Hey You Pre-Tribbers!!!

[veteran]

Revelation 12 has to be interpreted as the church age.

No, it doesn't, at least not in the way you seem to be thinking, because after all, aren't we STILL in the so-called Church Age today; and since ALL will still have the opportunity to come to Christ all the way up to His coming, AND those alive of His Church will still be here to the last trump? It's best not to confuse a doctrine of man, or dispensational type time label from men's traditions with specific Bible prophecy like our Lord's Book of Revelation. You appear to be clocking Revelation around the "Church Age" label more than allowing the Scripture to speak in simplicity.

Let's go through this again:
We know for certain the child is Christ as he rules all nations with a rod of iron. (Revelation 19:15)
Notice what happens after the child is caught up to God and His throne... that is after his asension in the book of Acts.

Revelation 12:4 His tail drew a third of the stars of heaven and threw them to the earth. And the dragon stood before the woman who was ready to give birth, to devour her Child as soon as it was born. 5 She bore a male Child who was to rule all nations with a rod of iron. And her Child was caught up to God and His throne. 6 THEN the woman fled into the wilderness, where she has a place prepared by God, that they should feed her there one thousand two hundred and sixty days.

The Bible DOES NOT say "then we jump all the way to the end of time at the mid point of the tribulation period" In sequential order we see the child ascend to God and his throne THEN the woman flees.
Revelation 12 has NOTHING to do with the great tribulation period. The great tribulation period ended in Revelation 11 with the sounding of the seventh trumpet and now the cycle of telling the story of God's plan starting from the New Testament period going forth is retold again.

First of all, there's no "THEN" at the beginning of Rev.12:6. The Rev.12:1-5 verses are a short summary from the time of Satan's rebellion to the future time of Christ's thousand years reign with a rod of iron. It's that simple. At Rev.12:6 the timeline jumps to the end times. That's why the subject of both of these verses are linked together...

Rev 12:6
6 And the woman fled into the wilderness, where she hath a place prepared of God, that they should feed her there a thousand two hundred and threescore days.
(KJV)

Rev 12:14
14 And to the woman were given two wings of a great eagle, that she might fly into the wilderness, into her place, where she is nourished for a time, and times, and half a time, from the face of the serpent.
(KJV)

The main difference is, the 14th verse going into the wildness is for protection specifically against the face of the serpent. Might want to look up the Greek word for "face" there too, for it means the serpent's actual presence or visage. Afterall, verses 7-9 did cover the serpent being cast down to the earth.

I see afterall, you are on that false idea of looking at the Revelation chapters as if everything happens in sequential order. Is that what helps you try and move the "time, and times, and half a time" or 42 months, or 1260 days, backwards to the time of Christ's crucifixion?

You'll have great difficulty in doing that, because not ONLY would you have to do it with Rev.12, but ALSO with Rev.13, Rev.17-20, 2 Thess.2, Matt.24, Mark 13, and most of the Book of Daniel, for ALL those Scriptures declare a particular false one coming IN THE END OF DAYS to blaspheme God and set up false worship for the whole world to bow to.

What happens when the woman flees?

Revelation 12:13 Now when the dragon saw that he had been cast to the earth, he persecuted the woman who gave birth to the male Child. 14 But the woman was given two wings of a great eagle, that she might fly into the wilderness to her place, where she is nourished for a time and times and half a time, from the presence of the serpent.

When was the dragon cast out?

Look at the Rev.12 verses again...

Rev 12:7-13
7 And there was war in heaven: Michael and his angels fought against the dragon; and the dragon fought and his angels,
8 And prevailed not; neither was their place found any more in heaven.

That's the time Dan.12:1 is talking about, a time when Archangel Michael stands up (makes a stand).

Dan 12:1
1 And at that time shall Michael stand up, the great prince which standeth for the children of thy people: and there shall be a time of trouble, such as never was since there was a nation even to that same time: and at that time thy people shall be delivered, every one that shall be found written in the book.
(KJV)

Did you notice what follows Michael doing that? That's only about the very end of days, the end of this world timing, and not the time of our Lord's crucifixion.

Rev.12:9 And the great dragon was cast out, that old serpent, called the Devil, and Satan, which deceiveth the whole world: he was cast out into the earth, and his angels were cast out with him.
10 And I heard a loud voice saying in heaven, Now is come salvation, and strength, and the kingdom of our God, and the power of His Christ: for the accuser of our brethren is cast down, which accused them before our God day and night.

Our Lord defeated the devil at His crucifixion per Hebrews 2:14, but did you notice that defeat didn't literally destroy the devil yet, for his destruction in the "lake of fire" doesn't happen until God's great white throne judgment, a time just prior to the start of His eternity. Oh, but I guess that "thousand years" of Rev.20 conflicts with where you're wanting to move these Rev.12:6-17 events to, so me bringing up that future thousand years period and the lake of fire event at the end of it doesn't work for you does it?

Rev.12:11 And they overcame him by the blood of the Lamb, and by the word of their testimony; and they loved not their lives unto the death.

Wait a minute. What's this doing here if this is about the time of Satan's casting out right after our Lord's crucifixion? That's 5th seal timing isn't it? Yep!

Rev 6:9-11
9 And when he had opened the fifth seal, I saw under the altar the souls of them that were slain for the word of God, and for the testimony which they held:
10 And they cried with a loud voice, saying, "How long, O Lord, holy and true, dost Thou not judge and avenge our blood on them that dwell on the earth?"
11 And white robes were given unto every one of them; and it was said unto them, that they should rest yet for a little season, until their fellowservants also and their brethren, that should be killed as they were, should be fulfilled.
(KJV)

Rev.12:12 Therefore rejoice, ye heavens, and ye that dwell in them. Woe to the inhabiters of the earth and of the sea! for the devil is come down unto you, having great wrath, because he knoweth that he hath but a short time.
13 And when the dragon saw that he was cast unto the earth, he persecuted the woman which brought forth the man child.
(KJV)

Got a couple more end time markers in that Rev.12:12 verse too. What's the difference here with the devil being cast down to the earth and those on earth are given a woe warning, and with the time of Christ's crucifixion? There's a big difference. It's because verse 8 shows there's no more place IN HEAVEN found for the devil and his angels. Let's see, how many dimensions of existence does God's Word show? Well, Apostle Paul clearly showed in 1 Cor.15 there's the earthly, and then the heavenly. So if the devil is cast out of the heavenly, then WHERE DOES HE HAVE TO GO?

That's where many are confused about this casting out, because it is not like his first casting out of old, for he was still able to appear in the Heavenly, even at God's Throne with his angels per Job 1 & 2. Nor is this about the time of John 12:31. This Rev.12:7-9 casting out is different, for it means his casting literally upon this earth out of the heavenly, not in a ghost body where we can't see him either, but in FULL view with the image of man. That "short time" that he knows he will then have is about the shortened time of the tribulation our Lord Jesus said.

So if you think those events are all past history, like many of today's Preterists believe, then you are greatly deceived, and not at all prepared for the coming events upon this earth in our near future.

Now you have left me confused.
If the dragon is cast out during the mid point of the tribulation period, is the tribulation period 7 years or is it 3.5 years? How do you arrive at a 7 year tribulation period and if it is 7 years what happens during the first 3.5 years?

I agree that the flood of the dragon's mouth represent lies of deception. But that means that if you link the dragons deception to the locusts / 5th trumpet this means that the dragon gets cast out during the FIRST HALF of the tribulation period... reason being is because the 5th trumpet precedes the two witnesses. Does the dragon get cast out during the first half or the second half?

The first 5 trumpets happen in the first 3.5 years period, that's what happens. It's a prep time for the 6th trumpet events, which is when the height of the deception will occur with the four angels loosed at the river Euphrates. If you'll recall the time of God's two witnesses sent to prophesy for 1260 days (3.5 years), that's during the 6th trumpet - 2nd woe period. Rev.13:4-5 says the dragon is given power to work for 42 months (3.5 years or 1260 days), so what time do you think that is? If God's two witnesses are given to prophesy for 1260 days, and then Christ's coming happens right after that to destroy that Wicked one with the "brightness of His coming" (2 Thess.2), then which half do you think the dragon appears?

 

[veteran]

Again stating John 14:30 is referring to the great tribulation is a very big stretch.
I think it just means Satan is cast out of heaven but now he's coming on this earth... just like Revelation 12 states what would happen after he is cast out of heaven. He now comes to this earth to destroy. Or it can mean Satan is coming to try to thwart the crucifixion of Jesus Christ. The prince of this world coming does not mean he is allowed entrance into heaven once again.

I'm sorry, I can't help thinking you're in denial about the meaning of that John 14:30 verse. Afterall, it's not like God's Word ends with that verse of John. There's loads of more prophesy given about the end of this world after John 14:30.

The question still remains does Satan get cast out twice? The verse I quoted clearly indicates he was cast out during the time of Christ. This must refer to revelation 12 when Satan is cast out and the power of Christ's salvation plan comes in full effect.

The real question is, just what KIND of casting out to the earth does Rev.12:7-9 mean? In Rev.12:7-10 we're shown the dragon being cast down to this earth in person. If that has already happened back at Christ's crucifixion, then why haven't we been able to see him de facto in person upon this earth with the image of man, working great wonders and bringing fire down from heaven in the sight of men? That's who the pseudo Christ is going to be our Lord Jesus and His Apostles were talking about, the devil himself, in person, in full view upon this earth. That has never happenned before. When you see, then maybe you'll believe.

 

[veteran]

Ok so the millenium theory is the following:
1. Satan/the beast is judged in Revelation 19
2. Christ reigns 1000 years
3. Satan escapes hell after 1000 years and is judged again in Revelation 20

Where do you get this "Satan escapes hell after 1000 years" stuff? That sounds like a mocking of those who are given to understand about Christ's Milennium reign, for our Lord releases him as written, and it will be for a certain purpose.

OK, I'm taking the gloves off, and not foolin' around now. I'll explain what the "dead" of Rev.20:5 is about, and the purpose for Christ's thousand years reign, but not for your sake since you appear to mock the idea. I'll do it for the sake of others who might come to understand that time better. It'll be a pearl buried here within all these posts.

Rev 20:5-6
5 But the rest of the dead lived not again until the thousand years were finished. This is the first resurrection.
6 Blessed and holy is he that hath part in the first resurrection: on such the second death hath no power, but they shall be priests of God and of Christ, and shall reign with him a thousand years.
(KJV)

The huge... mistake many make in trying understand about those "dead" in Rev.20 is by thinking of the word "dead" in today's terms, like the flesh dying and being buried in the ground. Rev.20 is taking place AFTER Christ's coming which means what about the resurrection on the "last trump" (7th trumpet)? Enough on that small point, you should be able to figure that out.

In John 5, our Lord Jesus said at the sound of His voice ALL in the graves will do what? Some will go into the resurrection to life, and others to the resurrection of damnation. Is that at different times, or both groups being resurrected at the same time? It's BOTH groups being resurrected at the SAME time. So forget all the junk doctrines that wrongly teach some will be resurrected at Christ's coming, and others like the unjust will still be dead in graves, or even still in flesh bodies like today's.

Rev 3:9
9 Behold, I will make them of the synagogue of Satan, which say they are Jews, and are not, but do lie; behold, I will make them to come and worship before thy feet, and to know that I have loved thee.
(KJV)

Exactly when will that event our Lord promised those of the Church of Philadelphia take place? It certainly has not happened yet, nor will it occur until AFTER Christ's coming. So how are those of Christ's enemies able to bow in worship to Him at the feet of His elect? It's because the wicked will be in resurrection bodies also. Afterall, didn't our Lord Jesus show both the just and the unjust are resurrected at the same time in John 5:29? Yes.

So what's the difference?

You already know it, but probably like most have passed over it, not fully realizing it. In John 3 our Lord Jesus said to enter in eternal Life one must be "born again" of The Spirit.

Matt 23:27
27 Woe unto you, scribes and Pharisees, hypocrites! for ye are like unto whited sepulchres, which indeed appear beautiful outward, but are within full of dead men's bones, and of all uncleanness.
(KJV)

Luke 11:44
44 Woe unto you, scribes and Pharisees, hypocrites! for ye are as graves which appear not, and the men that walk over them are not aware of them.
(KJV)

Question: those blind scribes and Pharisees who sought to kill our Lord Jesus, just what PART of them was "dead"? Were they in a "born again" state? Obviously not. But weren't they able to live and walk upon the earth in that condition, just as many unbelievers are today? Yes. But truly inside, with their spirit, their souls, they are literally "dead".

Thus our Lord Jesus actually did show us a difference between the believer and the non-believer, with the condition of their spirit or soul inside them. Nicodemus was a learned man, yet he still struggled with this in John 3. We shouldn't, but should understand it.

After Christ's coming, and the resurrection of both the just and... the unjust, ONLY the just will NOT be subject to the "second death". That's what Rev.20:6 shows, the second death will have no power upon those.

But what about those of the resurrection of the unjust, the wicked? THOSE are the "dead" of Rev.20:5. They will be resurrected too at Christ's coming, but only the body or outward image part ("image of the heavenly" Paul mentioned), not their soul or inside condition, for their souls will still be spiritually dead, without The Holy Spirit, and definitely still not "born again" of The Spirit. Apostle Paul covered this in 1 Cor.15 when he showed to inherit eternal Life one must go through both a change to the "spiritual body", and also "put on immortality". The first change is about the outward image or appearance only, a heavenly type spiritual body. But the other required change is about the condition of one's soul, either being made immortal through Christ by The Holy Spirit, or still being "dead" and still liable to perish later in the "lake of fire", i.e., the "second death".

It's sad for me to reveal, that ONLY those who overcome the beast during the coming tribulation will be resurrected unto eternal life, and reign with Christ as kings and priests. I'm sure many may not like to hear that, but I'm not going to sugarcoat it. I took the gloves off, remember? The rest, including all believers that allow themselves to be deceived during the tribulation, will be part of those "dead" who lived not again until the thousand years are finished. They will be spiritually dead, not literally dead in graves.

Rev 20:4
4 And I saw thrones, and they sat upon them, and judgment was given unto them: and I saw the souls of them that were beheaded for the witness of Jesus, and for the word of God, and which had not worshipped the beast, neither his image, neither had received his mark upon their foreheads, or in their hands; and they lived and reigned with Christ a thousand years.
(KJV)

The Scripture is very specific which ones reign with Christ, and are of the "first resurrection."

Because the ordinal number of "first" is given in Rev.20:5, it automatically infers at least one more or a second resurrection. In the coming tribulation, like Paul showed in 2 Thess.2, many believers are going to fall away to the "strong delusion" by the false messiah. That represents the five foolish virgins, and the unprofitable servants. I hope and pray that I'm in that first resurrection, as with all here who believe on our Lord Jesus and Savior. But I'm not going to shame that group our Lord mentions there that will refuse to bow to the beast and are killed for it, by saying that the deceived foolish virgins will be part of it.

If you've understood this much, you should be able to figure out the rest, as to who Christ's Milennium time is actually for, i.e., the deceived of God's people who believe on Him, but worship the false messiah which is the falling away to deception during the tribulation. They will be taught the difference between the profane and righteousness during the thousand years, which is a prophecy in the OT prophets. That will be the complete fulfillment of Jer.31:34.

Thus the "first resurrection" is NOT simply about being resurrected with a spiritual body, for the unjust will have that kind of outward image or body too. The "first resurrection" is about eternal Life, not still being spiritually dead with one's soul in a liable to die "mortal" state (per 1 Cor.15). After that thousand years, Satan is loosed once more, and it's for a final testing, but upon whom? Not those of the "first resurrection" who will reign with Christ with a rod of iron. Will some of those "dead", which will include those who believe on Christ but were deceived by the dragon and fell away, put on immortality at that end, and become part of the "first resurrection"? It's my sincere hope all of them do.

 

[archangel_300]

I see afterall, you are on that false idea of looking at the Revelation chapters as if everything happens in sequential order. Is that what helps you try and move the "time, and times, and half a time" or 42 months, or 1260 days, backwards to the time of Christ's crucifixion?

You'll have great difficulty in doing that, because not ONLY would you have to do it with Rev.12, but ALSO with Rev.13, Rev.17-20, 2 Thess.2, Matt.24, Mark 13, and most of the Book of Daniel, for ALL those Scriptures declare a particular false one coming IN THE END OF DAYS to blaspheme God and set up false worship for the whole world to bow to.

Yes... and that's what my whole theory is about, correct?
Everything happens concurrently. But the events that occur WITHIN the framework of these time periods occur sequentially (unless scripture proves otherwise).

I believe the scripture is clear that 1260 started at the time of Christ's asension into heaven and the persecution of the church started. (Rev 12/Acts 1)

To summarize my entire theory here is what I see:
1. The persecution of the church through out the church age. (Rev 13/Daniel 7)
2. The church being spiritually fed and divinely protected throughout the church age. (Rev 12)
3. The church as God's witnesses to testify of the gospel to the world throughout the entire church age. (Rev 11)

 

[archangel_300]

Where do you get this "Satan escapes hell after 1000 years" stuff? That sounds like a mocking of those who are given to understand about Christ's Milennium reign, for our Lord releases him as written, and it will be for a certain purpose.

OK, I'm taking the gloves off, and not foolin' around now. I'll explain what the "dead" of Rev.20:5 is about, and the purpose for Christ's thousand years reign, but not for your sake since you appear to mock the idea. I'll do it for the sake of others who might come to understand that time better. It'll be a pearl buried here within all these posts.

Sorry about that.
Forgive me for that, I admit I am in the wrong here.
I just can't fathom why Christ comes to reign, Satan is bound in hell and then Christ releases him after 1000 years to deceive the world while Christ is still reigning on earth? If Satan is in hell then he is defeated why would he need to be released again and then judged a 2nd time? Why not just keep Satan there for good?

Question: those blind scribes and Pharisees who sought to kill our Lord Jesus, just what PART of them was "dead"? Were they in a "born again" state? Obviously not. But weren't they able to live and walk upon the earth in that condition, just as many unbelievers are today? Yes. But truly inside, with their spirit, their souls, they are literally "dead".

Thus our Lord Jesus actually did show us a difference between the believer and the non-believer, with the condition of their spirit or soul inside them. Nicodemus was a learned man, yet he still struggled with this in John 3. We shouldn't, but should understand it.

After Christ's coming, and the resurrection of both the just and... the unjust, ONLY the just will NOT be subject to the "second death". That's what Rev.20:6 shows, the second death will have no power upon those.

But what about those of the resurrection of the unjust, the wicked? THOSE are the "dead" of Rev.20:5. They will be resurrected too at Christ's coming, but only the body or outward image part ("image of the heavenly" Paul mentioned), not their soul or inside condition, for their souls will still be spiritually dead, without The Holy Spirit, and definitely still not "born again" of The Spirit. Apostle Paul covered this in 1 Cor.15 when he showed to inherit eternal Life one must go through both a change to the "spiritual body", and also "put on immortality". The first change is about the outward image or appearance only, a heavenly type spiritual body. But the other required change is about the condition of one's soul, either being made immortal through Christ by The Holy Spirit, or still being "dead" and still liable to perish later in the "lake of fire", i.e., the "second death".

Yeah but there is a MAJOR problem with interpreting the "dead" as being those who are spiritually dead during the millenium. Revelation 20:13 is clearly referring to not only those who are spiritually dead but those who are physically dead and awaiting their time for judgment. This goes back to the beginning of the 1000 years... it's referring to them.

Revelation 20:13 The sea gave up the dead who were in it, and Death and Hades delivered up the dead who were in them. And they were judged, each one according to his works. 14 Then Death and Hades were cast into the lake of fire. This is the second death.[d]

Take a look at this verse...

The phrase "taste death" is referring to eternal death. That is to say some will not experience the wrath of God until the Son of Man comes in his kingdom.

Matthew 16:28 Assuredly, I say to you, there are some standing here who shall not taste death till they see the Son of Man coming in His kingdom.â€

When does the son of man come in his kingdom?

Matthew 24:29 “Immediately after the tribulation of those days the sun will be darkened, and the moon will not give its light; the stars will fall from heaven, and the powers of the heavens will be shaken. 30 Then the sign of the Son of Man will appear in heaven, and then all the tribes of the earth will mourn, and they will see the Son of Man coming on the clouds of heaven with power and great glory.

But according to millenium theory immediately after the great tribulation period the 1000 years starts.
So how can it be that Christ was saying there were some people around him who would not experience death until the 1000 year reign comes? Those people he was referring to are physically dead and must be raised from the dead if they are to be judged according to their works and then cast into damnation.

 

[archangel_300]

The real question is, just what KIND of casting out to the earth does Rev.12:7-9 mean? In Rev.12:7-10 we're shown the dragon being cast down to this earth in person. If that has already happened back at Christ's crucifixion, then why haven't we been able to see him de facto in person upon this earth with the image of man, working great wonders and bringing fire down from heaven in the sight of men? That's who the pseudo Christ is going to be our Lord Jesus and His Apostles were talking about, the devil himself, in person, in full view upon this earth. That has never happenned before. When you see, then maybe you'll believe.

Don't take what I'm going to say here as mocking. It just doesn't make sense to me that heaven is rejoicing because Michael and his angels cast Satan into a human body. Notice that the war was not only between Satan and Michael... it was between SATAN'S ANGELS as well. So do all Satan's angels get cast into human bodies?

Revelation 12:9 So the great dragon was cast out, that serpent of old, called the Devil and Satan, who deceives the whole world; he was cast to the earth, and his angels were cast out with him.

With regards to the great wonders and signs that occur... isn't that occurring already?
Just do a google search on "signs and wonders". I mean no offense to anybody that practice or are affiliated with this type of thing. But I think we need to be vigilant in case this these type of manifestations are not from God. I don't think we can say "oh well it occurs in the church so it must be God". What I find very alarming is that within the past century these types of thing became very prevalent within the church. What I find just as alarming is the complacency the church takes as if it's no big deal. No one is getting ready and no one seems to question, are these signs and miracles truly from God or is this a fullfillment of Christ's prophecy in Matthew 24 as well as Rev 13?

Christ keeps warning us that his coming will be like a thief in the night... so we'd better be watching.
If we are watching or are distracted by the wrong things, Christ's return will come upon us unexpectedly. If we are expecting a one man anti christ to arise when there is not clear evidence in scripture to support that one will, well... you'll be watching the wrong things and the day of the Lord will take you unexpectedly.

 

[veteran]

Yes... and that's what my whole theory is about, correct?
Everything happens concurrently. But the events that occur WITHIN the framework of these time periods occur sequentially (unless scripture proves otherwise).

OK, let me make myself clear on that. For example, in Rev.6 with the six seals, the fith and sixth seals are about the tribulation timing and then the end with Christ's coming. And then at the start of Rev.7, the subject is about the sealing of God's servants, a time prior to Christ's coming. Do you not understand that Rev.6 ends with Christ's coming, but Rev.7 moves back in time to before His coming? How does that show the Revelation chapters occur in "concurrent" or sequential order?

Likewise with Rev.10 that you asked about, it declares when the seventh angel sounds (7th trumpet), all the events for the end of this world with Christ's coming will be over. And then immediately in Rev.11 the timeline moves back to the 6th trumpet - 2nd woe period, and then moves forward to cover the 7th trumpet which Rev.10 mentioned. Does that show we can study the Revelation chapters as if their events happen in progressive order? No.

The layout of Revelation is like a continual expansion of the events, each succeeding chapter giving a bit more perspective and detail on the events until the end of chapter 19. In other words, Rev.6 is covering events of the end that also are the same events covered in Rev.9 through Rev.19.

Thus it's error to study our Lord's Book of Revelation like chapter 6 happens first, then chapter 7 happens next, then chapter 8 happens next, and so on. Instead Rev.6 is a summary with the seals, then each succeeding chapter keeps expanding on those events with more detail until the end of Rev.19 is reached. When you get to the three woe periods, that's to serve as an EMPHASIZED detail of events in a fixed order.

I believe the scripture is clear that 1260 started at the time of Christ's asension into heaven and the persecution of the church started. (Rev 12/Acts 1)

To summarize my entire theory here is what I see:
1. The persecution of the church through out the church age. (Rev 13/Daniel 7)
2. The church being spiritually fed and divinely protected throughout the church age. (Rev 12)
3. The church as God's witnesses to testify of the gospel to the world throughout the entire church age. (Rev 11)

That's just a doctrine of man, nothing more, nothing less. That idea is not even written in our Lord's Book of Revelation.

 

[veteran]

Sorry about that.
Forgive me for that, I admit I am in the wrong here.
I just can't fathom why Christ comes to reign, Satan is bound in hell and then Christ releases him after 1000 years to deceive the world while Christ is still reigning on earth? If Satan is in hell then he is defeated why would he need to be released again and then judged a 2nd time? Why not just keep Satan there for good?

No problem brother. All I can do is assure that you will one day understand what that "thousand years" will be about. If you love our Heavenly Father and His Son like I think you do, then I can only hope you prepare yourself for what's coming in our near future, and stay in Christ not allowing any man to deceive you, like our Lord Jesus warned us. It's not going to be well with those who don't stay the course but in error bow in worship to a false one, and that applies both to deceived believers on Jesus who bow to false messiah, and likewise for non-believers.

Yeah but there is a MAJOR problem with interpreting the "dead" as being those who are spiritually dead during the millenium. Revelation 20:13 is clearly referring to not only those who are spiritually dead but those who are physically dead and awaiting their time for judgment. This goes back to the beginning of the 1000 years... it's referring to them.

Revelation 20:13 The sea gave up the dead who were in it, and Death and Hades delivered up the dead who were in them. And they were judged, each one according to his works. 14 Then Death and Hades were cast into the lake of fire. This is the second death.[d]

If there is anyone left after Christ's coming that can still go through a flesh death (i.e., the first death), then it would mean our Lord Jesus and His Apostles lied about the resurrection of both the just and the unjust (like John 5:29). This is why John in Rev.20:12 still calls them "the dead" while they are standing in judgment.

Rev 20:12
12 And I saw the dead, small and great, stand before God; and the books were opened: and another book was opened, which is the book of life: and the dead were judged out of those things which were written in the books, according to their works.
(KJV)

Don't you remember what Paul said that each soul must stand in front of the judgment seat of Christ, and all knees will bow to Him? (Rom.14:10).

Take a look at this verse...

The phrase "taste death" is referring to eternal death. That is to say some will not experience the wrath of God until the Son of Man comes in his kingdom.

Matthew 16:28 Assuredly, I say to you, there are some standing here who shall not taste death till they see the Son of Man coming in His kingdom.â€

When does the son of man come in his kingdom?

Matthew 24:29 “Immediately after the tribulation of those days the sun will be darkened, and the moon will not give its light; the stars will fall from heaven, and the powers of the heavens will be shaken. 30 Then the sign of the Son of Man will appear in heaven, and then all the tribes of the earth will mourn, and they will see the Son of Man coming on the clouds of heaven with power and great glory.

But according to millenium theory immediately after the great tribulation period the 1000 years starts.
So how can it be that Christ was saying there were some people around him who would not experience death until the 1000 year reign comes? Those people he was referring to are physically dead and must be raised from the dead if they are to be judged according to their works and then cast into damnation.

Our Lord Jesus also said this to the blind scribes and Pharisees...

Matt 26:64-65
64 Jesus saith unto him, Thou hast said: nevertheless I say unto you, Hereafter shall ye see the Son of man sitting on the right hand of power, and coming in the clouds of heaven.
65 Then the high priest rent his clothes, saying, He hath spoken blasphemy; what further need have we of witnesses? behold, now ye have heard His blasphemy.
(KJV)

Per that, just when would they 'see' our Lord Jesus sitting on the right hand of power, and coming in the clouds of heaven? Rev.1:7 declares how that is meant upon those, for it says every eye will then see Him. And when Rev.1:7 does happen, just HOW will those experience it? So no, those have yet to taste of the real 'death', which won't happen for them until after Christ's coming. See the comparison to what the "rich man" experienced in the torments of hell per the end of Luke 16.

Christ's future "thousand years" reign is not a theory at all. It is written. And it's clear you don't understand it because of a lack of Bible study on the resurrection and change at the "last trump" when He comes. You're simply thinking with your fleshy mind about it.

 

[veteran]

Don't take what I'm going to say here as mocking. It just doesn't make sense to me that heaven is rejoicing because Michael and his angels cast Satan into a human body. Notice that the war was not only between Satan and Michael... it was between SATAN'S ANGELS as well. So do all Satan's angels get cast into human bodies?

Revelation 12:9 So the great dragon was cast out, that serpent of old, called the Devil and Satan, who deceives the whole world; he was cast to the earth, and his angels were cast out with him.

Where does God's Word ever show Satan and his angels must be born in human flesh bodies to manifest upon this earth to people that are in flesh bodies? I sense you really don't believe that angels appeared to flesh people in all the instances recorded in God's Word. Has "Age of Reason" type thinking taken such a hold on your mind that you're not able to believe the testimonies written in God's Word about that? Also, didn't our Lord Jesus appear to His disciples in a closed off room after His resurrection, not having the need to come through the door?

Many seem to forget that God also created the angels with the image of man, meaning the outward appearance or likeness of man. Didn't you believe Genesis 19 in Lot's days about those two young men the sodomites wanted brought outside to defile them were actually angels manifested in their very presence? What Hebrews 13:2 which tells us to be mindful to be hospitable to strangers, for some have entertained angels and didn't know it? A lot of folks say... they believe The Word of God, but it's obvious some still have doubts in His Word they shouldn't have.

With regards to the great wonders and signs that occur... isn't that occurring already?
Just do a google search on "signs and wonders". I mean no offense to anybody that practice or are affiliated with this type of thing. But I think we need to be vigilant in case this these type of manifestations are not from God. I don't think we can say "oh well it occurs in the church so it must be God". What I find very alarming is that within the past century these types of thing became very prevalent within the church. What I find just as alarming is the complacency the church takes as if it's no big deal. No one is getting ready and no one seems to question, are these signs and miracles truly from God or is this a fullfillment of Christ's prophecy in Matthew 24 as well as Rev 13?

You mean manifestations some claim is of The Holy Spirit? No, those things aren't even close to the deceptive signs, wonders, and miracles the false messiah is going to do. Our Lord Jesus said the false messiah will do miracles so powerful in deception, that if possible, it would deceive His own elect. Just compare in your mind the difference between Satan and his angels being in full view on earth working miracles vs. the manifestations happening in the world today.

Christ keeps warning us that his coming will be like a thief in the night... so we'd better be watching.
If we are watching or are distracted by the wrong things, Christ's return will come upon us unexpectedly. If we are expecting a one man anti christ to arise when there is not clear evidence in scripture to support that one will, well... you'll be watching the wrong things and the day of the Lord will take you unexpectedly.

Our Lord's warning to watch in His Word DOES include a warning to look for a particular false one coming. Why do you think Apostle Paul gave those links to a false one sitting in the temple of God, showing himself that he is God? (2 Thess.2:3-4). What does it mean to omit the singular tense of that "antichirst must come" in favor of only of thinking of the "many antichrists" in 1 John 2:18?

Paul covered both the meaning of a singular antichrist, and the idea of many antichrists in 2 Thess.2. The "many antichrists" point is in 2 Thess.2:7 about the "mystery of iniquity". That mystery is about Satan's workers here on earth that serve him since the beginning. That appears to be another Bible subject you lack understanding in.

Ps 28:3-5
3 Draw me not away with the wicked, and with the workers of iniquity, which speak peace to their neighbours, but mischief is in their hearts.
4 Give them according to their deeds, and according to the wickedness of their endeavours: give them after the work of their hands; render to them their desert.
5 Because they regard not the works of the LORD, nor the operation of His hands, He shall destroy them, and not build them up.
(KJV)

Ps 37:1-2
1 Fret not thyself because of evildoers, neither be thou envious against the workers of iniquity.
2 For they shall soon be cut down like the grass, and wither as the green herb.
(KJV)

It also sounds like you really haven't understood about the "tares" of Matt.13. It is the disposition of many of my Christian brethren to turn the eye and not consider about the "workers of iniquity" which involves Satan's own elect servants that are here on earth to do his will. It's not in our makeup to think God would allow a group of evil workers upon this earth that have it in their very 'nature' to love doing evil and follow the devil literally. Yet that's exactly what God's Word reveals where the origin of most of the evil here on earth comes from, and even that some were 'ordained' by God to that condemnation (Jude 1). We can only hope that they will turn from evil and come to Christ. But at the same time, we are not to be fooled by their existence and working. That's... the "many antichrists" John was talking about, and the "mystery of iniquity" Paul mentioned. If that point is well understood, then it's not difficult at all to consider they have a leader over them, the devil himself. And that's who the real "antichrist" is.

 

[archangel_300]

OK, let me make myself clear on that. For example, in Rev.6 with the six seals, the fith and sixth seals are about the tribulation timing and then the end with Christ's coming. And then at the start of Rev.7, the subject is about the sealing of God's servants, a time prior to Christ's coming. Do you not understand that Rev.6 ends with Christ's coming, but Rev.7 moves back in time to before His coming? How does that show the Revelation chapters occur in "concurrent" or sequential order?

Likewise with Rev.10 that you asked about, it declares when the seventh angel sounds (7th trumpet), all the events for the end of this world with Christ's coming will be over. And then immediately in Rev.11 the timeline moves back to the 6th trumpet - 2nd woe period, and then moves forward to cover the 7th trumpet which Rev.10 mentioned. Does that show we can study the Revelation chapters as if their events happen in progressive order? No.

I'd say that the doctrine I hold about the two witnesses would have major problems if Revelation 10 weren't in the scriptures. Revelation 10 clearly indicates that after the 1/3 of mankind is destroyed and no believers are left on the planet, God comes down and is about to send judgment. The fact that the angel (symbolic of Christ) stands on the land and sea (all the earth) as well as the rainbow on the head (covenant that God will no longer destroy man) and the book in his hand (word of God) is clear indication that judgment has arrived. But no John is told to eat the book and he must *prophecy" again and immediately after that we see the two witnesses. Perhaps during the end time even though the 1/3 have been destroyed the gospel continues to be delivered. There is more proof that the two witnesses are the church than there is proof that the two witnesses are literal men that arise during the end time. That is why I link the death of the two witnesses to the death of the 1/3.

The fact is each trumpet is a woe.. which means the 6th trumpet and the death of 1/3 mankind is a woe. The seventh trumpet (just like the 6th trumpet) is a woe but is never described as being a woe as well.

 

[archangel_300]

If there is anyone left after Christ's coming that can still go through a flesh death (i.e., the first death), then it would mean our Lord Jesus and His Apostles lied about the resurrection of both the just and the unjust (like John 5:29). This is why John in Rev.20:12 still calls them "the dead" while they are standing in judgment.

Rev 20:12
12 And I saw the dead, small and great, stand before God; and the books were opened: and another book was opened, which is the book of life: and the dead were judged out of those things which were written in the books, according to their works.
(KJV)

Don't you remember what Paul said that each soul must stand in front of the judgment seat of Christ, and all knees will bow to Him? (Rom.14:10).

Well there is still a MAJOR problem with that because when Christ comes it will be the resurrection of the just/unjust. Now according to your theory this is their soul essence and this flies contrary to 1000 year millenium theory where it states the dead remain dead.

According to your theory Michael stands up during the great tribulation period and Daniel 12 is clearly referring to the great tribulation period as this is the "time of trouble". How come the Bible states that the "dead shall awake" and some will rise for judgment. It would seem that Daniel 12 is referring to Revelation 20:11-15. But according to millenium theory after the great tribulation period the 1000 year reign of Christ begins and the dead remain dead?

Daniel 12:1 “At that time Michael shall stand up,
The great prince who stands watch over the sons of your people;
And there shall be a time of trouble,
Such as never was since there was a nation,
Even to that time.
And at that time your people shall be delivered,
Every one who is found written in the book.
2 And many of those who sleep in the dust of the earth shall awake,
Some to everlasting life,
Some to shame and everlasting contempt.
3 Those who are wise shall shine
Like the brightness of the firmament,
And those who turn many to righteousness
Like the stars forever and ever.

Christ's future "thousand years" reign is not a theory at all. It is written. And it's clear you don't understand it because of a lack of Bible study on the resurrection and change at the "last trump" when He comes. You're simply thinking with your fleshy mind about it.

No I think the problem is you need to know how to properly study the bible. Proper biblical study is exegetical and extracts the message from the word rather than makes assertions into it. There are plenty of assertions that were made throughout your arguments that attempt to make the Bible say what it clearly doesn't. Millenium theory clearly contradicts the word of God on multiple levels.

Your Bible study seems to miss the fact that when the last trumpet sounds the dead are judged.
But according to millenium theory the dead are not raised at this time. Clear contradiction just the same as with Daniel 12.

Revelation 11:15 Then the seventh angel sounded: And there were loud voices in heaven, saying, “The kingdoms[f] of this world have become the kingdoms of our Lord and of His Christ, and He shall reign forever and ever!†16 And the twenty-four elders who sat before God on their thrones fell on their faces and worshiped God, 17 saying:
“ We give You thanks, O Lord God Almighty,
The One who is and who was and who is to come,[g]
Because You have taken Your great power and reigned.
18 The nations were angry, and Your wrath has come,
And the time of the dead, that they should be judged,
And that You should reward Your servants the prophets and the saints,
And those who fear Your name, small and great,
And should destroy those who destroy the earth.â€

 

[archangel_300]

Where does God's Word ever show Satan and his angels must be born in human flesh bodies to manifest upon this earth to people that are in flesh bodies? I sense you really don't believe that angels appeared to flesh people in all the instances recorded in God's Word. Has "Age of Reason" type thinking taken such a hold on your mind that you're not able to believe the testimonies written in God's Word about that? Also, didn't our Lord Jesus appear to His disciples in a closed off room after His resurrection, not having the need to come through the door?

Many seem to forget that God also created the angels with the image of man, meaning the outward appearance or likeness of man. Didn't you believe Genesis 19 in Lot's days about those two young men the sodomites wanted brought outside to defile them were actually angels manifested in their very presence? What Hebrews 13:2 which tells us to be mindful to be hospitable to strangers, for some have entertained angels and didn't know it? A lot of folks say... they believe The Word of God, but it's obvious some still have doubts in His Word they shouldn't have.

Debatable...
The word angel means "messenger" and is not necessarily a reference to a ministering heavenly spirit.
I tend to think that angels don't frequently manifest themselves in the flesh.
The way demons manifest themselves in the flesh is through possession or through deception. One may think they saw a person in the flesh when really it was all a mind game to begin with. But to say a demon/angel can manfest into the physical, that I'm very skeptical. But I think it could happen if God allows such as in the story of Lot.

 

[veteran]

I'd say that the doctrine I hold about the two witnesses would have major problems if Revelation 10 weren't in the scriptures. Revelation 10 clearly indicates that after the 1/3 of mankind is destroyed and no believers are left on the planet, God comes down and is about to send judgment. The fact that the angel (symbolic of Christ) stands on the land and sea (all the earth) as well as the rainbow on the head (covenant that God will no longer destroy man) and the book in his hand (word of God) is clear indication that judgment has arrived. But no John is told to eat the book and he must *prophecy" again and immediately after that we see the two witnesses. Perhaps during the end time even though the 1/3 have been destroyed the gospel continues to be delivered. There is more proof that the two witnesses are the church than there is proof that the two witnesses are literal men that arise during the end time. That is why I link the death of the two witnesses to the death of the 1/3.

Actually, Rev.10 is a parenthetical chapter, and does not have events that happen in between the 9th and 11th chapters, for John being told to eat the Book because he must prophesy again to many peoples and nations is connected with Rev.1:11. And when he heard the seven thunders, he began to write, but was told not to, and was shown there should be time no longer, for when the 7th angel sounds all the prophecy for this world time was to be finished. But in Rev.9 and 11, the events are about things that happen prior to that 7th angel sounding. The direct connection with that 7th angel sounding is only at the end of Rev.11 with Christ's coming on the 7th trumpet, which of course means the end of this world age. So Rev.10 is giving more info while giving a view forward in time after the 7th trumpet has sounded. John being told to "take" The Book and eat represents having God's Word sealed in his mind. For any of God's servants to be able to give His Testimony that must be done; it's an admonition for all of us.

The fact is each trumpet is a woe.. which means the 6th trumpet and the death of 1/3 mankind is a woe. The seventh trumpet (just like the 6th trumpet) is a woe but is never described as being a woe as well.

I don't know what Bible you're using, but mine (KJV) shows distinctly the 3rd woe happens with the 7th trumpet:

Rev 11:14-15
14 The second woe is past; and, behold, the third woe cometh quickly.
15 And the seventh angel sounded; and there were great voices in heaven, saying, The kingdoms of this world are become the kingdoms of our Lord, and of his Christ; and he shall reign for ever and ever.
(KJV)

 

[veteran]

Well there is still a MAJOR problem with that because when Christ comes it will be the resurrection of the just/unjust. Now according to your theory this is their soul essence and this flies contrary to 1000 year millenium theory where it states the dead remain dead.

There is no problem, because it's you that have not understood what God's Word teaches the resurrection is, because you're still assigning people to a flesh death in that time, i.e., the first death, when the only type of death remaining after Christ's coming Rev.20 declares is the "second death". And don't you recall our Lord Jesus saying to not fear those who can kill your flesh body and there's nothing more they can do, but to fear Him Who can destroy both body and soul in hell (geena, referring to the "lake of fire" event at the end of Rev.20)? What TYPE of body goes into the "lake of fire" after Christ's thousand years reign? Not a flesh body, but a "spiritual body", which is the resurrection body type Paul showed in 1 Cor.15. You've failed to keep the type of body for this world and the type of body that will manifest after Christ's coming separated, for all will be raised or changed to the resurrection type body, including the unjust, those that are resurrected to the "resurrection of damnation" per John 5:29.

According to your theory Michael stands up during the great tribulation period and Daniel 12 is clearly referring to the great tribulation period as this is the "time of trouble". How come the Bible states that the "dead shall awake" and some will rise for judgment. It would seem that Daniel 12 is referring to Revelation 20:11-15. But according to millenium theory after the great tribulation period the 1000 year reign of Christ begins and the dead remain dead?

I'm not creating any "theory" with these things; I'm following what God's Word shows very closely, for I believe God's Word as written. I never said Michael will "stand up" DURING the tribulation; that's your misunderstanding. Michael will "stand up" per Dan.12:1, and right AFTER that the time of trouble starts. The latter part of Dan.12:1 is about the resurrection timing, which is what trumpet per Revelation? The "last trump", the 7th trumpet, which is when Christ's coming happens. So I don't see how you could fail to miss that timing just because Dan.12:1 is covering time just prior to the start of the tribulation, and then to the time of Christ's coming and the resurrection. Learn to rightly divide the times in God's Word like our Lord Jesus showed in Luke 4, and you'll have less problems with OT prophecy.

Christ's future "thousand years" reign is not a theory at all. It is written. And it's clear you don't understand it because of a lack of Bible study on the resurrection and change at the "last trump" when He comes. You're simply thinking with your fleshy mind about it.

No I think the problem is you need to know how to properly study the bible. Proper biblical study is exegetical and extracts the message from the word rather than makes assertions into it. There are plenty of assertions that were made throughout your arguments that attempt to make the Bible say what it clearly doesn't. Millenium theory clearly contradicts the word of God on multiple levels.

I know you don't like me saying that, but sorry, it's true. You haven't actually understood what the resurrection is about, because still assigning the "dead" to a flesh death idea after Christ's coming and the resurrection is a huge mistake, and shows lack of understanding of what is going to happen at Christ's coming. Your argument of exegenesis lacks weight, because you showed problems with rightly dividing the times in the Dan.12:1 verse, which actually is very simple for us today to divide. Imagine how difficult it was for Daniel, since he didn't live to have our Lord's Book of Revelation available. But we have little excuse in not being able to go back to OT prophecy and rightly divide its times, except for some things which our Lord left as a mystery, which will also eventually be revealed. The contradiction about Christ's future "thousand years" reign is in your own mind, and not in His Word, for His Word declares it, even in OT prophecy. Afterall, all the Ezekiel chapters past number 39 are Milennium timing, and I have strong doubts you've even studied that.

Your Bible study seems to miss the fact that when the last trumpet sounds the dead are judged.
But according to millenium theory the dead are not raised at this time. Clear contradiction just the same as with Daniel 12.

In Matt.25 when our Lord Jesus showed at His coming, when He comes in glory and sits upon His throne, all nations will be gathered unto Him, and the goats will be separated from His sheep. That separation of the nations is a type of judgment, but it's not the great white throne judgment. Simply because many events are given in Rev.20 prior to the great white throne judgment and "lake of fire" events should have been very plain to you there is a gap of time in between Christ's coming and the "lake of fire" event. That's also shown in 1 Cor.15:23-28, for Paul shows Christ first must reign over all His enemies before God's Eternity will come.

Revelation 11:15 Then the seventh angel sounded: And there were loud voices in heaven, saying, “The kingdoms[f] of this world have become the kingdoms of our Lord and of His Christ, and He shall reign forever and ever!†16 And the twenty-four elders who sat before God on their thrones fell on their faces and worshiped God, 17 saying:
“ We give You thanks, O Lord God Almighty,
The One who is and who was and who is to come,[g]
Because You have taken Your great power and reigned.
18 The nations were angry, and Your wrath has come,
And the time of the dead, that they should be judged,
And that You should reward Your servants the prophets and the saints,
And those who fear Your name, small and great,
And should destroy those who destroy the earth.â€

It's too bad for many that we can't leave any part of God's Word out to come to His Truth. Those events after the 7th trumpet are compressed, just like the 1 Cor.15:23-28 events are too...

1 Cor 15:23-28
23 But every man in his own order: Christ the firstfruits; afterward they that are Christ's at His coming.
24 Then cometh the end, when He shall have delivered up the kingdom to God, even the Father; when He shall have put down all rule and all authority and power.

Paul notes there is a condition that must be met priot to "the end" with "when He shall have...", and it's about Christ ruling over all His enemies before final judgment will come.

25 For He must reign, till He hath put all enemies under His feet.

How much brain power does it take to understand that Christ's enemies MUST be present for Him to reign over them? How much does it require to grasp that Christ has not yet fulfilled that, not even today? The Rev.3:9 verse shows this kind of timing of Christ's Milennium reign over His enemies, but you obviously want to omit that verse too.

26 The last enemy that shall be destroyed is death.

Death is another title for the devil in Rev.6. He's the last enemy to be destroyed. So notice Paul gave that right AFTER his mention of our Lord ruling over all His enemies.

27 For He hath put all things under His feet. But when He saith, all things are put under Him, it is manifest that He is excepted, Which did put all things under Him.
28 And when all things shall be subdued unto Him, then shall the Son also Himself be subject unto Him That put all things under Him, that God may be all in all.
(KJV)

That last two verses reveal that The Father is "excepted" in that reign, which is another pointer about Christ's Milennial reign over His enemies.

I'm not trying to be mean by the following, but the end result of what you're doing with this matter is simply omitting Scripture which shows the time of Christ's "thousand years" reign written in Revelation 20 in favor of Scripture elsewhere which does not directly point to it. Yet just the Rev.20 events, and what Paul showed there in 1 Cor.15 should be enough (two Bible witnesses) to show you that Milennium time will happen.

 

[veteran]

Where does God's Word ever show Satan and his angels must be born in human flesh bodies to manifest upon this earth to people that are in flesh bodies? I sense you really don't believe that angels appeared to flesh people in all the instances recorded in God's Word. Has "Age of Reason" type thinking taken such a hold on your mind that you're not able to believe the testimonies written in God's Word about that? Also, didn't our Lord Jesus appear to His disciples in a closed off room after His resurrection, not having the need to come through the door?

Many seem to forget that God also created the angels with the image of man, meaning the outward appearance or likeness of man. Didn't you believe Genesis 19 in Lot's days about those two young men the sodomites wanted brought outside to defile them were actually angels manifested in their very presence? What Hebrews 13:2 which tells us to be mindful to be hospitable to strangers, for some have entertained angels and didn't know it? A lot of folks say... they believe The Word of God, but it's obvious some still have doubts in His Word they shouldn't have.

Debatable...
The word angel means "messenger" and is not necessarily a reference to a ministering heavenly spirit.
I tend to think that angels don't frequently manifest themselves in the flesh.
The way demons manifest themselves in the flesh is through possession or through deception. One may think they saw a person in the flesh when really it was all a mind game to begin with. But to say a demon/angel can manfest into the physical, that I'm very skeptical. But I think it could happen if God allows such as in the story of Lot.

Satan is shown to be a cherub per Ezek.28, and he's also called the angel of the bottomless pit, so he's called an angel too. It means God's Word when speaking of 'angels' means of the heavenly order, so you can't just assign the word messenger like it has nothing to do with the heavenly order of those called angels. I mean those learned in God's Word simply aren't going to believe you're sincere with posing such an argument.

II Ki 6:15-17
15 And when the servant of the man of God was risen early, and gone forth, behold, an host compassed the city both with horses and chariots. And his servant said unto him, Alas, my master! how shall we do?
16 And he answered, "Fear not: for they that be with us are more than they that be with them.
17 And Elisha prayed, and said, LORD, I pray Thee, open his eyes, that he may see. And the LORD opened the eyes of the young man; and he saw: and, behold, the mountain was full of horses and chariots of fire round about Elisha.(KJV)

What is it you think Elisha's servant saw once God opened his eyes? Demons?

Or in Genesis 18 with the three men that appeared to Abraham, with all three being able to eat and drink what Abraham prepared for them. Does that mean they were in flesh bodies like we have? What about our Lord's resurrected Body, since He ate fish and honeycomb, was it of the earthly or heavenly order? Yet our Lord Jesus was able to appear in the midst of His disciples in a closed room without walking through the door. How was that possible if His resurrected Body was of this earthly dimension? I know many struggle with the two dimensions of the earthly and the heavenly, but I think God's Word shows us enough to understand the differences between the two.
.

 

[archangel_300]

There is no problem, because it's you that have not understood what God's Word teaches the resurrection is, because you're still assigning people to a flesh death in that time, i.e., the first death, when the only type of death remaining after Christ's coming Rev.20 declares is the "second death". And don't you recall our Lord Jesus saying to not fear those who can kill your flesh body and there's nothing more they can do, but to fear Him Who can destroy both body and soul in hell (geena, referring to the "lake of fire" event at the end of Rev.20)? What TYPE of body goes into the "lake of fire" after Christ's thousand years reign? Not a flesh body, but a "spiritual body", which is the resurrection body type Paul showed in 1 Cor.15. You've failed to keep the type of body for this world and the type of body that will manifest after Christ's coming separated, for all will be raised or changed to the resurrection type body, including the unjust, those that are resurrected to the "resurrection of damnation" per John 5:29.

You are missing the whole point. The issue is not whether or not people are raised with physical vs spiritual bodies. That's NOT the issue here. The issue is you have a contradiction with the millenium theory because in the book of Daniel AFTER the tribulation it states that some will arise to "everlasting shame and contempt". But in Revelation 20 when the millenium BEGINS the dead are not raised...
We both agree that the dead here is a reference to unbelievers. You have also agreed that the millenium occurs AFTER the tribulation when Christ returns. Whether or not physical/spiritual resurrection occurs is totally irrelevant. The fact is they are NOT raised to everlasting shame and contempt. You have a MAJOR contradiction.

That means that Daniel 12 is referring to Revelation 20 when judgment begins AFTER the millenium. Which means that the millenium has already passed. If that's the case the millenium is occurring in our PRESENT time period NOW (provided we have not crossed over into the great tribulation period).

 

[archangel_300]

Satan is shown to be a cherub per Ezek.28, and he's also called the angel of the bottomless pit, so he's called an angel too. It means God's Word when speaking of 'angels' means of the heavenly order, so you can't just assign the word messenger like it has nothing to do with the heavenly order of those called angels. I mean those learned in God's Word simply aren't going to believe you're sincere with posing such an argument.

II Ki 6:15-17
15 And when the servant of the man of God was risen early, and gone forth, behold, an host compassed the city both with horses and chariots. And his servant said unto him, Alas, my master! how shall we do?
16 And he answered, "Fear not: for they that be with us are more than they that be with them.
17 And Elisha prayed, and said, LORD, I pray Thee, open his eyes, that he may see. And the LORD opened the eyes of the young man; and he saw: and, behold, the mountain was full of horses and chariots of fire round about Elisha.(KJV)

What is it you think Elisha's servant saw once God opened his eyes? Demons?

Nowhere does it say that they became physically manifest in flesh/blood.
Elisha's servant DID NOT physically see with his physical eyes anyone protecting Elisha. It took the Lord to open his eyes to see the spirit realm in order to know that indeed Elisha was protected.

Or in Genesis 18 with the three men that appeared to Abraham, with all three being able to eat and drink what Abraham prepared for them. Does that mean they were in flesh bodies like we have? What about our Lord's resurrected Body, since He ate fish and honeycomb, was it of the earthly or heavenly order? Yet our Lord Jesus was able to appear in the midst of His disciples in a closed room without walking through the door. How was that possible if His resurrected Body was of this earthly dimension? I know many struggle with the two dimensions of the earthly and the heavenly, but I think God's Word shows us enough to understand the differences between the two.
.

The 3 men that visited Abraham was the Lord Himself. And the Lord can manifest himself into a physical flesh and bone body if He wishes to. These were not mere angels (Genesis 18:1).

In the book of Revelation, Christ tells John to write what he sees and send it to the seven churches in Asia. Notice that Christ addresses each church starting with "To the angel in the church of (name)". Do you suppose that each church was lead by a heavenly angel or is it a reference to the lead minister?

 

[veteran]

You are missing the whole point. The issue is not whether or not people are raised with physical vs spiritual bodies. That's NOT the issue here. The issue is you have a contradiction with the millenium theory because in the book of Daniel AFTER the tribulation it states that some will arise to "everlasting shame and contempt". But in Revelation 20 when the millenium BEGINS the dead are not raised...
We both agree that the dead here is a reference to unbelievers. You have also agreed that the millenium occurs AFTER the tribulation when Christ returns. Whether or not physical/spiritual resurrection occurs is totally irrelevant. The fact is they are NOT raised to everlasting shame and contempt. You have a MAJOR contradiction.

It's not me that's missing the point brother, because your choosing to interpret the word "dead" of Rev.20:5 as if they are still in graves after the resurrection is what's causing the contradiction in your mind. And no doubt men's traditions that have fallen to that same interpretation no don't understand it either. For you to be correct in interpeting it that way, Scripture like John 5:29 and Acts 24:15, and several more like it would have to cease to exist.

Acts 24:15
15 And have hope toward God, which they themselves also allow, that there shall be a resurrection of the dead, both of the just and unjust.
(KJV)

Why did Apostle Paul have hope there would be a resurrection of the dead, both of the just and the unjust?

That means that Daniel 12 is referring to Revelation 20 when judgment begins AFTER the millenium. Which means that the millenium has already passed. If that's the case the millenium is occurring in our PRESENT time period NOW (provided we have not crossed over into the great tribulation period).

Dan.12:1 is covering time just prior to the tribulation, and then the tribulation ("time of trouble" as it says), and then the resurrection when Christ comes. It's that simple.

And false ideas that we're already in Christ's "thousand years" reign does not fit today at all, for to believe that Preterist lie it would mean the resurrection would have to already have happened, with Christ returned on earth per Zechariah 14 to the Mount of Olives, and reigning from Jerusalem with His gathered saints at the "camp of the saints" on earth. The false idea that Christ's Milennium has already started today is prepostrous. It's a false idea planted by false prophets.

 

[veteran]

Nowhere does it say that they became physically manifest in flesh/blood.
Elisha's servant DID NOT physically see with his physical eyes anyone protecting Elisha. It took the Lord to open his eyes to see the spirit realm in order to know that indeed Elisha was protected.

Does that mean you're willing to accept that angels in God's Word are not in the flesh, and are of the heavenly order, and are a reality?

Or in Genesis 18 with the three men that appeared to Abraham, with all three being able to eat and drink what Abraham prepared for them. Does that mean they were in flesh bodies like we have? What about our Lord's resurrected Body, since He ate fish and honeycomb, was it of the earthly or heavenly order? Yet our Lord Jesus was able to appear in the midst of His disciples in a closed room without walking through the door. How was that possible if His resurrected Body was of this earthly dimension? I know many struggle with the two dimensions of the earthly and the heavenly, but I think God's Word shows us enough to understand the differences between the two.
.

The 3 men that visited Abraham was the Lord Himself. And the Lord can manifest himself into a physical flesh and bone body if He wishes to. These were not mere angels (Genesis 18:1).

That's very correct, One of the "three men" which appeared to Abraham at his tent door was our LORD. The other two men were the two angels which He sent into Sodom to get Lot's people out. But did you notice what those "three men" did when Abraham served food?

Gen 18:1-8
1 And the LORD appeared unto him in the plains of Mamre: and he sat in the tent door in the heat of the day;
2 And he lift up his eyes and looked, and, lo, three men stood by him: and when he saw them, he ran to meet them from the tent door, and bowed himself toward the ground,
3 And said, My Lord, if now I have found favour in thy sight, pass not away, I pray thee, from thy servant:
4 Let a little water, I pray you, be fetched, and wash your feet, and rest yourselves under the tree:
5 And I will fetch a morsel of bread, and comfort ye your hearts; after that ye shall pass on: for therefore are ye come to your servant. And they said, So do, as thou hast said.
6 And Abraham hastened into the tent unto Sarah, and said, Make ready quickly three measures of fine meal, knead it, and make cakes upon the hearth.
7 And Abraham ran unto the herd, and fetcht a calf tender and good, and gave it unto a young man; and he hasted to dress it.
8 And he took butter, and milk, and the calf which he had dressed, and set it before them; and he stood by them under the tree, and they did eat.
(KJV)

Our LORD and those two angels with Him were not in flesh bodies, so HOW were they able to eat and drink what Abraham prepared for them?

Yet there they were, appeared to Abraham on the earth as "three men", and even went into Sodom and Gomorrah and appeared to Lot, and obviously to the sodomites outside Lot's house also. The Scripture shows the sodomites didn't even know the two men were actually angels. That means they appeared in this earthly dimension to Abraham and Lot, while STILL being in heavenly bodies. The other thing hard for many to understand is how they sat and ate and drank what Abraham prepared for them, while in their heavenly type bodies. Thus it's no mystery that Paul said to be mindful to entertain strangers, for some have entertained angels and were unaware they were angels. So how is that not their appearing in this PHYSICAL earthly dimension?

This is apparently one of the major matters you struggle with from God's Word, and you really do need to grasp it so you don't go astray in wrong interpretation of lot of God's Word as written. The excellent Bible scholar E.W. Bullinger once said that men's traditions are like a tether, which is a length of rope tied to a pole. It only allows one to extend out to a certain distance from the pole, and no farther. Thus that tether limits how much one will understand in God's Word. It's the same idea our Lord showed with not putting new wine in old bottles lest the bottle breaks.

In the book of Revelation, Christ tells John to write what he sees and send it to the seven churches in Asia. Notice that Christ addresses each church starting with "To the angel in the church of (name)". Do you suppose that each church was lead by a heavenly angel or is it a reference to the lead minister?

It's part of what the seven candlesticks represent according to the heavenly order of Christ's Church. This is why our Lord's Messages to the seven Churches in Asia also represents seven types of Churches present on earth today. And only TWO of the seven our Lord had no problem with. It's main importance for today is for how we are to look and note which of the seven types of Churches we might be among all the way up to the end of this world.

 

[jasoncran]

:D praise the lord that he wants to sup with us!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!