Higgs Boson

[Kidron]

I don't think that this supplies evidence for a Creator either which way. The particle is predicted to exist by the standard model, and the value of its mass within the predicted range.

Is creation possible without a creator?
Even an idea has to have a generator.

"atoms" "quarks" "leptons", "particles", "theories", a "big bang", a "red rose", .
What can create or recreate itself from nothing.?
Nothing.
So, if its there, it was created, as you cant have a creation without a Creator.




K

 

[AlexBC]

Is creation possible without a creator?
Even an idea has to have a generator.

"atoms" "quarks" "leptons", "particles", "theories", a "big bang", a "red rose", .
What can create or recreate itself from nothing.?
Nothing.
So, if its there, it was created, as you cant have a creation without a Creator.


K

And as a Christian even I have to admit that arguing that "everything needs a first cause, oh, except God" sounds fishy.

 

[Atothetheist]

Is creation possible without a creator?
Even an idea has to have a generator.

"atoms" "quarks" "leptons", "particles", "theories", a "big bang", a "red rose", .
What can create or recreate itself from nothing.?
Nothing.
So, if its there, it was created, as you cant have a creation without a Creator.




K

Things are caused without intent all of the time. If there had to be a Creator for everything, then who created the Creator? Or what created the Creator.

Just by saying we don't know, therefore God Is a horrible argument.

I would like anybody to show me where The Higgs and the standard model are explicitly described in the bible. I am curious.

 

[AlexBC]

Exactly. The Bible tells us nothing about the behaviour of matter and energy. There are no applicable scientific principles that can be pulled from study of the Bible.

 

[duari91]

Things are caused without intent all of the time. If there had to be a Creator for everything, then who created the Creator? Or what created the Creator.

Just by saying we don't know, therefore God Is a horrible argument.

I would like anybody to show me where The Higgs and the standard model are explicitly described in the bible. I am curious.

The inquiry doesn't make sense. God exists in a place without time. Hence the phrase "God is infinite." If there is no existence of time, there is no creation. Creation is a measurement of TIME, so there is no beginning or end to God. He is infinite, just as I stated above. It also makes sense that God says "I am what I am." It falls in line with my assessment.

Before we explore the creator, why don't we explore the cause and effect. No, things don't just pop in and out of existence for "no reason." In this universe, if there is no cause, then there can be no effect. That is the grounds in which science works.

 

[AlexBC]

The inquiry doesn't make sense. God exists in a place without time. Hence the phrase "God is infinite." If there is no existence of time, there is no creation. Creation is a measurement of TIME, so there is no beginning or end to God. He is infinite, just as I stated above. It also makes sense that God says "I am what I am." It falls in line with my assessment.

Before we explore the creator, why don't we explore the cause and effect. No, things don't just pop in and out of existence for "no reason." In this universe, if there is no cause, then there can be no effect. That is the grounds in which science works.

Where in the Bible does it state that God exists outside of time? That is an assumption.

"Creation is a measurement of time". That statement is nonsense.

As for Cause and Effect, I seem to remember reading an article on Retrocausality. Need to do some internet digging.

 

[duari91]

Where in the Bible does it state that God exists outside of time? That is an assumption.

"Creation is a measurement of time". That statement is nonsense.

This grace was given us in Christ Jesus before the beginning of time (2 Timothy 1:9 )

The hope of eternal life, which God... promised before the beginning of time (Titus 1:2 )

To the only God our Savior, through Jesus Christ our Lord, be glory, majesty, dominion and authority, before all time and now and forever. Amen.(Jude 1:25 )

I trust you can read, right? Yes, God exists outside of time, he created it as well. It's one thing to prove a point, but at least KNOW what you are trying to prove before you prove it.

Creation means there is a beginning. Isn't "beginning" a variable of time? Not sure why this confuses you.

 

[Atothetheist]

Where in the Bible does it state that God exists outside of time? That is an assumption.

"Creation is a measurement of time". That statement is nonsense.

As for Cause and effect, I seem to remember reading an article on retrocausality. Ned to do some internet digging.

Not only that, but how can a being outside time and space, have any comprehension of our time?

Do you know what Special Pleading is? You are using it. Needing a cause and an intent are too very different things.

You can accidently cause something without intending it to cause that thing.

I suggest you read up on some cosmology.

 

[duari91]

Not only that, but how can a being outside time and space, have any comprehension of our time?

Do you know what Special Pleading is? You are using it. Needing a cause and an intent are too very different things.

You can accidently cause something without intending it to cause that thing.

I suggest you read up on some cosmology.

Read my previous post...God created time. Before that, there wasn't a such thing as "time." Hence, he created it. Are you suggesting that a being with the power to create time, and the universe would not be able to comprehend that which it created? That doesn't make sense.

The key term here is "cause." If there is no cause, then how can you "accidentally" cause something? Sounds to me like your trying to make sense out of nothing. No pun intended.

 

[AlexBC]

This grace was given us in Christ Jesus before the beginning of time (2 Timothy 1:9 )

The hope of eternal life, which God... promised before the beginning of time (Titus 1:2 )

To the only God our Savior, through Jesus Christ our Lord, be glory, majesty, dominion and authority, before all time and now and forever. Amen.(Jude 1:25 )

I trust you can read, right? Yes, God exists outside of time, he created it as well. It's one thing to prove a point, but at least KNOW what you are trying to prove before you prove it.

Creation means there is a beginning. Isn't "beginning" a variable of time? Not sure why this confuses you.

Oh. I thought you were going to give me something a little more solid than that.
How did God promise anything BEFORE the beginning of time. Who was he promising this to?

 

[Atothetheist]

Read my previous post...God created time. Before that, there wasn't a such thing as "time." Hence, he created it. Are you suggesting that a being with the power to create time, and the universe would not be able to comprehend that which it created? That doesn't make sense.

The key term here is "cause." If there is no cause, then how can you "accidentally" cause something? Sounds to me like your trying to make sense out of nothing. No pun intended.

Ok.. Fair enough, but if bible quotes are the only thing you have for refferance, you need prove to be that they are correct...can you do that?

I never said that there wasn't a cause. I am just saying that that cause might have no real intent on that specific effect.

 

[AlexBC]

Read my previous post...God created time. Before that, there wasn't a such thing as "time." Hence, he created it. Are you suggesting that a being with the power to create time, and the universe would not be able to comprehend that which it created? That doesn't make sense.

The key term here is "cause." If there is no cause, then how can you "accidentally" cause something? Sounds to me like your trying to make sense out of nothing. No pun intended.

I think the problem here is that you are assuming that there was nothing before the current thing we call the universe. I'll say again; "what is nothing"?

"If there is no cause...how can you accidentally cause something"? Huh. I'm not sure what you mean here but accidents happen all the time. There may not be intent but there is still a cause. I think that's what you mean...maybe.

And people accidentally create things all the time without really understanding what they have until they investigate it. Sweetners, penicillin etc etc. Unless you follow it up and test it then you can easily create something you do not (at present) understand. But you say "a being with the power to create time". Well, God is not perfect. If you look at his designs he makes SOOO many mistakes and badly chosen design choices. He is not perfect in the least.

 

[duari91]

Oh. I thought you were going to give me something a little more solid than that.
How did God promise anything BEFORE the beginning of time. Who was he promising this to?

How much more solid information would you need? It doesn't get any clearer. Before the beginning of time = before the creation of time = God exists in a place without time. There is something your just not getting. You are thinking on a level of our physical and mental state. I say again, if God can create the universe and time, could he not make a simple promise? Certainly he can if he knows who will be saved and who wont be BEFORE the actual creation.

I have offered you the evidence you required. It's your choice not to accept it. I see plenty of ignorance like that everyday.

 

[Atothetheist]

How much more solid information would you need? It doesn't get any clearer. Before the beginning of time = before the creation of time = God exists in a place without time. There is something your just not getting. You are thinking on a level of our physical and mental state. I say again, if God can create the universe and time, could he not make a simple promise? Certainly he can if he knows who will be saved and who wont be BEFORE the actual creation.

I have offered you the evidence you required. It's your choice not to accept it. I see plenty of ignorance like that everyday.

Biblical evidence does not constitute scientific evidence for your claim. I would believe it if it was backed up by something peerreviewed and scientifically researched.

 

[AlexBC]

How much more solid information would you need? It doesn't get any clearer. Before the beginning of time = before the creation of time = God exists in a place without time. There is something your just not getting. You are thinking on a level of our physical and mental state. I say again, if God can create the universe and time, could he not make a simple promise? Certainly he can if he knows who will be saved and who wont be BEFORE the actual creation.

I have offered you the evidence you required. It's your choice not to accept it. I see plenty of ignorance like that everyday.

There's nothing in those passages that states whether they are talking about recorded time or the "creation of time".

People use the phrase "before the beginning of time" a lot but it is not to be taken literally.

 

[AlexBC]

Biblical evidence does not constitute scientific evidence for your claim. I would believe it if it was backed up by something peerreviewed and scientifically researched.

Exactly. Most of us Christians take such liberties with what is written in the Bible. A book which has been subject to many interpolations, has had the veracity of several key sections called into question even by the Church itself and represents very little that is scientifically applicable.

 

[AlexBC]

How much more solid information would you need? It doesn't get any clearer.

I see plenty of ignorance like that everyday.

This makes me so sad. "Science" and "literacy" are words that just don't connect in your head, aren't they?

The vague use of a literary device does not constitute "solid evidence".

 

[stovebolts]

There's nothing in those passages that states whether they are talking about recorded time or the "creation of time".

People use the phrase "before the beginning of time" a lot but it is not to be taken literally.

Define time... In it's simplest form, I view time as the measurement between two points.

 

[duari91]

Biblical evidence does not constitute scientific evidence for your claim. I would believe it if it was backed up by something peerreviewed and scientifically researched.

How can "Before the beginning of time" be reviewed? Do you still not comprehend the fact that we would NEVER be able to understand a being as powerful as God?

There's nothing in those passages that states whether they are talking about recorded time or the "creation of time".

People use the phrase "before the beginning of time" a lot but it is not to be taken literally.

Do you really need to reach THAT far to try and cloud the meaning the bible gives? "Beginning of time" not "Beginning of recorded time".

Beginning = The start a.k.a the very first moment after creation

Those passages were not metaphors. I am sure you would like them to be, though.

We could do this all day, guys. The reality is that the passages are there, and they are clear. You don't have to accept them. Even God says people will remain blind no matter what evidence they see.

 

[Atothetheist]

Define time... In it's simplest form, I view time as the measurement between two points.

That's a hard thing to do.

Scientists know "Time" has a beginning. Right at the Big Bang. They are willing to concede, and in fact, are happy to concede that something predates time. But just because it predates time, doesn't mean it didn't have a cause.

Time is a measurment of, I hate to say it, moments observed in our universe. You can not say that just because the thing predates the common notion of time, that thing is uncaused.

The Higgs,or the God particle, as it is FALSELY named, is just a particle that gives mass, even if we do find it, it wouldn't give credence to ANY deity, unless God was directly manipulating it to give Mass, and that manipulation, and it's source, can be observed, and tested.