How can the Bible be divinely inspired?

[Solo]

All scripture is given by inspiration of God, and is profitable for doctrine, for reproof, for correction, for instruction in righteousness

Indeed! All of Scripture is inspired! All not only!

All Scripture ONLY, not All Scripture and whoever else I want to include!!! Why add a false statement to the Word of God? :

 

[St. Ambrose]

not All Scripture and whoever else I want to include!!! Why add a false statement to the Word of God?

I agree wholeheartedly! So then why did you add the word 'only'? [/quote]

 

[Solo]

All Scripture ONLY, not All Scripture and whoever else I want to include!!! Why add a false statement to the Word of God?

I agree wholeheartedly! So then why did you add the word 'only'?

All Scripture means All Scripture and nothing else. ONLY is an adverb which means exclusive, without other.

The Scripture is the written word of God inspired of God written by Holy men ordained of God.

All things that contradict the Scripture, which is the Word of God, are false.

 

[William Putnam]

All Scripture means All Scripture and nothing else. ONLY is an adverb which means exclusive, without other.

That's fine, but considering ALL scripture, what books are included in the "ALL" and who determined it? :roll:

The Scripture is the written word of God inspired of God written by Holy men ordained of God.

And what "authority" determined which writings were authentic scripture and which were not? Some churches wated the Gospel of Thomas included. Others wanted the didache included as well. Still others wanted James, Romans, James and even the Book of Revelations excluded.

Who settled the matter? :

All things that contradict the Scripture, which is the Word of God, are false.

And what "authority" determined what was the Word of God (written) and which writings were not? :-D

God bless,

PAX

Bill+†+


Christus Vincit! Christus Regnat! Christus Imperat!

 

[Solo]

And what "authority" determined what was the Word of God (written) and which writings were not? :-D

God was the authority that decided what was the compiled written word of God and how He would preserve it throughout time.

Also read about the history of the canonization of the Bible from this dear ex-Roman Catholic nun.

http://www.anothersideofcatholicism.com ... r-06.shtml

 

[William Putnam]

God was the authority that decided what was the compiled written word of God and how He would preserve it throughout time.

OK...

Now tell my how God manifested His authority that determined the canon of scriptures. :-D

Also read about the history of the canonization of the Bible from this dear ex-Roman Catholic nun.

http://www.anothersideofcatholicism.com ... r-06.shtml

Here we go again... :smt109

http://www.speroforum.com/site/article.asp?id=1799

God bless,

PAX

Bill+†+



Blest be God.
Blest be his holy name.
Blest be Jesus Christ, true God and true man.
Blest be the name of Jesus.
Blest be his most sacred heart.
Blest be his most precious blood.
Blest be Jesus in the most holy sacrament of the altar.
Blest be the Holy Spirit, the Consoler.
Blest be the great Mother of God, Mary most holy.
Blest be her holy and immaculate conception.
Blest be her glorious assumption.
Blest be the name of Mary, virgin and mother.
Blest be Saint Joseph, her most chaste spouse.
Blest be God in his angels and in his saints.

- The Divine Praises -

 

[xicali]

That which is inspired is inspired, that which is historical is historical, and that which is revelation is revelation.

I, must learn to divide and learn from these three.

There is inspiration that can harm me, because some inspired information is not for me as a gentile.

That which is Inspired scripture that is good for me is what the apostle Paul quotes that is to say mostly Isaiah.

"All scripture is given by inspiration of God, and is profitable for doctrine, for reproof, for correction, for instruction in righteousness:" 2 Timothy 3:16

But is not profitable for growing in grace.

Revelation was given to Paul and that he handed down to us.
That information is good for me.

History is for knowing beyond the shadow of a doubt the reliability of what we were taught.

 

[Solo]

God was the authority that decided what was the compiled written word of God and how He would preserve it throughout time.

OK...

Now tell my how God manifested His authority that determined the canon of scriptures.

I answered it in an earlier post that you must have missed. I wrote:

• All Scripture means All Scripture and nothing else. ONLY is an adverb which means exclusive, without other.
  The Scripture is the written word of God inspired of God written by Holy men ordained of God.
  All things that contradict the Scripture, which is the Word of God, are false.

In other words for simplification, The Holy Spirit manifested God's authority to those who are born again, born of God just as Jesus manifested God's authority during His ministry on earth. When Jesus ascended to heaven he spoke that the comfortor would come and teach us all things.

25 These things have I spoken unto you, being yet present with you. 26 But the Comforter, which is the Holy Ghost, whom the Father will send in my name, he shall teach you all things, and bring all things to your remembrance, whatsoever I have said unto you. John 14:25-26

The Scripture is clear that the Holy Spirit is the teacher, and there is no need for man to rely on man to teach him anything, for the Holy Spirit is truth and does not lie.

But the anointing which ye have received of him abideth in you, and ye need not that any man teach you: but as the same anointing teacheth you of all things, and is truth, and is no lie, and even as it hath taught you, ye shall abide in him. 1 John 2:27

Below is what Jesus the the angel of the church in Pergamos to write concerning various unscriptural beliefs held by those of the church. Notice that HE who told the angel to write is HE that has the sharp two-edged sword (verse 12). The twoedged sword is the word of God (Hebrews 4:12).

In verse 17 is written, "He that hath an ear, let him hear what the Spirit saith unto the churches." The Spirit teaches those who are in the body of Christ. The church of Pergamos dwells where satan's seat is. Many have determined this to be figurative of Rome, and like Rome, Pergamos was a place of great persecution. It is said that the Martyr Antipas was the Bishop of Pergamos who was martyred for the cause of Christ.

The church at Pergamos held to the doctrine of Balaam which is the adoption of pagan ways. In Numbers 22-24 we read about how the Moabite King Balak tried to get Balaam to curse the people of Israel, to destroy their effectiveness in warfare. In Numbers 25 we read the Israelites sinned against God by not standing firm on the sure Word of God and His Holy Law but instead giving themselves over to unclean and idolatrous practices after being led into the adoption of pagan ways. Satan has used this ‘trick’ time and time again. The church at Pergamos had committed spiritual ‘fornication’ in allowing people to compromise the Word of Godâ€â€allowing pagan ideas to be adopted into the church. 2 Peter 2:15 and Jude 11 also refer to people who have rebelled against God and are compared to Balaam.

The church of Pergamos held to the doctrine of the Nicolaitans which is defined by the name itself. Here is what John F. Walwoord has said concerning the doctrine of the Nicolaitans:

• “Some have interpreted their name as meaning ‘conquering the people’ from nikaō, meaning ‘to conquer’ and laos, meaning ‘the people.’ This view considers the Nicolaitans as the forerunners of the clerical hierarchy superimposed upon the laity and robbing them of spiritual freedom.â€Ââ€â€John F. Walvoord

The Roman Catholic church definitely practices this doctrine having conquered the laity with the hiarchy of pope, cardinal, bishop, priest, laity. Jesus said that He HATES this doctrine.

12 And to the angel of the church in Pergamos write; These things saith he which hath the sharp sword with two edges; 13 I know thy works, and where thou dwellest, even where Satan's seat is: and thou holdest fast my name, and hast not denied my faith, even in those days wherein Antipas was my faithful martyr, who was slain among you, where Satan dwelleth. 14 But I have a few things against thee, because thou hast there them that hold the doctrine of Balaam, who taught Balac to cast a stumblingblock before the children of Israel, to eat things sacrificed unto idols, and to commit fornication. 15 So hast thou also them that hold the doctrine of the Nicolaitans, which thing I hate. 16 Repent; or else I will come unto thee quickly, and will fight against them with the sword of my mouth. 17 He that hath an ear, let him hear what the Spirit saith unto the churches; To him that overcometh will I give to eat of the hidden manna, and will give him a white stone, and in the stone a new name written, which no man knoweth saving he that receiveth it. Revelation 2:12-17

Also read about the history of the canonization of the Bible from this dear ex-Roman Catholic nun.

http://www.anothersideofcatholicism.com ... r-06.shtml

Here we go again...

If you don't understand the truth the first time, God will present it over and over until you submit to the Lordship of Jesus Christ or until you die, whichever comes first. :

 

[William Putnam]

If you don't understand the truth the first time, God will present it over and over until you submit to the Lordship of Jesus Christ or until you die, whichever comes first. :

Let's see now, you spoke of the quote from 2 Timothy 3:16-17, which is usually quoted to "prove" Sola Scriptura, which it does not at all prove (and which is another topic.)

But you zoom in on the All Scripture part of it that likewise, does not prove that scripture is inspired. The Islamic Q'ran also declares that it is divinely inspired. Does that make it so?

Now, I peresonally believe that All Scripture is divinely inspired, but I do not believe this because it says so as the only proof of the declaration, because the statement is a circular argument. A statement, on it's own merit, cannot declare something of itself (the writing of) that makes it so. I can write, "This statement is true" does not on it's own declaration, make it so. Of course, the statement may be true, but it takes some outside evidence to show that it is so.

The quote from Timothy is exactly that way. Because it says, "All Scripture is inspired..." does not constitute proof that it is so, unless by other evidence external of the source of the statement, it is so. Also, which scripture? Is James scripture? Is Romans scripture? Or how about the Book of Revelations, the Gospel of Thomas or the famous didache? As I said in an earlier reply, there were disputes over which writings should be included and which writings should not be included. Therefore, some authority had to be in place to determine the canon of scripture.

Here is a great piece of work that demonstrates how we can determine if the Bible is divinely inspired or not:

http://www.catholic.com/library/Proving_Inspiration.asp

Another good read is:

http://www.catholic.com/library/What_Your_Authority.asp

God bless,

PAX

Bill+†+


Christus Vincit! Christus Regnat! Christus Imperat!

 

[Solo]

Let's see now, you spoke of the quote from 2 Timothy 3:16-17, which is usually quoted to "prove" Sola Scriptura, which it does not at all prove (and which is another topic.)

But you zoom in on the All Scripture part of it that likewise, does not prove that scripture is inspired. The Islamic Q'ran also declares that it is divinely inspired. Does that make it so?

Dear Bill,
The Holy Spirit proves that all Scripture is inspired and the Holy Spirit determines which Scripture is Scripture. Your understanding of circular reasoning can only be determined by the natural man unable to see the spiritual things of God. It is not a big thing for those that have the Holy Spirit dwelling within them to see the truth; however there are those that think that the Holy Spirit dwells within them and does not. They think they understand the Scripture and they do not. It is a very simple thing to discern.

Your understanding of Scripture is only that which has been given you by the Roman Catholic institution, and is false. Your understanding of justification is unscriptural. Your understanding of being born again is unscriptural. Your understanding of eternal life is unscriptural. But, hey that is another bunch of topics.

God's Word is true and all men are liars.

 

[William Putnam]

Dear Bill,
The Holy Spirit proves that all Scripture is inspired and the Holy Spirit determines which Scripture is Scripture. Your understanding of circular reasoning can only be determined by the natural man unable to see the spiritual things of God. It is not a big thing for those that have the Holy Spirit dwelling within them to see the truth; however there are those that think that the Holy Spirit dwells within them and does not. They think they understand the Scripture and they do not. It is a very simple thing to discern.

Sola, "Natural man" must use reason to determine the truth of things, including declarations of inspiration. Now, I do not dispute that the Holy Spirit assists man in determining this, but you, personally, do not have the Holy Spirit, like a dove, sitting on your shoulders, whispering into your ear and telling you all this!

How about the Holy Spirit being active in the only "authority," Christ left behind to be the instrument of His gospel message, the Church, that determines the inspiration and thus the canon of scripture?

Did you read the links I provided you? :roll:

Your understanding of Scripture is only that which has been given you by the Roman Catholic institution, and is false.

What makes you think it is false, Solo? That same "dove" sitting on your shoulder? 8-)

Your understanding of justification is unscriptural. Your understanding of being born again is unscriptural. Your understanding of eternal life is unscriptural. But, hey that is another bunch of topics.

Please try to stay on the subject of the inspiration of scripture, Solo. We can discuss these other issues later. And indeed, it is a bunch of other topics, so why speak of these things now? :smt102

God's Word is true and all men are liars.

Therefore, Jesus was kidding when He established a Church in Matthew 16_18-19, with the awesome authority of the "keys of the kingdom" and the power to "bind and loose"? Are the apostles, the "charter clergy" of this Church, and they are successors all liars, Solo?

Check-out my "tagline" below and see if that contradicts what you said...

:-D

God bless,

PAX

Bill+†+



Pillar and Foundation of Truth, the Church. (1 Tim 3:15)

 

[Solo]

Dear Bill,
The Holy Spirit proves that all Scripture is inspired and the Holy Spirit determines which Scripture is Scripture. Your understanding of circular reasoning can only be determined by the natural man unable to see the spiritual things of God. It is not a big thing for those that have the Holy Spirit dwelling within them to see the truth; however there are those that think that the Holy Spirit dwells within them and does not. They think they understand the Scripture and they do not. It is a very simple thing to discern.

Sola, "Natural man" must use reason to determine the truth of things, including declarations of inspiration. Now, I do not dispute that the Holy Spirit assists man in determining this, but you, personally, do not have the Holy Spirit, like a dove, sitting on your shoulders, whispering into your ear and telling you all this!

William,
The "Natural man" is spiritually dead and is unable to reason in the spiritual things of God until the Holy Spirit wakes him up by begetting a New Creature within him. The "Natural man" can no reason or determine the truth of things including the inspiration because they are foolishness to him. He cannot know the truth of these things because they are spiritually discerned and he has no spiritual conduit to understand the things of God. If you have not been born again, you will not understand this unless the Holy Spirit gives you the understanding.

13 Which things also we speak, not in the words which man's wisdom teacheth, but which the Holy Ghost teacheth; comparing spiritual things with spiritual. 14 But the natural man receiveth not the things of the Spirit of God: for they are foolishness unto him: neither can he know them, because they are spiritually discerned. 15 But he that is spiritual judgeth F6 all things, yet he himself is judged of no man. 16 For who hath known the mind of the Lord, that he may instruct him? But we have the mind of Christ. 1 Corinthians 2:13-16

Also, I know these things because I have been born again, the Holy Spirit lives inside of me, and I have the mind of Christ. I do not need a dove sitting on my shoulder, and you have proven the above Scripture as you have considered what I shared with you from the word of God foolishness.

How about the Holy Spirit being active in the only "authority," Christ left behind to be the instrument of His gospel message, the Church, that determines the inspiration and thus the canon of scripture?

You and all Roman Catholics who share your philosophic renderings of the catechism religion believe that the Roman Catholic institution is the Church that has been given the authority to be the instrument of the gospel of Jesus Christ; and the Roman Catholic institution determines the canon of Scripture. You are proving with this statement that the Roman Catholic institution is a cult. All cults provide extra-curriculum reading as authoritative over the Scriptures. The Jehovah's Witness have the watchtower literature and New World Translation; the Seventh-day Adventists have Ellen G. White and the Great Controversy; the Mormons have Joseph Smith and the Book of Mormon, the Christian Science bunch have Mary Baker Eddy and her writings, and the Roman Catholic institution have the pope and the catechism.

The Scripture is clear; every believer is a member of the priesthood, and Jesus is the exclusive Head of the Church. The pope is not the Head of the Church, and Jesus Christ is not away. God himself dwells inside of every believer, and every believer is given gifts of the Spirit to operate in to share the gospel of Jesus Christ.

Did you read the links I provided you?

No, I did not. I know full well the canonization of Scripture along with high and low criticism of the Old and New Testaments.

Your understanding of Scripture is only that which has been given you by the Roman Catholic institution, and is false.

What makes you think it is false, Solo? That same "dove" sitting on your shoulder?

I have the mind of Christ because of the indwelling of the Holy Spirit, William.

Your understanding of justification is unscriptural. Your understanding of being born again is unscriptural. Your understanding of eternal life is unscriptural. But, hey that is another bunch of topics.

Please try to stay on the subject of the inspiration of scripture, Solo. We can discuss these other issues later. And indeed, it is a bunch of other topics, so why speak of these things now?

I am on topic. I am letting you know that your take on inspiration is not the only fallacy that you propagate. I mentioned that they were not for this topic.

God's Word is true and all men are liars.

Therefore, Jesus was kidding when He established a Church in Matthew 16_18-19, with the awesome authority of the "keys of the kingdom" and the power to "bind and loose"? Are the apostles, the "charter clergy" of this Church, and they are successors all liars, Solo?

Jesus never lied. When the apostles were walking in the spirit, they never lied. When the Holy Spirit birthed New Creatures after sinful men believed the Word of God, they passed onto them the priesthood of the believer, and inside each believer is the Holy Spirit teaching them all things.

Your misunderstanding and the false teaching of the Roman Catholic institution keep millions of people under their thumb with this Scripture found in Matthew 16. I doubt that you know that the keys of the Kingdom of God is the Gospel of Jesus Christ, not the Conquering Control of the Roman Catholic institution. The binding and loosing is phraseology used many, many times throughout the Scripture to describe that which is lawful and unlawful; and in this case is used only of doctrines, or declarations of what is lawful and unlawful, free, or prohibited to be received, or practised.

Any person, group of persons, organization, institution whether called a church or not, that brings another gospel whether by apostle or by angel, if it contradicts the Scripture it is a lie and deception. Beware that anyone that preaches a gospel that is not the Gospel of Jesus Christ is accursed.

6 I marvel that ye are so soon removed from him that called you into the grace of Christ unto another gospel: 7 Which is not another; but there be some that trouble you, and would pervert the gospel of Christ. 8 But though we, or an angel from heaven, preach any other gospel unto you than that which we have preached unto you, let him be accursed. 9 As we said before, so say I now again, If any man preach any other gospel unto you than that ye have received, let him be accursed. Galatians 1:6-9

Check-out my "tagline" below and see if that contradicts what you said...

Pillar and Foundation of Truth, the Church. (1 Tim 3:15)

The Church where Jesus Christ is the Head is the Pillar and Foundation of Truth, but the many, many groups who teach another gospel are not the true Church of Jesus Christ.

I love all who are Roman Catholics but I hate the doctrine of the Roman Catholic institution, just as Jesus Christ hates it.

 

[William Putnam]

Solo wrote:
[quote:70cc8]William Putnam wrote:
[quote:70cc8]Solo wrote:

Dear Bill,
The Holy Spirit proves that all Scripture is inspired and the Holy Spirit determines which Scripture is Scripture. Your understanding of circular reasoning can only be determined by the natural man unable to see the spiritual things of God. It is not a big thing for those that have the Holy Spirit dwelling within them to see the truth; however there are those that think that the Holy Spirit dwells within them and does not. They think they understand the Scripture and they do not. It is a very simple thing to discern.

Sola, "Natural man" must use reason to determine the truth of things, including declarations of inspiration. Now, I do not dispute that the Holy Spirit assists man in determining this, but you, personally, do not have the Holy Spirit, like a dove, sitting on your shoulders, whispering into your ear and telling you all this! [/quote:70cc8]

William,
The "Natural man" is spiritually dead and is unable to reason in the spiritual things of God until the Holy Spirit wakes him up by begetting a New Creature within him. The "Natural man" can no reason or determine the truth of things including the inspiration because they are foolishness to him. He cannot know the truth of these things because they are spiritually discerned and he has no spiritual conduit to understand the things of God. If you have not been born again, you will not understand this unless the Holy Spirit gives you the understanding.[/quote:70cc8]
But “natural man†can respond to the gospel message of Christ and be a part of His Church, and become a “spiritual man†in the salvation message of Christ! And through His Church, where authority was given, even while it is make up of “natural†man yet now a “spiritual man†even while imperfectly.

But you still seem to insist that you have the exclusive “Dove of the Holy Spirit†residing on your shoulders that guides you to all truth.

Interesting…

13 Which things also we speak, not in the words which man's wisdom teacheth, but which the Holy Ghost teacheth; comparing spiritual things with spiritual. 14 But the natural man receiveth not the things of the Spirit of God: for they are foolishness unto him: neither can he know them, because they are spiritually discerned. 15 But he that is spiritual judgeth F6 all things, yet he himself is judged of no man. 16 For who hath known the mind of the Lord, that he may instruct him? But we have the mind of Christ. 1 Corinthians 2:13-16

Also, I know these things because I have been born again, the Holy Spirit lives inside of me, and I have the mind of Christ. I do not need a dove sitting on my shoulder, and you have proven the above Scripture as you have considered what I shared with you from the word of God foolishness.

First of all, I have been “born again†as well, and yes, I believe that the Holy Spirit has come into me and influenced me as well. But I do not assume that I know all truth. And as for interpreting scriptures, which I do believe is divinely inspired and where I gave you two good links to indicate the thrust of how I come to that conclusion, I must go to the very authority that Christ left here on earth for all of us to go to - His Church.

Secondly, Paul is speaking of man who is depending upon his own instincts and intellect alone. I think we would both agree that it takes the Spirit to guide such a man to the truth and thus be saved. But saying that, I again cannot say that I know all truth, especially as revealed in His written Word. I go to the very authority that existed before ink touched papyrus in the writing of the gospel message given orally to the apostles - The Church.

[quote:70cc8]William Putnam wrote:
How about the Holy Spirit being active in the only "authority," Christ left behind to be the instrument of His gospel message, the Church, that determines the inspiration and thus the canon of scripture?

You and all Roman Catholics who share your philosophic renderings of the catechism religion believe that the Roman Catholic institution is the Church that has been given the authority to be the instrument of the gospel of Jesus Christ; and the Roman Catholic institution determines the canon of Scripture. You are proving with this statement that the Roman Catholic institution is a cult. All cults provide extra-curriculum reading as authoritative over the Scriptures. The Jehovah's Witness have the watchtower literature and New World Translation; the Seventh-day Adventists have Ellen G. White and the Great Controversy; the Mormons have Joseph Smith and the Book of Mormon, the Christian Science bunch have Mary Baker Eddy and her writings, and the Roman Catholic institution have the pope and the catechism.[/quote:70cc8]
If the Catholic Church is a “cult,†then it is the oldest one in Christendom!
And it is interesting that you mention the names of other founders of cults, who are all “John-come-latlies†that continue a long line of break-away religious movements in heresy from the oldest Christian Church!

The Scripture is clear; every believer is a member of the priesthood, and Jesus is the exclusive Head of the Church. The pope is not the Head of the Church, and Jesus Christ is not away. God himself dwells inside of every believer, and every believer is given gifts of the Spirit to operate in to share the gospel of Jesus Christ.

Of course every believer in Christ is a member of the “Priesthood of believers†which is separate and distinct from the Sacradotal priesthood Christ established at the Last Supper! But that is another topic, still wondering if we can get back to the topic of determining how we can know that the bible is divinely inspired. Remember, the devout Muslem believes the same thing about the Q;ran!

[quote:70cc8]William Putnam wrote:

Did you read the links I provided you?

No, I did not. I know full well the canonization of Scripture along with high and low criticism of the Old and New Testaments.[/quote:70cc8]
Then I am spinning my wheels and wasting my time, I see…

Sola, I love you like a brother, a Christian brother, but we will disagree on what we have been discussing to our dying day, I suppose. So I will end it here, hoping that the lurkers will read what we have posted and have them come to their own conclusion.

Have a nice day and…Come, Holy Spirit…

God bless,

PAX

Bill+†+



Veni Creator Spiritus

(Come, Holy Spirit…)

Veni Creator Spiritus,
Mentes tuorum visita,
Imple superna gratia
Quae ti creasti pecatora.

Qui diceris Paraclitus,
Altissimi donum Dei,
Fons vivus, ignis, caritas,
Et spiritalis unctio.

Tu septiformis munere,
Digitus Patenae dexterae,
Tu rite promissum Patris,
Sermone ditans guttura.

Accende lumen sensibus,
infunde amorem cordilbus,
Inferma nostri corpis
Virtute firmans perpeti.

Hostem repellas longuis,
Pacemque dones protinus,
Ductore sic to praevio,

Per te sciamus da Patrem,

Noscamus atque Filium,

Teque utriusque Spiritum
Credamus omni tempore.

Deo Patri sit gloria,
Et Filio, quia mortuis

Surrexit, ac Paracito,
in saecculoriium saecula, Amen.

Gregorian chant - God's Music!

http://bellsouthpwp2.net/p/u/putnam_w/m ... reator.mp3



.

 

[Solo]

William,
The "Natural man" is spiritually dead and is unable to reason in the spiritual things of God until the Holy Spirit wakes him up by begetting a New Creature within him. The "Natural man" can no reason or determine the truth of things including the inspiration because they are foolishness to him. He cannot know the truth of these things because they are spiritually discerned and he has no spiritual conduit to understand the things of God. If you have not been born again, you will not understand this unless the Holy Spirit gives you the understanding.

But “natural man†can respond to the gospel message of Christ and be a part of His Church, and become a “spiritual man†in the salvation message of Christ! And through His Church, where authority was given, even while it is make up of “natural†man yet now a “spiritual man†even while imperfectly.

But you still seem to insist that you have the exclusive “Dove of the Holy Spirit†residing on your shoulders that guides you to all truth.

Interesting…

The "natural man" is dead to God and cannot respond to the spiritual things of God until the Holy Spirit awakens the "natural man" to repent and believe on the name of Jesus, and this can all take place apart from the Roman Catholic institution. When the Holy Spirit awakens one and one repents and believes on the name of Jesus, the Holy Spirit comes to dwell inside of the believer who has been born again, born of God. The born again, born of God portion of a believer is a NEW CREATURE having never existed before being born again. The OLD MAN, the flesh, the corrupt, mortal "natural man" has now been subjected to a higher authority, the Holy Spirit. I insist that I have the exclusive Holy Spirit dwelling in me because I have been born of God, and the Holy Spirit guides me to all truth.

13 Which things also we speak, not in the words which man's wisdom teacheth, but which the Holy Ghost teacheth; comparing spiritual things with spiritual. 14 But the natural man receiveth not the things of the Spirit of God: for they are foolishness unto him: neither can he know them, because they are spiritually discerned. 15 But he that is spiritual judgeth all things, yet he himself is judged of no man. 16 For who hath known the mind of the Lord, that he may instruct him? But we have the mind of Christ. 1 Corinthians 2:13-16

Also, I know these things because I have been born again, the Holy Spirit lives inside of me, and I have the mind of Christ. I do not need a dove sitting on my shoulder, and you have proven the above Scripture as you have considered what I shared with you from the word of God foolishness.

First of all, I have been “born again†as well, and yes, I believe that the Holy Spirit has come into me and influenced me as well. But I do not assume that I know all truth. And as for interpreting scriptures, which I do believe is divinely inspired and where I gave you two good links to indicate the thrust of how I come to that conclusion, I must go to the very authority that Christ left here on earth for all of us to go to - His Church.

If you have been born again, born of God, and the Holy Spirit were dwelling within you, then He would direct you to the fact that the Roman Catholic institution may have individuals who are saved and belong to HIS CALLED OUT ONES (the church), but the Roman Catholic institution is NOT HIS CHURCH LEFT HERE ON EARTH. That my friend is a false teaching of the mob control artists within the cult that has misinterpreted the Scriptures and led millions of people to hell for hundreds of years.

Secondly, Paul is speaking of man who is depending upon his own instincts and intellect alone. I think we would both agree that it takes the Spirit to guide such a man to the truth and thus be saved. But saying that, I again cannot say that I know all truth, especially as revealed in His written Word. I go to the very authority that existed before ink touched papyrus in the writing of the gospel message given orally to the apostles - The Church.

You again err, as the Scriptures existed before the Roman Catholic Church. The Scriptures that Jesus and the Apostles taught believers from day in and day out. The entire Bible was written prior to the end of the 1st century which is before the Roman Catholic "church" existed. The church is the body of Christ which consists of ALL those who have been born again, born of God; not baptised into the Roman Catholic institution as infants, but baptised into the body of Christ by the Holy Spirit.

[quote="William Putnam":0303e]
How about the Holy Spirit being active in the only "authority," Christ left behind to be the instrument of His gospel message, the Church, that determines the inspiration and thus the canon of scripture?

You and all Roman Catholics who share your philosophic renderings of the catechism religion believe that the Roman Catholic institution is the Church that has been given the authority to be the instrument of the gospel of Jesus Christ; and the Roman Catholic institution determines the canon of Scripture. You are proving with this statement that the Roman Catholic institution is a cult. All cults provide extra-curriculum reading as authoritative over the Scriptures. The Jehovah's Witness have the watchtower literature and New World Translation; the Seventh-day Adventists have Ellen G. White and the Great Controversy; the Mormons have Joseph Smith and the Book of Mormon, the Christian Science bunch have Mary Baker Eddy and her writings, and the Roman Catholic institution have the pope and the catechism.

If the Catholic Church is a “cult,†then it is the oldest one in Christendom!
And it is interesting that you mention the names of other founders of cults, who are all “John-come-latlies†that continue a long line of break-away religious movements in heresy from the oldest Christian Church!
[/quote:0303e]
The Roman Catholic "church" is the oldest cult in Christendom; and it survives by its political persuasions over the years, not to mention the inroads that satan has made into it from the beginning with the various pagan beliefs and systems incorporated in order to conquer various indiginous groups across the globe. One think you must remember, the LOVE of money is the root of all evil.

The Scripture is clear; every believer is a member of the priesthood, and Jesus is the exclusive Head of the Church. The pope is not the Head of the Church, and Jesus Christ is not away. God himself dwells inside of every believer, and every believer is given gifts of the Spirit to operate in to share the gospel of Jesus Christ.

Of course every believer in Christ is a member of the “Priesthood of believers†which is separate and distinct from the Sacradotal priesthood Christ established at the Last Supper! But that is another topic, still wondering if we can get back to the topic of determining how we can know that the bible is divinely inspired. Remember, the devout Muslem believes the same thing about the Q;ran!

The Greek word Hiereus is translated Priest in the King James Version 30 times. Three times believers are called Priests, and the other 27 times the word refers to those of the Jewish Priesthood. No where is this word used for church hierchy. This word is found in the four gospels, the book of Acts, the book of Hebrews, and three times in the book of Revelation where it refers to believers as Priests.
The Greek word Archiereus is translated Priest 120 times in the King James Version, and is used exclusively for the Jewish Priesthood as High Priest or Chief Priest. The only place that it refers to anyone in the church is when it refers to Jesus as being the High Priest in the book of Hebrews. This word is found in the four gospels, the book of Acts, and the book of Hebrews.
No Sacradotal priesthood was setup at the "Last Supper". This was an invention of the Roman Catholic false teaching mill.

[quote="William Putnam":0303e]
Did you read the links I provided you?

No, I did not. I know full well the canonization of Scripture along with high and low criticism of the Old and New Testaments.

Then I am spinning my wheels and wasting my time, I see…
[/quote:0303e]
I haven't wasted my time as I have given you a clear picture of who is the inspiration of Scripture, who is the authority over the believers in the body of Christ (the called out one, the church), and what the Roman Catholic Institution really is.

Sola, I love you like a brother, a Christian brother, but we will disagree on what we have been discussing to our dying day, I suppose. So I will end it here, hoping that the lurkers will read what we have posted and have them come to their own conclusion.

Have a nice day and…Come, Holy Spirit…

God bless,

PAX

Bill+†+

Amen, and I pray for God to bless you with His wisdom and understanding.

 

[JohnR]

Re: Biblical inspiration...

How do you know that the Bible is inspired, from Genesis to the Book of Revelation? Who told you? Why do you believe this?

2 Tim. 3:16
All scripture is given by inspiration of God, and is profitable for doctrine, for reproof, for correction, for instruction in righteousness:

Inspiration means to be God breathed. We know because God watchs over His word to perform it. We have a covenant with God. That means if we do our part, we can be sure that God will do His part.

The Bible then is filled with the promises of God. The promises of God are conditional, there is always a condition, there is always something we have to do. Like have faith, believe, trust in God and so on. If we do our part, then you can be sure that God will do His part. He watchs over His word to perform it. So we can have 100% confidence in God.

It took me a long time to learn that God is faithful and true. I had to learn to have faith and trust in Him. I would trust Him with a small area in my life, then as I learned He was faithful, then I would trust Him with more and more. So I learned I can trust Him with everything.

We can give God thanks in all things, because we know that He will work all accoring to His plan and purpose.

Romans 8:28
And we know that God causes all things to work together for good to those who love God, to those who are called according to His purpose.

1 Thes. 5:16-18
Rejoice always, [17] pray without ceasing, [18] in everything give thanks; for this is the will of God in Christ Jesus for you.

 

[xicali]

"The Holy Spirit proves that all Scripture is inspired and the Holy Spirit determines which Scripture is Scripture."

Hi Solo,

When you say "all Scripture is inspired" what do you refer to?

 

[francisdesales]

Re: Biblical inspiration...

2 Tim. 3:16
All scripture is given by inspiration of God, and is profitable for doctrine, for reproof, for correction, for instruction in righteousness:

How did the early Christian Church KNOW that what Paul and Peter and John and the rest wrote was Scriptures, while what "Thomas" wrote was not? Very few of the NT books claim to be self-attesting works of God - except Revelation.

Regards

 

[Solo]

Hi Solo,

When you say "all Scripture is inspired" what do you refer to?

2 Timothy 3:16 speaks of All Scripture is inspired. The All Scripture denotes the Scripture that was in existence at the time that this letter was written. Jesus quoted from the Hebrew Tanakh which which was divided into three collections, the Law, the Prophets, and the Writings. These three collections of the Tanakh contained the 39 books of our current Old Testament. Jesus actually quoted from 24 of the 39 books in the three collections. Jesus speaks about the collections of the Law and the Prophets in Matthew 5:17:

• "Do not think that I came to abolish the Law or the Prophets; I did not come to abolish but to fulfill.

Jesus and the New Testament authors quote from 34 of the 39 books of the Old Testament. The five books that are not quoted are contained in the three collections of the Tanakh; and those books are Ezra, Nehemiah, Esther, Ecclesiastes, Song of Solomon. Even though these five books were not quoted from in the New Testament, they are still inspired as they existed within the Scriptures quoted and were never set apart as not being inspired.

The New Testament never quotes from the any of the apocryphal books written between 400 - 200 BC. What is significant here is that NONE of the books within the "apocryphal collection" are ever quoted.

The New Testament is accepted as Scripture as it is written by the apostles and disciples of the apostles.

Peter put the writings of Paul on the same level as the existing Scripture in the following verses:

• 15 And account that the longsuffering of our Lord is salvation; even as our beloved brother Paul also according to the wisdom given unto him hath written unto you; 16 As also in all his epistles, speaking in them of these things; in which are some things hard to be understood, which they that are unlearned and unstable wrest, as they do also the other scriptures, unto their own destruction. 2 Peter 3:15-16

Tertullian distinguished the four Gospels of the New Testament as being of apostolic and apostolic discipleship origin, and he mentions a collection that he deemed "canonized" with the specific books of Mathew, Mark, Luke, and John, the thirteen epistles of Paul, Acts, 1 John, 1 Peter, Jude, and Revelation.

All 27 books of the New Testament were in circulation by the year 100AD the majority of which were in circulation in 70AD.

 

[Solo]

Re: Biblical inspiration...

How did the early Christian Church KNOW that what Paul and Peter and John and the rest wrote was Scriptures, while what "Thomas" wrote was not? Very few of the NT books claim to be self-attesting works of God - except Revelation.

Regards

Peter said that Paul's writings were Scripture in 2 Peter 3:15-16. The gospel of Thomas was written between 140AD and 170AD. The gospel of Thomas comes up way short when compared with the four gospels of the New Testament. The synoptic gospels of the New Testament were written between 60AD and 80AD. The gospel of Thomas cannot stand alone and depends on the synoptic gospels; however the synoptic gospels stand on their own alone. The gospel of Thomas portrays second century gnosticism, and was not around when the other books of the New Testament were in circulation in the 1st century.

 

[William Putnam]

Re: Biblical inspiration...

Peter said that Paul's writings were Scripture in 2 Peter 3:15-16. The gospel of Thomas was written between 140AD and 170AD. The gospel of Thomas comes up way short when compared with the four gospels of the New Testament. The synoptic gospels of the New Testament were written between 60AD and 80AD. The gospel of Thomas cannot stand alone and depends on the synoptic gospels; however the synoptic gospels stand on their own alone. The gospel of Thomas portrays second century gnosticism, and was not around when the other books of the New Testament were in circulation in the 1st century.

I thought I was through with this thread but I had to reply here...

All, of what Paul wrote at the time? But that is an easy one, even without the statement by Peter, since Paul was quite prominant among the apostles, of course, as well as the four gospels.

And how is it you know, from your position and knowledge today, about the defects of the Gospel of Thomas? It is easy for you and I to sit back, look at the record of what has gone by, and realize the correctness of that illusive authority you seem to avoid seeing that determined the canon of Scripture, just like I can see the wisdom and forthought in the allied landings at Normandy!

Remember, others wanted the Gospel of Thomas as well as the didache (which some scholars think dates to A.D. 70) included as scripture. I also understand that some wanted to include the Gospel to the Corinthians written by Clement, the 3rd successor to Peter as Bishop of Rome! The writings of James, even Paul's Romans (if it were Paul, there is some dispute there) and the Book of Revelations were in dispute, I understand.

Why were the synods of Carthage, Hippo and Rome convened in the late 4th century to put the matter to rest? If the "normal consensus" (what ever that is) was the determiner of the canon, why these early synods?

Some where along the line, there was a common earthly authority who determined the canon of Schirpture, and in the time period between Pentecost and about A.D. 1,000, there was only one authority on earth who could do that - The Church.

And in the time period I give, it is so easy to discover which Church it was!

Solo, here is how we did not get the bible:

God Himself wrote the bible,
on beaten sheets of gold,
bound in the finest Corinthian leathers,
borne on the gossamer wings of cherubim,
and had it go plop,
into the arms of some tent revival preacher!

:lilangel:


God bless,

PAX

Bill+†+



Et ego dico tibi quia tu es Petrus et super hanc petram
aedificabo ecclesiam meam et portae inferi non praevalebunt
adversum eam et tibi dabo claves regni caelorum et quodcumque
ligaveris super terram erit ligatum in caelis et quodcumque
solveris super terram erit solutum in caelis.
(Matt 16:18-19 From the Latin Vulgate)