How about amillennialism?

[izzy]

I noticed that most of the posts on this forum are on interpreting Revelation in terms of the time of the rapture, the millennium, the specifics of the beast and the Antichrist, and all mostly from either a premillennial or postmillennial view. Has anyone heard of the amillennial view? (it is underlined in red by my spelling checker, so obviously my dictionary has not heard of it). I would suggest it as the best interpretation of Scripture, but I should probably lay it out and see what you all think.

Historical Background
Amillennialism was probably best formulated by Augustine and is currently still held by the Roman Catholic church, but it was also the interpretation of most of the Reformers (though forms of millennialism were not discussed much back then, because, let’s face it, this is not a doctrine essential to salvation - in fact, modern churches spend way too much time on this subject while the essential doctrines are ignored). Dispensationalism was only invented in the nineteenth century and was championed by Scofield, who wrote an entire Bible commentary highlighting this interpretation, though, to be fair, there was a kind of millennialism throughout church history. Postmillennialism started in the 1700’s and was popular during the time of the Great Awakening, but fell out of favour when the world wars occurred and things did not seem to improve.

Amillenialism
Amillennialists do not believe in a literal, thousand year, materialistic reign of Christ and his saints on earth. In John 18:36, Jesus states, “My kingdom is not of this world.†This and other passages would support a non-literal, spiritual millennium or kingdom. In this view, the millennium, instead, was ushered in by Christ at his death and resurrection and is symbolic of the fact that salvation has been made available to all peoples of the earth and that the Holy Spirit now dwells in the hearts of all believers. Whereas all other forms of millennialism would interpret Revelation 20:1-6 as a literal thousand year reign, the amillennialist would say that we are currently in this reign of Christ on earth and Satan has already been bound in the sense that he can no longer lead entire “nations astrayâ€. This is because Christians and God’s influence through them is now spread through all nations across the globe.
The tribulation, too, is not a literal seven year period. In fact, the amillennialist would say that we are currently in the tribulation and that it will steadily get worse until the time of completion (seven is often used in the Bible to signify completion and perfection). Satan being let loose would represent the state of the world becoming more hostile to Christianity till it is like the days of Noah. In this sense, the amillennialist shares some ground with the premillennialist.
Finally, there will be the second coming of Christ - no second second coming, just a singular, cataclysmic event (the rapture) in which every dead person will be raised and every eye will behold Christ as the glorious victor. Judgement will follow immediately after and Satan and all his angels will be thrown into the lake of fire. There will be a new heaven and a new earth and all sin and death will be destroyed from it. Christians will live forever with Christ in this perfect state.

The problem I see with premillennialism and postmillennialism is that it relies too heavily on a single passage in Revelation to make the case for an earthly millennium, while the rest of the New Testament talks about the resurrection, the rapture, tribulation in a prolonged sense, judgement of the wicked, the perfection of heaven, and the desolation and despair of hell. These are all things that the amillennialist holds as essential to their view of eschatology, so they are by no means contradicting Scripture. When it comes to interpreting Scripture, the conservative, and I might say, amillennial, view is to interpret things “literal if possible.†This means that if the grammar and the historical context of the passage holds up to a literal interpretation, than a literal one it is. If not, then it is a question of what is trying to be communicated. For instance, the parables of Christ were not literally true stories, but were still intended to teach the Truth.

 

[glorydaz]

I fit better with amil than anything else. It isn't that there isn't a millennium, it's just that we're in it already. I agree too much emphasis has been placed on Rev. 20. I don't see it supported in the rest of the Bible. I believe the thousand years is symbolic and stretches from the cross to the the second coming. Then comes the judgment (only one)..with no 1000 yrs. tacked on before a final judgment.

 

[D4Christ]

The problem I see with premillennialism and postmillennialism is that it relies too heavily on a single passage in Revelation to make the case for an earthly millennium, while the rest of the New Testament talks about the resurrection, the rapture, tribulation in a prolonged sense, judgement of the wicked, the perfection of heaven, and the desolation and despair of hell. These are all things that the amillennialist holds as essential to their view of eschatology, so they are by no means contradicting Scripture. When it comes to interpreting Scripture, the conservative, and I might say, amillennial, view is to interpret things “literal if possible.†This means that if the grammar and the historical context of the passage holds up to a literal interpretation, than a literal one it is. If not, then it is a question of what is trying to be communicated. For instance, the parables of Christ were not literally true stories, but were still intended to teach the Truth.

Perhaps you should check your facts. Yes Rev speaks about a 1,000 year reign where Yahushua rules, but the OT is ripe full of passages that speak of the day when the Lord will once again rule the earth from Jerusalem. The earthly millennium is no fantasy but is supported throughout scriptures. Even so, if God only chose to have it mentioned one time in His infinite wisdom, do people really have the guts to tell the Lord that what he said is fantasy because He only says it once. It makes sense to me even more that Christ was reluctant to show miracles....He said even when He shows people the Truth they still refuse to believe.

As for the parables of Christ…..Christ was very clear when he was speaking in parables or using examples to get His point across. Most parables are followed by statements that say something like, ‘this is what this parable means….’ (paraphrased…). His parables were not meant to be confusing as He clearly explained His intentions with the stories.

So, either you will believe the scriptures that speak of a literal day when Jerusalem will live in peace as the center of the world with David’s descendant (aka Christ) leading them or you will chalk it up to imagination.

 

[glorydaz]

Oh no....not quite that simple. People have taken verses from the OT that are not meant to be speaking of a future kingdom on earth just because they seem to fit their idea of a future kingdom, when in reality they speak of Christ's first coming or a different period in Israel's history.

 

[D4Christ]

Oh no....not quite that simple. People have taken verses from the OT that are not meant to be speaking of a future kingdom on earth just because they seem to fit their idea of a future kingdom, when in reality they speak of Christ's first coming or a different period in Israel's history.

Well I'm sure glad I don't fall into that category of people. Because this scripture to my knowledge...unless the Lord is on earth now ruling from Jerusalem....is a future event.

Isaiah 6

1 This is a vision that Isaiah son of Amoz saw concerning Judah and Jerusalem:
2 In the last days, the mountain of the Lord’s house
will be the highest of all—
the most important place on earth.
It will be raised above the other hills,
and people from all over the world will stream there to worship.
3 People from many nations will come and say,
“Come, let us go up to the mountain of the Lord,
to the house of Jacob’s God.
There he will teach us his ways,
and we will walk in his paths.â€
For the Lord’s teaching will go out from Zion;
his word will go out from Jerusalem.
4 The Lord will mediate between nations
and will settle international disputes.
They will hammer their swords into plowshares
and their spears into pruning hooks.
Nation will no longer fight against nation,
nor train for war anymore.

 

[glorydaz]

Oh no....not quite that simple. People have taken verses from the OT that are not meant to be speaking of a future kingdom on earth just because they seem to fit their idea of a future kingdom, when in reality they speak of Christ's first coming or a different period in Israel's history.

Well I'm sure glad I don't fall into that category of people. Because this scripture to my knowledge...unless the Lord is on earth now ruling from Jerusalem....is a future event.

Isaiah 6

1 This is a vision that Isaiah son of Amoz saw concerning Judah and Jerusalem:
2 In the last days, the mountain of the Lord’s house
will be the highest of all—
the most important place on earth.
It will be raised above the other hills,
and people from all over the world will stream there to worship.
3 People from many nations will come and say,
“Come, let us go up to the mountain of the Lord,
to the house of Jacob’s God.
There he will teach us his ways,
and we will walk in his paths.â€
For the Lord’s teaching will go out from Zion;
his word will go out from Jerusalem.
4 The Lord will mediate between nations
and will settle international disputes.
They will hammer their swords into plowshares
and their spears into pruning hooks.
Nation will no longer fight against nation,
nor train for war anymore.

This is a Messianic prophecy...concerning our Lord's first coming.
It's Isaiah 2, BTW.

"People from many nations....he will teach us his way, we will walk in his paths....our Lord brought peace... There are many prophecies of the coming Messiah...they always say latter days or last days.
This is one of many. Notice how it speaks of the law going forth from Zion and the Word of the Lord from Jerusalem. Clearly a Messianic prophecy. A calling out of the Gentiles and a rebuke of the Jewish practices. Rebuke... By his word and Spirit, convincing the world of sin and by his judgments upon his enemies that obstruct the gospel message. The light - Take heed that you do not reject that light which is so clear that even the Gentiles will discern it.

And many people shall go and say, Come ye, and let us go up to the mountain of the LORD, to the house of the God of Jacob; and he will teach us of his ways, and we will walk in his paths: for out of Zion shall go forth the law, and the word of the LORD from Jerusalem.
4And he shall judge among the nations, and shall rebuke many people: and they shall beat their swords into plowshares, and their spears into pruninghooks: nation shall not lift up sword against nation, neither shall they learn war any more.

5 O house of Jacob, come ye, and let us walk in the light of the LORD.

 

[veteran]

There is Old Testament Scripture which does support what Rev.20 shows about a delayed time period after Christ's coming and before the Judgment.

Isa 24:20-22
20 The earth shall reel to and fro like a drunkard, and shall be removed like a cottage; and the transgression thereof shall be heavy upon it; and it shall fall, and not rise again.
21 And it shall come to pass in that day, that the LORD shall punish the host of the high ones that are on high, and the kings of the earth upon the earth.
22 And they shall be gathered together, as prisoners are gathered in the pit, and shall be shut up in the prison, and after many days shall they be visited.
(KJV)

And about Satan himself being locked in the pit...

Isa 14:13-17
13 For thou hast said in thine heart, "I will ascend into heaven, I will exalt my throne above the stars of God: I will sit also upon the mount of the congregation, in the sides of the north:
14 I will ascend above the heights of the clouds; I will be like the most High."
15 Yet thou shalt be brought down to hell, to the sides of the pit.
16 They that see thee shall narrowly look upon thee, and consider thee, saying, "Is this the man that made the earth to tremble, that did shake kingdoms;
17 That made the world as a wilderness, and destroyed the cities thereof; that opened not the house of his prisoners?"(KJV)

There's also a NT reference to false Jews of the "synagogue of Satan" being made to bow in worship to Christ at the feet of His elect...

Rev 3:9
9 Behold, I will make them of the synagogue of Satan, which say they are Jews, and are not, but do lie; behold, I will make them to come and worship before thy feet, and to know that I have loved thee.
(KJV)

Psalms is also specific that Christ will rule in the midst of His enemies...

Ps 110:1-6
1 The LORD said unto my Lord, Sit thou at my right hand, until I make thine enemies thy footstool.
2 The LORD shall send the rod of thy strength out of Zion: rule thou in the midst of thine enemies.
3 Thy people shall be willing in the day of thy power, in the beauties of holiness from the womb of the morning: thou hast the dew of thy youth.
4 The LORD hath sworn, and will not repent, Thou art a priest for ever after the order of Melchizedek.
5 The Lord at thy right hand shall strike through kings in the day of his wrath.
6 He shall judge among the heathen, he shall fill the places with the dead bodies; he shall wound the heads over many countries.
(KJV)

Ps 22:27-29
27 All the ends of the world shall remember and turn unto the LORD: and all the kindreds of the nations shall worship before thee.
28 For the kingdom is the LORD's: and He is the governor among the nations.
29 All they that be fat upon earth shall eat and worship: all they that go down to the dust shall bow before Him: and none can keep alive his own soul.
(KJV)


As also 1 Cor.15 is...

1 Cor 15:25-28
25 For He must reign, till He hath put all enemies under His feet.
26 The last enemy that shall be destroyed is death.
27 For He hath put all things under His feet. But when He saith, all things are put under Him, it is manifest that He is excepted, Which did put all things under Him.
28 And when all things shall be subdued unto Him, then shall the Son also Himself be subject unto Him That put all things under Him, that God may be all in all.
(KJV)

The Father has put all things under Christ Jesus, and Christ must reign first, The Father being excepted in that. And when Christ has put down all authority and all enemies under His feet by His reign given Him by The Father, then Christ will deliver up the Kingdom to The Father. These verses are a literal time of Christ's reign on earth, a time which has not yet begun, since it is for after His second coming.


Isa 45:22-24
22 Look unto Me, and be ye saved, all the ends of the earth: for I am God, and there is none else.
23 I have sworn by Myself, the word is gone out of My mouth in righteousness, and shall not return, That unto Me every knee shall bow, every tongue shall swear.
24 Surely, shall one say, in the LORD have I righteousness and strength: even to Him shall men come; and all that are incensed against Him shall be ashamed.
(KJV)

Isa 49:22-23
22 Thus saith the Lord GOD, Behold, I will lift up Mine hand to the Gentiles, and set up My standard to the people: and they shall bring thy sons in their arms, and thy daughters shall be carried upon their shoulders.
23 And kings shall be thy nursing fathers, and their queens thy nursing mothers: they shall bow down to thee with their face toward the earth, and lick up the dust of thy feet; and thou shalt know that I am the LORD: for they shall not be ashamed that wait for Me.
(KJV)

Isa 60:14
14 The sons also of them that afflicted thee shall come bending unto thee; and all they that despised thee shall bow themselves down at the soles of thy feet; and they shall call thee, The city of the LORD, The Zion of the Holy One of Israel.
(KJV)

Phil 2:9-11
9 Wherefore God also hath highly exalted Him, and given Him a name which is above every name:
10 That at the name of Jesus every knee should bow, of things in heaven, and things in earth, and things under the earth;
11 And that every tongue should confess that Jesus Christ is Lord, to the glory of God the Father.
(KJV)

This reveals that Revelation 20 means what it says, as written. That specific "thousand years" reign is set for when Christ returns to this earth, and then all His enemies are made His footstool. They are not destroyed then, because these Scripture examples also show the wicked are there bowing to Him in that day of Christ. So why favor doctrines of men like amilennialism in place of what's written?

 

[izzy]

This is a Messianic prophecy...concerning our Lord's first coming.
It's Isaiah 2, BTW.

"People from many nations....he will teach us his way, we will walk in his paths....our Lord brought peace... There are many prophecies of the coming Messiah...they always say latter days or last days.
This is one of many. Notice how it speaks of the law going forth from Zion and the Word of the Lord from Jerusalem. Clearly a Messianic prophecy. A calling out of the Gentiles and a rebuke of the Jewish practices. Rebuke... By his word and Spirit, convincing the world of sin and by his judgments upon his enemies that obstruct the gospel message. The light - Take heed that you do not reject that light which is so clear that even the Gentiles will discern it.

I agree. This is a Messianic prophecy. Often these prophecies talk about the throne of David and the establishment of a kingdom with no end. Jesus fulfilled these because he was of the line of David and his kingdom will have no end, but it is not a physical one on earth. The Jews had the same misconception that the Messiah would come and reign over them and save them from the tyranny of Rome, but when the people tried to make Jesus king, he actually ran away (John 6:15).

 

[glorydaz]

This is a Messianic prophecy...concerning our Lord's first coming.
It's Isaiah 2, BTW.

"People from many nations....he will teach us his way, we will walk in his paths....our Lord brought peace... There are many prophecies of the coming Messiah...they always say latter days or last days.
This is one of many. Notice how it speaks of the law going forth from Zion and the Word of the Lord from Jerusalem. Clearly a Messianic prophecy. A calling out of the Gentiles and a rebuke of the Jewish practices. Rebuke... By his word and Spirit, convincing the world of sin and by his judgments upon his enemies that obstruct the gospel message. The light - Take heed that you do not reject that light which is so clear that even the Gentiles will discern it.

I agree. This is a Messianic prophecy. Often these prophecies talk about the throne of David and the establishment of a kingdom with no end. Jesus fulfilled these because he was of the line of David and his kingdom will have no end, but it is not a physical one on earth. The Jews had the same misconception that the Messiah would come and reign over them and save them from the tyranny of Rome, but when the people tried to make Jesus king, he actually ran away (John 6:15).

I don't believe any of the prophets speak to a millennium reign on the earth after the Lord's coming.
They were looking forward to the Messiah. They spoke of salvation and judgment, but just as the Jews were fooled by things writen, many today are being fooled in the same way. God has always ruled in the midst of His enemies...from the beginning of time. He's always ruled with a rod of iron, and a rod of correction for His children. He never wanted a temple built with human hands. There is but one harvest and one judgment when the Lord returns. Mainly, there is no purpose for a tacked on 1000 year kindom on earth. It makes no sense and neither Jesus nor the disciples ever preached such a thing.

 

[veteran]

Isaiah 2 is ESPECIALLY about Christ's SECOND coming and the Day of The LORD. Apostles Paul and Peter both proclaimed Jesus' second coming "as a thief" on that day of the Lord.

Isa 2:1-22
1 The word that Isaiah the son of Amoz saw concerning Judah and Jerusalem.

This prophecy is given concerning Judah and Jerusalem. That's on earth, so don't confuse this with some mystical wondering of being up in the heavens.

2 And it shall come to pass in the last days, that the mountain of the LORD's house shall be established in the top of the mountains, and shall be exalted above the hills; and all nations shall flow unto it.
3 And many people shall go and say, "Come ye, and let us go up to the mountain of the LORD, to the house of the God of Jacob; and He will teach us of His ways, and we will walk in His paths: for out of Zion shall go forth the law, and the word of the LORD from Jerusalem.

This part is all future, even after Christ's second coming. In the Milennium chapters of Ezekiel 40-48, the building or temple of worship is called a "house". And there is a law of the house that will be followed then. So this law of verse 3 is about that laws of the house which will be established there in the future during Christ's "thousand years" reign. Ezekiel shows the City there located in the "land of Israel". So it's about the literal area on earth where Jerusalem is, like the prophecy says at the start. Thus the "out of Zion" means Mount Zion in Jerusalem on earth, after Christ's return. That is the Holy City of Revelation 22 will be situated, as the River of the waters of life are shown there in Ezekiel 47.

Since when did all nations flow unto that area at Christ's first coming? They didn't, for the next verse is included in that idea...

4 And He shall judge among the nations, and shall rebuke many people: and they shall beat their swords into plowshares, and their spears into pruninghooks: nation shall not lift up sword against nation, neither shall they learn war any more.
5 O house of Jacob, come ye, and let us walk in the light of the LORD.

There's only one time when true peace will be established in that area of Jerusalem. It's when Christ returns at the second coming. There certainly was no peace there at Christ's first coming, nor thereafter, and wars did not stop at His first coming. It's impossible to confuse these events with His first coming.

The next few verses revert back to a previous time.

6 Therefore Thou hast forsaken thy people the house of Jacob, because they be replenished from the east, and are soothsayers like the Philistines, and they please themselves in the children of strangers.
7 Their land also is full of silver and gold, neither is there any end of their treasures; their land is also full of horses, neither is there any end of their chariots:
8 Their land also is full of idols; they worship the work of their own hands, that which their own fingers have made:
9 And the mean man boweth down, and the great man humbleth himself: therefore forgive them not.

Those Isaiah 2:6-9 verses are given in the sense of how God's people have forsaken Him, both in the past and all the way up to the end of this present world. It's a contrast to show the different timelines being given in this chapter of Isaiah 2. And that type of contrast flows throughout the Book of Isaiah, back and forth. So it's important to 'rightly divide' God's Truth here like how our Lord Jesus showed in Luke 4 concerning Isaiah 61:1-2.

10 Enter into the rock, and hide thee in the dust, for fear of the LORD, and for the glory of His majesty.
11 The lofty looks of man shall be humbled, and the haughtiness of men shall be bowed down, and the LORD alone shall be exalted in that day.

What timing is that for, when many will seek to hide from the face of The Lamb? (see end of Rev.6:14-17). That event is going to be referred to here in Isaiah 2 again later. The LORD alone will be exalted in that day. What day?..

12 For the day of the LORD of hosts shall be upon every one that is proud and lofty, and upon every one that is lifted up; and he shall be brought low:
13 And upon all the cedars of Lebanon, that are high and lifted up, and upon all the oaks of Bashan,
14 And upon all the high mountains, and upon all the hills that are lifted up,
15 And upon every high tower, and upon every fenced wall,
16 And upon all the ships of Tarshish, and upon all pleasant pictures.
17 And the loftiness of man shall be bowed down, and the haughtiness of men shall be made low: and the LORD alone shall be exalted in that day.
18 And the idols He shall utterly abolish.

That means an end of this present world, as this is about Christ's second coming, His return to this earth to rule. All the houses of vanity and idol worship will be destroyed that's still going on today.

19 And they shall go into the holes of the rocks, and into the caves of the earth, for fear of the LORD, and for the glory of His majesty, when He ariseth to shake terribly the earth.

Here's that hiding the wicked will do on that day (Rev.6), wanting to hide from Christ's Presence when He returns to this earth.

20 In that day a man shall cast his idols of silver, and his idols of gold, which they made each one for himself to worship, to the moles and to the bats;
21 To go into the clefts of the rocks, and into the tops of the ragged rocks, for fear of the LORD, and for the glory of His majesty, when He ariseth to shake terribly the earth.

In that day, the false worshippers will cast their idols away. And here once again, is the event of the wicked who will seek to hide from the Presence of Christ in that day. That's 3 times given here in Isaiah 2 for emphasis. You know what that means? It's a type of 'seal' God uses in His Word for something He says He will do; and we can depend on it coming forth like He foretold through His prophets.

22 Cease ye from man, whose breath is in his nostrils: for wherein is he to be accounted of?
(KJV)

So why listen to men's doctrines and traditions which will be cast away like those worthless idols on that Day? Listen to God in His Word.

 

[glorydaz]

Veteran...There is nothing in any of those verses that speak of a temporary kingdom on earth after our Lord returns. Every knee shall bow and confess Jesus is Lord, but that will be at the judgment when every man will see his Creator. The earth reels with sin now....satan was defeated at the cross, he's been bound so the gospel can go forth, but he will be loosed for a short time just before our Lord's return and then he will be thrown into the lake of fire. The Day of the Lord will come....the harvest, the judgment, the wedding supper and then eternity wherein only righteousness will dwell.

 

[glorydaz]

So why listen to men's doctrines and traditions which will be cast away like those worthless idols on that Day? Listen to God in His Word.

Sorry, Veteran, but I believe I am listening to the Word of God. You are reading those verses with a preconceived notion...which is why you're so sure you are correct. Some claim only the last 26 verses of Isaiah speak of the future, but you're seeing the future in Isaiah 2. Isaiah wrote during the same time as Kings were written. He was looking forward to the Messiah. He was speaking of judgment on Israel and the salvation that was to come. None of those verses has anything to do with the end days. Take any of the Messianic prophecies....some that are more obvious, and they all speak of the last days and the latter days. It's really silly to claim we are listening to men's doctrines and traditions when, in my opinion, that's exactly what you are doing. The futurist prophecy movement is quite recent in history. If you look at the entire book of Isaiah, instead of taking out portions that point to some possible future kingdom on earth, you may see it through a clearer light.

 

[glorydaz]

Since when did all nations flow unto that area at Christ's first coming? They didn't, for the next verse is included in that idea...

Let's just take this piece-meal. This is exactly what I'm talking about.

And there were dwelling at Jerusalem Jews, devout men, out of every nation under heaven.

 

[glorydaz]

10 Enter into the rock, and hide thee in the dust, for fear of the LORD, and for the glory of His majesty.
11 The lofty looks of man shall be humbled, and the haughtiness of men shall be bowed down, and the LORD alone shall be exalted in that day.

What timing is that for, when many will seek to hide from the face of The Lamb? (see end of Rev.6:14-17). That event is going to be referred to here in Isaiah 2 again later. The LORD alone will be exalted in that day. What day?..

Here, too....this is not an uncommon event. Israel was attacked many times...they often ran and hid in caves when in dire straits.

When the men of Israel saw that they were in a strait, (for the people were distressed,) then the people did hide themselves in caves, and in thickets, and in rocks, and in high places, and in pits.

You can be sure they were hiding....the earth shook, the sky grew dark and people were lamenting what had happened when Jesus was crucified.

And it was about the sixth hour, and there was a darkness over all the earth until the ninth hour. And the sun was darkened, and the veil of the temple was rent in the midst. And when Jesus had cried with a loud voice, he said, Father, into thy hands I commend my spirit: and having said thus, he gave up the ghost. Now when the centurion saw what was done, he glorified God, saying, Certainly this was a righteous man. And all the people that came together to that sight, beholding the things which were done, smote their breasts, and returned.

 

[veteran]

Veteran...There is nothing in any of those verses that speak of a temporary kingdom on earth after our Lord returns. Every knee shall bow and confess Jesus is Lord, but that will be at the judgment when every man will see his Creator. The earth reels with sin now....satan was defeated at the cross, he's been bound so the gospel can go forth, but he will be loosed for a short time just before our Lord's return and then he will be thrown into the lake of fire. The Day of the Lord will come....the harvest, the judgment, the wedding supper and then eternity wherein only righteousness will dwell.

You're simply not reading that Scripture as it's written man.

Isa 2:1-3
1 The word that Isaiah the son of Amoz saw concerning Judah and Jerusalem.
2 And it shall come to pass in the last days, that the mountain of the LORD's house shall be established in the top of the mountains, and shall be exalted above the hills; and all nations shall flow unto it.
3 And many people shall go and say, Come ye, and let us go up to the mountain of the LORD, to the house of the God of Jacob; and he will teach us of his ways, and we will walk in his paths: for out of Zion shall go forth the law, and the word of the LORD from Jerusalem.
(KJV)

That's about the establishing of The LORD's House on earth, called "Zion", and notice where it is there, in Jerusalem. Remember our Lord Jesus when He said in His Father's house are many mansions (abodes)? And the He promised to prepare a place for His disciples there in John 14 whom He said that to?

That's also the "house" of Ezekiel 40-48. In those Ezekiel Scriptures, we're given specific locations on the earth where that house will be located, even the River of Revelation 22.

Notice also what event that is speaking about in comparison to the Rev.6 Scripture...

Isa 2:20-21
20 In that day a man shall cast his idols of silver, and his idols of gold, which they made each one for himself to worship, to the moles and to the bats;
21 To go into the clefts of the rocks, and into the tops of the ragged rocks, for fear of the LORD, and for the glory of his majesty, when he ariseth to shake terribly the earth.
(KJV)

Rev 6:15-17
15 And the kings of the earth, and the great men, and the rich men, and the chief captains, and the mighty men, and every bondman, and every free man, hid themselves in the dens and in the rocks of the mountains;
16 And said to the mountains and rocks, Fall on us, and hide us from the face of Him That sitteth on the throne, and from the wrath of the Lamb:
17 For the great day of His wrath is come; and who shall be able to stand?
(KJV)

That's not about Christ's first coming, it's about His second coming, which is still future to us. That's the day of His wrath at the end of this present world. And that's the timing Isaiah 2 is talking about. Rev.21-22 is not the only Scripture which declares where the New Jerusalem will come down to earth at.

 

[D4Christ]

"People from many nations....he will teach us his way, we will walk in his paths....our Lord brought peace... There are many prophecies of the coming Messiah...they always say latter days or last days.
This is one of many. Notice how it speaks of the law going forth from Zion and the Word of the Lord from Jerusalem. Clearly a Messianic prophecy. A calling out of the Gentiles and a rebuke of the Jewish practices. Rebuke... By his word and Spirit, convincing the world of sin and by his judgments upon his enemies that obstruct the gospel message. The light - Take heed that you do not reject that light which is so clear that even the Gentiles will discern it.

And many people shall go and say, Come ye, and let us go up to the mountain of the LORD, to the house of the God of Jacob; and he will teach us of his ways, and we will walk in his paths: for out of Zion shall go forth the law, and the word of the LORD from Jerusalem.
4And he shall judge among the nations, and shall rebuke many people: and they shall beat their swords into plowshares, and their spears into pruninghooks: nation shall not lift up sword against nation, neither shall they learn war any more.
5 O house of Jacob, come ye, and let us walk in the light of the LORD.

When did Christ judge the nations when He was here on earth? The gospels tell us Christ went into the synagogues to preach God’s message to the Jews. Paul took the message to the gentiles. I guess it would be simple enough to show me a passage where Christ…while on earth…judged the nations….and even simpler to show where the nations stopped fighting and going to war.

Isaiah 65

18 Be glad; rejoice forever in my creation!
And look! I will create Jerusalem as a place of happiness.
Her people will be a source of joy.
19 I will rejoice over Jerusalem
and delight in my people.
And the sound of weeping and crying
will be heard in it no more.
20 “No longer will babies die when only a few days old.
No longer will adults die before they have lived a full life.
No longer will people be considered old at one hundred!
Only the cursed will die that young!
21 In those days people will live in the houses they build
and eat the fruit of their own vineyards.
22 Unlike the past, invaders will not take their houses
and confiscate their vineyards.
For my people will live as long as trees,
and my chosen ones will have time to enjoy their hard-won gains.
23 They will not work in vain,
and their children will not be doomed to misfortune.
For they are people blessed by the Lord,
and their children, too, will be blessed.
24 I will answer them before they even call to me.
While they are still talking about their needs,
I will go ahead and answer their prayers!
25 The wolf and the lamb will feed together.
The lion will eat hay like a cow.
But the snakes will eat dust.
In those days no one will be hurt or destroyed on my holy mountain.
I, the Lord, have spoken!â€

Isaiah 65 has already happened…or is it a future event?

Isaiah 66

23 “All humanity will come to worship me
from week to week
and from month to month.
24 And as they go out, they will see
the dead bodies of those who have rebelled against me.
For the worms that devour them will never die,
and the fire that burns them will never go out.
All who pass by
will view them with utter horror.â€

Those who rebelled against the Lord are those killed during the DOL. This can’t be a past event because all humanity does not pilgrimage to worship the Lord in Zion, nor are we passing the bodies of the Lord’s enemies along the way.

Must be a future event.

 

[JudaicChristian]

This is a Messianic prophecy...concerning our Lord's first coming.
It's Isaiah 2, BTW.

"People from many nations....he will teach us his way, we will walk in his paths....our Lord brought peace... There are many prophecies of the coming Messiah...they always say latter days or last days.
This is one of many. Notice how it speaks of the law going forth from Zion and the Word of the Lord from Jerusalem. Clearly a Messianic prophecy. A calling out of the Gentiles and a rebuke of the Jewish practices. Rebuke... By his word and Spirit, convincing the world of sin and by his judgments upon his enemies that obstruct the gospel message. The light - Take heed that you do not reject that light which is so clear that even the Gentiles will discern it.

I agree. This is a Messianic prophecy. Often these prophecies talk about the throne of David and the establishment of a kingdom with no end. Jesus fulfilled these because he was of the line of David and his kingdom will have no end, but it is not a physical one on earth. The Jews had the same misconception that the Messiah would come and reign over them and save them from the tyranny of Rome, but when the people tried to make Jesus king, he actually ran away (John 6:15).

Christians are a grafted branch into Judah and Israel. God created the world to be inhabited. See here:
Isaiah 44:24
[ Jerusalem to Be Inhabited ] "This is what the LORD says— your Redeemer, who formed you in the womb: I am Yahwah, who has made all things, who alone stretched out the heavens, who spread out the earth by myself,

Isaiah 44:26
who carries out the words of his servants and fulfills the predictions of his messengers, who says of Jerusalem, 'It shall be inhabited,' of the towns of Judah, 'They shall be built,' and of their ruins, 'I will restore them,'

Isaiah 45:18
For this is what Yahwah says— he who created the heavens, he is God; he who fashioned and made the earth, he founded it; he did not create it to be empty, but formed it to be inhabited— he says: "I am Yahwah, and there is no other.

Jeremiah 17:25
then kings who sit on David's throne will come through the gates of this city with their officials. They and their officials will come riding in chariots and on horses, accompanied by the men of Judah and those living in Jerusalem, and this city will be inhabited forever.

 

[izzy]

Ezekiel shows the City there located in the "land of Israel". So it's about the literal area on earth where Jerusalem is, like the prophecy says at the start. Thus the "out of Zion" means Mount Zion in Jerusalem on earth, after Christ's return. That is the Holy City of Revelation 22 will be situated, as the River of the waters of life are shown there in Ezekiel 47.

What about the New Jerusalem mentioned in Revelation 21, just after Revelation 20? This city comes “down out of heaven from God†after the old heaven and earth has passed away (Revelation 21:1-2). How can you be so sure that the Jerusalem spoken of and longed for by the prophets was not this Jerusalem that comes after the resurrection and the judgment? I would be interested in doing a word study on Zion and Jerusalem to see when in the Bible it was used to refer to the literal city and when it was used to refer to the Church and the remnant of Israel. In Revelation 21:2, it describes the new Jerusalem as a bride, a term that is also often used for the Church in other parts of the New Testament.

As someone who believes in a spiritual instead of a material millennium, I would say that the whole picture of Scripture does not fit with a literal reign of Christ as a king in the geographic city of Jerusalem.
The main problems I find with millennialism are:

• 1. Millennialism states that the saints and martyrs will be resurrected at the millennium to reign with Christ, but the Bible indicates that there is no separation in time between the resurrection of the wicked and the righteous. How could the saints reign physically while all the wicked are rotting outside of the gates of Jerusalem after Christ supposedly conquers them all as an earthly victor? See Matthew 16:27, John 5:28-29, 2 Corinthians 5:10, Revelation 20:11-15 for immediacy of resurrection of wicked and righteous.
  
  2. A reign of saints in fleshly resurrected bodies (not yet perfected) to reign on an earth that is still corrupt is inconsistent with Scripture. While people in the Bible have been raised back from the dead in still corruptible bodies that died again later, Christ promises believers bodies like the one He had after His resurrection. For verses promising the incorruptible resurrection, look at 1 Corinthians 15:44-52, 1 Peter 1:4, 1 Peter 1:23.
  
  3. Millennialism is connected with an expectation that Christ’s reign in the hearts of people on earth will need to decline to a dreadful extent until Satan is finally bound. This view tends to create a passive endurance of evil with every disaster and twisted philosophy regarded as just another indication that “the Antichrist is almost here†or that the tribulation is almost here. It strips Christ of His kingdom power until the earthly millennium. The reality, however, is that the “gates of hell will not prevail against [the Church]†(Matthew 16:18). Generally, wherever God is at work, evil becomes more apparent as well and the devil is trying to destroy the work. Christ, however, is the “author and finisher†of our faith and He is already Lord. He WILL maintain the Church to the very end and we are commanded to keep up the good fight, not to let things slide because it is somehow inevitable. Also read Daniel 2:34-35. The great mountain is the kingdom of Christ and the spread of the Gospel throughout the earth.
  
  4. Millennialism relies heavily on prophetic passages only. The nature of prophecy is such that it is difficult, if not impossible, to interpret fully until it comes to completion. Prophecies in Daniel are quite clear now that we can look back and see what moments in history they referred to (the Greeks defeating the Persians and bringing the abomination to the temple, the Romans defeating the Greeks, etc.).

 

[glorydaz]

When did Christ judge the nations when He was here on earth? The gospels tell us Christ went into the synagogues to preach God’s message to the Jews. Paul took the message to the gentiles. I guess it would be simple enough to show me a passage where Christ…while on earth…judged the nations….and even simpler to show where the nations stopped fighting and going to war.

Those who rebelled against the Lord are those killed during the DOL. This can’t be a past event because all humanity does not pilgrimage to worship the Lord in Zion, nor are we passing the bodies of the Lord’s enemies along the way.

Must be a future event.

Here we see scripture and scripture fulfilled....a messianic prophecy.

But Esaias is very bold, and saith, I was found of them that sought me not; I was made manifest unto them that asked not after me. But to Israel he saith, All day long I have stretched forth my hands unto a disobedient and gainsaying people.

I am sought of them that asked not for me; I am found of them that sought me not: I said, Behold me, behold me, unto a nation that was not called by my name. I have spread out my hands all the day unto a rebellious people, which walketh in a way that was not good, after their own thoughts;

Isaiah over and over again reproached Israel for their sins...spoke of salvation...encouraged them with the coming Messiah....warned them of God's judgment for worshipping idols. They were attacked and put into bondage. There were many instances of dead bodies strewn about...there were many judgments on the nations. Many of the promises of peace and prosperity were conditional on Israel's obedience...when you read Chron. and Kings, you'll see that Isaiah is referring often times to what was going on then. That was when he was living. Quite of few of Isaiah's prophecies are quoted in the New Testament...many from parts of the prophets that people think speak of the last days. They thought they were in the last days back when the NT was written.

 

[glorydaz]

Ezekiel shows the City there located in the "land of Israel". So it's about the literal area on earth where Jerusalem is, like the prophecy says at the start. Thus the "out of Zion" means Mount Zion in Jerusalem on earth, after Christ's return. That is the Holy City of Revelation 22 will be situated, as the River of the waters of life are shown there in Ezekiel 47.

What about the New Jerusalem mentioned in Revelation 21, just after Revelation 20? This city comes “down out of heaven from God†after the old heaven and earth has passed away (Revelation 21:1-2). How can you be so sure that the Jerusalem spoken of and longed for by the prophets was not this Jerusalem that comes after the resurrection and the judgment? I would be interested in doing a word study on Zion and Jerusalem to see when in the Bible it was used to refer to the literal city and when it was used to refer to the Church and the remnant of Israel. In Revelation 21:2, it describes the new Jerusalem as a bride, a term that is also often used for the Church in other parts of the New Testament.

As someone who believes in a spiritual instead of a material millennium, I would say that the whole picture of Scripture does not fit with a literal reign of Christ as a king in the geographic city of Jerusalem.
The main problems I find with millennialism are:

• 1. Millennialism states that the saints and martyrs will be resurrected at the millennium to reign with Christ, but the Bible indicates that there is no separation in time between the resurrection of the wicked and the righteous. How could the saints reign physically while all the wicked are rotting outside of the gates of Jerusalem after Christ supposedly conquers them all as an earthly victor? See Matthew 16:27, John 5:28-29, 2 Corinthians 5:10, Revelation 20:11-15 for immediacy of resurrection of wicked and righteous.
  
  2. A reign of saints in fleshly resurrected bodies (not yet perfected) to reign on an earth that is still corrupt is inconsistent with Scripture. While people in the Bible have been raised back from the dead in still corruptible bodies that died again later, Christ promises believers bodies like the one He had after His resurrection. For verses promising the incorruptible resurrection, look at 1 Corinthians 15:44-52, 1 Peter 1:4, 1 Peter 1:23.
  
  3. Millennialism is connected with an expectation that Christ’s reign in the hearts of people on earth will need to decline to a dreadful extent until Satan is finally bound. This view tends to create a passive endurance of evil with every disaster and twisted philosophy regarded as just another indication that “the Antichrist is almost here†or that the tribulation is almost here. It strips Christ of His kingdom power until the earthly millennium. The reality, however, is that the “gates of hell will not prevail against [the Church]†(Matthew 16:18). Generally, wherever God is at work, evil becomes more apparent as well and the devil is trying to destroy the work. Christ, however, is the “author and finisher†of our faith and He is already Lord. He WILL maintain the Church to the very end and we are commanded to keep up the good fight, not to let things slide because it is somehow inevitable. Also read Daniel 2:34-35. The great mountain is the kingdom of Christ and the spread of the Gospel throughout the earth.
  
  4. Millennialism relies heavily on prophetic passages only. The nature of prophecy is such that it is difficult, if not impossible, to interpret fully until it comes to completion. Prophecies in Daniel are quite clear now that we can look back and see what moments in history they referred to (the Greeks defeating the Persians and bringing the abomination to the temple, the Romans defeating the Greeks, etc.).

I agree....I wish it wasn't so late, I love to talk with you some more.
I see the same problems you do....hopefully I'll get some time tomorrow.