Bible Study Holy Spirit & Holy Ghost... One in the same?

[Atonement]

I was Baptized in the name of the Father, the Son and the Holy Ghost, not both the Holy Ghost and the Holy Spirit they are one and the same.. What logic is that? This is only a misinterpretation of the Bible, that's all..

 

[Gabbylittleangel]

I was Baptized in the name of the Father, the Son and the Holy Ghost, not both the Holy Ghost and the Holy Spirit they are one and the same.. What logic is that? This is only a misinterpretation of the Bible, that's all..

It appears to be an attempt to create a quad-God.

 

[Georges]

......I had to paste the entire definition for both the OT and NT spirit to prove my point....

Oh gee. I hate to be the one to tell you this, after you went to all that work :smt040
You proved nothing.

Georges is diverting the attention away from the specific scriptures that speak of the Holy Ghost and the cross references to them showing Holy Ghost and Holy Spirit are one and the same.

Not so....I'm saying there is no such thing as a Holy Ghost....period....it is a misdirection of the definition of "Spirit". To an ancient Hebrew, there is no Holy Ghost...there is however a Holy Spirit...they are not the same thing. Ghost is Casper....Spirit is power (Isa 11:2).

Now He is going in all directions groping this way and that bringing angels into this matter as if they have some sort of separate form about them, as if it means something other than being Holy Spirit/Holy Ghost embodiment.

Urgh.....I didn't bring angels into the post...Gabby did. Gabby was the one saying that the seven spirits of Revelation were seven angels not me. Quit being dishonest here misrepresenting me....thanks in advance....Go back and read the whole post line for line....
:-?


Georges, you didn't dispute the cross references I gave earlier.

The bible gives enough definition in the cross references scriptures in the New Testament in reference to the scriptures in the Old Testament on the what and who the Holy Ghost is. You don't need any concordance, dictionary or Lexicon to back it up. The bible is clear enough on the scriptures that are being referred to and in agreement showing the truth.

And your statement is thus YOUR PROBLEM......

I can give more comparisons from out of the list of 89 scriptures which have the words "Holy Ghost" in them and show you that in that list the "Holy Ghost" which is written of in the "New Testament" is referring to the "Holy Spirit", but would it convince you?

And I can use every one of your supporting scriptures on my side of the debate....there is no "Ghost"...in the sense of a separate entity of Jehovah. Take the trinitarian definition out of "Ghost" and "Spirit" from the concordance and you got nothin.....

:-?


.

Quit being intellectually dishonest...you are misrepresenting what I typed...attributing what other's had stated....God back and read it again.

Post the specific verses you want me to address...you can print all of them if you like but it will be redundant....

 

[Georges]

I was Baptized in the name of the Father, the Son and the Holy Ghost, not both the Holy Ghost and the Holy Spirit they are one and the same.. What logic is that? This is only a misinterpretation of the Bible, that's all..

There is no Holy Ghost.....only the Holy Spirit....

There is no Holy Casper....only the Holy Spirit (Isa 11:2)....memorize it cause that is what Jehovah's Holy Spirit is....

 

[Georges]

I was Baptized in the name of the Father, the Son and the Holy Ghost, not both the Holy Ghost and the Holy Spirit they are one and the same.. What logic is that?

That's what I'm saying....Ghost replaced Spirit....."Spirit entity" replaced a word meaning the "power and essence" of Jehovah...those responsible (non Hebrew forefathers) for developing the Holy Spirit as the "power and essence of Jehovah" instead promoted a nameless, formless, spirit entity in it's place...creating a 3rd entity in a Godhead....

This is only a misinterpretation of the Bible, that's all..

It appears to be an attempt to create a quad-God.

I'll stick with my monotheistic belief....If it was good enough for Jesus, the patriarchs and the apostles, it's good enough for me...

 

[Gabbylittleangel]

There is no Holy Ghost.....only the Holy Spirit....

semantics.
George, semantics. If someone says it is six of one, you post page after page trying to prove that it is half a dozen.

Like a dog with a bone....

 

[Georges]

There is no Holy Ghost.....only the Holy Spirit....

semantics.
George, semantics. If someone says it is six of one, you post page after page trying to prove that it is half a dozen.

Like a dog with a bone....

Woof woof....It ain't sematics....you are making it semantics....Semantics as you say are two definitions proving the same thing.

I'm saying they (HG and HS) are not the same thing....that's just it. You're not comprehending what I'm getting at....In this case, if someone says "six of one"....I'd wouldn't say "..it's half a dozen"....I'd say "boomerang" because it's just like that...they are 2 different things...I need to come up with a better example....but for now that's it...2 different terms...

The whole problem is "Ghost"....who ever intially used that term to explain the Holy Spirit of Jehovah caused a whole lot of problems down through the years....

I don't know how else to put it.....A Ghost is a spirit with a sheet over him...it is someone's soul....

The Holy Spirit (different definition of spirit), is not an Ghost (sheet covered entity)....

This is not semantics...it's definitional concept...

 

[Atonement]

Were on page 4 of this and no one seems to have a change of heart, I think we will believe what each of us want to believe. No need trying to push something down someone's throat. I speak for myself on this also, I can do this at times :

 

[Vic C.]

George, who is Matthew speaking of here?

Matthew 1:18 [kjv]...

Jesus in Matthew 12:31 [kjv]

Jesus in John 14:26 [kjv]

I am sure you are aware that the word pneuma is used in the verses above [and in other places] as well as in Luke 11:13 [kjv][and in other places].

 

[Lewis]

Thank you brother vic. But dude is going to come up with something. :-D :D

 

[Vic C.]

I'd be disappointed if he didn't 8-)

 

[Georges]

Were on page 4 of this and no one seems to have a change of heart, I think we will believe what each of us want to believe. No need trying to push something down someone's throat. I speak for myself on this also, I can do this at times :

Yes and no....I was one who had changed...I was bought up in the trinity and thought Spirit as a Ghost...that was before the other definitions for Spirit came to my attention...especially in light of Isa 11:2 which no one seems to want to address....

So it is possible for someone to change...the switch just has to click is all.

 

[Georges]

I'd be disappointed if he didn't 8-)

I usually try and come up with something....even if it is far fetched..... :-D

vic Posted: Mon Sep 04, 2006 7:20 pm Post subject:

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George, who is Matthew speaking of here?

Matthew 1:18 [kjv]...

Mat 1:18 ¶ Now the birth of Jesus Christ was on this wise: When as his mother Mary was espoused to Joseph, before they came together, she was found with child of the Holy Ghost.

Vic, the verse does not support other than the word "Ghost" that there is an spirit entity involved. If you would ask me (a non trinitarian) to interpret the verse, first of all, you have to get rid of the problem....That would be using Ghost instead of Spirit....

Mat 1:18 ¶ Now the birth of Jesus Christ was on this wise: When as his mother Mary was espoused to Joseph, before they came together, she was found with child of the Holy Spirit.

Now there are no problems.....the power of God overshadowed Mary...think of that power in this way...a radiation effect...God emits his spirit to whom he chooses, that person is effected...A great example of this is when the Spirit of Jehovah landed on Christ at his baptism. This was the same Spirit prophesied by Isa (11:2). God may have zapped Mary with a beam of his energy...or she was enveloped in a cloud of his energy...She could even have had a dove land on her. Use whatever definition for the OT strongs for Spirit to fit the passage....but to suggest it was a third entity of a Godhead is not right according to the OT definiton of Spirit...

Jesus in Matthew 12:31 [kjv]

Mat 12:31 ¶ Wherefore I say unto you, All manner of sin and blasphemy shall be forgiven unto men: but the blasphemy [against] the [Holy] Ghost shall not be forgiven unto men.

/Same thing Vic....Jesus, who had the Spirit of God (Isa 11:2) come upon him at his baptism, had just commited an act of healing...

Mat 12:28 But if I cast out devils by the Spirit of God, then the kingdom of God is come unto you.


"If I cast out devils by the "Power" of God"......Of course as Jesus is the Agent of Jehovah, Jehovah gave Jesus (at his baptism) his complete power. Some of the people were saying the "power of God" was the "power of Satan". Does Satan have a Unholy Spirit that runs around separate of himself? Of course not... This verse simply states that the people were blaspheming the "Holy Power" that Jehovah energized Jesus with...

Mat 12:32 And whosoever speaketh a word against the Son of man, it shall be forgiven him: but whosoever speaketh against the Holy Ghost, it shall not be forgiven him, neither in this world, neither in the [world] to come.

Again, it is the calling the "Holy Power of God" the "Power of the Devil"...that is blaspheme...

Jesus in John 14:26 [kjv]

Jhn 14:26 But the Comforter, [which is] the Holy Ghost, whom the Father will send in my name, he shall teach you all things, and bring all things to your remembrance, whatsoever I have said unto you.

Of course Vic...."he" is used to make a trinitarian translation viable....however, "he" can be translated as "it" just as well.....I'll post the strongs....
Lexicon Results for ekeinos (Strong's 1565)
Greek for 1565

Pronunciation Guide
ekeinos {ek-i'-nos}

TDNT Reference Root Word
Not Available from 1563
Part of Speech
pron
Outline of Biblical Usage
1) he, she it, etc.

Read from that perspective....

Jhn 14:26 But the Comforter, [which is] the Holy Ghost, whom the Father will send in my name, it will teach you all things, and it will bring all things to your remembrance, whatsoever I have said unto you. (Geo's paraphrase)

Again, the "Holy Power of God", "it" will energize the disciples, enabling them to remember all that was taught them....again, this is an energy that allows these ordinary men to do extra ordinary things....

I am sure you are aware that the word pneuma is used in the verses above [and in other places] as well as in Luke 11:13 [kjv][and in other places].

Vic...in every verse...it is the same...the "Holy Power of God" radiates upon whom he chooses...whether it be a virgin girl, or a group of men, or a nation of people...the use of "he" in place of "it" is part of the trinitarian translation to fit their theology.

Isa 11:2 And the spirit of the LORD shall rest upon him, the spirit of wisdom and understanding, the spirit of counsel and might, the spirit of knowledge and of the fear of the LORD;



Vic....as I had presented to relic, the same can be done for just about every HG verse you or anyone can present....except of course, the Johanine comma, and Mat 28:19.

Vic...ever wonder why the HG isn't mentioned in the OT? Type a search for Holy Ghost in http://www.blueletterbible.com....you will find no mention of it in the OT....and that is the problem.....No Ghost....it's a bad misnomer...



Well I tried with the explanation....how'd I do?

 

[cyberjosh]

This is off-topic, but...

Georges, just out of curiosity, why do you have the Hebrew letter shin as your avatar? Are you a Messianic Jew?

 

[cyberjosh]

"If I cast out devils by the "Power" of God"......Of course as Jesus is the Agent of Jehovah, Jehovah gave Jesus (at his baptism) his complete power. Some of the people were saying the "power of God" was the "power of Satan". Does Satan have a Unholy Spirit that runs around separate of himself? Of course not... This verse simply states that the people were blaspheming the "Holy Power" that Jehovah energized Jesus with...

You put too much stock in paralleling spirit and power. These are completely different words and have different uses. The Spirit has power, but the Spirit is not power itself. You have also dismissed all the personifications of the Spirit. If you could please address the verses where the Spirit is personified, that would be a big step forward (such as the Spirit being greived [Ephesians 4:30], interceeding for us with unutterable words on our behalf [Romans 8:26], etc.).

 

[Georges]

This is off-topic, but...

Georges, just out of curiosity, why do you have the Hebrew letter shin as your avatar? Are you a Messianic Jew?

Nope just your average Joe God fearer....I just sincerely believe that all things biblical should be interpreted from a Hebraic point of view....Since I've started interpreting things from that view, a whole new world has opened up for me....and I can't get enough of the study.

The Shin.....I use the shin because I believe it to be the mark (seal) that will distinguish the 144000 of Revelation in the future tribulation period....I believe that the future "beast" will have his counterfiet shin in the Vav Vav Vav (6,6,6). That's it in a nutshell...

Where most people think that

 

[Georges]

"If I cast out devils by the "Power" of God"......Of course as Jesus is the Agent of Jehovah, Jehovah gave Jesus (at his baptism) his complete power. Some of the people were saying the "power of God" was the "power of Satan". Does Satan have a Unholy Spirit that runs around separate of himself? Of course not... This verse simply states that the people were blaspheming the "Holy Power" that Jehovah energized Jesus with...

You put too much stock in paralleling spirit and power.

Not so Cyber ...if that's the way it is...that's the way it is....Vic wanted an explanation...I gave him a very viable one....\

These are completely different words and have different uses.

Same words...different uses...imho...

The Spirit has power, but the Spirit is not power itself.

The definition in strongs suggest's it is power...but I can see your point as well...

You have also dismissed all the personifications of the Spirit.

In this application yes I have....why? because it doesn't align with Judaism....What does it align with? Hellenist Philosophy? maybe...as trinitarianism developed from our Christian fathers who a great deal of them were schooled in Greek philosophy...point being...in Judaism, the Holy Spirit is not a person...it is a thing.

If you could please address the verses where the Spirit is personified, that would be a big step forward (such as the Spirit being greived [Ephesians 4:30], interceeding for us with unutterable words on our behalf [Romans 8:26], etc.).

I dislike a great deal discussing Paul....because he uses Gnosto-mystery terms in his letters....Paul presents things the others (Apostles) don't such as the above...but as I suggested to Vic as well in posts above, Cyber, does your spirit not greive? Is your spirit separate from your body as it's own entity?

Thanks Cyber....

 

[cyberjosh]

The Shin.....I use the shin because I believe it to be the mark (seal) that will distinguish the 144000 of Revelation in the future tribulation period....I believe that the future "beast" will have his counterfiet shin in the Vav Vav Vav (6,6,6). That's it in a nutshell...

That's an interesting theory, and I won't try to deter you from it much but just as a warning be careful not to get too much into the gematria aspect of such "studies" because they tend toward the mystical and give significange to even the specific angles at which a Hebrew letter may curve and try to extrapolate spiritual significance from fabricated mathematical combinations in Hebrew.

I am not accusing you of this, and your theory shows no ear marks of these cooky beleifs except that I should try to point out that the modern form the of the Hebrew letters are not the same as the ancient letters in which the Dead Dea Scrolls and certainly the originals were written. The Shin was originally depicted as in a "W" shape (in early and middle Hebrew) and it is thought to represent (pointed) teeth. And the Vav actually hasn't changed much except that it used to have two lines angling off of it in opposite directions (depicting a tent peg). My point is this: in the Bible times when it was scribed three Vavs would look nothing like a shin. Modern Hebrew square script was a contribution of Aramaic (the official langiage of the Persian emipre) alphabet in post-exilic times.

I've stidied Biblical Hebrew (ancient Hebrew) before, this is why I know this and I work on and off as a moderator at http://www.ancient-hebrew.org. You'd probably like that site if you like Hebrew. So feel free to check it out.

Here are some pages on that site relevant to what I just said:

1. Images of artifacts written in middle Hebrew (notice the "W" shaped characters, those are Shins)
2. Chart that shows the old, middle, and late forms of all the Hebrew letters
3. A great explanation & example of Hebrew words and their pictograph nature

~Josh

 

[cyberjosh]

In this application yes I have....why? because it doesn't align with Judaism....What does it align with? Hellenist Philosophy? maybe...as trinitarianism developed from our Christian fathers who a great deal of them were schooled in Greek philosophy...point being...in Judaism, the Holy Spirit is not a person...it is a thing.


I dislike a great deal discussing Paul....because he uses Gnosto-mystery terms in his letters....Paul presents things the others (Apostles) don't such as the above...but as I suggested to Vic as well in posts above, Cyber, does your spirit not greive? Is your spirit separate from your body as it's own entity?

Hellenist philosphy? No way, the Jews didn't like the Greeks or their culture very much. Remember the Maccabees? Remember Hanukkah? The disciples later must have learned Greek to write their epistles but they almost certainly were not raised in a Greek culture or knowing the Greek language. The priests in Acts called them uneducated. Now Paul may have been educated in Greek (maybe) at a young age but he was raised in pure Pharisaism under one of the best Jewish teachers of the time: Gamaliel. Gamliel was as revered as Rabbi Shammai and Hillel in Jewish history, and Saul (to become Paul) was most certainly a devout and zealous Jew, being schooled in the Torah his whole life.

And I also seriously doubt that John drew from Hellenist philosophy in his personal use of 'Logos'. Many Greek words in the NT which may have had a pagan background in Greek culture were used in completely different ways in the NT. Agape (love) is a prime example. The NT redefined love, and showed what true love (agape) was. Agape had never been used in such a sense in the Greek culture.

 

[Georges]

The Shin.....I use the shin because I believe it to be the mark (seal) that will distinguish the 144000 of Revelation in the future tribulation period....I believe that the future "beast" will have his counterfiet shin in the Vav Vav Vav (6,6,6). That's it in a nutshell...

That's an interesting theory, and I won't try to deter you from it much but just as a warning be careful not to get too much into the gematria aspect of such "studies" because they tend toward the mystical and give significange to even the specific angles at which a Hebrew letter may curve and try to extrapolate spiritual significance from fabricated mathematical combinations in Hebrew.

Thanks...been at it for quite a while....of course nothing in prophecy (unfullfilled) is 100% certain on how it will be fulfilled....however, there are things that make more sense than others...yes?

I am not accusing you of this, and your theory shows no ear marks of these cooky beleifs except that I should try to point out that the modern form the of the Hebrew letters are not the same as the ancient letters in which the Dead Dea Scrolls and certainly the originals were written. The Shin was originally depicted as in a "W" shape (in early and middle Hebrew) and it is thought to represent (pointed) teeth. And the Vav actually hasn't changed much except that it used to have two lines angling off of it in opposite directions (depicting a tent peg). My point is this: in the Bible times when it was scribed three Vavs would look nothing like a shin. Modern Hebrew square script was a contribution of Aramaic (the official langiage of the Persian emipre) alphabet in post-exilic times.

Cyber...you bring up a good point. Question for you....what did the shin look like when Revelation was written? I have seen the alphabet's....and I will do the research on the alphabet at the time of the Revelation...

I've stidied Biblical Hebrew (ancient Hebrew) before, this is why I know this and I work on and off as a moderator at http://www.ancient-hebrew.org. You'd probably like that site if you like Hebrew. So feel free to check it out.

Thanks for the website info...I will look at it....

Here are some pages on that site relevant to what I just said:

1. Images of artifacts written in middle Hebrew (notice the "W" shaped characters, those are Shins)
2. Chart that shows the old, middle, and late forms of all the Hebrew letters
3. A great explanation & example of Hebrew words and their pictograph nature

~Josh

Thanks Josh....