was helped by the Archangel Michael. In Dan.10:21 the angel says there is none that holdeth in those matters with him except Michael. In Rev.12:7-9 with the war in heaven, Michael casts Satan and his angels down to the earth. That's meant for the last days, and links to Dan.12:1, a time when Michael will "stand up" (make a stand), and then a time of trouble begins on earth that has never been the likes before, i.e., the great tribulation. Thus the "he" of 2 Thess.2:7 is not about The Holy Spirit or the rapture, but about Michael's withholding the dragon and his angels in heaven until the time of their casting out. In the very next verse of 2 Thess.2:8, Paul then says, "And then shall that Wicked be revealed,...." Paul is compressing the events of the tribulation in those 2 Thess.2:8-12 verses.

Thanks veteran! Wow, I think you are the first person I have met on this site that I believe I may be in 100% agreement with in terms of doctrine and scripture. One last thing, off topic, do you believe salvation can be lost? By going back to a life of sin and never repenting before you die, for example?

 

[faithtransforms]

Veteran, you're a godsend!

By far the most educated in the Word of anyone I have seen on this site. I have two questions, are you pre-trib? And do you think that the "he" that will be taken away is the Holy Spirit with the church at the rapture? And if so, without the Holy Spirit on the earth, how will men be saved?

I definitely only see a post-tribulational coming of our Lord Jesus and our gathering to Him. I believe the pre-trib ideas to be a test upon many believers, to see who they will listen to, because our Heavenly Father warned about that doctrine in the prophecy of Ezekiel 13, and with the idea of two in the field (world) with one being taken and the other left (Luke 17). If only one would read our Lord's answer in the very last verse of Luke 17 and compare that with what He showed in Matt.24:28, they might realize that the first one taken is about being deceived. Understanding our Lord's warnings of a coming pseudo Christ compounds that particular warning about being 'taken'. Our Lord is also pointing to Isaiah 28 with that.

The idea Paul was speaking of he that withholdeth until he be taken out of the way refers to the prophecy in Daniel 10:21 & 12:1. The idea of withholding in Dan.10 is about operations between heavenly powers. The angel was withheld by the symbolic prince of the kingdom of Persia (the devil) for 21 days but was helped by the Archangel Michael. In Dan.10:21 the angel says there is none that holdeth in those matters with him except Michael. In Rev.12:7-9 with the war in heaven, Michael casts Satan and his angels down to the earth. That's meant for the last days, and links to Dan.12:1, a time when Michael will "stand up" (make a stand), and then a time of trouble begins on earth that has never been the likes before, i.e., the great tribulation. Thus the "he" of 2 Thess.2:7 is not about The Holy Spirit or the rapture, but about Michael's withholding the dragon and his angels in heaven until the time of their casting out. In the very next verse of 2 Thess.2:8, Paul then says, "And then shall that Wicked be revealed,...." Paul is compressing the events of the tribulation in those 2 Thess.2:8-12 verses.

Thanks veteran! Wow, I think you are the first person I have met on this site that I believe I might be in 100% agreement with in terms of doctrine and scripture. Two things, off topic, do you believe salvation can be lost? By going back to a life of sin and never repenting before you die, for example? And, do you believe that there are legitimate sign gifts in operation today?

 

[veteran]

Thanks veteran! Wow, I think you are the first person I have met on this site that I believe I may be in 100% agreement with in terms of doctrine and scripture. One last thing, off topic, do you believe salvation can be lost? By going back to a life of sin and never repenting before you die, for example?

Please don't be too quick to agree with me; I'm sure there's some things we may not see eye-to-eye on. Yet I do believe that through proper Bible study, we should come to agree on many things.

I do believe some who once believed on Christ Jesus can lose their salvation by turning away from Him 'willingly', and instead follow the devil and his ways. But for those whom God 'chose', I don't believe that's possible, for God already owns His chosen elect that He put in His service, and moves according to His Will. The latter group would especially be like the Patriarchs, prophets, and Apostles, but I think also includes some He has sealed for the end of days. I'm talking about accountability especially with the first group, because someone who 'knows' Christ is The Son of God, but willingly turns to unbelief is like committing the unforgiveable sin. Once one 'knows', and has been given proof by God, then there's no excuse, one has made their choice.

I believe that was the message here...

Heb 6:4-8
4 For it is impossible for those who were once enlightened, and have tasted of the heavenly gift, and were made partakers of the Holy Ghost,
5 And have tasted the good word of God, and the powers of the world to come,
6 If they shall fall away, to renew them again unto repentance; seeing they crucify to themselves the Son of God afresh, and put Him to an open shame.
7 For the earth which drinketh in the rain that cometh oft upon it, and bringeth forth herbs meet for them by whom it is dressed, receiveth blessing from God:
8 But that which beareth thorns and briers is rejected, and is nigh unto cursing; whose end is to be burned.
(KJV)

 

[faithtransforms]

Thanks veteran! Wow, I think you are the first person I have met on this site that I believe I may be in 100% agreement with in terms of doctrine and scripture. One last thing, off topic, do you believe salvation can be lost? By going back to a life of sin and never repenting before you die, for example?

Please don't be too quick to agree with me; I'm sure there's some things we may not see eye-to-eye on. Yet I do believe that through proper Bible study, we should come to agree on many things.

I do believe some who once believed on Christ Jesus can lose their salvation by turning away from Him 'willingly', and instead follow the devil and his ways. But for those whom God 'chose', I don't believe that's possible, for God already owns His chosen elect that He put in His service, and moves according to His Will. The latter group would especially be like the Patriarchs, prophets, and Apostles, but I think also includes some He has sealed for the end of days. I'm talking about accountability especially with the first group, because someone who 'knows' Christ is The Son of God, but willingly turns to unbelief is like committing the unforgiveable sin. Once one 'knows', and has been given proof by God, then there's no excuse, one has made their choice.

I believe that was the message here...

Heb 6:4-8
4 For it is impossible for those who were once enlightened, and have tasted of the heavenly gift, and were made partakers of the Holy Ghost,
5 And have tasted the good word of God, and the powers of the world to come,
6 If they shall fall away, to renew them again unto repentance; seeing they crucify to themselves the Son of God afresh, and put Him to an open shame.
7 For the earth which drinketh in the rain that cometh oft upon it, and bringeth forth herbs meet for them by whom it is dressed, receiveth blessing from God:
8 But that which beareth thorns and briers is rejected, and is nigh unto cursing; whose end is to be burned.
(KJV)

Oh yeah, I'm sure there are some things we disagree on. But it sounds like to me so far that we agree on major matters of doctrine, which is cool b/c I haven't met anyone on this site that I really agree with on most matters. So you are saying some are chosen and cannot be lost, but others can believe in Jesus and be born agan but then lose their salvation, is that right?

And also, do you believe there are legitimate sign gifts in operation today?

 

[Shilohsfoal]

Ok, so this is something I'd like to know more about... the abomination of desolation.
How do you arrive that the abomination of desolation is the mark of the beast?
Please support this with scripture.

On one hand I could see the abomination of desolation being the mark of the beast.

By comparing a whole lot of scripture.Such as these .
Rev 13;10
He that leadeth into captivity shall go into captivity;he that killeth with the sword must be killed with the sword.Here is the patience and faith of the saints.
Daniel 11;33
And they that understand amoung the people shall instruct many;yet they shall fall by the sword,and by flame,by captivity,and by spoil many days.

Or these
Rev 12;14
And to the woman were given two wings of a great eagle,that she might fly into her place,where she is nourished for a time,and times,and half a time from the face of the serpent.

Dan12;;7

And I heard the man clothed in lenin,which was upon the waters of the river;when he held up his right hand and his left hand unto heaven,and sware by him that liveth for ever that it shall be for a time,times,and a half;and when he shall have accomplished to scatter the power of the holy people,all these things shall be finished.

The more I compared the book of revelation to the book of Daniel ,the more I understood I was reading about BOTH beasts in Daniel chapter 11.Since I dont worship the US goverment nor do I worship the Israeli goverment ,its not that hard to understand.If I did love either country,I might have had a problem believing the truth.

 

[archangel_300]

The idea Paul was speaking of he that withholdeth until he be taken out of the way refers to the prophecy in Daniel 10:21 & 12:1. The idea of withholding in Dan.10 is about operations between heavenly powers. The angel was withheld by the symbolic prince of the kingdom of Persia (the devil) for 21 days but was helped by the Archangel Michael. In Dan.10:21 the angel says there is none that holdeth in those matters with him except Michael. In Rev.12:7-9 with the war in heaven, Michael casts Satan and his angels down to the earth. That's meant for the last days, and links to Dan.12:1, a time when Michael will "stand up" (make a stand), and then a time of trouble begins on earth that has never been the likes before, i.e., the great tribulation. Thus the "he" of 2 Thess.2:7 is not about The Holy Spirit or the rapture, but about Michael's withholding the dragon and his angels in heaven until the time of their casting out. In the very next verse of 2 Thess.2:8, Paul then says, "And then shall that Wicked be revealed,...." Paul is compressing the events of the tribulation in those 2 Thess.2:8-12 verses.

Unforutnately I have to disagree with you here veteran.
I firmly believe Revelation 12 is talking about the church and the entire New Testamant church age.
I'm also going to show why I don't believe 1260 days is literal and is a part of the great tribulation period.

Here's why...

From these verses below we can conclude:
1. the fiery red dragon is Satan (Compare verse 3 to verse 9)
2. The Child must be Christ who rules all nations with a rod of judgment. (See
Revelation 19:11-16 only the king of kings and Lord of Lords rules all nations with a
rod of judgment) Notice the woman gives birth to this child and the child caught up to God and His
throne. This is Jesus Christ who ascends into heaven after his resurrection.
3. The woman flees into the wilderness and is fed 1260 days. (see verse 6)

Revelation 12: 1Now a great sign appeared in heaven: a woman clothed with the sun,
with the moon under her feet, and on her head a garland of twelve stars. 2 Then being
with child, she cried out in labor and in pain to give birth.3 And another sign appeared in heaven: behold, a great, fiery red dragon having seven heads and ten horns, and seven diadems on his heads. 4 His tail drew a third of the stars of heaven and threw them to the earth. And the dragon stood before the woman who was ready to give birth, to devour her Child as soon as it was born. 5 She bore a male
Child who was to rule all nations with a rod of iron. And her Child was caught up to God and His throne. 6 Then the woman fled into the wilderness, where she has a place prepared by God, that they should feed her there one thousand two hundred and sixty days.


There must have been a period of time when Satan was utterly cast out of Heaven and I'm very skeptical this is a reference to a future event. I'm pretty certain that this occurred during the time of Jesus Christ when salvation became a reality because of the atoning death of Jesus Christ.

Luke 10:18 And He said to them, “I saw Satan fall like lightning from heaven.

Revelation 12:7 And war broke out in heaven: Michael and his angels fought with the dragon; and the dragon and his angels fought, 8 but they did not prevail, nor was a place found for them[a] in heaven any longer. 9 So the great dragon was cast out, that serpent of old, called the Devil and Satan, who deceives the whole world; he was cast to the earth, and his angels were cast out with him. 10 Then I heard a loud voice saying in heaven, “Now salvation, and strength, and the kingdom of our God, and the power of His Christ have come, for the accuser of our brethren, who accused them before our God day and night, has been cast down. 11 And they overcame him by the blood of the Lamb and by the word of their testimony, and they did not love their lives to the death. 12 Therefore rejoice, O heavens, and you
who dwell in them! Woe to the inhabitants of the earth and the sea! For the devil has come down to you, having great wrath, because he knows that he has a short time.â€

Look what happens immediately AFTER the dragon is cast out. He BEGINS to persecute the woman and ALL HER OFFSPRING. Who are all her offspring? "those who keep the commandments of God and have the testimony of JESUS CHRIST". That is the dragon now tries to persecute the body of believers in Jesus Christ.

Water in the scripture is typically a symbol of the gospel of Jesus christ. But notice the water comes from the MOUTH of the dragon. That is the dragon tries to destroy the woman via false gospels and teachings. The woman is kept safe and flees to the wilderness.

Revelation 12:13 Now when the dragon saw that he had been cast to the earth, he persecuted the woman who gave birth to the male Child. 14 But the woman was given two wings of a great eagle, that she might fly into the wilderness to her place, where she is nourished for a time and times and half a time, from the presence of the serpent. 15 So the serpent spewed water out of his mouth like a flood after the woman, that he might cause her to be carried away by the flood. 16 But the earth helped the woman, and the earth opened its mouth and swallowed up the flood which the dragon had spewed
out of his mouth. 17 And the dragon was enraged with the woman, and he went to make war with the rest of her offspring, who keep the commandments of God and have the testimony of Jesus Christ.

NOTICE SOMETHING HERE... There is a CONNECTION between the Israel of Old Testament and
the New Testament church. We as the body of believers TODAY are to God what Israel
was in the Old Testament.

Notice the flow of events...
1 Israel is in bondage in Egypt.
2 The Passover comes
3 Because of the Passover, the Egyptians chase Israel and Israel flees into the WILDERNESS and God leads them to their promised land.

Deuteronomy 8:2
And you shall remember that the LORD your God led you all the way these forty years in the wilderness, to humble you and test you, to know what was in your heart, whether you would keep His commandments or not.

Exodus 19:4
‘You have seen what I did to the Egyptians, and how I bore you on eagles’ wings and brought you to Myself.

Notice the flow of events...
1 We are in bondage to sin
2 Christ our Passover Lamb was crucified on the Jewish Passover.
3 Because of the Passover we are set free from sin and the gospel goes out into the world while Satan tries his best to persecute and demolish the church.

Now for the reason why I believe 1260 days is a reference to the entire time frame of the church age.

First look at something here:
Revelation 12:6 Then the woman fled into the wilderness, where she has a place prepared by God, that they should feed her there one thousand two hundred and sixty days.

Revelation 12:14 But the woman was given two wings of a great eagle, that she might fly into the wilderness to her place, where she is nourished for a time and times and half a time, from the presence of the serpent.

These two verses are referring to the SAME EVENT.
Therefore 1260 days = time times half time. This ties into the book of Daniel.

Also 1260 days / 30 days = 42 months. Again they are all referring to the SAME TIME PERIOD.

So now when we take a look at the two witnesses:

Revelation 11:3 And I will give power to my two witnesses, and they will prophesy one thousand two hundred and sixty days, clothed in sackcloth.â€

Revelation 11:7 When they finish their testimony, the beast that ascends out of the bottomless pit will make war against them, overcome them, and kill them.

When these two prophets finish their testimony... meaning when the 1260 days are completed. What happens next? There is a very short period of time when they are presumed DEAD (3.5 days) and then it's the RAPTURE and the END OF THE WORLD.

Revelation 11:11 Now after the three-and-a-half days the breath of life from God entered them, and they stood on their feet, and great fear fell on those who saw them. 12 And they[e] heard a loud voice from heaven saying to them, “Come up here.†And they ascended to heaven in a cloud, and their enemies saw them. 13 In the same hour there was a great earthquake, and a tenth of the city fell. In the earthquake seven thousand people were killed, and the rest were afraid and gave glory to the God of heaven. 14 The second woe is past. Behold, the third woe is coming quickly. 15 Then the seventh angel sounded: And there were loud voices in heaven, saying, “The kingdoms[f] of this world have become the kingdoms of our Lord and of His Christ, and He shall reign forever and ever!â€

Therefore that is the reason why I believe 1260 days is referring to the entire church age up until the time when Satan is loosed during the Great Tribulation period. We have the 1260 days starting with the woman fleeing into the wilterness this time period ends with the rapture of the church. The dragon being cast to earth cannot be a reference to a future event nor can 1260 days be literally interpreted as the time period referring to the great tribulation period. I can go into detail about the two witnesses, I firmly believe the two witnesses are a different facet of Revelation 12.

After the 1260 days (church age is finished) the woman in the wilderness goes into spiritual starvation (she is no longer fed). The witnesses no longer testify... The power of the holy people has been completely shattered and what happens? THE END COMES.

Daniel 12:7
Then I heard the man clothed in linen, who was above the waters of the river, when he held up his right hand and his left hand to heaven, and swore by Him who lives forever, that it shall be for a time, times, and half a time; and when the power of the holy people has been completely shattered, all these things shall be finished.

 

[veteran]

Oh yeah, I'm sure there are some things we disagree on. But it sounds like to me so far that we agree on major matters of doctrine, which is cool b/c I haven't met anyone on this site that I really agree with on most matters. So you are saying some are chosen and cannot be lost, but others can believe in Jesus and be born agan but then lose their salvation, is that right?

And also, do you believe there are legitimate sign gifts in operation today?

I believe our Lord Jesus is showing two groups in John 17, just as He declared about many being called, but few chosen. Jonah was another prime example of a chosen one, because he tried to get out of his duty when God told him directly to go preach to the city of Nineveh. God's Will won out. That shows ownership, because no matter what His chosen elect want to do, He will divinely move them into the duty He chose them for. Many debate whether we all have free will vs. being predestinated, but God's Word shows both exist, those who are chosen that He will bend to make them conform to His Will, and then those He calls that must stay focused on Him in becoming His elect. We're all to be one in Christ Jesus, which is what He showed in John 17. But there's still a leadership structure God setup from the beginning to ensure His Salvation would go forth.

As for some who believe and then turn away from Christ willingly, those are not chosen elect, because God allows those to go their own way if they so choose. Some might say Judas Isacariot was an example of a chosen elect, but what Scripture shows about his character reveals he was not, even though Christ said He chose him. Yet in John 6:70 Christ said that Judas was "a devil" when He said He chose him.

Concerning Holy Spirit gifts, yes I do believe The Holy Spirit still manifests through God's people. But likewise, I believe there is also a false spirit that can manifest, for the devil has a counterfeit working of just about everything God does.

 

[veteran]

Unforutnately I have to disagree with you here veteran.
I firmly believe Revelation 12 is talking about the church and the entire New Testamant church age.
I'm also going to show why I don't believe 1260 days is literal and is a part of the great tribulation period.

Here's why...

From these verses below we can conclude:
1. the fiery red dragon is Satan (Compare verse 3 to verse 9)
2. The Child must be Christ who rules all nations with a rod of judgment. (See
Revelation 19:11-16 only the king of kings and Lord of Lords rules all nations with a
rod of judgment) Notice the woman gives birth to this child and the child caught up to God and His
throne. This is Jesus Christ who ascends into heaven after his resurrection.
3. The woman flees into the wilderness and is fed 1260 days. (see verse 6)

Revelation 12: 1Now a great sign appeared in heaven: a woman clothed with the sun,
with the moon under her feet, and on her head a garland of twelve stars. 2 Then being
with child, she cried out in labor and in pain to give birth.3 And another sign appeared in heaven: behold, a great, fiery red dragon having seven heads and ten horns, and seven diadems on his heads. 4 His tail drew a third of the stars of heaven and threw them to the earth. And the dragon stood before the woman who was ready to give birth, to devour her Child as soon as it was born. 5 She bore a male
Child who was to rule all nations with a rod of iron. And her Child was caught up to God and His throne. 6 Then the woman fled into the wilderness, where she has a place prepared by God, that they should feed her there one thousand two hundred and sixty days.


There must have been a period of time when Satan was utterly cast out of Heaven and I'm very skeptical this is a reference to a future event. I'm pretty certain that this occurred during the time of Jesus Christ when salvation became a reality because of the atoning death of Jesus Christ.

Most of the first five verses of Rev.12 are a summary from the time of Satan's original rebellion down to the future time when Christ will rule all nations with a rod of iron, which is Milennial timing. The woman there is Israel as those symbols were first given in Joseph's dream, Gen.37 I think. The "red dragon" is Satan, because Rev.12:9 does define that as one of his many titles. Rev.12:3-4 happened long ago though, because that's about the time when the devil first rebelled against God, and drew one third of the angels (stars) into rebellion with him. A system beast with only seven crowns is linked to that event of Satan's original rebellion. The one in Rev.13 has ten crowns instead.

Then at Rev.12:6 forward, that's a jump to the tribulation timing. I do not hold to the idea that every prophecy in God's Word is meant as a day=a year application, but only where God's Word says it does. I see the 1260 days, or 42 months, or three and one half years according to how it's written literally. If that were not so, then for 1260 years God's two witnesses should have been prophesying in Jerusalem, yet we haven't seen that event happen.

Luke 10:18 And He said to them, “I saw Satan fall like lightning from heaven.

Revelation 12:7 And war broke out in heaven: Michael and his angels fought with the dragon; and the dragon and his angels fought, 8 but they did not prevail, nor was a place found for them[a] in heaven any longer. 9 So the great dragon was cast out, that serpent of old, called the Devil and Satan, who deceives the whole world; he was cast to the earth, and his angels were cast out with him. 10 Then I heard a loud voice saying in heaven, “Now salvation, and strength, and the kingdom of our God, and the power of His Christ have come, for the accuser of our brethren, who accused them before our God day and night, has been cast down. 11 And they overcame him by the blood of the Lamb and by the word of their testimony, and they did not love their lives to the death. 12 Therefore rejoice, O heavens, and you
who dwell in them! Woe to the inhabitants of the earth and the sea! For the devil has come down to you, having great wrath, because he knows that he has a short time.â€

Look what happens immediately AFTER the dragon is cast out. He BEGINS to persecute the woman and ALL HER OFFSPRING. Who are all her offspring? "those who keep the commandments of God and have the testimony of JESUS CHRIST". That is the dragon now tries to persecute the body of believers in Jesus Christ.

Especially note that after the dragon is cast out of heaven, the Scripture makes mention of those who overcame him through the Blood of The Lamb Jesus Christ. That's a pointer to the tribulation time, not the whole of Church history. We also know for sure that casting out of Rev.12:7-9 is not about Satan's original rebellion of old either, since Christ had not yet come to die on the cross back then. Rev.12:3-4 is to show Satan's first casting out, and that in contrast to his final casting down to earth for the future great tribulation.

I suggest you go back to the OT prophets about that flood out of the dragon's mouth, for that's where those symbols first appear, like with Isaiah 28:2; Isaiah 8:7; Isaiah 59:19; Jer.46:7 & 47:2, etc. In the OT prophets, God uses the king of Assyria as a 'type' for Satan (like in Ezek.31 and Isaiah 14). The flood out of the dragon's mouth represents lies of deception for the end. Deception to a false messiah is the main event. That symbolic flood is also linked to events in Rev.9 about the locust army involving the 5th and 6th trumpets. All that is still future to us, because the tribulation has not started yet. Per OT history, that flood of waters was used as a symbol for how the enemy would come upon Israel for a spoil. The king of Assyria did that literally by removing all the ten tribes out of the land, and then later the king of Babylon did that when he destroyed Jerusalem and took Judah captive to Babylon. All that OT history serves as an ensample of the end. The main difference is historically it was a literal time of destruction, while in the end it's going to be about spiritual destruction through lies that come out of the mouths of the dragon and his locust army of Rev.9.

The idea of the woman fleeing into the wilderness is metaphorical about not being deceived, being under God's protection and sealing. That idea appears again later in Rev.12:14 after the dragon is cast to the earth. The war in the last verse is about the end tribulation timing, especially the very end when the devil will get fed up and seek to destroy Israel totally (per the army that comes out of the northern quarters in Ezekiel 38 & 39. That's the Rev.16 Armageddon event when The LORD is going to rise up off His Throne and step in to destroy that army, which ushers in the Day of The Lord events and Christ's coming.

It's possible that Rev.12:6 may represent the first half of Daniel's "one week" (7 years), while Rev.12:14 after the dragon is cast down to the earth (again) would represent the last half of the tribulaton.

 

[Mysteryman]

Unforutnately I have to disagree with you here veteran.
I firmly believe Revelation 12 is talking about the church and the entire New Testamant church age.
I'm also going to show why I don't believe 1260 days is literal and is a part of the great tribulation period.

Here's why...

From these verses below we can conclude:
1. the fiery red dragon is Satan (Compare verse 3 to verse 9)
2. The Child must be Christ who rules all nations with a rod of judgment. (See
Revelation 19:11-16 only the king of kings and Lord of Lords rules all nations with a
rod of judgment) Notice the woman gives birth to this child and the child caught up to God and His
throne. This is Jesus Christ who ascends into heaven after his resurrection.
3. The woman flees into the wilderness and is fed 1260 days. (see verse 6)

Revelation 12: 1Now a great sign appeared in heaven: a woman clothed with the sun,
with the moon under her feet, and on her head a garland of twelve stars. 2 Then being
with child, she cried out in labor and in pain to give birth.3 And another sign appeared in heaven: behold, a great, fiery red dragon having seven heads and ten horns, and seven diadems on his heads. 4 His tail drew a third of the stars of heaven and threw them to the earth. And the dragon stood before the woman who was ready to give birth, to devour her Child as soon as it was born. 5 She bore a male
Child who was to rule all nations with a rod of iron. And her Child was caught up to God and His throne. 6 Then the woman fled into the wilderness, where she has a place prepared by God, that they should feed her there one thousand two hundred and sixty days.


There must have been a period of time when Satan was utterly cast out of Heaven and I'm very skeptical this is a reference to a future event. I'm pretty certain that this occurred during the time of Jesus Christ when salvation became a reality because of the atoning death of Jesus Christ.

Most of the first five verses of Rev.12 are a summary from the time of Satan's original rebellion down to the future time when Christ will rule all nations with a rod of iron, which is Milennial timing. The woman there is Israel as those symbols were first given in Joseph's dream, Gen.37 I think. The "red dragon" is Satan, because Rev.12:9 does define that as one of his many titles. Rev.12:3-4 happened long ago though, because that's about the time when the devil first rebelled against God, and drew one third of the angels (stars) into rebellion with him. A system beast with only seven crowns is linked to that event of Satan's original rebellion. The one in Rev.13 has ten crowns instead.

Then at Rev.12:6 forward, that's a jump to the tribulation timing. I do not hold to the idea that every prophecy in God's Word is meant as a day=a year application, but only where God's Word says it does. I see the 1260 days, or 42 months, or three and one half years according to how it's written literally. If that were not so, then for 1260 years God's two witnesses should have been prophesying in Jerusalem, yet we haven't seen that event happen.

Luke 10:18 And He said to them, “I saw Satan fall like lightning from heaven.

Revelation 12:7 And war broke out in heaven: Michael and his angels fought with the dragon; and the dragon and his angels fought, 8 but they did not prevail, nor was a place found for them[a] in heaven any longer. 9 So the great dragon was cast out, that serpent of old, called the Devil and Satan, who deceives the whole world; he was cast to the earth, and his angels were cast out with him. 10 Then I heard a loud voice saying in heaven, “Now salvation, and strength, and the kingdom of our God, and the power of His Christ have come, for the accuser of our brethren, who accused them before our God day and night, has been cast down. 11 And they overcame him by the blood of the Lamb and by the word of their testimony, and they did not love their lives to the death. 12 Therefore rejoice, O heavens, and you
who dwell in them! Woe to the inhabitants of the earth and the sea! For the devil has come down to you, having great wrath, because he knows that he has a short time.â€

Look what happens immediately AFTER the dragon is cast out. He BEGINS to persecute the woman and ALL HER OFFSPRING. Who are all her offspring? "those who keep the commandments of God and have the testimony of JESUS CHRIST". That is the dragon now tries to persecute the body of believers in Jesus Christ.

Especially note that after the dragon is cast out of heaven, the Scripture makes mention of those who overcame him through the Blood of The Lamb Jesus Christ. That's a pointer to the tribulation time, not the whole of Church history. We also know for sure that casting out of Rev.12:7-9 is not about Satan's original rebellion of old either, since Christ had not yet come to die on the cross back then. Rev.12:3-4 is to show Satan's first casting out, and that in contrast to his final casting down to earth for the future great tribulation.

I suggest you go back to the OT prophets about that flood out of the dragon's mouth, for that's where those symbols first appear, like with Isaiah 28:2; Isaiah 8:7; Isaiah 59:19; Jer.46:7 & 47:2, etc. In the OT prophets, God uses the king of Assyria as a 'type' for Satan (like in Ezek.31 and Isaiah 14). The flood out of the dragon's mouth represents lies of deception for the end. Deception to a false messiah is the main event. That symbolic flood is also linked to events in Rev.9 about the locust army involving the 5th and 6th trumpets. All that is still future to us, because the tribulation has not started yet. Per OT history, that flood of waters was used as a symbol for how the enemy would come upon Israel for a spoil. The king of Assyria did that literally by removing all the ten tribes out of the land, and then later the king of Babylon did that when he destroyed Jerusalem and took Judah captive to Babylon. All that OT history serves as an ensample of the end. The main difference is historically it was a literal time of destruction, while in the end it's going to be about spiritual destruction through lies that come out of the mouths of the dragon and his locust army of Rev.9.

The idea of the woman fleeing into the wilderness is metaphorical about not being deceived, being under God's protection and sealing. That idea appears again later in Rev.12:14 after the dragon is cast to the earth. The war in the last verse is about the end tribulation timing, especially the very end when the devil will get fed up and seek to destroy Israel totally (per the army that comes out of the northern quarters in Ezekiel 38 & 39. That's the Rev.16 Armageddon event when The LORD is going to rise up off His Throne and step in to destroy that army, which ushers in the Day of The Lord events and Christ's coming.

It's possible that Rev.12:6 may represent the first half of Daniel's "one week" (7 years), while Rev.12:14 after the dragon is cast down to the earth (again) would represent the last half of the tribulaton.

Who do you think the serpent was , that was in the garden of Eden ?