Hey You Pre-Tribbers!!!

[archangel_300]

Most of the first five verses of Rev.12 are a summary from the time of Satan's original rebellion down to the future time when Christ will rule all nations with a rod of iron, which is Milennial timing. The woman there is Israel as those symbols were first given in Joseph's dream, Gen.37 I think. The "red dragon" is Satan, because Rev.12:9 does define that as one of his many titles. Rev.12:3-4 happened long ago though, because that's about the time when the devil first rebelled against God, and drew one third of the angels (stars) into rebellion with him. A system beast with only seven crowns is linked to that event of Satan's original rebellion. The one in Rev.13 has ten crowns instead.

Then at Rev.12:6 forward, that's a jump to the tribulation timing. I do not hold to the idea that every prophecy in God's Word is meant as a day=a year application, but only where God's Word says it does. I see the 1260 days, or 42 months, or three and one half years according to how it's written literally. If that were not so, then for 1260 years God's two witnesses should have been prophesying in Jerusalem, yet we haven't seen that event happen.

I would entertain the idea that the war in heaven was the original rebellion of Satan but
the only problem I have with that idea is this verse below.

Revelation 12:10 Then I heard a loud voice saying in heaven, “Now salvation, and strength, and the kingdom of our God, and the power of His Christ have come, for the accuser of our brethren, who accused them before our God day and night, has been cast down.

The time of the cross was when the salvation, strength, and the kingdom of God and power of Christ have come. That is the time that salvation did not become a theoretical possibility, it became a reality and Christs atonement for sin solidified God's plan of redemption. Because of the cross Satan has been cast down as he no longer has the capability to prevent the salvation plan of God. This did not occur in the garden of Eden.

The woman is the Israel of God, not the nation of Israel. It can't be because the child is Christ and AFTER the child was caught up to heaven the woman fled into the wilderness where she was fed.

Especially note that after the dragon is cast out of heaven, the Scripture makes mention of those who overcame him through the Blood of The Lamb Jesus Christ. That's a pointer to the tribulation time, not the whole of Church history. We also know for sure that casting out of Rev.12:7-9 is not about Satan's original rebellion of old either, since Christ had not yet come to die on the cross back then. Rev.12:3-4 is to show Satan's first casting out, and that in contrast to his final casting down to earth for the future great tribulation.

Could you explain your position a little more? I'm confused as to how "overcame through the blood of the Lamb" relates to the great tribulation time and not the whole of church history? Please explain more about the "first casting out" versus "final casting out"? I only see one casting out demonstrated in Revelation 12.

That symbolic flood is also linked to events in Rev.9 about the locust army involving the 5th and 6th trumpets. All that is still future to us, because the tribulation has not started yet. Per OT history, that flood of waters was used as a symbol for how the enemy would come upon Israel for a spoil. The king of Assyria did that literally by removing all the ten tribes out of the land, and then later the king of Babylon did that when he destroyed Jerusalem and took Judah captive to Babylon. All that OT history serves as an ensample of the end. The main difference is historically it was a literal time of destruction, while in the end it's going to be about spiritual destruction through lies that come out of the mouths of the dragon and his locust army of Rev.9.

I will go over the verses in Isaiah that you mentioned, unfortunately I don't have much time right now.

The idea of the woman fleeing into the wilderness is metaphorical about not being deceived, being under God's protection and sealing. That idea appears again later in Rev.12:14 after the dragon is cast to the earth. The war in the last verse is about the end tribulation timing, especially the very end when the devil will get fed up and seek to destroy Israel totally (per the army that comes out of the northern quarters in Ezekiel 38 & 39. That's the Rev.16 Armageddon event when The LORD is going to rise up off His Throne and step in to destroy that army, which ushers in the Day of The Lord events and Christ's coming.

It's possible that Rev.12:6 may represent the first half of Daniel's "one week" (7 years), while Rev.12:14 after the dragon is cast down to the earth (again) would represent the last half of the tribulaton.

I agree that the woman fleeing into the wilderness is about God's divine protection.

First off Revelation 12:14 *does NOT* state that the dragon is cast out again. The cast out here when read in context is referring to VERSE 9

Let's pull up these verses.
Revelation 12:9 So the great dragon was cast out, that serpent of old, called the Devil and Satan, who deceives the whole world; he was cast to the earth, and his angels were cast out with him.

Revelation 12:13-14 Now when the dragon saw that he had been cast to the earth, he persecuted the woman who gave birth to the male Child. But the woman was given two wings of a great eagle, that she might fly into the wilderness to her place, where she is nourished for a time and times and half a time, from the presence of the serpent

Here's the problem that I have with Rev 12:6 representing the first half of Daniel's "one week".
AFTER the war in heaven, Satan is cast down THEN the woman flees into the wilderness.

How can the war in heaven (verse 7) refer to the great tribulation, when AFTER this war occurs, Satan then persecutes the woman and then she flees into the wilderness?

According to your theory, the woman would have to flee FIRST (first half tribulation) then the dragon would have to be cast out (second half tribulation). This is not referring to the tribulation period *at all*.

Revelation 12:13 Now when the dragon saw that he had been cast to the earth, he persecuted the woman who gave birth to the male Child. 14 But the woman was given two wings of a great eagle, that she might fly into the wilderness to her place, where she is nourished for a time and times and half a time, from the presence of the serpent.

This is referring to the time Satan was cast out because the crucifixion of Christ became a reality.
Now Satan tries to persecute the church and destroy it but the church is protected and spiritually fed for 1260 days.

I can go into detail about the two witnesses and how they are a symbolic representation of the church.
I can demonstrate how this is a different facet of revelation 12. I'll have to do that some other time though.

 

[glorydaz]

I would entertain the idea that the war in heaven was the original rebellion of Satan but
the only problem I have with that idea is this verse below.

Revelation 12:10 Then I heard a loud voice saying in heaven, “Now salvation, and strength, and the kingdom of our God, and the power of His Christ have come, for the accuser of our brethren, who accused them before our God day and night, has been cast down.

The time of the cross was when the salvation, strength, and the kingdom of God and power of Christ have come. That is the time that salvation did not become a theoretical possibility, it became a reality and Christs atonement for sin solidified God's plan of redemption. Because of the cross Satan has been cast down as he no longer has the capability to prevent the salvation plan of God. This did not occur in the garden of Eden.

I agree...

 

[archangel_300]

Ok let's talk about the two witnesses and why I don't believe this is referring to the great tribulation period or end time prophets. One of the things you have to realize about the book of revelation is that it comes full circle. It shows the plan of God's salvation throughout history and ends with judgment. This cycle continues repeatedly throughout the book again and again and sometimes it abruptly stops while starting up all over again in the next chapter.

As stated in my previous post, whenever I see 42 months, 1260 days, time times half time... I can conclude that this is referring to the entire church age (unless someone can prove otherwise) The events that occur within the context of these time periods mentioned all occur simultaneously with one another. One passage shows one aspect while another passage shows a different aspect.

Let's take a look at how lampstands are used in the scripture.

Matthew 5:14 “You are the light of the world. A city that is set on a hill cannot be hidden. 15 Nor do they light a lamp and put it under a basket, but on a lampstand, and it gives light to all who are in the house. 16 Let your light so shine before men, that they may see your good works and glorify your Father in heaven.

Revelation 1:20 The mystery of the seven stars which you saw in My right hand, and the seven golden lampstands: The seven stars are the angels of the seven churches, and the seven lampstands which you saw are the seven churches.

We as the body of believers in Christ are the light of the world. We are the lampstands and without the body of Christ the world would reside in spiritual darkness. The lampstands also have symbolic meaning if you look at the book of Zechariah. They are the two anointed ones of the earth.

2 Corinthians 13:1
This will be the third time I am coming to you. “By the mouth of two or three witnesses every word shall be established.â€

What did Jesus do when he preached the gospel? He sent the apostles out two by two to preach the word of God.

Mark 6:7 And He called the twelve to Himself, and began to send them out two by two, and gave them power over unclean spirits.... verse 12 So they went out and preached that people should repent.

So let's take a look at Revelation 11.
Notice in verse 3... God gives his witnesses "power" and they will prophesy (meaning to preach) for 1260 days

Revelation 11:3 And I will give power to my two witnesses, and they will prophesy one thousand two hundred and sixty days, clothed in sackcloth.â€4 These are the two olive trees and the two lampstands standing before the God of the earth.

The two witnesses received power at Pentecost, that power is the power of the Holy Spirit. And henceforth they are to be witnesses and testify of the gospel of Jesus Christ starting at Jerusalem and going forth in an even broader area of scope all the way across the entire world.

Acts 1:8
But you shall receive power when the Holy Spirit has come upon you; and you shall be witnesses to Me in Jerusalem, and in all Judea and Samaria, and to the end of the earth.â€

Notice that this is the same time period in which the woman flees into the wilderness as she begins her flight to safety where she has a place that is prepared for her and is fed.

Revelation 12:5 She bore a male Child who was to rule all nations with a rod of iron. And her Child was caught up to God and His throne. 6 Then the woman fled into the wilderness, where she has a place prepared by God, that they should feed her there one thousand two hundred and sixty days.

Acts 1:9 Now when He had spoken these things, while they watched, He was taken up, and a cloud received Him out of their sight. 10 And while they looked steadfastly toward heaven as He went up, behold, two men stood by them in white apparel, 11 who also said, “Men of Galilee, why do you stand gazing up into heaven? This same Jesus, who was taken up from you into heaven, will so come in like manner as you saw Him go into heaven.â€

At the time of pentecost this was the start of the 1260 days, it was the start of the church's flight into the world.

During the 1260 days no one can harm these two witnesses. They are completely untouchable, they torment the earth with the power of their testimony, the preaching of Gods word.

Revelation 11:5 And if anyone wants to harm them, fire proceeds from their mouth and devours their enemies. And if anyone wants to harm them, he must be killed in this manner. 6 These have power to shut heaven, so that no rain falls in the days of their prophecy; and they have power over waters to turn them to blood, and to strike the earth with all plagues, as often as they desire.

But lets take a look at what happens AFTER the 1260 days. I suspect the beast that ascends out of the bottomless pit is a reference to Revelation 20 when Satan is loosed. I also suspect this is the same event that occurs in Revelation 9:14-15 when the four angels at the Euphrates are released. The beast will be able to make war and kill the two witnesses so that they become dead, but after a short time period the rapture occurs.

Revelation 11:7 When they finish their testimony, the beast that ascends out of the bottomless pit will make war against them, overcome them, and kill them. 8 And their dead bodies will lie in the street of the great city which spiritually is called Sodom and Egypt, where also our[c] Lord was crucified. 9 Then those from the peoples, tribes, tongues, and nations will see their dead bodies three-and-a-half days, and not allow[d] their dead bodies to be put into graves. 10 And those who dwell on the earth will rejoice over them, make merry, and send gifts to one another, because these two prophets tormented those who dwell on the earth. 13 In the same hour there was a great earthquake, and a tenth of the city fell. In the earthquake seven thousand people were killed, and the rest were afraid and gave glory to the God of heaven. 14 The second woe is past. Behold, the third woe is coming quickly.

It's the end of the world and Christ rules and reigns forever and ever.

Revelation 11:15 Then the seventh angel sounded: And there were loud voices in heaven, saying, “The kingdoms[f] of this world have become the kingdoms of our Lord and of His Christ, and He shall reign forever and ever!â€

Again this is the reason why I believe 1260 days is a reference not to the great tribulation period but to the entire church age. I don't believe the two prophets are "end time tribulation" prophets.

If someone wants to demonstrate that the two witnesses are end time prophets and Revelation 11 is referring to the great tribulation period please do so. But please back your conclusion with scripture.

 

[JudaicChristian]

Daniel 12:12
Blessed is the one who waits for and reaches the end of the 1,335 days.

 

[archangel_300]

Daniel 12:12
Blessed is the one who waits for and reaches the end of the 1,335 days.

I have no idea what that is. The 1260 days does not include the great tribulation. Yes the world will continue past 1260 days, but whatever that amount of time is, it is a very short time period. For all we know and care about after the 1260 days is up it's as good as the end of the world.

One thing that Daniel does state is:

Daniel 12:7
Then I heard the man clothed in linen, who was above the waters of the river, when he held up his right hand and his left hand to heaven, and swore by Him who lives forever, that it shall be for a time, times, and half a time; AND WHEN the power of the holy people has been completely shattered, all these things shall be finished.

 

[veteran]

Who do you think the serpent was , that was in the garden of Eden ?

Rev.12:9 and 20:2 shows us "that old serpent" is yet another title for Satan himself.

 

[veteran]

I would entertain the idea that the war in heaven was the original rebellion of Satan but the only problem I have with that idea is this verse below.

Revelation 12:10 Then I heard a loud voice saying in heaven, “Now salvation, and strength, and the kingdom of our God, and the power of His Christ have come, for the accuser of our brethren, who accused them before our God day and night, has been cast down.

The time of the cross was when the salvation, strength, and the kingdom of God and power of Christ have come. That is the time that salvation did not become a theoretical possibility, it became a reality and Christs atonement for sin solidified God's plan of redemption. Because of the cross Satan has been cast down as he no longer has the capability to prevent the salvation plan of God. This did not occur in the garden of Eden.

Notice in Rev.12 as a result of that war, the dragon (Satan) is cast down to the 'earth', not down to the pit. In John 14:30, our Lord warned that the prince of this world cometh. The false one Paul mentioned that must come and be revealed prior to Christ's coming was also prophecy after our Lord's crucifixion and resurrection. So no, the war of Rev.12:7 was not when Christ defeated the devil on the cross, but for when Satan and his angels are cast down to the this earth for the tribulation timing of our near future. That's why it's linked to the Dan.12:1 event of the time when Michael will "stand up" (make a stand), and then a time of great trouble begins on earth.

The woman is the Israel of God, not the nation of Israel. It can't be because the child is Christ and AFTER the child was caught up to heaven the woman fled into the wilderness where she was fed.

Those symbols of Rev.12:1 about the symbolic "woman" were first given in Gen.37 with Joseph's dream about his mother, father, and 11 brethren...

Gen 37:9 Behold, I have dreamed a dream more; and, behold, the sun and the moon and the eleven stars made obeisance to me.
10 And he told it to his father, and to his brethren: and his father rebuked him, and said unto him, What is this dream that thou hast dreamed? Shall I and thy mother and thy brethren indeed come to bow down ourselves to thee to the earth?
(KJV)

So that's definitely about literal Israel, allowing God's Word to interpret those symbols for us.

Like I said, Rev.12:1-5 is like a summary of God's Plan of Salvation. Israel, the woman with a crown of 12 stars (12 tribes) is first ordained "in heaven", and she was with child pained to be delivered, which represents the start of the Seed of the Woman (Israel) that Christ would be born through. Then the time jumps back to Satan's original rebellion, and then forward again in his waiting to devour the woman's child as soon as it was born (representing death of Abel, Satan's first attack upon the Seed of the woman). Then the idea of Christ's birth, death and resurrection with being caught up to God's Throne. And then Christ's future "thousand years" reign with a rod of iron with His elect priests and kings.

Because Rev.12:17 shows it's also about those who have the testimony of Jesus Christ, that of course means this is about the Israel of God, which means both the remnant seed of Israel that have believed along with believing Gentiles, together as one. God's Israel is the same Israel it's always been, and will always exist, so it's best not to confuse the unbelieving seed with those of the seed that did and have believed. I know a lot of today's Churches teach that God is done with the nation of Israel, but all will eventually discover when our Lord does return just how He has continued to bless the seed Israel and kept His promises to them among the Gentiles.

Especially note that after the dragon is cast out of heaven, the Scripture makes mention of those who overcame him through the Blood of The Lamb Jesus Christ. That's a pointer to the tribulation time, not the whole of Church history. We also know for sure that casting out of Rev.12:7-9 is not about Satan's original rebellion of old either, since Christ had not yet come to die on the cross back then. Rev.12:3-4 is to show Satan's first casting out, and that in contrast to his final casting down to earth for the future great tribulation.

[quote"archangel"]Could you explain your position a little more? I'm confused as to how "overcame through the blood of the Lamb" relates to the great tribulation time and not the whole of church history? Please explain more about the "first casting out" versus "final casting out"? I only see one casting out demonstrated in Revelation 12.

If you will go over the parable in Ezek.31, and note how that relates to Satan's original rebellion, it might answer a lot for you. In so many words, Satan's rebellion of old involved an earthly kingdom, much like the one world government idea now being setup on earth. That's why we're given the contrast between the beast system of old in Rev.12:3-4 that had 7 crowns vs. the one for today in Rev.13:1 that's to have 10 crowns. All that relates also to why God used the historical kings of Assyria, Babylon, Pharaoh, etc., as types, while including passages about Satan's original rebellion of old (like Ezek.28; 31 and Isaiah 14). It's not a difficult Bible study, but a very profound study, and a very important message.

In our Lord's Messages to the seven Churches in Asia, He mentions the idea of 'overcoming', staying the course in His work, and that idea continues through Revelation with those whom God seals for the tribulation (Rev.21:7 in contrast with Rev.2:7; 11; 17; 26; Rev.3:5; 12; 21). Apostle Paul declared the same idea in Ephesian 6 about making "a stand" in the "evil day". It was about tribulation the early Church sufferred too, but carried to Rev.21:7 must apply overcoming also to the tribulation in the end. Even in Rev.11, we're shown there are two candlesticks that stand with God's two witnesses. At the end of Rev.1, our Lord said the seven candlesticks are the seven churches. So the seven churches are also symbolic of endtime churches.

That symbolic flood is also linked to events in Rev.9 about the locust army involving the 5th and 6th trumpets. All that is still future to us, because the tribulation has not started yet. Per OT history, that flood of waters was used as a symbol for how the enemy would come upon Israel for a spoil. The king of Assyria did that literally by removing all the ten tribes out of the land, and then later the king of Babylon did that when he destroyed Jerusalem and took Judah captive to Babylon. All that OT history serves as an ensample of the end. The main difference is historically it was a literal time of destruction, while in the end it's going to be about spiritual destruction through lies that come out of the mouths of the dragon and his locust army of Rev.9.

I will go over the verses in Isaiah that you mentioned, unfortunately I don't have much time right now.

The idea of the woman fleeing into the wilderness is metaphorical about not being deceived, being under God's protection and sealing. That idea appears again later in Rev.12:14 after the dragon is cast to the earth. The war in the last verse is about the end tribulation timing, especially the very end when the devil will get fed up and seek to destroy Israel totally (per the army that comes out of the northern quarters in Ezekiel 38 & 39. That's the Rev.16 Armageddon event when The LORD is going to rise up off His Throne and step in to destroy that army, which ushers in the Day of The Lord events and Christ's coming.

It's possible that Rev.12:6 may represent the first half of Daniel's "one week" (7 years), while Rev.12:14 after the dragon is cast down to the earth (again) would represent the last half of the tribulaton.

I agree that the woman fleeing into the wilderness is about God's divine protection.

First off Revelation 12:14 *does NOT* state that the dragon is cast out again. The cast out here when read in context is referring to VERSE 9

Let's pull up these verses.
Revelation 12:9 So the great dragon was cast out, that serpent of old, called the Devil and Satan, who deceives the whole world; he was cast to the earth, and his angels were cast out with him.

Revelation 12:13-14 Now when the dragon saw that he had been cast to the earth, he persecuted the woman who gave birth to the male Child. But the woman was given two wings of a great eagle, that she might fly into the wilderness to her place, where she is nourished for a time and times and half a time, from the presence of the serpent

Here's the problem that I have with Rev 12:6 representing the first half of Daniel's "one week".
AFTER the war in heaven, Satan is cast down THEN the woman flees into the wilderness.

How can the war in heaven (verse 7) refer to the great tribulation, when AFTER this war occurs, Satan then persecutes the woman and then she flees into the wilderness?

The final symbolic "one week" of Dan.9 represents 7 years per that prophecy. And the prophecy tells of a certain event to occur in the midst or middle of the week. That means two periods of three and one half years (or 2 periods of 1260 days). Would God protect His servants with His sealing during both 1260 day periods? I think so, definitely. I merely suggested that Rev.12:6 could represent the first half of the 7 years, and then the dragon is cast to the earth in the midst of Daniel's "one week" to cause the events of the last 1260 day period, the period when God's two witnesses are given to prophesy and be killed just prior to Christ's coming on the 3rd woe (Rev.11).

According to your theory, the woman would have to flee FIRST (first half tribulation) then the dragon would have to be cast out (second half tribulation). This is not referring to the tribulation period *at all*.

Revelation 12:13 Now when the dragon saw that he had been cast to the earth, he persecuted the woman who gave birth to the male Child. 14 But the woman was given two wings of a great eagle, that she might fly into the wilderness to her place, where she is nourished for a time and times and half a time, from the presence of the serpent.

This is referring to the time Satan was cast out because the crucifixion of Christ became a reality.
Now Satan tries to persecute the church and destroy it but the church is protected and spiritually fed for 1260 days.

I can go into detail about the two witnesses and how they are a symbolic representation of the church.
I can demonstrate how this is a different facet of revelation 12. I'll have to do that some other time though.

The Rev.11 events about God's two witnesses is a very specific prophesy involving two men, because it's the dead bodies of two of God's servants are to be left laying in the street (plaza) of Jerusalem for all the nations to see, for three and one half days, and then they resurrect. That's way too much detail that can easily be known when fulfilled, and yet that event has NEVER come to pass in Church history. There are those who often 'spiritualize' literal prophecies in God's Word, and most often that's done to fit a particular doctrine of man. I wouldn't suggest doing that with the Rev.11 prophecy.

 

[veteran]

Ok let's talk about the two witnesses and why I don't believe this is referring to the great tribulation period or end time prophets. One of the things you have to realize about the book of revelation is that it comes full circle. It shows the plan of God's salvation throughout history and ends with judgment. This cycle continues repeatedly throughout the book again and again and sometimes it abruptly stops while starting up all over again in the next chapter.

As stated in my previous post, whenever I see 42 months, 1260 days, time times half time... I can conclude that this is referring to the entire church age (unless someone can prove otherwise) The events that occur within the context of these time periods mentioned all occur simultaneously with one another. One passage shows one aspect while another passage shows a different aspect.

What you're talking about is a type of Historicist interpretation of Revelation. There are some portions of Revelation that point to history, the seven Churches in Asia do especially. But there's so much more prophecy given that lines up with what God gave the OT prophets to say about the end of this world, that it's impossible to treat it all as history, or to simply focus on what theological seminaries call "the Church age". There is a concerted effort by some today to create blindness to the endtime events in order to help Satan's coming deception to become more bountiful. The time is getting too short today to be falling into that kind of trap, because it means to throw away the warnings our Lord Jesus gave us for the end of this world.

Let's take a look at how lampstands are used in the scripture.

Matthew 5:14 “You are the light of the world. A city that is set on a hill cannot be hidden. 15 Nor do they light a lamp and put it under a basket, but on a lampstand, and it gives light to all who are in the house. 16 Let your light so shine before men, that they may see your good works and glorify your Father in heaven.

Revelation 1:20 The mystery of the seven stars which you saw in My right hand, and the seven golden lampstands: The seven stars are the angels of the seven churches, and the seven lampstands which you saw are the seven churches.

We as the body of believers in Christ are the light of the world. We are the lampstands and without the body of Christ the world would reside in spiritual darkness. The lampstands also have symbolic meaning if you look at the book of Zechariah. They are the two anointed ones of the earth.

2 Corinthians 13:1
This will be the third time I am coming to you. “By the mouth of two or three witnesses every word shall be established.â€

What did Jesus do when he preached the gospel? He sent the apostles out two by two to preach the word of God.

Mark 6:7 And He called the twelve to Himself, and began to send them out two by two, and gave them power over unclean spirits.... verse 12 So they went out and preached that people should repent.

So let's take a look at Revelation 11.
Notice in verse 3... God gives his witnesses "power" and they will prophesy (meaning to preach) for 1260 days

Revelation 11:3 And I will give power to my two witnesses, and they will prophesy one thousand two hundred and sixty days, clothed in sackcloth.â€4 These are the two olive trees and the two lampstands standing before the God of the earth.

The two witnesses received power at Pentecost, that power is the power of the Holy Spirit. And henceforth they are to be witnesses and testify of the gospel of Jesus Christ starting at Jerusalem and going forth in an even broader area of scope all the way across the entire world.

Acts 1:8
But you shall receive power when the Holy Spirit has come upon you; and you shall be witnesses to Me in Jerusalem, and in all Judea and Samaria, and to the end of the earth.â€

Notice that this is the same time period in which the woman flees into the wilderness as she begins her flight to safety where she has a place that is prepared for her and is fed.

There's a problem with that theory; it doesn't recognize the strict timing of events our Lord Jesus gave in Rev.11 about the woe periods and trumpet periods. Our Lord gave three woe periods with the last three trumpets, meaning all those events happen in order. The 6th trumpet -2nd woe period begins in Rev.9 with the four angels at the river Euphrates being loosed, which means the symbolic border between the locust army and God's people is opened. And that 2nd woe continues all the way up to Christ's second coming on the 3rd woe -7th trumpet. To try and spiritualize all that is like playing mysticism with God's Word, and to totally miss the events that are to occur our Lord gave. I will listen to my Lord Jesus on what gave there, and not the musings of so-called Christian mystics playing with God's Word. I suggest you do the same brother.

 

[awaken]

Daniel 12:12
Blessed is the one who waits for and reaches the end of the 1,335 days.

Danies 12:13.."But go thou thy way till the end by; for thou shalt rest, and stand in they lot at the end of days."

Daniel is resurrected at the end of the days..1,335 day. But Christ returns of day 1260?? So Daniel misses both raptures..pre..and post??? There is a 75 day difference here?? Interesting??

Questions...
How could the twenty-rour elders have crowns if Christ had not come previously in Rev.?
Why does Revelation 13:9 address individuals instead of churches?
Why does God deal in a speacialway with 144,00 Israelites..something he does not do during the church age?
Why are the 144,00 called "first fruits" instead of "last fruits"..unless a brand new class of converts arises during the tribulation?
How can the harvest of Rev. 14:14-16 be the rapture when Joel 3 explains it to be the harvest of the wicked?
Why are the white-robed armies all in heaven before Christ leaves heaven to return to earth?
IF the resurrection of Revelation 20 is the rapture resurrection, then why does it occur well afger Christ sets foot on the earth?

 

[faithtransforms]

Daniel 12:12
Blessed is the one who waits for and reaches the end of the 1,335 days.

Danies 12:13.."But go thou thy way till the end by; for thou shalt rest, and stand in they lot at the end of days."

Daniel is resurrected at the end of the days..1,335 day. But Christ returns of day 1260?? So Daniel misses both raptures..pre..and post??? There is a 75 day difference here?? Interesting??

Questions...
How could the twenty-rour elders have crowns if Christ had not come previously in Rev.?
Why does Revelation 13:9 address individuals instead of churches?
Why does God deal in a speacialway with 144,00 Israelites..something he does not do during the church age?
Why are the 144,00 called "first fruits" instead of "last fruits"..unless a brand new class of converts arises during the tribulation?
How can the harvest of Rev. 14:14-16 be the rapture when Joel 3 explains it to be the harvest of the wicked?
Why are the white-robed armies all in heaven before Christ leaves heaven to return to earth?
IF the resurrection of Revelation 20 is the rapture resurrection, then why does it occur well afger Christ sets foot on the earth?

I'm only going to address one of your questions, b/c (A) I don't know the answer to all of them and (B) I have to get ready for work. In Rev 19 Jesus destroys the ungodly with the sword of His mouth and the brightness of His coming. This can all be done in in the air, it does not say that he actually had set foot on the earth at that time. In fact I've always assumed this occurred in the in the air, even when I was a pre-tribber.

 

[archangel_300]

What you're talking about is a type of Historicist interpretation of Revelation. There are some portions of Revelation that point to history, the seven Churches in Asia do especially. But there's so much more prophecy given that lines up with what God gave the OT prophets to say about the end of this world, that it's impossible to treat it all as history, or to simply focus on what theological seminaries call "the Church age". There is a concerted effort by some today to create blindness to the endtime events in order to help Satan's coming deception to become more bountiful. The time is getting too short today to be falling into that kind of trap, because it means to throw away the warnings our Lord Jesus gave us for the end of this world.

If I am wrong about my interpretation of the two witnesses and the woman and the dragon, you'll need to prove I'm wrong with scripture. I don't belong to any concerted effort to create blindness.
I'm just a student of the Word and these are the things I see. There are plenty of warnings Christ gives us about the end time and the events that occur before his return. These are outlined for us in places like Matthew 24. The two witnesses if they indeed are the new testment church also serve as a distinct warning because if my theory is correct then it means they will stop testifying at some point in the future and the gospel of salvation will no longer be found. I suspect the time that they are killed by the beast is the time the great tribulation period begins.

I'm nearly convinced that what is being stated in the below verses means that if the great tribulation period were allowed to continue forward without the days being shortened NO ONE, no man/woman/child on the face of the entire earth would come to salvation in Jesus Christ. That means it's in our best interest to make sure we are saved BEFORE the great tribulation period begins.. that is to say BEFORE the two witnesses are KILLED.

Matthew 24:21 For then there will be great tribulation, such as has not been since the beginning of the world until this time, no, nor ever shall be. 22 And unless those days were shortened, no flesh would be saved; but for the elect’s sake those days will be shortened.

Notice also that the woman is fed for 1260 days. Suggesting that once the 1260 is FINISHED she is no longer FED. If the woman represents the church this means the church is no longer spiritually fed...

There's a problem with that theory; it doesn't recognize the strict timing of events our Lord Jesus gave in Rev.11 about the woe periods and trumpet periods. Our Lord gave three woe periods with the last three trumpets, meaning all those events happen in order. The 6th trumpet -2nd woe period begins in Rev.9 with the four angels at the river Euphrates being loosed, which means the symbolic border between the locust army and God's people is opened. And that 2nd woe continues all the way up to Christ's second coming on the 3rd woe -7th trumpet. To try and spiritualize all that is like playing mysticism with God's Word, and to totally miss the events that are to occur our Lord gave. I will listen to my Lord Jesus on what gave there, and not the musings of so-called Christian mystics playing with God's Word. I suggest you do the same brother.

I tend to agree that the woes do pose a problem with my theory about the two witnesses..
But here is my rebuttal.

Each trumpet is followed with a specific judgment.. we see this when all the trumpets blast.
We know that there are 3 woes which represent the 5th/6th/7th trumpets
The first woe (5th trumpet) is the plague of locusts.
The second woe (6th trumpet) SHOULD when the sixth angel sounded the angels are released and a third of mankind is killed.
But I agree there is a STRANGE break here in scripture and the 2nd woe isn't mentioned until after the two witnesses are killed. But notice in Revelation 10 following the 6th trumpet it almost appears that Christ comes down for JUDGMENT and it's the end of the world after the 6th trumpet, BUT John is told not to write anything the seven thunders spoke down.

Let's go back to the 6th trumpet to see what that represents. The angels are LOOSED... a picture of what occurs in Revelation 20 after the 1000 years are finished. We know in Revelation 20 Satan will try to surround the camp of the saints to destroy them. This I believe is the same thing that is occuring when the 6th trumpet sounds.

Let's go back to the 6th trumpet...
Who are the third of mankind?

There are only two conclusions:
1. They represent the body of believers in Christ.
2. They represent the body of believers in Christ + a subset of unbelievers.

Notice in verse Revelation 9:20... the rest of mankind that were not killed by these angels DID NOT REPENT. Meaning ALL that's left after this third is destroyed are two thirds of mankind and ALL ARE UNBELIEVERS. No one on the face of the earth is a BELIEVER after the third of mankind is killed.

I strongly think that my FIRST conclusion (they represent all the body of believers in Christ) is the correct conclusion... why?

Look at the verse in Zechariah 13
“ Strike the Shepherd, And the sheep will be scattered; Then I will turn My hand against the little ones. 8 And it shall come to pass in all the land,†Says the LORD, “ That two-thirds in it shall be cut off and die, But one-third shall be left in it: 9 I will bring the one-third through the fire, Will refine them as silver is refined, And test them as gold is tested. They will call on My name, And I will answer them. I will say, ‘This is My people’; And each one will say, ‘The LORD is my God.’â€

The striking of the shephard is a reference to when Christ was crucified...
And it comes to pass that Christ brought a third of mankind through the fire to test them and refine them and Christ calls the one third MY PEOPLE. The one third of mankind symbolically represent the body of believers in Jesus Christ... Christ's CHOSEN people.

I believe the sixth angel and the third of mankind destroyed is a LINK between when the two witnesses are KILLED by the beast as the two witnesses do represent the New Testament church that proclaims the gospel of Jesus Christ. The second woe is when the body of Christ and the testimony is DESTROYED.
Notice that the second woe is mentioned AFTER the two witnesses are resurrected in Revelation 11:14.
Their resurrection CANNOT be a WOE because that is the rapture and why is that a bad thing? I believe the woe is the fact that they were destroyed for a short period of time. Although I could be very wrong...

Revelation 9:13 Then the sixth angel sounded: And I heard a voice from the four horns of the golden altar which is before God, 14 saying to the sixth angel who had the trumpet, “Release the four angels who are bound at the great river Euphrates.†15 So the four angels, who had been prepared for the hour and day and month and year, were released to kill a third of mankind. 16 Now the number of the army of the horsemen was two hundred million; I heard the number of them. 17 And thus I saw the horses in the vision: those who sat on them had breastplates of fiery red, hyacinth blue, and sulfur yellow; and the heads of the horses were like the heads of lions; and out of their mouths came fire, smoke, and brimstone. 18 By these three plagues a third of mankind was killed—by the fire and the smoke and the brimstone which came out of their mouths. 19 For their power[a] is in their mouth and in their tails; for their tails are like serpents, having heads; and with them they do harm.
20 But the rest of mankind, who were not killed by these plagues, did not repent of the works of their hands, that they should not worship demons, and idols of gold, silver, brass, stone, and wood, which can neither see nor hear nor walk. 21 And they did not repent of their murders or their sorceries or their sexual immorality or their thefts.

 

[archangel_300]

If you will go over the parable in Ezek.31, and note how that relates to Satan's original rebellion, it might answer a lot for you. In so many words, Satan's rebellion of old involved an earthly kingdom, much like the one world government idea now being setup on earth. That's why we're given the contrast between the beast system of old in Rev.12:3-4 that had 7 crowns vs. the one for today in Rev.13:1 that's to have 10 crowns. All that relates also to why God used the historical kings of Assyria, Babylon, Pharaoh, etc., as types, while including passages about Satan's original rebellion of old (like Ezek.28; 31 and Isaiah 14). It's not a difficult Bible study, but a very profound study, and a very important message.

It's possible that Ezekiel 31 is referring to Satan's original rebellion but this has nothing to do with Satan being cast out in Revelation 12. Again if Satan was cast out at the time of the original rebellion, how come he was able to enter heaven in the book of Job? The "salvation,strength and kingdom of our Lord" did not come at that time. It came when Christ's shed blood became a reality.

The Rev.11 events about God's two witnesses is a very specific prophesy involving two men, because it's the dead bodies of two of God's servants are to be left laying in the street (plaza) of Jerusalem for all the nations to see, for three and one half days, and then they resurrect. That's way too much detail that can easily be known when fulfilled, and yet that event has NEVER come to pass in Church history. There are those who often 'spiritualize' literal prophecies in God's Word, and most often that's done to fit a particular doctrine of man. I wouldn't suggest doing that with the Rev.11 prophecy.

The two witnesses dead bodies are where "our Lord was crucified".
I'm not too familiar with geography but wasn't Christ crucified outside of Jerusalem?
I have taken this passage to mean that the gospel of Jesus Christ will be kicked out of the church so that the church itself is spiritually dead at this point. The testimony of God is destroyed. We will be rejected by our own people just like Christ was rejected by his own people and crucified. They didn't like or hear his message of repentance and neither do those who are of this world. Those that are of the world are tormented by the gospel of Jesus Christ because it is a message of God's divine wrath upon mankind as well as the message of "repent for the kingdom of God is at hand". This eventually will no longer be preached properly and if this is the case the church becomes dead.

Again please prove to me using the scriptures that the two prophets are end time prophets... besides the 3 woes argument which I have addressed in my previous post.

 

[awaken]

I'm only going to address one of your questions, b/c (A) I don't know the answer to all of them and (B) I have to get ready for work. In Rev 19 Jesus destroys the ungodly with the sword of His mouth and the brightness of His coming. This can all be done in in the air, it does not say that he actually had set foot on the earth at that time. In fact I've always assumed this occurred in the in the air, even when I was a pre-tribber.

Oh..but that is just the beginning of questions..these questions and more ..when answered will contradict the post trib view..

"...a thousand two hundred and threescore days." (Rev. 12:6)
"..ye know neither the day not the hour wherein the Son of man cometh." (Matt. 25:13)

Can believers living during the tribulation know the day Christ will return? Until this question is answered it leaves a gaping hole right in the middle of the post trib. puzzle.

If the tribulation is 7 years long, and Christ will return at the end of the tribulation, then what prevents believers from knowing when Christ will return?

Daniel 9:27 is one missing piece of the puzzle..once the abomination of desolation occurs a time is given..in years-3 1/2 years..in months 42 months..in days 1260. All times refer to the coming of Jesus to earth. It has a beginning and ending point..

I see two different days..one known..on unknown...

One missing piece of this puzzle

 

[archangel_300]

Daniel is resurrected at the end of the days..1,335 day. But Christ returns of day 1260?? So Daniel misses both raptures..pre..and post??? There is a 75 day difference here?? Interesting??

Christ doesn't return the 1260th day. ??
In my theory the 1260th day is when the church age ends but it is not the end of the world.

Why does Revelation 13:9 address individuals instead of churches?

Why not? It's just stating he who has spiritual ears to hear let him hear what is really being said here.

Why does God deal in a speacialway with 144,00 Israelites..something he does not do during the church age?

I suspect the 144K is the complete body of Christ. I've elaborated on this in another thread.

How can the harvest of Rev. 14:14-16 be the rapture when Joel 3 explains it to be the harvest of the wicked?

This is the rapture. The harvest of the wicked occur at the same time and it's Revelation 14:17-20

Why are the white-robed armies all in heaven before Christ leaves heaven to return to earth?
IF the resurrection of Revelation 20 is the rapture resurrection, then why does it occur well afger Christ sets foot on the earth?

The resurrection of Revelation 20 (I assume you are referring to verse 4) is not the rapture resurrection. I strongly believe its the time when Christ was resurrected and all the saints that died were then resurrected with him. (Matthew 27:53)

 

[awaken]

Daniel is resurrected at the end of the days..1,335 day. But Christ returns of day 1260?? So Daniel misses both raptures..pre..and post??? There is a 75 day difference here?? Interesting??

Christ doesn't return the 1260th day. ??
In my theory the 1260th day is when the church age ends but it is not the end of the world.

I did not say it was the end of the world...
If Christ returns at the end of the tribulation (7 years)..wouldn't that be 1260 days from the middle. The antichrist will stand in the middle of the week/years..(Dan.7:27)..the middle will be 3 1/2 years, right?
So the end of the tribulation will be 3 1/2 years after that..which is the same as 42 months..1260 days.

 

[veteran]

If I am wrong about my interpretation of the two witnesses and the woman and the dragon, you'll need to prove I'm wrong with scripture. I don't belong to any concerted effort to create blindness.
I'm just a student of the Word and these are the things I see. There are plenty of warnings Christ gives us about the end time and the events that occur before his return. These are outlined for us in places like Matthew 24. The two witnesses if they indeed are the new testment church also serve as a distinct warning because if my theory is correct then it means they will stop testifying at some point in the future and the gospel of salvation will no longer be found. I suspect the time that they are killed by the beast is the time the great tribulation period begins.

I'm not saying you're trying to deceive anyone here; I'm saying there are doctrines of men that many have accepted about Revelation that are designed to get the believer away from focus on the end time events our Lord Jesus gave in it. It's ironical that you bring up Matthew 24 on this matter, because if you compare the events our Lord Jesus gave there with Revelation (and in Mark 13), you might discover He was giving the events of the seven seals of Revelation 6.

Christ gave the events of the last three trumpets in order, because He attached three woe periods with them. That order we must follow, if we want to understand how the events come down the line, since it's revealed to help us to watch for His coming. We're told the two witnesses prophesy for a 1260 day period, in Jerusalem, and then are killed and their dead bodies left laying in the street for three and one half days, with all nations seeing them. Again, that prophesy is very specific, and cannot be shown having been already fulfilled or even having begun. One must stay within those parameters given there by our Lord. So there's no reason to try and hang other meanings on those events that do not support what is written there.

I'm nearly convinced that what is being stated in the below verses means that if the great tribulation period were allowed to continue forward without the days being shortened NO ONE, no man/woman/child on the face of the entire earth would come to salvation in Jesus Christ. That means it's in our best interest to make sure we are saved BEFORE the great tribulation period begins.. that is to say BEFORE the two witnesses are KILLED.

I tend to agree that our Lord meant no flesh would be saved spiritually, for the temptation to false worship is to be strong enough that it would deceive even His elect, IF it were possible. When our Lord said that condition "if it were possible", He was saying His elect will not be deceived, no matter what. Thus He was showing us by comparison how powerful the "strong delusion" is going to be upon the majority of the world. By that He is warning all that have believed to remain spiritually sober and watching the events and remain faithful in waiting for Him. It is going to try our patience also. But if one KNOWS there's a false messiah coming first to deceive by working great signs and miracles and says he is Christ, then that false one should NOT be a temptation to us, but an abomination instead.

Notice also that the woman is fed for 1260 days. Suggesting that once the 1260 is FINISHED she is no longer FED. If the woman represents the church this means the church is no longer spiritually fed...

If Rev.12:6 and 12:14 are about both 1260 day periods of the symbolic "one week" (7 years) of Daniel, Christ's Body is nourished during both periods away from deception. But recall our Lord said He shortened the time in association with the height of the tribulation time when false messiah shows up (Matt.24; Mark 13). What has that time been shortened to, meaning the last half of the 7 years? He associated that shortened time with the flood time in Noah's day per Rev.9.

I tend to agree that the woes do pose a problem with my theory about the two witnesses..
But here is my rebuttal.

Each trumpet is followed with a specific judgment.. we see this when all the trumpets blast.
We know that there are 3 woes which represent the 5th/6th/7th trumpets
The first woe (5th trumpet) is the plague of locusts.
The second woe (6th trumpet) SHOULD when the sixth angel sounded the angels are released and a third of mankind is killed.
But I agree there is a STRANGE break here in scripture and the 2nd woe isn't mentioned until after the two witnesses are killed. But notice in Revelation 10 following the 6th trumpet it almost appears that Christ comes down for JUDGMENT and it's the end of the world after the 6th trumpet, BUT John is told not to write anything the seven thunders spoke down.

Actually, the 2nd woe is shown starting in Rev.9:12 forward. At Rev.9:12, the 5th trumpet - 1st woe is finished. Also notice the events of the 5th trumpet include descriptions of the locust army that is shown fully loosed on the 6th trumpet in Rev.9. That must be compared with the Book of Joel about the locusts, for God compared the four natural stage development of a real locust to their working. What the first stage leaves, the next stage eats, and so on. And recall Rev.9 says they are not allowed to kill anyone not having God's seal, but only sting them for a period of "five months". The slaying part is not literal then, but spiritual, because their power is in their mouths (lies).

Let's go back to the 6th trumpet to see what that represents. The angels are LOOSED... a picture of what occurs in Revelation 20 after the 1000 years are finished. We know in Revelation 20 Satan will try to surround the camp of the saints to destroy them. This I believe is the same thing that is occuring when the 6th trumpet sounds.

The 6th trumpet is tied with the 6th vial about the river Euphrates (Rev.16:12-16). On the 6th vial the beast is still in operation on earth and not destroyed by Christ's coming yet on the 7th trumpet and vial. Christ's "thousand years" reign won't begin until after that 7th vial, and 7th trumpet occurs. Within the 6th trumpet - 2nd woe period, God's two witnesses are still prophesying during the 1260 day period per Rev.11. See how those 3 woe periods force the events to be in a certain order?

Let's go back to the 6th trumpet...
Who are the third of mankind?

There are only two conclusions:
1. They represent the body of believers in Christ.
2. They represent the body of believers in Christ + a subset of unbelievers.

Notice in verse Revelation 9:20... the rest of mankind that were not killed by these angels DID NOT REPENT. Meaning ALL that's left after this third is destroyed are two thirds of mankind and ALL ARE UNBELIEVERS. No one on the face of the earth is a BELIEVER after the third of mankind is killed.

I strongly think that my FIRST conclusion (they represent all the body of believers in Christ) is the correct conclusion... why?

Look at the verse in Zechariah 13
“ Strike the Shepherd, And the sheep will be scattered; Then I will turn My hand against the little ones. 8 And it shall come to pass in all the land,†Says the LORD, “ That two-thirds in it shall be cut off and die, But one-third shall be left in it: 9 I will bring the one-third through the fire, Will refine them as silver is refined, And test them as gold is tested. They will call on My name, And I will answer them. I will say, ‘This is My people’; And each one will say, ‘The LORD is my God.’â€

The striking of the shephard is a reference to when Christ was crucified...
And it comes to pass that Christ brought a third of mankind through the fire to test them and refine them and Christ calls the one third MY PEOPLE. The one third of mankind symbolically represent the body of believers in Jesus Christ... Christ's CHOSEN people.

The Zech.13 events are condensed, much like the Isaiah 61:1-2 prophecy. Our Lord Jesus did not read the very last phrase of Isaiah 61:2 at His first coming in Luke 4, because that part is for His future second coming. Likewise with that Zech.13 prophecy, smite The Shepherd and scattering of the sheep (disciples) was at His crucifixion, but the part about those being purified by fire is for the great tribulation, and even relates to the Daniel 12:10 prophecy about the endtime persecution of the saints.

The one third that are slain in Rev.9 is about those not sealed, those subject to the stinging, and can mean those who fall away from Christ to believe the coming lie. The reason is because the slaying is spiritual, not literal, since the power of the locust army is in their MOUTHS. That's where the smoke, fire and brimstone comes out of, their mouths. Thus the five months stinging they do is put for working deception upon the deceived, slaying their souls spiritually, and not their flesh literally. Then the rest in Rev.9:20-21 are especially those of Christ's enemies who are guilty of sorcery, murders, fornicators, etc. Those worship this world and the prince of this world.

I believe the sixth angel and the third of mankind destroyed is a LINK between when the two witnesses are KILLED by the beast as the two witnesses do represent the New Testament church that proclaims the gospel of Jesus Christ. The second woe is when the body of Christ and the testimony is DESTROYED.
Notice that the second woe is mentioned AFTER the two witnesses are resurrected in Revelation 11:14.
Their resurrection CANNOT be a WOE because that is the rapture and why is that a bad thing? I believe the woe is the fact that they were destroyed for a short period of time. Although I could be very wrong...

The two witnesses in Jerusalem finish their work after the 1260 days, then are killed, and there's a three and one half day lull until the events of the 7th trumpet - 3rd woe begins. The 2nd woe - 6th trumpet is a woe period upon God's people who don't remain spiritually sober and watching. That's the height of the flood waters, the height of the time of the "strong delusion" deception by false messiah. That's why a temple is shown in Rev.11:1-2 with certain ones worshipping in it, while the outer court is left for the Gentiles to tread. That links to the coming of the pseudo Christ sitting in the temple fooling the majority into thinking he is God. Then note just who it is that kills God's two witnesses at the end of the 1260 days. The "beast that ascendeth out of the bottomless pit" is a major pointer to that pseudo Christ.

John is given a reed "like unto a rod" and told to measure that temple in Rev.11:1. That rod reference is put for a negative sense, like a punishing rod. In Ezek.43:10, God tells Ezekiel to show His 'house' (temple) to the house of Israel so they may be ashamed (because of their rebellion), and to let them 'measure' the pattern. God gives the true pattern in Ezek.40 forward and in Rev.21-22. The one in Rev.11:1 is a false pattern. The Rev.11:1 message is to measure and make a comparison. In Ezek.40 and Rev.21:15 only a reed is mentioned for measuring.

 

[veteran]

It's possible that Ezekiel 31 is referring to Satan's original rebellion but this has nothing to do with Satan being cast out in Revelation 12. Again if Satan was cast out at the time of the original rebellion, how come he was able to enter heaven in the book of Job? The "salvation,strength and kingdom of our Lord" did not come at that time. It came when Christ's shed blood became a reality.

The Ezekiel 31 parable is to show HOW Satan was originally in a high status in God's Garden, ruling over all the other symbolic trees. It links with his beast kingdom of Rev.12:3-4, which was the time he drew one third of the stars (angels) into rebellion with him. The main reason we're given that beast kingdom he had of old in Rev.12:3-4 is so to compare it with the one in Rev.13:1 for the end of days. You should quickly see a connection with that comparison to the Revelation seals, trumpets, and vials. Rev.12:7-9 is about a war in heaven when Michael boots him and his angels down to this earth, and a time of trials upon the saints is associated with it, which is linked with those in Rev.7:9 forward that washed their robes in the Blood of The Lamb and made them white, a 5th seal timing event. All of that from Rev.12:6 forward is pointing to the end of days, not the whole of Church history.

You should have noted the Rev.12:7-9 difference in contrast to Job declaring Satan and his angels appearing before God's Throne in Heaven. After the Rev.12:7-9 event he is no more allowed to appear in Heaven, for no more place in Heaven is found for him (Rev.12:8). That means he's coming here, in person, out of the heavenly dimension to this earthly dimension. This is why the "another beast" comes up out of the "earth", and why it's the "beast that ascendeth out of the bottomless pit" in Rev.11 that kills God's two witnesses. Satan's abode of hell, or the pit, is actually in the heavenly dimension. His first casting out involved a place of separation in the heavenly between God's Abode and the pit (see end of Luke 16, and consider Gen.1:4). Up until Rev.12:7-9 happens, he's allowed to move in the heavenly domain. After the war in Heaven with Michael he will no longer be allowed in the heavenly until Christ comes and he is cast into the pit in chains for the thousand years (Rev.20:1-3). Christ indeed defeated him on the cross, but He still has a purpose for him at the end of this world, and for after Christ's future thousand years reign on earth.

The two witnesses dead bodies are where "our Lord was crucified".
I'm not too familiar with geography but wasn't Christ crucified outside of Jerusalem?
I have taken this passage to mean that the gospel of Jesus Christ will be kicked out of the church so that the church itself is spiritually dead at this point. The testimony of God is destroyed. We will be rejected by our own people just like Christ was rejected by his own people and crucified. They didn't like or hear his message of repentance and neither do those who are of this world. Those that are of the world are tormented by the gospel of Jesus Christ because it is a message of God's divine wrath upon mankind as well as the message of "repent for the kingdom of God is at hand". This eventually will no longer be preached properly and if this is the case the church becomes dead.

The Scripture there means just what it says. God's two witnesses will be killed in the city where our Lord Jesus was crucified, which was Jerusalem, regardless that the place of execution for the damned was outside the gates of Jerusalem. Christ's Church will NEVER be dead, so I don't know where you're getting such ideas. There will be many that will fall away to the "strong delusion" of a false messiah, but there will always be a remnant of God's people with His Truth that He will keep, for that was one of His Promises, both to His Israel and Christ's Body, which are one in Him. So the matter is whether you want to be counted in that number that will remain faithful to Christ during the coming tribulation by the false messiah.

Again please prove to me using the scriptures that the two prophets are end time prophets... besides the 3 woes argument which I have addressed in my previous post.

Study about Elijah's mission God gave him, and note what all God worked through him. Then study about the time of God leading the children of Israel out of Egypt through His servant Moses. Both missions are included within the working of God's two witnesses per Rev.11. Also note Rev.11:9 reveals the nations will actually SEE the dead bodies of God's two witnesses laying the street for three days and a half. How could that be possible in any other time than today, since satellite technology has made that easily possible? That is also a prophetic time marker showing that event is set for the end of days, and not any other time period.

I dare say there will probably even be an Internet site with a live feed showing their dead bodies laying in the street of Jerusalem. The question one should... be asking about that specific event, is WHY will they not allow their dead bodies to be buried, and WHY will they want all nations to see their dead bodies?

 

[veteran]

Daniel is resurrected at the end of the days..1,335 day. But Christ returns of day 1260?? So Daniel misses both raptures..pre..and post??? There is a 75 day difference here?? Interesting??

Christ doesn't return the 1260th day. ??
In my theory the 1260th day is when the church age ends but it is not the end of the world.

I did not say it was the end of the world...
If Christ returns at the end of the tribulation (7 years)..wouldn't that be 1260 days from the middle. The antichrist will stand in the middle of the week/years..(Dan.7:27)..the middle will be 3 1/2 years, right?
So the end of the tribulation will be 3 1/2 years after that..which is the same as 42 months..1260 days.

Per Rev.11, Christ's coming is on the 7th trumpet - 3rd woe, which happens in the same hour when the 2nd woe is ending. The 2nd woe ends after a three and a half day period when the 1260 days God's two witnesses finish their prophesying.

The 1335 days of Dan.12 is about those who wait upon Christ's coming being blessed in that time period. We know those who don't wait for Christ's coming, but instead fall to deception and are found "with child" spiritually by another when He comes will instead be spiritually naked in shame (Rev.16:15), and will wish to hide from The Lamb and His wrath. The 70 weeks prophecy includes the cleansing of Jerusalem and setting up Ezekiel's temple for the Milennium timing. Ezek.39:12 shows the house of Israel will be burying the dead of the northern army that comes upon Israel for seven months afterwards to cleanse the land. It is also possible that God's two witnesses actually begin their prophesying 30 days prior to the midst of the symbolic "one week" (Dan.12:11).

 

[archangel_300]

It's ironical that you bring up Matthew 24 on this matter, because if you compare the events our Lord Jesus gave there with Revelation (and in Mark 13), you might discover He was giving the events of the seven seals of Revelation 6.

Can you prove that Matthew 24/Mark 13 are referring to the seven seals in Revelation 6?

Christ gave the events of the last three trumpets in order, because He attached three woe periods with them. That order we must follow, if we want to understand how the events come down the line, since it's revealed to help us to watch for His coming. We're told the two witnesses prophesy for a 1260 day period, in Jerusalem, and then are killed and their dead bodies left laying in the street for three and one half days, with all nations seeing them. Again, that prophesy is very specific, and cannot be shown having been already fulfilled or even having begun. One must stay within those parameters given there by our Lord. So there's no reason to try and hang other meanings on those events that do not support what is written there.

Ok... so lets start off with the 1260 days / time times dividing time / 42 months.
Hopefully by now we know they are all the same thing. Are we in agreement?
If so please explain how you arrive at the 1260 days referring specifically to the time of the great tribulation period. I need more biblical evidence than the three woes. I don't see this because Revelation 12 is clearly a reference to the church and the church flees into the wilderness for that amount of time. I don't think we can say after the child was born that then the great tribulation starts.

Actually, the 2nd woe is shown starting in Rev.9:12 forward. At Rev.9:12, the 5th trumpet - 1st woe is finished. Also notice the events of the 5th trumpet include descriptions of the locust army that is shown fully loosed on the 6th trumpet in Rev.9. That must be compared with the Book of Joel about the locusts, for God compared the four natural stage development of a real locust to their working. What the first stage leaves, the next stage eats, and so on. And recall Rev.9 says they are not allowed to kill anyone not having God's seal, but only sting them for a period of "five months". The slaying part is not literal then, but spiritual, because their power is in their mouths (lies).

I agree here with the connection to the book of Joel as well as the slaying being spiritual not literal.
This trumpet targets unbelievers.

The 6th trumpet is tied with the 6th vial about the river Euphrates (Rev.16:12-16). On the 6th vial the beast is still in operation on earth and not destroyed by Christ's coming yet on the 7th trumpet and vial. Christ's "thousand years" reign won't begin until after that 7th vial, and 7th trumpet occurs. Within the 6th trumpet - 2nd woe period, God's two witnesses are still prophesying during the 1260 day period per Rev.11. See how those 3 woe periods force the events to be in a certain order?

Ahh... this is something I haven't seen before. I agree that there is a possible connection between the trumpets and the vials.

Both trumpets/vials have things in common:
1st - earth struck
2nd - sea struck
3rd - rivers struck
4th - sun struck
5th - darkness
6th - Euphrates
7th - End of the world

The Zech.13 events are condensed, much like the Isaiah 61:1-2 prophecy. Our Lord Jesus did not read the very last phrase of Isaiah 61:2 at His first coming in Luke 4, because that part is for His future second coming. Likewise with that Zech.13 prophecy, smite The Shepherd and scattering of the sheep (disciples) was at His crucifixion, but the part about those being purified by fire is for the great tribulation, and even relates to the Daniel 12:10 prophecy about the endtime persecution of the saints.

I disagree the part being purified by fire is for the great tribulation period.
Fire typically represents the wrath of God. God did bring us through the fires of judgment through the body of Jesus Christ. That did happen at the crucifixion as God's wrath was being poured out on Jesus Christ for our sins. We are purified by the cross of Jesus Christ because now we stand before God blameless since he took the punishment we deserved. And yes after the cross 2/3 of humanity did die because their sins were not paid for by Jesus Christ. (I'm not sure if the 2/3 is literal or symbolic but I'm inclined to think it is symbolic)

The one third that are slain in Rev.9 is about those not sealed, those subject to the stinging, and can mean those who fall away from Christ to believe the coming lie. The reason is because the slaying is spiritual, not literal, since the power of the locust army is in their MOUTHS. That's where the smoke, fire and brimstone comes out of, their mouths. Thus the five months stinging they do is put for working deception upon the deceived, slaying their souls spiritually, and not their flesh literally. Then the rest in Rev.9:20-21 are especially those of Christ's enemies who are guilty of sorcery, murders, fornicators, etc. Those worship this world and the prince of this world.

I disagree that the one third slain are unbelievers.
It's good that we agree this slaying is spiritual not literal, so lets start off with this fact.

The thing is these are believers because what's remaining after they are slayed are all unbelievers.
There is no one left on the planet that are believers after this slaying.
I think this seems to be linked with the fact that during the end times the gospel will be shut out during the great tribulation period. The beast destroys the two witnesses, their candlesticks no longer shine and they no longer testify. This seems to be the same event.

How do you interpret Revelation 10?

The two witnesses in Jerusalem finish their work after the 1260 days, then are killed, and there's a three and one half day lull until the events of the 7th trumpet - 3rd woe begins. The 2nd woe - 6th trumpet is a woe period upon God's people who don't remain spiritually sober and watching. That's the height of the flood waters, the height of the time of the "strong delusion" deception by false messiah. That's why a temple is shown in Rev.11:1-2 with certain ones worshipping in it, while the outer court is left for the Gentiles to tread. That links to the coming of the pseudo Christ sitting in the temple fooling the majority into thinking he is God. Then note just who it is that kills God's two witnesses at the end of the 1260 days. The "beast that ascendeth out of the bottomless pit" is a major pointer to that pseudo Christ.

If the two witnesses don't represent the body of believers how come they are the only ones raptured at this point?

Again the Gentiles thread the holy city/outer court for 42 months... a reference to the entire new testament period...

2 Thessalonians 2:5 Do you not remember that when I was still with you I told you these things? 6 And now you know what is restraining, that he may be revealed in his own time. 7 For the mystery of lawlessness is already at work; only He[d] who now restrains will do so until He[e] is taken out of the way.

 

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Christ indeed defeated him on the cross, but He still has a purpose for him at the end of this world, and for after Christ's future thousand years reign on earth.

I don't believe in a future 1000 year reign of Christ. Please reread my post that begins with "I hate to burst anyone's bubble here". When Christ returns it will be not only the end of the world but the destruction of this universe. Christ can't reign anywhere for a 1000 years.

The Scripture there means just what it says. God's two witnesses will be killed in the city where our Lord Jesus was crucified, which was Jerusalem, regardless that the place of execution for the damned was outside the gates of Jerusalem. Christ's Church will NEVER be dead, so I don't know where you're getting such ideas. There will be many that will fall away to the "strong delusion" of a false messiah, but there will always be a remnant of God's people with His Truth that He will keep, for that was one of His Promises, both to His Israel and Christ's Body, which are one in Him. So the matter is whether you want to be counted in that number that will remain faithful to Christ during the coming tribulation by the false messiah.

Of course the church will never be dead... however, their testimony will be.
Here's why I believe the light of the gospel will one day be shut out.

I'm not sure if God was specifically addressing the nation of Israel here but the phrase underlined troubles me and seems to suggest otherwise.
Amos 8:11-12 “ Behold, the days are coming,†says the Lord GOD, “ That I will send a famine on the land, Not a famine of bread, Nor a thirst for water, But of hearing the words of the LORD.
12 They shall wander from sea to sea, And from north to east; They shall run to and fro, seeking the word of the LORD, But shall not find it."

Faith comes by hearing and hearing by God's word (Romans 10:17). If when Christ comes he doesn't find faith that would mean the gospel has lost its effectiveness.

Luke 18:8 I tell you that He will avenge them speedily. Nevertheless, when the Son of Man comes, will He really find faith on the earth?â€

Study about Elijah's mission God gave him, and note what all God worked through him. Then study about the time of God leading the children of Israel out of Egypt through His servant Moses. Both missions are included within the working of God's two witnesses per Rev.11. Also note Rev.11:9 reveals the nations will actually SEE the dead bodies of God's two witnesses laying the street for three days and a half. How could that be possible in any other time than today, since satellite technology has made that easily possible? That is also a prophetic time marker showing that event is set for the end of days, and not any other time period.

I dare say there will probably even be an Internet site with a live feed showing their dead bodies laying in the street of Jerusalem. The question one should... be asking about that specific event, is WHY will they not allow their dead bodies to be buried, and WHY will they want all nations to see their dead bodies?

Show me another parable in scripture where symbols are mixed with literal.
It would seem that if one part of the story is symbolic the entire story is symbolic.
I don't see how a symbolically understood beast can destroy two literal men who have fire breath. And again as I've stated in my previous post, if these are two literal men how come they are the only ones raptured?