How about amillennialism?

[savedbygrace57]

Amil is the right interpretation..

 

[Strangelove]

Oooh this is quite exciting. Seems there are a few closet amillenialists knockin' around.

It does make more sense doesn't it?

Still investigating.

 

[Adstar]

[FONT=&quot]The 1000 years is 1000 years all one has to do is look at the wonderful chronological chapter 20 of Revelation.

The catholic church wanted all the prophecies of the book of Revelation to be finished with because they wanted their act of harlotry with the king of the earth Constantine to be seen by the masses as the start of the 1000 figurative reign of Jesus on earth.

All the efforts at turning everything in the Book of Revelation and other books have their genesis in the desire to show the catholic church as the fulfilment of prophecy and to justify it's abominable teachings, corruption and mass murder down through the centuries.



All Praise The Ancient Of Days [/FONT]

 

[Strangelove]

[FONT=&quot]The 1000 years is 1000 years all one has to do is look at the wonderful chronological chapter 20 of Revelation.

[FONT=&quot]The catholic church wanted all the prophecies of the book of Revelation to be finished with because they wanted their act of harlotry with the king of the earth Constantine to be seen by the masses as the start of the 1000 figurative reign of Jesus on earth. [/FONT]

All the efforts at turning everything in the Book of Revelation and other books have their genesis in the desire to show the catholic church as the fulfilment of prophecy and to justify it's abominable teachings, corruption and mass murder down through the centuries.



All Praise The Ancient Of Days [/FONT]

Well, I dont think theres any danger of me getting sucked into RC teachings or justifying their many faults....

But I have a sneaky feeling you may have a point with the chronology thingee. Can you just explain how Rev 20 messes up the A-Mil theory.

Cheers Bud.

 

[Adstar]

Revelation 20
1And I saw an angel come down from heaven, having the key of the bottomless pit and a great chain in his hand. 2And he laid hold on the dragon, that old serpent, which is the Devil, and Satan, and bound him a thousand years,
3And cast him into the bottomless pit, and shut him up, and set a seal upon him, that he should deceive the nations no more, till the thousand years should be fulfilled: and after that he must be loosed a little season.
4And I saw thrones, and they sat upon them, and judgment was given unto them: and I saw the souls of them that were beheaded for the witness of Jesus, and for the word of God, and which had not worshipped the beast, neither his image, neither had received his mark upon their foreheads, or in their hands; and they lived and reigned with Christ a thousand years.
5But the rest of the dead lived not again until the thousand years were finished. This is the first resurrection.
6Blessed and holy is he that hath part in the first resurrection: on such the second death hath no power, but they shall be priests of God and of Christ, and shall reign with him a thousand years.



Ok if amillennialism is right all the above has already happened in the first 2 centuries after the resurection of Jesus or there abouts. We are now living in the figerative 1000 years and Jesus is ruling the nations of the world through the Pope, His supposed infallable representative on earth. all that is left to happen is below...





Revelation 20
7And when the thousand years are expired, Satan shall be loosed out of his prison,
8And shall go out to deceive the nations which are in the four quarters of the earth, Gog, and Magog, to gather them together to battle: the number of whom is as the sand of the sea.
9And they went up on the breadth of the earth, and compassed the camp of the saints about, and the beloved city: and fire came down from God out of heaven, and devoured them.
10And the devil that deceived them was cast into the lake of fire and brimstone, where the beast and the false prophet are, and shall be tormented day and night for ever and ever.
11And I saw a great white throne, and him that sat on it, from whose face the earth and the heaven fled away; and there was found no place for them.
12And I saw the dead, small and great, stand before God; and the books were opened: and another book was opened, which is the book of life: and the dead were judged out of those things which were written in the books, according to their works.
13And the sea gave up the dead which were in it; and death and hell delivered up the dead which were in them: and they were judged every man according to their works.
14And death and hell were cast into the lake of fire. This is the second death.
15And whosoever was not found written in the book of life was cast into the lake of fire.


So if amillennialism is true then all talk about the Son of perdition is wrong, see he has already been here and gone. No saints to be beheaded that all happened back in the first 2 centuries before the catholic "saints"??? took control of the world and braught an end to all that beheading and replaced it with christianly loving burning's at the stake


There is another word for amillennialism, it is called Preterisim. I know wiki is not the most authoritive source of information on things faith. But it gives a pretty good rundown of it.




I quote an excerpt from Wiki about Preterisim.

Proponents of Preterism sometimes argue that this position was the original eschatological understanding of the Early Christian church,[1][2] a claim contested by Historicists.[3] One Preterist has been said to hold that the view was developed in the 17th century,[4] a view also held by many non-Preterists.[5][6][7]
There has historically been general agreement that the first systematic Preterist exposition of prophecy was written by the Jesuit Luis De Alcasar during the Counter Reformation.[8][9] Moses Stuart noted that Alcasar's Preterist interpretation was of considerable benefit to the Roman Catholic Church during its arguments with Protestants,[10] and Preterism has been described in modern eschatological commentary as a Catholic defense against the Protestant Historicist view which identified the Roman Catholic Church as a persecuting apostasy.[11]
Due to resistance by Protestant Historicists, the Preterist view was slow to gain acceptance outside the Roman Catholic Church.[12] Among Protestants it was first accepted by Hugo Grotius,[13][14] a Dutch Protestant eager to establish common ground between Protestants and the Roman Catholic Church.[15] His first attempt to do this was entitled ‘Commentary on Certain Texts Which Deal with Antichrist’ (1640), in which he attempted to argue that the texts relating to Antichrist had their fulfillment in the 1st century AD.

Link to the page:

Preterism - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia



All Praise The Ancient Of Days

 

[Mike]

Okay, I'm going to through my in this discussion. I'm not going to get into great detail, because I'd spent a lot of time in a past thread about this already, and it changed no minds. Whether someone is an amillennialist or not, this disagreement has been raging for a very long time. Scholars steep in the Word have read Rev 20 on one side of the issue just as much as the ones on the other, and they read different things into it. When I see someone use this chapter to provide concrete evidence for their position, I just sigh.

I don't see Revelation as literal as many others do. I see a lot of symbolism, and the numbers are very symbolic as well, IMO. When it speaks of 1000 years, I see this as symbolic, just as I do the 144,000. I know in my heart that Jesus will return, and I take His Word for it when He says I won't know when. So, I stay my course and focus on Him. I don't believe this is a salvation issue that necessary needs to divide the Church. It's interesting to talk about, but I believe it harms the Body of Christ when arguments get heated.

 

[Vic C.]

There is another word for amillennialism, it is called Preterisim. I know wiki is not the most authoritive source of information on things faith. But it gives a pretty good rundown of it.

This is not true. They are two different interpretations of End Times. If Wiki is also saying they are the same, then the Wiki author is wrong too.

Amillennialism still sees some prophecy as future; Preterisim is ALL in the past. :yes

 

[Sinthesis]

This is not true. They are two different interpretations of End Times. If Wiki is also saying they are the same, then the Wiki author is wrong too.

Amillennialism still sees some prophecy as future; Preterisim is ALL in the past. :yes

Yet not all preterism is the same, nor even all in the past. See the Sticky:
http://www.christianforums.net/f20/contra-hymenæ-preterism-orthodox-preterism-13195/

 

[Codger]

Dispensationalism/Futurism is a doctrine invented in the 1800's by Darby et al. It is a sensational, exciting, and spectacular eschatology that takes most of the prophesy of Daniel, Ezekiel, Revelation, Zechariah, and so on - and places it all in yet our future. The main reasoning is that these books written in symbolic and apocalyptic language were not fulfilled literally and therefore must be for the future.The popularity of Dispensational/Futurist teaching was kicked off after the surprise formation of the present day Israel.

The Amillennial view takes into account the prophesies that are shown to be fulfilled in history. There really isn't much left to be fulfilled - only the second coming and its associated events. All of these prophestic prophesies were written to a target audience in time. They are all fulfilled - Daniel, Zechariah and so on. Revelation was written to the Christians who lived at the end of the first century as well as those who lived under the Roman Empire. If you want to know what the book means, you have to first ask what it meant to the people to whom the book was first written.

Since everything is now future to the Dispensationalists/futurists they spend all their time speculating on how these already fulfilled prophesies will be fulfilled in the future. All of their dated speculations have failed to date - all of them: I can name several. Their speculations are pure nonsense and you cannot tell them otherwise because they are really not looking for the truth. They are only interested in their exciting hobby of speculation.

Of all of the thousands of speculations that Dispensationalists/Futurists have made over the last 62 years since the formation of Israel - name one - just one - that has come to pass. There aren't any. And still sites like this churn them out daily. I have stated this on several occasions and have yet to receive a single answer because the number is zero. This is because the prophesy has already been fulfilled.

The mark of the beast is not a mystery in history, but when you put it into the future the scope becomes infinite. First it was the credit card, then the bar code, then a microchip, and now an electronic tattoo, what next? It's all useless speculation about scriptures that were fulfilled a long time ago.

We should be determining who the target audience of the OT writers was and try to determine what the prophesies meant to them.

Larry

 

[Vic C.]

Good post Larry. Hey, have you ever looked into Francisco Rebiera? He predates Darby by a couple of hundred years. :yes

 

[jasoncran]

what parts of zechariah are fulfilled, when did christ return to defend isreal?

and surely the world isnt getting better.

 

[Sinthesis]

The world is getting immeasurably better over time, but it is consumed in a spiritual war that can appear chaotic to Christ's soldiers on the ground. All of Zechariah and Isaiah are either already fulfilled or being fulfilled even now. When you accept to whom and when Revelation was revealed, it unfolds beautifully and also stands as mostly already fulfilled.

 

[jasoncran]

The world is getting immeasurably better over time, but it is consumed in a spiritual war that can appear chaotic to Christ's soldiers on the ground. All of Zechariah and Isaiah are either already fulfilled or being fulfilled even now. When you accept to whom and when Revelation was revealed, it unfolds beautifully and also stands as mostly already fulfilled.

really?, we spend more money on killling each other and trying to proove life on other planets then to cure our fellow man.

the near extension of the jews? a better way?
the a-bomb. yup advancement of helping men to meet God
the use of and devolopment of wmd's and mines to what? advance the gospel.

sorry sythesis. perhaps apollo the mega computer is the best way for men then.

 

[Sinthesis]

really?, we spend more money on killling each other and trying to proove life on other planets then to cure our fellow man.

the near extension of the jews? a better way?
the a-bomb. yup advancement of helping men to meet God
the use of and devolopment of wmd's and mines to what? advance the gospel.

sorry sythesis. perhaps apollo the mega computer is the best way for men then.

I would prefer colossus;), But the point is that yes, it's all working for the good omelet.

 

[jasoncran]

I would prefer colossus;), But the point is that yes, it's all working for the good omelet.

collossus is the russian computer. besides. the two once connected acted in sync to control the world, and that theme has been repeated in several movies namely:

the matrix series
the terminator series
tron
and also several tv shows

 

[Adstar]

what parts of zechariah are fulfilled, when did christ return to defend isreal?

Exactly. The position put forward that all the OT prophecies have been fulfilled and only a small part of the book of Revelation is yet to be fulfilled is preposterous.

The only way to do so is to go one a symbolic interpretation rampage through the scriptures to attempt to explain away passages that clearly are literal by using figurative explanations and try to add weight to their interpretations by calling them "spiritual interpretations"


All Praise The Ancient Of Days

 

[Codger]

Good post Larry. Hey, have you ever looked into Francisco Rebiera? He predates Darby by a couple of hundred years. :yes

Yes, but I haven't read any of his stuff. I understand his motive was to protect the pope who was being called the Antichrist at the time.

Chiliasm - the beginning error can be traced way back to Papius. Eusebius wrote of his error in his book about the history of the Church. He said he took things symbolic as literal - big error. What's new - it's done every day today.

 

[Codger]

what parts of zechariah are fulfilled, when did christ return to defend isreal?

and surely the world isnt getting better.

Please explain this passage. Literal or symbolic? Past or future?

Isaiah 63:1-6 (KJV)
Who is this that cometh from Edom, with dyed garments from Bozrah? this that is glorious in his apparel, travelling in the greatness of his strength? I that speak in righteousness, mighty to save. [2] Wherefore art thou red in thine apparel, and thy garments like him that treadeth in the winefat? [3] I have trodden the winepress alone; and of the people there was none with me: for I will tread them in mine anger, and trample them in my fury; and their blood shall be sprinkled upon my garments, and I will stain all my raiment. [4] For the day of vengeance is in mine heart, and the year of my redeemed is come. [5] And I looked, and there was none to help; and I wondered that there was none to uphold: therefore mine own arm brought salvation unto me; and my fury, it upheld me. [6] And I will tread down the people in mine anger, and make them drunk in my fury, and I will bring down their strength to the earth.

Isaiah 63:1-6 (NASB)
Who is this who comes from Edom,
With garments of glowing colors from Bozrah,
This One who is majestic in His apparel,
Marching in the greatness of His strength? "It is I who speak in righteousness, mighty to save."
[2] Why is Your apparel red,
And Your garments like the one who treads in the wine press?
[3] "I have trodden the wine trough alone,
And from the peoples there was no man with Me.
I also trod them in My anger,
And trampled them in My wrath;
And their lifeblood is sprinkled on My garments,
And I stained all My raiment.
[4] "For the day of vengeance was in My heart,
And My year of redemption has come.
[5] "And I looked, and there was no one to help,
And I was astonished and there was no one to uphold;
So My own arm brought salvation to Me;
And My wrath upheld Me.
[6] "And I trod down the peoples in My anger,
And made them drunk in My wrath,
And I poured out their lifeblood on the earth."

 

[jasoncran]

Please explain this passage. Literal or symbolic? Past or future?

Isaiah 63:1-6 (KJV)
Who is this that cometh from Edom, with dyed garments from Bozrah? this that is glorious in his apparel, travelling in the greatness of his strength? I that speak in righteousness, mighty to save. [2] Wherefore art thou red in thine apparel, and thy garments like him that treadeth in the winefat? [3] I have trodden the winepress alone; and of the people there was none with me: for I will tread them in mine anger, and trample them in my fury; and their blood shall be sprinkled upon my garments, and I will stain all my raiment. [4] For the day of vengeance is in mine heart, and the year of my redeemed is come. [5] And I looked, and there was none to help; and I wondered that there was none to uphold: therefore mine own arm brought salvation unto me; and my fury, it upheld me. [6] And I will tread down the people in mine anger, and make them drunk in my fury, and I will bring down their strength to the earth.

Isaiah 63:1-6 (NASB)
Who is this who comes from Edom,
With garments of glowing colors from Bozrah,
This One who is majestic in His apparel,
Marching in the greatness of His strength? "It is I who speak in righteousness, mighty to save."
[2] Why is Your apparel red,
And Your garments like the one who treads in the wine press?
[3] "I have trodden the wine trough alone,
And from the peoples there was no man with Me.
I also trod them in My anger,
And trampled them in My wrath;
And their lifeblood is sprinkled on My garments,
And I stained all My raiment.
[4] "For the day of vengeance was in My heart,
And My year of redemption has come.
[5] "And I looked, and there was no one to help,
And I was astonished and there was no one to uphold;
So My own arm brought salvation to Me;
And My wrath upheld Me.
[6] "And I trod down the peoples in My anger,
And made them drunk in My wrath,
And I poured out their lifeblood on the earth."

well then interesting and that is in reference to the destruction of edom if i recall, but let see here lets put you on the pot

when we die and are resurected where will be eventually?

in light of this verse?

mathew 5;5
the meek shall inherent the earth

and these:21:1

and also

this question? where is satan. is he bound by now? if so why is there such evil on this earth?

and explain the final destruction of satan and his followers after this milleniail time frame.

has this happened as well.

 

[David505]

Please explain this passage. Literal or symbolic? Past or future?

Isaiah 63:1-6 (KJV)
Who is this that cometh from Edom, with dyed garments from Bozrah? this that is glorious in his apparel, travelling in the greatness of his strength? I that speak in righteousness, mighty to save. [2] Wherefore art thou red in thine apparel, and thy garments like him that treadeth in the winefat? [3] I have trodden the winepress alone; and of the people there was none with me: for I will tread them in mine anger, and trample them in my fury; and their blood shall be sprinkled upon my garments, and I will stain all my raiment. [4] For the day of vengeance is in mine heart, and the year of my redeemed is come. [5] And I looked, and there was none to help; and I wondered that there was none to uphold: therefore mine own arm brought salvation unto me; and my fury, it upheld me. [6] And I will tread down the people in mine anger, and make them drunk in my fury, and I will bring down their strength to the earth.

Isaiah 63:1-6 (NASB)
Who is this who comes from Edom,
With garments of glowing colors from Bozrah,
This One who is majestic in His apparel,
Marching in the greatness of His strength? "It is I who speak in righteousness, mighty to save."
[2] Why is Your apparel red,
And Your garments like the one who treads in the wine press?
[3] "I have trodden the wine trough alone,
And from the peoples there was no man with Me.
I also trod them in My anger,
And trampled them in My wrath;
And their lifeblood is sprinkled on My garments,
And I stained all My raiment.
[4] "For the day of vengeance was in My heart,
And My year of redemption has come.
[5] "And I looked, and there was no one to help,
And I was astonished and there was no one to uphold;
So My own arm brought salvation to Me;
And My wrath upheld Me.
[6] "And I trod down the peoples in My anger,
And made them drunk in My wrath,
And I poured out their lifeblood on the earth."

Thanks Jasher,

Great question. Answer: literal / future.

Here's the short explanation. Isaiah 63:1-6 (KJV) corresponds to Revelation 19:11-21:

11 And I saw heaven opened, and behold a white horse; and he that sat upon him was called Faithful and True, and in righteousness he doth judge and make war.
12 His eyes were as a flame of fire, and on his head were many crowns; and he had a name written, that no man knew, but he himself.
13 And he was clothed with a vesture dipped in blood: and his name is called The Word of God.
14 And the armies which were in heaven followed him upon white horses, clothed in fine linen, white and clean.
15 And out of his mouth goeth a sharp sword, that with it he should smite the nations: and he shall rule them with a rod of iron: and he treadeth the winepress of the fierceness and wrath of Almighty God.
16 And he hath on his vesture and on his thigh a name written, KING OF KINGS, AND LORD OF LORDS.
17 And I saw an angel standing in the sun; and he cried with a loud voice, saying to all the fowls that fly in the midst of heaven, Come and gather yourselves together unto the supper of the great God;
18 That ye may eat the flesh of kings, and the flesh of captains, and the flesh of mighty men, and the flesh of horses, and of them that sit on them, and the flesh of all men, both free and bond, both small and great.
19 And I saw the beast, and the kings of the earth, and their armies, gathered together to make war against him that sat on the horse, and against his army.
20 And the beast was taken, and with him the false prophet that wrought miracles before him, with which he deceived them that had received the mark of the beast, and them that worshipped his image. These both were cast alive into a lake of fire burning with brimstone.
21 And the remnant were slain with the sword of him that sat upon the horse, which sword proceeded out of his mouth: and all the fowls were filled with their flesh.

Specifically, Isaiah 63:3 relates to Revelation 19:13.

Some years ago, Chuck Missler published a commentary about this based upon a study by Arnold Fruchtenbaum. Here's a link to the commentary:

Updated Briefing: The Next Holocaust and the Refuge in Edom: Part 2 - Chuck Missler - Koinonia House