How about amillennialism?

[glorydaz]

This is a Messianic prophecy...concerning our Lord's first coming.
It's Isaiah 2, BTW.

"People from many nations....he will teach us his way, we will walk in his paths....our Lord brought peace... There are many prophecies of the coming Messiah...they always say latter days or last days.
This is one of many. Notice how it speaks of the law going forth from Zion and the Word of the Lord from Jerusalem. Clearly a Messianic prophecy. A calling out of the Gentiles and a rebuke of the Jewish practices. Rebuke... By his word and Spirit, convincing the world of sin and by his judgments upon his enemies that obstruct the gospel message. The light - Take heed that you do not reject that light which is so clear that even the Gentiles will discern it.

I agree. This is a Messianic prophecy. Often these prophecies talk about the throne of David and the establishment of a kingdom with no end. Jesus fulfilled these because he was of the line of David and his kingdom will have no end, but it is not a physical one on earth. The Jews had the same misconception that the Messiah would come and reign over them and save them from the tyranny of Rome, but when the people tried to make Jesus king, he actually ran away (John 6:15).

Christians are a grafted branch into Judah and Israel. God created the world to be inhabited. See here:
Isaiah 44:24
[ Jerusalem to Be Inhabited ] "This is what the LORD says— your Redeemer, who formed you in the womb: I am Yahwah, who has made all things, who alone stretched out the heavens, who spread out the earth by myself,

Isaiah 44:26
who carries out the words of his servants and fulfills the predictions of his messengers, who says of Jerusalem, 'It shall be inhabited,' of the towns of Judah, 'They shall be built,' and of their ruins, 'I will restore them,'

Isaiah 45:18
For this is what Yahwah says— he who created the heavens, he is God; he who fashioned and made the earth, he founded it; he did not create it to be empty, but formed it to be inhabited— he says: "I am Yahwah, and there is no other.

Jeremiah 17:25
then kings who sit on David's throne will come through the gates of this city with their officials. They and their officials will come riding in chariots and on horses, accompanied by the men of Judah and those living in Jerusalem, and this city will be inhabited forever.

Isaiah 44 and 45 is the restoration of Israel by Cyrus.

Jeremiah 17 has nothing to do with the end days.

 

[D4Christ]

When did Christ judge the nations when He was here on earth? The gospels tell us Christ went into the synagogues to preach God’s message to the Jews. Paul took the message to the gentiles. I guess it would be simple enough to show me a passage where Christ…while on earth…judged the nations….and even simpler to show where the nations stopped fighting and going to war.

Those who rebelled against the Lord are those killed during the DOL. This can’t be a past event because all humanity does not pilgrimage to worship the Lord in Zion, nor are we passing the bodies of the Lord’s enemies along the way.

Must be a future event.

Isaiah over and over again reproached Israel for their sins...spoke of salvation...encouraged them with the coming Messiah....warned them of God's judgment for worshipping idols. They were attacked and put into bondage. There were many instances of dead bodies strewn about...there were many judgments on the nations. Many of the promises of peace and prosperity were conditional on Israel's obedience...when you read Chron. and Kings, you'll see that Isaiah is referring often times to what was going on then. That was when he was living. Quite of few of Isaiah's prophecies are quoted in the New Testament...many from parts of the prophets that people think speak of the last days. They thought they were in the last days back when the NT was written.

Interesting….so you're suggesting that the verses I highlighted in blue are prophecies that have come true. Well, this should be easy to settle since Jews older than trees would surely have been recorded historically. And I’m assuming the same would be true for the lion eating hay and the wolf and lamb feeding together. Tell me…is there a timeline on God’s prophecies? Did these things happen and then stop?...without ever being recorded, seeing as they are quite remarkable.
Or maybe God didn’t mean the whole prophecy was true? I would especially be interested to see your evidence that from week to week all humanity went to Jerusalem to worship God….the keyword being all.

- the sound of weeping and crying
will be heard in it no more.
- my people will live as long as trees
- The wolf and the lamb will feed together.
- The lion will eat hay like a cow.
But the snakes will eat dust.
- In those days no one will be hurt or destroyed on my holy mountain.
- “All humanity will come to worship me
from week to week
and from month to month.
- they will see the dead bodies of those who have rebelled against me.

 

[glorydaz]

When did Christ judge the nations when He was here on earth? The gospels tell us Christ went into the synagogues to preach God’s message to the Jews. Paul took the message to the gentiles. I guess it would be simple enough to show me a passage where Christ…while on earth…judged the nations….and even simpler to show where the nations stopped fighting and going to war.

Those who rebelled against the Lord are those killed during the DOL. This can’t be a past event because all humanity does not pilgrimage to worship the Lord in Zion, nor are we passing the bodies of the Lord’s enemies along the way.

Must be a future event.

Isaiah over and over again reproached Israel for their sins...spoke of salvation...encouraged them with the coming Messiah....warned them of God's judgment for worshipping idols. They were attacked and put into bondage. There were many instances of dead bodies strewn about...there were many judgments on the nations. Many of the promises of peace and prosperity were conditional on Israel's obedience...when you read Chron. and Kings, you'll see that Isaiah is referring often times to what was going on then. That was when he was living. Quite of few of Isaiah's prophecies are quoted in the New Testament...many from parts of the prophets that people think speak of the last days. They thought they were in the last days back when the NT was written.

Interesting….so you're suggesting that the verses I highlighted in blue are prophecies that have come true. Well, this should be easy to settle since Jews older than trees would surely have been recorded historically. And I’m assuming the same would be true for the lion eating hay and the wolf and lamb feeding together. Tell me…is there a timeline on God’s prophecies? Did these things happen and then stop?...without ever being recorded, seeing as they are quite remarkable.
Or maybe God didn’t mean the whole prophecy was true? I would especially be interested to see your evidence that from week to week all humanity went to Jerusalem to worship God….the keyword being all.

- the sound of weeping and crying
will be heard in it no more.
- my people will live as long as trees
- The wolf and the lamb will feed together.
- The lion will eat hay like a cow.
But the snakes will eat dust.
- In those days no one will be hurt or destroyed on my holy mountain.
- “All humanity will come to worship me
from week to week
and from month to month.
- they will see the dead bodies of those who have rebelled against me.

It would depend on if you take the words literally. I see Isaiah speaks poetically...painting word pictures. For instance...I believe the snakes shall eat dust refers to the power the church shall have over satan. The enemies of the church will be defeated by the gospel message. The saints will live at peace and live long lives. We will see how the Gospel judges people who remain in their sins.

And the LORD God said unto the serpent, Because thou hast done this, thou art cursed above all cattle, and above every beast of the field; upon thy belly shalt thou go, and dust shalt thou eat all the days of thy life:

The animals feeding with their natural enemies could be the enmity between the Jews and the Gentiles being eradicated by joining into the one body of the church. I don't claim to understand everything Isaiah is talking about, but I can recognize so much of what he writes as referring to spiritual things instead of just taking everything as literal. When I see verses that were quoted in the NT to explain what's happening at the time, then other portions become clearer.

 

[GodspromisesRyes]

I noticed that most of the posts on this forum are on interpreting Revelation in terms of the time of the rapture, the millennium, the specifics of the beast and the Antichrist, and all mostly from either a premillennial or postmillennial view. Has anyone heard of the amillennial view? (it is underlined in red by my spelling checker, so obviously my dictionary has not heard of it). I would suggest it as the best interpretation of Scripture, but I should probably lay it out and see what you all think.

Historical Background
Amillennialism was probably best formulated by Augustine and is currently still held by the Roman Catholic church, but it was also the interpretation of most of the Reformers (though forms of millennialism were not discussed much back then, because, let’s face it, this is not a doctrine essential to salvation - in fact, modern churches spend way too much time on this subject while the essential doctrines are ignored). Dispensationalism was only invented in the nineteenth century and was championed by Scofield, who wrote an entire Bible commentary highlighting this interpretation, though, to be fair, there was a kind of millennialism throughout church history. Postmillennialism started in the 1700’s and was popular during the time of the Great Awakening, but fell out of favour when the world wars occurred and things did not seem to improve.

Amillenialism
Amillennialists do not believe in a literal, thousand year, materialistic reign of Christ and his saints on earth. In John 18:36, Jesus states, “My kingdom is not of this world.†This and other passages would support a non-literal, spiritual millennium or kingdom. In this view, the millennium, instead, was ushered in by Christ at his death and resurrection and is symbolic of the fact that salvation has been made available to all peoples of the earth and that the Holy Spirit now dwells in the hearts of all believers. Whereas all other forms of millennialism would interpret Revelation 20:1-6 as a literal thousand year reign, the amillennialist would say that we are currently in this reign of Christ on earth and Satan has already been bound in the sense that he can no longer lead entire “nations astrayâ€. This is because Christians and God’s influence through them is now spread through all nations across the globe.
The tribulation, too, is not a literal seven year period. In fact, the amillennialist would say that we are currently in the tribulation and that it will steadily get worse until the time of completion (seven is often used in the Bible to signify completion and perfection). Satan being let loose would represent the state of the world becoming more hostile to Christianity till it is like the days of Noah. In this sense, the amillennialist shares some ground with the premillennialist.
Finally, there will be the second coming of Christ - no second second coming, just a singular, cataclysmic event (the rapture) in which every dead person will be raised and every eye will behold Christ as the glorious victor. Judgement will follow immediately after and Satan and all his angels will be thrown into the lake of fire. There will be a new heaven and a new earth and all sin and death will be destroyed from it. Christians will live forever with Christ in this perfect state.

The problem I see with premillennialism and postmillennialism is that it relies too heavily on a single passage in Revelation to make the case for an earthly millennium, while the rest of the New Testament talks about the resurrection, the rapture, tribulation in a prolonged sense, judgement of the wicked, the perfection of heaven, and the desolation and despair of hell. These are all things that the amillennialist holds as essential to their view of eschatology, so they are by no means contradicting Scripture. When it comes to interpreting Scripture, the conservative, and I might say, amillennial, view is to interpret things “literal if possible.†This means that if the grammar and the historical context of the passage holds up to a literal interpretation, than a literal one it is. If not, then it is a question of what is trying to be communicated. For instance, the parables of Christ were not literally true stories, but were still intended to teach the Truth.

i do not agree iwth amill, but i am also not dispensational nor do i believe that the 1000 yrs is literal. Peter tell us what DAY is like 1000 yrs with the Lord- He says it is the DAY OF THE LORD that is AS 1000 yrs, not that it IS 1000 yrs. So i believe that the DAY OF THE LORD the time of Gods wrath is what the millenial reign is and that it is not a literal 1000 yrs but is AS that.

 

[glorydaz]

i do not agree iwth amill, but i am also not dispensational nor do i believe that the 1000 yrs is literal. Peter tell us what DAY is like 1000 yrs with the Lord- He says it is the DAY OF THE LORD that is AS 1000 yrs, not that it IS 1000 yrs. So i believe that the DAY OF THE LORD the time of Gods wrath is what the millenial reign is and that it is not a literal 1000 yrs but is AS that.

Just like with the premil and other theories, there are differences in how people see amil. There is some reason God told us that a thousand years is as a day, and what you state makes much more sense than a thousand year kingdom tacked on after the day of the Lord. Personally, I see the thousand years as non-literal, too. I think it's the church age...stretching from the cross to the second coming, but it could be just the Day of the Lord, too. Who knows? It's a big subject.

 

[GodspromisesRyes]

i do not agree iwth amill, but i am also not dispensational nor do i believe that the 1000 yrs is literal. Peter tell us what DAY is like 1000 yrs with the Lord- He says it is the DAY OF THE LORD that is AS 1000 yrs, not that it IS 1000 yrs. So i believe that the DAY OF THE LORD the time of Gods wrath is what the millenial reign is and that it is not a literal 1000 yrs but is AS that.

Just like with the premil and other theories, there are differences in how people see amil. There is some reason God told us that a thousand years is as a day, and what you state makes much more sense than a thousand year kingdom tacked on after the day of the Lord. Personally, I see the thousand years as non-literal, too. I think it's the church age...stretching from the cross to the second coming, but it could be just the Day of the Lord, too. Who knows? It's a big subject.

i will show what first made me think this to be the case and it was about the context i never noticed before!
2Pe 3:7 But the heavens and the earth, which are now, by the same word are kept in store, reserved unto fire against the day of judgment and perdition of ungodly men.
2Pe 3:8 But, beloved, be not ignorant of this one thing, that one day [is] with the Lord as a thousand years, and a thousand years as one day.
2Pe 3:9 The Lord is not slack concerning his promise, as some men count slackness; but is longsuffering to us-ward, not willing that any should perish, but that all should come to repentance.
2Pe 3:10 ¶ But the day of the Lord will come as a thief in the night; in the which the heavens shall pass away with a great noise, and the elements shall melt with fervent heat, the earth also and the works that are therein shall be burned up.
2Pe 3:11 [Seeing] then [that] all these things shall be dissolved, what manner [of persons] ought ye to be in [all] holy conversation and godliness,

SO peter says be not ignorant ONE DAY is with the Lord AS a thousand years then he says but the DAY of the Lord!So then i was like hmmm and i looked up the psalm he was quoting and that is about the wrath of God also!

Psa 90:4 For a thousand years in thy sight [are but] as yesterday when it is past, and [as] a watch in the night.
Psa 90:5 Thou carriest them away as with a flood; they are [as] a sleep: in the morning [they are] like grass [which] groweth up.
Psa 90:6 In the morning it flourisheth, and groweth up; in the evening it is cut down, and withereth.
Psa 90:7 For we are consumed by thine anger, and by thy wrath are we troubled.
Psa 90:8 Thou hast set our iniquities before thee, our secret [sins] in the light of thy countenance.
Psa 90:9 For all our days are passed away in thy wrath: we spend our years as a tale [that is told].
Psa 90:10 The days of our years [are] threescore years and ten; and if by reason of strength [they be] fourscore years, yet [is] their strength labour and sorrow; for it is soon cut off, and we fly away.
Psa 90:11 Who knoweth the power of thine anger? even according to thy fear, [so is] thy wrath.
Psa 90:12 So teach [us] to number our days, that we may apply [our] hearts unto wisdom.
Psa 90:13 Return, O LORD, how long? and let it repent thee concerning thy servants.

So after looking closely at revelation and all the times itis saying a thousand years, i believe that it is showing differnt angles of the day of the Lord. That immediatly after tribulation the day of the Lord begins(6th seal 7th trump) that then during that time of wrath falling(all the 7 vials) satan is bound but not all demons just him. The saints who overcame rule with Christ for the whole day of the Lord and they rule on His throne with him with a rod of iron judgeing the nations.1Cr 6:2 Do ye not know that the saints shall judge the world? and if the world shall be judged by you, are ye unworthy to judge the smallest matters?
Then at the close of the day of the Lord satan is loosed to lead the kings of the earth against Jesus and us at his comming.

 

[D4Christ]

It would depend on if you take the words literally. I see Isaiah speaks poetically...painting word pictures. For instance...I believe the snakes shall eat dust refers to the power the church shall have over satan. The enemies of the church will be defeated by the gospel message. The saints will live at peace and live long lives.[That’s what I said…it’s a future event, not something already fulfilled.] We will see how the Gospel judges people who remain in their sins.

And the LORD God said unto the serpent, Because thou hast done this, thou art cursed above all cattle, and above every beast of the field; upon thy belly shalt thou go, and dust shalt thou eat all the days of thy life:

The animals feeding with their natural enemies could be the enmity between the Jews and the Gentiles being eradicated by joining into the one body of the church. [Did God say that was what that was or did you just make that up?] I don't claim to understand everything Isaiah is talking about, but I can recognize so much of what he writes as referring to spiritual things instead of just taking everything as literal. When I see verses that were quoted in the NT to explain what's happening at the time, then other portions become clearer.

If we cannot take the Lord at His word that from ‘week to week and month to month all humanity will come to worship Him,’ then I don’t see how anyone could really trust anything the bible tells us. His words are not a riddle….he didn’t state it was a parable or speak as if in a story…or use illustrious images to get his point across. Even those scriptures that use imagery plainly tell us, the beast means this, the dragon represents that, etc….God just said what He said. Those who spiritualize scriptures come up with their own conclusions…just like multiple movie endings….the reader can choose how they want a particular scenario to end.

But God is not a God of confusion leaving man to figure it all out by himself. If that was the case what type of afterlife could we all look forward to….some would await the New Jerusalem, while other claim that the New Jerusalem does not literally come down from the sky its just God’s way of saying we all join together. I know there are some scriptures that cause us to wonder but for the most part, God tell us when He is using illustrations and examples to get His point across.

 

[GodspromisesRyes]

If we cannot take the Lord at His word that from ‘week to week and month to month all humanity will come to worship Him,’ then I don’t see how anyone could really trust anything the bible tells us. His words are not a riddle….he didn’t state it was a parable or speak as if in a story…or use illustrious images to get his point across. Even those scriptures that use imagery plainly tell us, the beast means this, the dragon represents that, etc….God just said what He said. Those who spiritualize scriptures come up with their own conclusions…just like multiple movie endings….the reader can choose how they want a particular scenario to end.

But God is not a God of confusion leaving man to figure it all out by himself. If that was the case what type of afterlife could we all look forward to….some would await the New Jerusalem, while other claim that the New Jerusalem does not literally come down from the sky its just God’s way of saying we all join together. I know there are some scriptures that cause us to wonder but for the most part, God tell us when He is using illustrations and examples to get His point across.

I have to say that some of the things you said here can be rethought about. For instance you say that His words are not a riddle but truly they are. The word of God is not understood by the carnal mind because spiritual things are spiritually discerned. The word of God while it has a letter and a literal to it is also much more than that. If we do not have spiritual eyes to see or ears to hear we will interpret it all only literally and will utterly misunderstand. Take for example the new jerusalem as you mentioned. Now that is not something that we just sit down here and wait for to literally see descend. We as believers are NOW come to the new jerusalem. It is the heavenly jerusalem.heb 12:22 We are not just waiting to go to heaven we are NOW seated in heaven with Christ. What is it that will descend to earth as the new jerusalem? US!WE are the temple of God, WE are the holy city! WE are the ones adorned like a bride. and WE will come and dwell on the new heaven and new earth.

See it is by seeing what the new tesament says about things that we know what we are to see as spiritual and what we are to see as physical now in Christ.If we read especially the OT just in the letter and do not see what God intends for us to see now that the veil is removed in Christ then we will be decieved. This is the same reason why the jews in Jesus day thought he would be a literal political leader and king to deliver then from rome instead of a spiritual eternal king delivering them from the world and sin. We also have to remember that just because something is spiritually understood does not mean that spiritual things are not real- and literal and can be physical or manifested to be seen.

Here are a couple of examples, Paul quotes the law and says that the law says " you shall not muzzle the ox while it treads the grain"- now that seems clear and literal enough. But because paul saw the truth of the Lord in the Spirit He tells us that this literal physical understanding is not what God meant!He tells us that it was not ox that God was concerned with but that it was about Gods ministers!

Here is another example many read the word of God even the NT and see talk about the temple of God. And they say O the antichrist will sit in a temple in israel! But Paul and peter and Jesus all tell us in the NT that the temple of God is US! So if we only understand the word of God in the letter with the carnal mind then we will not understand. The word of God IS a riddle and it is one that only the Spirit of God understands and gives us to understand. That is why hebrews talks about the veil that is over the hearts of the jews when they read moses, but in Christ that veil is taken away. The carnal mind cannot understand.

 

[veteran]

Ezekiel shows the City there located in the "land of Israel". So it's about the literal area on earth where Jerusalem is, like the prophecy says at the start. Thus the "out of Zion" means Mount Zion in Jerusalem on earth, after Christ's return. That is the Holy City of Revelation 22 will be situated, as the River of the waters of life are shown there in Ezekiel 47.

What about the New Jerusalem mentioned in Revelation 21, just after Revelation 20? This city comes “down out of heaven from God†after the old heaven and earth has passed away (Revelation 21:1-2). How can you be so sure that the Jerusalem spoken of and longed for by the prophets was not this Jerusalem that comes after the resurrection and the judgment? I would be interested in doing a word study on Zion and Jerusalem to see when in the Bible it was used to refer to the literal city and when it was used to refer to the Church and the remnant of Israel. In Revelation 21:2, it describes the new Jerusalem as a bride, a term that is also often used for the Church in other parts of the New Testament.

It's the same one in Ezekiel 40-48, for those Scriptures in Ezekiel 40-48 have NEVER happenned yet to this day. Don't confuse all the political word-play that abuses the word Zion. The word Zion in God's Word has always pointed to the area of Jerusalem on earth where God said He will dwell forever. At Christ's coming, today's area of Jerusalem is going to go through an earth change, since Christ's feet touching down upon the Mount of Olives is to cause a great earthquake there (Zech.14), forming a valley running east to west. And the dimensions of the Holy City and all the oblation of the priests per Ezekiel covers an area like 60 square miles.

New Jerusalem as The Bride idea in Revelation is about God's love for the area of Jerusalem He expressed in Ezekiel 16. You might read that for starters to learn how much He loves that area. He gives harlotry and marriage metaphors there about it, and that's where that kind of idea was first written. He also uses marriage/divorce metaphors in relation between Him and His people, like the 'virgin' idea, spiritual harlotry, etc. (Ezek.23; Matt.25). So the Bride idea is applied to both per His Word.

The main problems I find with millennialism are:

• 1. Millennialism states that the saints and martyrs will be resurrected at the millennium to reign with Christ, but the Bible indicates that there is no separation in time between the resurrection of the wicked and the righteous. How could the saints reign physically while all the wicked are rotting outside of the gates of Jerusalem after Christ supposedly conquers them all as an earthly victor? See Matthew 16:27, John 5:28-29, 2 Corinthians 5:10, Revelation 20:11-15 for immediacy of resurrection of wicked and righteous.

• 
  
  The Bible declares the saints that overcome in Christ will rule ON THE EARTH as kings and priests. That's in Rev.5. You're right that ALL will be resurrected for Christ's "thousand years" reign, which includes the resurrection of the unjust. It's simply that the raised unjust will dwell outside the Holy City, an area Christ called the "outer darkness". It simply means a place of separation, similar to how our Lord showed a separation in Paradise between Lazarus and the rich man in Luke 16. In Ezek.44, it's written that the Zadok (Just) priests who serve Christ will be allowed to cross over for sake of a dead relative, and they must go through a seven day purification when returning. It's important to understand in that time, after the resurrection, the idea of "dead" then only means those who are still subject to the "second death". It's been a long misconception that being raised from the dead means automatic Salvation through Christ Jesus. That's not true. ALL will put on the "spiritual body", a body of 'incorruption' at Christ's second coming. But the soul condition of some will still be in a 'mortal' liable to perish state (1 Cor.15:53 note 2 required changes for death to be swallowed up in victory through Christ). Compare the state the "rich man" was in while in the torments of hell, since his flesh was buried, and yet he found himself in hell.
  
  

  2. A reign of saints in fleshly resurrected bodies (not yet perfected) to reign on an earth that is still corrupt is inconsistent with Scripture. While people in the Bible have been raised back from the dead in still corruptible bodies that died again later, Christ promises believers bodies like the one He had after His resurrection. For verses promising the incorruptible resurrection, look at 1 Corinthians 15:44-52, 1 Peter 1:4, 1 Peter 1:23.

  
  Take 1 Cor.15:53 into the Greek and translate those 4 different words. Paul also says we shall not all sleep, but we shall all be changed, and that as we have borne the image of the earthy, we shall also bear the image of the heavenly. How many peoples have borne the image of the earthy? All of them, including the wicked. It's important to realize Paul was not only talking about those in Christ with that being changed part. The wicked are going to be changed to incorruptible bodies too, as that's what our Lord Jesus also showed in John 5:29 about the "resurrection of damnation". The problem understanding this comes from dwelling too much on the type of flesh bodies we have today, the image of the earthy. The body of incorruption will be similar in fashion to our flesh bodies, but not really the flesh of today, because Paul also said there flesh and blood cannot inherit the kingdom of God, neither can corruption inherit incorruption. So the idea is of being 'changed', 'translated', not getting another new flesh body.
  
  

  3. Millennialism is connected with an expectation that Christ’s reign in the hearts of people on earth will need to decline to a dreadful extent until Satan is finally bound. This view tends to create a passive endurance of evil with every disaster and twisted philosophy regarded as just another indication that “the Antichrist is almost here†or that the tribulation is almost here. It strips Christ of His kingdom power until the earthly millennium. The reality, however, is that the “gates of hell will not prevail against [the Church]†(Matthew 16:18). Generally, wherever God is at work, evil becomes more apparent as well and the devil is trying to destroy the work. Christ, however, is the “author and finisher†of our faith and He is already Lord. He WILL maintain the Church to the very end and we are commanded to keep up the good fight, not to let things slide because it is somehow inevitable. Also read Daniel 2:34-35. The great mountain is the kingdom of Christ and the spread of the Gospel throughout the earth.

  
  Christ's Milennium reign is going to reveal to everyone Who He is. It will be a time of great teaching. It will be a time when ALL will bow to Him as King of kings and Lord of lords. It's going to show the wicked Who The God is. It will be the first opportunity many will have had to learn The Truth without Satan's influence to deception, because Satan and his workers will be locked in the pit during that thousand years. Many deceived believers on Christ are going to become apostates during the coming tribulation. So that Milennium time will be for them too, and I'm talking about many sincere believers who will be deceived by the coming false messiah, thinking he's Christ returned (2 Thess.2). God has even said in the OT prophets that He will disannul the covenant with death that many will make by mistake, and free those souls (Ezek.13; Isaiah 28-29). God will do that because He has caused the "spirit of deep sleep" upon many making it so they will be deceived.

 

[veteran]

I have to say that some of the things you said here can be rethought about. For instance you say that His words are not a riddle but truly they are. The word of God is not understood by the carnal mind because spiritual things are spiritually discerned. The word of God while it has a letter and a literal to it is also much more than that. If we do not have spiritual eyes to see or ears to hear we will interpret it all only literally and will utterly misunderstand. Take for example the new jerusalem as you mentioned. Now that is not something that we just sit down here and wait for to literally see descend. We as believers are NOW come to the new jerusalem. It is the heavenly jerusalem.heb 12:22 We are not just waiting to go to heaven we are NOW seated in heaven with Christ. What is it that will descend to earth as the new jerusalem? US!WE are the temple of God, WE are the holy city! WE are the ones adorned like a bride. and WE will come and dwell on the new heaven and new earth.

See it is by seeing what the new tesament says about things that we know what we are to see as spiritual and what we are to see as physical now in Christ.If we read especially the OT just in the letter and do not see what God intends for us to see now that the veil is removed in Christ then we will be decieved. This is the same reason why the jews in Jesus day thought he would be a literal political leader and king to deliver then from rome instead of a spiritual eternal king delivering them from the world and sin. We also have to remember that just because something is spiritually understood does not mean that spiritual things are not real- and literal and can be physical or manifested to be seen.

Here are a couple of examples, Paul quotes the law and says that the law says " you shall not muzzle the ox while it treads the grain"- now that seems clear and literal enough. But because paul saw the truth of the Lord in the Spirit He tells us that this literal physical understanding is not what God meant!He tells us that it was not ox that God was concerned with but that it was about Gods ministers!

Here is another example many read the word of God even the NT and see talk about the temple of God. And they say O the antichrist will sit in a temple in israel! But Paul and peter and Jesus all tell us in the NT that the temple of God is US! So if we only understand the word of God in the letter with the carnal mind then we will not understand. The word of God IS a riddle and it is one that only the Spirit of God understands and gives us to understand. That is why hebrews talks about the veil that is over the hearts of the jews when they read moses, but in Christ that veil is taken away. The carnal mind cannot understand.

I understand where you're coming from bro, but we also have to be careful not to take everything written in God's Word as meant only in the spiritul sense either, otherwise His Salvation could mean any spiritual idea anyone desires to come up with. God uses spiritual metaphor to point to future events and Truth. In all cases, the pointer is to something actual, whether earthy or heavenly. Yet both Heaven and earth are literal places He created.

That Heaven can exist on earth is an actual Truth. We were shown that by the River which came out of God's Garden of Eden in Genesis 2, branching off into four parts to feed four actual rivers on the earth. God's Garden of Eden is where His Paradise is. Genesis 2 shows It was once upon this earth, literally.

So can the New Jerusalem mean the heavenly City manifested upon the earth like God's Garden of Eden once did? You bet! It's even a parallel to that idea of Genesis, with God returning to this earth to dwell, just as His Eden was shown existing on earth back then. That kind of picture is exactly what God is showing us in the Ezekiel 40-48 chapters, especially in Ezek.47 about that River of the waters of life and the many trees (Tree of Life), because specific areas in the holy land on earth are mentioned along with it. God created this earth to be inhabited, and it will be, like He said (Isa.45:18).

Furthermore, the temple Apostle Paul described in 2 Thess.2 about the 'man of sin' coming to sit in it, is NOT the spiritual temple he taught in Ephesians which those in Christ are part of. The reason is because the True spiritual temple is founded upon Christ and His Apostles and the prophets. It cannot be corrupted, ever, for that would infer Christ Himself as The Foundation could become corrupt. Apostates that fall away from Christ can fall away from that spiritual temple, but will be cut off from it. It cannot be corrupted any more than God's Heavenly Jerusalem can be. So the temple Paul spoke of about the "man of sin" coming to sit in has to mean a literal physical temple on earth. And Paul is directly linking that event in 2 Thess.2 to what our Lord Jesus warned about 'a pseudo Christ' ("false Christs" of Matt.24:24; Mark 13:21) coming to stand in the holy place, placing the abomination of desolation (an idol for false worship). Our Lord Jesus warned that if anyone comes up to us in that time and says something like, Lo Christ has come, or He's in the secret chambers, to believe it not.

 

[D4Christ]

I have to say that some of the things you said here can be rethought about. For instance you say that His words are not a riddle but truly they are. The word of God is not understood by the carnal mind because spiritual things are spiritually discerned. The word of God while it has a letter and a literal to it is also much more than that. If we do not have spiritual eyes to see or ears to hear we will interpret it all only literally and will utterly misunderstand.

I totally reject the notion that God’s words are riddles. Are there scriptures that one only comes to understand thru study and prayer…yes. I have read some of the same passages for years and have only recently come into understanding after prayerfully seeking the Lord. But to suggest that the Lord tells us to read and obey His words and then makes them into riddles that are difficult to understand (or can be interpreted any which way) is out of order.

I will agree with you though, you have to have the Spirit of Christ in you, so that the Spirit of Truth will come to you and lead you into all Truths.

2 Peter 3

15 And remember, the Lord’s patience gives people time to be saved. This is what our beloved brother Paul also wrote to you with the wisdom God gave him—16 speaking of these things in all of his letters. Some of his comments are hard to understand, and those who are ignorant and unstable have twisted his letters to mean something quite different, just as they do with other parts of Scripture. And this will result in their destruction.

If scripture is useful to teach us, how then could God make it to be full of riddles so that few people could understand?

2 Timothy 2

16 All Scripture is inspired by God and is useful to teach us what is true and to make us realize what is wrong in our lives. It corrects us when we are wrong and teaches us to do what is right. 17 God uses it to prepare and equip his people to do every good work.

Take for example the new jerusalem as you mentioned. Now that is not something that we just sit down here and wait for to literally see descend. We as believers are NOW come to the new jerusalem. It is the heavenly jerusalem.heb 12:22 We are not just waiting to go to heaven we are NOW seated in heaven with Christ. What is it that will descend to earth as the new jerusalem? US!WE are the temple of God, WE are the holy city! WE are the ones adorned like a bride. and WE will come and dwell on the new heaven and new earth.

How do you respond to someone who makes up things that scripture doesn’t say….by countering it with the word of God.

2 Peter 3

3 Most importantly, I want to remind you that in the last days scoffers will come, mocking the truth and following their own desires. 4 They will say, “What happened to the promise that Jesus is coming again? From before the times of our ancestors, everything has remained the same since the world was first created.â€
5 They deliberately forget that God made the heavens by the word of his command, and he brought the earth out from the water and surrounded it with water. 6 Then he used the water to destroy the ancient world with a mighty flood. 7 And by the same word, the present heavens and earth have been stored up for fire. They are being kept for the day of judgment, when ungodly people will be destroyed.
10 But the day of the Lord will come as unexpectedly as a thief. Then the heavens will pass away with a terrible noise, and the very elements themselves will disappear in fire, and the earth and everything on it will be found to deserve judgment.[a]
11 Since everything around us is going to be destroyed like this, what holy and godly lives you should live, 12 looking forward to the day of God and hurrying it along. On that day, he will set the heavens on fire, and the elements will melt away in the flames. 13 But we are looking forward to the new heavens and new earth he has promised, world filled with God’s righteousness.

Right….according to you we are now seated in heaven and per this scripture your world is filled with God’s righteousness….someone should tell the terrorists.

Here are a couple of examples, Paul quotes the law and says that the law says " you shall not muzzle the ox while it treads the grain"- now that seems clear and literal enough. But because paul saw the truth of the Lord in the Spirit He tells us that this literal physical understanding is not what God meant!He tells us that it was not ox that God was concerned with but that it was about Gods ministers!

And you have proven my point. Scriptures more often than not tell us when to take things literally or if we need to search for deeper meanings. Since the prophets, who wrote the scriptures, have already done this, I’m not sure why you feel the need to tack on alternative meanings to scriptures where none are given or even suggested.

1 Corin 9

9 For the law of Moses says, “You must not muzzle an ox to keep it from eating as it treads out the grain.†Was God thinking only about oxen when he said this? 10 Wasn’t he actually speaking to us? Yes, it was written for us, so that the one who plows and the one who threshes the grain might both expect a share of the harvest.

Here is another example many read the word of God even the NT and see talk about the temple of God. And they say O the antichrist will sit in a temple in israel! But Paul and peter and Jesus all tell us in the NT that the temple of God is US! So if we only understand the word of God in the letter with the carnal mind then we will not understand. The word of God IS a riddle and it is one that only the Spirit of God understands and gives us to understand. That is why hebrews talks about the veil that is over the hearts of the jews when they read moses, but in Christ that veil is taken away.

First of all, study of the phrase, “sitteth in the Temple†would reveal that the word temple used in not concerning itself with the actual physical temple in terms of the outer courtyard, inner yard, etc. It is speaking specifically about the portion of the temple where the Holy of Holies was located. This original location still exists today and some Jews believe that it is located under the Dome of the Rock. Sitteth means not to literally sit but to confer power upon oneself (ie. He is seated in a position of power doesn’t mean the person is sitting down). So, sitteth in the temple means that the AC takes his power in the location of the Holy of the Holies…..not that he sits down in a physical temple

Secondly, you contradict yourself by limiting the word temple to just us. For if that was the case then Rev 22 would be a lie…. at least for you.

22 I saw no temple in the city, for the Lord God Almighty and the Lamb are its temple.

Since there is no temple in the New Jerusalem (aka heaven) and if we are the temple, then you couldn’t possible be in heaven now as you claim…because you are not needed. Of course, in your assessment you also ignore the fact that actual measurements were taken of the Holy City, in ways we don’t measure people.

The carnal mind cannot understand.

Exactly.

 

[GodspromisesRyes]

I totally reject the notion that God’s words are riddles. Are there scriptures that one only comes to understand thru study and prayer…yes. I have read some of the same passages for years and have only recently come into understanding after prayerfully seeking the Lord. But to suggest that the Lord tells us to read and obey His words and then makes them into riddles that are difficult to understand (or can be interpreted any which way) is out of order.

I will agree with you though, you have to have the Spirit of Christ in you, so that the Spirit of Truth will come to you and lead you into all Truths.

2 Peter 3

15 And remember, the Lord’s patience gives people time to be saved. This is what our beloved brother Paul also wrote to you with the wisdom God gave him—16 speaking of these things in all of his letters. Some of his comments are hard to understand, and those who are ignorant and unstable have twisted his letters to mean something quite different, just as they do with other parts of Scripture. And this will result in their destruction.

If scripture is useful to teach us, how then could God make it to be full of riddles so that few people could understand?

2 Timothy 2
[quote:3ues891r] 16 All Scripture is inspired by God and is useful to teach us what is true and to make us realize what is wrong in our lives. It corrects us when we are wrong and teaches us to do what is right. 17 God uses it to prepare and equip his people to do every good work.

It is useful to teach us and we are already told in scripture that the road is narrow and FEW there be that find it. We should not be surpised if the world and those who only want to play with God do not understand the word of God in truth, and it is for that reason that there is so many differnt " interpretations" of it. The bible interprets itself and by the Holy Ghost our eyes are opened to understand it. It was not Gods purpose to show everyone the truth, this is proved by Jesus speaking to crowds in parables. He said the reason was that it was not given to them to know the mysteries of the kingdom but to the disciples it was given to know it. This does not mean that nothing in scripture it literal, as i said, just because things are spiritual does not mean theyare not also literal actual.

How do you respond to someone who makes up things that scripture doesn’t say….by countering it with the word of God.

2 Peter 3

3 Most importantly, I want to remind you that in the last days scoffers will come, mocking the truth and following their own desires. 4 They will say, “What happened to the promise that Jesus is coming again? From before the times of our ancestors, everything has remained the same since the world was first created.â€
5 They deliberately forget that God made the heavens by the word of his command, and he brought the earth out from the water and surrounded it with water. 6 Then he used the water to destroy the ancient world with a mighty flood. 7 And by the same word, the present heavens and earth have been stored up for fire. They are being kept for the day of judgment, when ungodly people will be destroyed.
10 But the day of the Lord will come as unexpectedly as a thief. Then the heavens will pass away with a terrible noise, and the very elements themselves will disappear in fire, and the earth and everything on it will be found to deserve judgment.[a]
11 Since everything around us is going to be destroyed like this, what holy and godly lives you should live, 12 looking forward to the day of God and hurrying it along. On that day, he will set the heavens on fire, and the elements will melt away in the flames. 13 But we are looking forward to the new heavens and new earth he has promised, world filled with God’s righteousness.

Right….according to you we are now seated in heaven and per this scripture your world is filled with God’s righteousness….someone should tell the terrorists.

No Just becaue WE are seated in heavenly places with Christ does not mean that the world is not still just as ungodly and awaiting destruction as before. Being seated in heavenly places is a spiritual fact and truth to those in Christ Jesus. It does not mean that in the future we will not also ascend bodily(new body) into the clouds to meet Christ in the air, nor does it mean we dont go to heaven later it just means that we are there NOW also in the SPirit.We are NOW come to the heavenly jerusalem.
Eph 2:6 And hath raised [us] up together, and made [us] sit together in heavenly [places] in Christ Jesus: Hbr 12:22 But ye are come unto mount Sion, and unto the city of the living God, the heavenly Jerusalem, and to an innumerable company of angels,

[/quote:3ues891r]And you have proven my point. Scriptures more often than not tell us when to take things literally or if we need to search for deeper meanings. Since the prophets, who wrote the scriptures, have already done this, I’m not sure why you feel the need to tack on alternative meanings to scriptures where none are given or even suggested. [/quote]
I am not suggesting that we apply any meaning to scripture other than what it tells us to. The scriptures really interpret themselves. They tell us what things are spiritual examples and types of. They tell us what spiritual truth is we cannot just make it up.it is like this Jesus for example gave parables and then explained the meanings of them. He told what a " seed "is for example and throughout all the parables with seeds or other scriptures with seeds we can see what the understandig is by knowing how the bible itself defines it. Not by us making up something and saying o a seed is a donut. Only within scripture do we have the keys of understanding which are reveald to us by the Holy Ghost




[/quote]First of all, study of the phrase, “sitteth in the Temple†would reveal that the word temple used in not concerning itself with the actual physical temple in terms of the outer courtyard, inner yard, etc. It is speaking specifically about the portion of the temple where the Holy of Holies was located. This original location still exists today and some Jews believe that it is located under the Dome of the Rock. Sitteth means not to literally sit but to confer power upon oneself (ie. He is seated in a position of power doesn’t mean the person is sitting down). So, sitteth in the temple means that the AC takes his power in the location of the Holy of the Holies…..not that he sits down in a physical temple

Secondly, you contradict yourself by limiting the word temple to just us. For if that was the case then Rev 22 would be a lie…. at least for you.

22 I saw no temple in the city, for the Lord God Almighty and the Lamb are its temple.

Since there is no temple in the New Jerusalem (aka heaven) and if we are the temple, then you couldn’t possible be in heaven now as you claim…because you are not needed. Of course, in your assessment you also ignore the fact that actual measurements were taken of the Holy City, in ways we don’t measure people.

In 2 thess 2 the words for " temple of God" where this son of perdition sits is the exaact same as when paul says
1Cr 3:16 Know ye not that ye are the temple of God, and [that] the Spirit of God dwelleth in you?
1Cr 3:17 If any man defile the temple of God, him shall God destroy; for the temple of God is holy, which [temple] ye are.
1Cr 6:19 What? know ye not that your body is the temple of the Holy Ghost [which is] in you, which ye have of God, and ye are not your own?
2Cr 6:16 And what agreement hath the temple of God with idols? for ye are the temple of the living God; as God hath said, I will dwell in them, and walk in [them]; and I will be their God, and they shall be my people.
Rev 11:1 ¶ And there was given me a reed like unto a rod: and the angel stood, saying, Rise, and measure the temple of God, and the altar, and them that worship therein.

The new jerusalem at the end is the finished form in the new heavens and new earth which are not yet here but will descend in completed form then. And we are told WO the temple is in the new jerusalem in the verse you quoted
Rev 21:22 ¶ And I saw no temple therein: for the Lord God Almighty and the Lamb are the temple of it.

The Lord God almighty and the lamb ARE THE TEMPLE.There IS a temple in heaven now, there will not be a seperate temple in the new heavens and new earth God nd the lamb are the temple. And we do measure people, we see people measured in the Ot and the NT.There is a clue in the measurements actually but that is a whole other big topic we dont need to get into.

 

[D4Christ]

In 2 thess 2 the words for " temple of God" where this son of perdition sits is the exaact same as when paul says
1Cr 3:16 Know ye not that ye are the temple of God, and [that] the Spirit of God dwelleth in you?

Just for clarification. Yes. The world temple in 2 thess 2 and the world temple in 1 Cor 3 are both from Strong’s #3485.

1) used of the temple at Jerusalem, but only of the sacred edifice (or sanctuary) itself, consisting of the Holy place and the Holy of Holies (in classical Greek it is used of the sanctuary or cell of the temple, where the image of gold was placed which is distinguished from the whole enclosure)
2) any heathen temple or shrine
3) metaph. the spiritual temple consisting of the saints of all ages joined together by and in Christ

Just like words have more than one definition, so too does the word temple. Definition 1 applies to 2 Thess 2. Definition 3 applies to 1 Cor 3. 1 Corin 3 is calling the Church, believers in Christ, the temple…metaphorically. How’s that for not taking words literally…. :D

 

[Strangelove]

What a fascinating thread.

I've always thought that a literal Earthly 1000 year reign didnt make any sense.

I think I'm leaning towards amillenialism.

Seems most of the people who were discussing this arn't around anymore.

Thoughts anyone?

 

[Vic C.]

There are some things I agree with and some in which I disagree. What I find interesting is The RCC and the Reformers both believed/believe in amillennialism. But many a Reformer would say the Papacy is the antichrist.

Based on the Biblical definition of an antichrist and based on the fact that I don't know of any Pope who has denied that Christ came in the flesh, I don't see it unless a Pope comes along and denies Christ in the flesh.

 

[Strangelove]

There are some things I agree with and some in which I disagree. What I find interesting is The RCC and the Reformers both believed/believe in amillennialism. But many a Reformer would say the Papacy is the antichrist.

Based on the Biblical definition of an antichrist and based on the fact that I don't know of any Pope who has denied that Christ came in the flesh, I don't see it unless a Pope comes along and denies Christ in the flesh.

I'm not sure we can dismiss amillenialism just because one group who held that view might have been a little broad with their definition of antichrist. They also called the pope son of perdition and man of sin. I think the general gist was that the RCC was persecuting the saints and therefore opposed Christ.

I quite like the idea that satan is bound by the Gospels and by true Christians, and when those factors are taken out of the way at the tribulations, then satan will be loosed again to properly decieve the nations and turn the world back to how it was just before the flood. Obviously satan is still god of this world but he is being restrained. Held back from total domination.

This has brought a whole new dimention to my endtimes outlook.

Vic....can you see any major factors that dont allow this amil. thing to work?

I had a quick read through the thread and only see opposers to the theory coming up with highly obscure OT prophecy?

I noticed on a different thread you said you had a problem with a literal millenial reign. Me too bud. Big problem.

Doc.

 

[Sissy]

I think amil has some good points.
And I too have some problems with a literal 1000 years.

Bit I also struggle with some scripture that don't seem to fit amil.

For instance:
I feel there must be a difference between the heavenly throne Christ now sits upon and the the throne of David.

One reason is that Christ is God and has always had a right to the heavenly throne.
But the throne of David had some earthly stipulations that must be met.

For Christ to rule on the throne of David He had to be from the loins of David.
No such stipulation existed in order for Him to rule from the heavenly throne.

Acts 15
16 After this I will return, and will build again the tabernacle of David, which is fallen down; and I will build again the ruins thereof, and I will set it up:
​

Obviously, God’s heavenly kingdom never “fell†and was never in “ruinsâ€, and had to be build again.
So this is a kingdom in contrast to the heavenly kingdom.


BUT....

On the other hand, David's throne could very well be an earthly "type" of the heavenly throne.

Satan was kicked out of heaven, so I suppose there was some cleaning up of some "ruins" going on.

And the David/Solomon connection could be a "type" of another Father/Son who rule from the same throne.

 

[David505]

Seems like we go back and forth about this a lot.
As I've said before, premillennialism appears pretty straightforward:

Revelation 20

1 And I saw an angel come down from heaven, having the key of the bottomless pit and a great chain in his hand.
2 And he laid hold on the dragon, that old serpent, which is the Devil, and Satan, and bound him a thousand years,
3 And cast him into the bottomless pit, and shut him up, and set a seal upon him, that he should deceive the nations no more, till the thousand years should be fulfilled: and after that he must be loosed a little season.
4 And I saw thrones, and they sat upon them, and judgment was given unto them: and I saw the souls of them that were beheaded for the witness of Jesus, and for the word of God, and which had not worshipped the beast, neither his image, neither had received his mark upon their foreheads, or in their hands; and they lived and reigned with Christ a thousand years.
5 But the rest of the dead lived not again until the thousand years were finished. This is the first resurrection.
6 Blessed and holy is he that hath part in the first resurrection: on such the second death hath no power, but they shall be priests of God and of Christ, and shall reign with him a thousand years.
7 And when the thousand years are expired, Satan shall be loosed out of his prison,

I think John's repetition (six times) of the phrase "thousand years" emphasizes a literal interpretation?

In contrast, in the same passage, John refers to the Devil being "loosed a little season (Rev. 20: 3)" to indicate an indefinite period of time. If the Millennium is nonliteral (timewise), would not John have chosen a similarly indefinite term like "season" to describe the Millennium?

 

[Sinthesis]

Does anyone think Hitler intended his "thousand year reich" to last only a literal thousand years? Insane megalomaniacs don't think that way.

The millennium of Revelation is indicative of an eternal change from that which was before. Fortunately, if you are a Christian, you are living in the "Millennium".

 

[jasoncran]

Does anyone think Hitler intended his "thousand year reich" to last only a literal thousand years? Insane megalomaniacs don't think that way.

The millennium of Revelation is indicative of an eternal change from that which was before. Fortunately, if you are a Christian, you are living in the "Millennium".

really, and christ is ruling right now from jerusalem and we christians are judging the world?

and what of the verse that state in isiah of the lion, lamb and the kid.