How can there be a soul?

[kal8]

Supposedly when we die our soul (essentially ourself without the physical body) goes to heaven. But you see, we all mistakenly identify ourselves with things that don't really exist...Our personalitys, our ego and our consciousness/self-awareness...Our personalities are a result of our experience, and our ego is a result of attachment to the physical world. Our consciousness is a result of our nervous system .So when we die, we leave the body, the ego, personality, and most importantly our consciousness behind. So what is left?

 

[sparrow]

How can there NOT be a soul.?

 

[kal8]

Explain please.

 

[cyberjosh]

So what's your theory on the hereafter kal? Metaphysical transformation?

 

[Drew]

I believe that the widely held view that we consist of a physical body and an "non-physical" soul and / or spirit that "inhabits" this body is not in fact Biblical. I think that the Scriptures teach that man is essentially of "one substance", although he indeed has "the breath of God" in him that animates him in some way. So I will echo kal8' statement:

But you see, we all mistakenly identify ourselves with things that don't really exist...Our personalitys, our ego and our consciousness/self-awareness...

and ask the reader to consider the possibility that the words "spirit" and "soul" (and "soul" especially) are sometimes (repeat sometimes) used descriptively (to be catch-all terms for certain things about humans) just like terms such as "personality" and "mind", rather than to suggest some kind of "ghost in the machine" that can survive and think without the body.

I suggest that for the Hebrew mind, the only kind of consciousness is embodied consciousness - none of the writers of Scripture ever believed in a free-floating consciousness that exists without a body (although I suspect that some will raise the "spirit of Samuel" objection).

A think a key idea here is to recognize the conceptual possibility that the spririt that God "breathes" into us, and which returns to God at death (as per Ecclesiastes) does not carry consciousness. Analogy: Salt is made up of two elements, sodium and chlorine. Together, they exhibit the "saltiness" of salt. However, if salt is somehow decomposed into its parts, neither of them bears the property of saltiness. In the same way, I think that only when God breathes his "spirit" into a body is there consciousness. That consciousness is lost at physical death, as the Scriptures clearly teach.

 

[kal8]

So what's your theory on the hereafter kal? Metaphysical transformation?

We return to the whole.

 

[cyberjosh]

So what's your theory on the hereafter kal? Metaphysical transformation?

We return to the whole.

You're going to have to be more specific.

 

[Heidi]

Supposedly when we die our soul (essentially ourself without the physical body) goes to heaven. But you see, we all mistakenly identify ourselves with things that don't really exist...Our personalitys, our ego and our consciousness/self-awareness...Our personalities are a result of our experience, and our ego is a result of attachment to the physical world. Our consciousness is a result of our nervous system .So when we die, we leave the body, the ego, personality, and most importantly our consciousness behind. So what is left?

Without the indwelling Holy Spirit, all humans know is what their brains know. Before I was born again of the Holy Spirit, I agreed with you. I thought that when our brains die, then we have no capacity to perceive anything.

But once I received the Holy Spirit, then I knew that the Spirit (God) is eternal, not the flesh. So one can no more understand the eternal Spirit unless he posses the Spirit than one can understand the awesome design of the universe. But nevertheless, the universe exists. ;-)

 

[Jenny702]

Hey Kal8,

The Bible has made this very clear.

The soul is the part of the living body that comes from the Lord, and the physical body is the part that comes from the earth... the one with out the other results in a "dead person"...

*Edited out link... please confine such topics and links to our End Times Forum*.

God bless you!! :D

 

[Drew]

Hey Kal8,

The Bible has made this very clear.

The soul is the part of the living body that comes from the Lord, and the physical body is the part that comes from the earth... the one with out the other results in a "dead person"...

*Edited out link... please confine such topics and links to our End Times Forum*

God bless you!! :D

I do not think you are correct here. Can you provide Biblical evidence to the effect that the soul is a "thing" that is independent from the body? I know you provided a link but I am interested in what you think.

I believe that the term "soul" is a "heuristic" device - a term that we use to refer to the sometime mysterious qualities that make me "me" and you "you". It does not connote some kind of component of the human person that floats free of the body (and, for example, is the bearer of consciousness).

I will put forward Leviticus 17:11:

"For the life (the word translated as "life" here is the Hebrew word for "soul" - nephesh) of a creature is in the blood...."

To me, this text strongly links the concept of soul to the "physical" person. It seems like an awfully odd metaphor to use if the soul is not deeply bound up in the physicality of the person.

 

[DM]

I agree with Drew's premise on this issue.

A human being is composed of "dust of the ground" and "the breath of life" (cf. Genesis 2:7). The biblical word typically translated into the English language as "spirit", is from the Hebrew word "ruach" (Old Testament) and from the Greek word "pneuma" (New Testament). These Hebrew and Greek terms, which both mean "breath" or "wind" in their respective languages, were translated into the Latin language as "spiritus" (which also means "breath" or "wind"). The English word "spirit" is a transliteration of the Latin "spiritus". As such, the English word "spirit" is best understood at its root to mean "breath" or "wind".

Jesus, in explaining what it is to be "born again" to Nicodemus in John chapter 3, uses the word "pnuema" to describe the "wind" and the "spirit" in verse 8. The English words in that verse, translated as both "wind" and "spirit" come from the exact same Greek word "pneuma". We get English words like "pneumonia" and "pneumatic" from this Greek word. In the case of "pneumonia", this is an affliction of the lungs which can affect "breathing". Similarly, a "pneumatic" drill uses compressed air or "wind".

When a person dies, their "dust will return to the earth as it was" and "the spirit will return to God who gave it". (cf. Ecclesiastes 12:7)

Which is precisely why the New Testament "hope" is squarely focused on resurrection from "death" (not breathing / no spirit) to "life" (breathing / spirit). This is also why the unbiblical concept of "going to heaven" (or to hell) the moment one dies, offers little if any hope, to the human heart. Such a comcept creatues tremendous problems with the general resurrection of the dead as well - both of the righteous and of the wicked. For example, if the evil dead are judged and "go to hell" to "live forever", then the resurrection of the dead for them will simply be a welcome repreieve from their torment (which supposedly is lasting "forever"). The wages of sin is "death" (not "life in hell") - Romans 6:23.

Grace and peace.
David

 

[Bick]

Why is it that so few Bible students actually search and study what the Scriptures have to say about the make-up of man; being a 'living soul'?

The use of a good concordance would open many eyes concerning this subject.

NO WHERE in the Scriptures do we read of the soul being "eternal" or "everlasting".

Starting in Genesis 2:7, "And the Lord God formed man of the dust of the ground, and breathed into his nostrils the breath of life; and man became a living soul."
NOTICE: A separate soul was not joined to a prepared body. Man became a living soul when the breath of the spirit of life was breathed into his nostrils.

In the OT particularly, soul (nephesh--Heb.) is used hundreds of times. And when studied, SOUL could be said to be the consciousness, the feelings, the desires, produced by the breath of life vitalizing the body. Thus, man is a living sentient being, with all his senses, capable of knowledge, memory, thought, love, joy, delight, bitterness, distress, impatience, mourning, sorrow, grief, abhorrence, hatred, etc.

Many times man is called a "soul" in the Scriptures:
Gen. 12:5, "Abram took his wife...and the souls they had gotten in Haran."
Exod. 12:4, "If the household be too little for the lamb, let him and his neighbor....take it according to the number of souls."
Acts 2:41, "Then they that gladly received his word were baptized: and the same day were added...about three thousand souls..."
Acts 2:43, :And fear came upon every soul..."
See also: Acts 7:14, 27:37; Rom. 2:9, 13:1; 1 Cor. 15:45, etc.

And, even today we say "That happy soul" or "That poor soul".

Many times the soul is said to die or be dead:
Josh. 10:28, "And that day Joshua took Makkedah and smote it with the edge of the sword and the king thereof....and all the souls therein."
See also, Josh. 10:30,32,35,37,39; 11:11; Jer, 2:34; Ezek. 13:19; 22:25-27.

And a familiar verse: Ezek. 18:4, "The soul that sinneth it shall die." It should be obvious that some "immaterial soul" could never sin and die. It is the whole person: his senses, his feelings, his memory, etc, that can sin and die.

Man's spirit may be defined as his life giving force, and is related to breath:

Concerning Noah's flood: Gen. 7:22, "All in whose nostrils was the breath (neshamah--Heb.) of the spirit (ruach--Heb.) of life that was on the dry land died."

Our spirit is being formed within us (as long as we are breathing): Zech. 12:1, "...the Lord , which stretcheth forth the heavens, and layeth the foundation of the earth, and formeth the spirit of man within him."

SPEAKING OF DEATH:
Man's spirit (life force) upon death returns to God who gave it. Life is a gift of God.
Eccl. 12:7, "Then shall the dust return to the earth as it was; and the spirit shall return unto God who gave it."

 

[Drew]

Why is it that so few Bible students actually search and study what the Scriptures have to say about the make-up of man; being a 'living soul'?"

I think it is because they are so immersed in western society's deeply ingrained acceptance of Platonism, they simply cannot seem to wrench free from the notion that the only logically possible structure for a human person (that also ends living eternally with God if s/he is a believer) entails a physical "container" into which is inserted an immortal consciousness-bearing soul / spirit.

You and I and DM (and some others) agree that the Scriptures teach something entirely different, but when one looks at the world through "Plato goggles", and do not realize one is even doing so, well........

 

[unred typo]

quote by Drew:
I think it is because they are so immersed in western society's deeply ingrained acceptance of Platonism, they simply cannot seem to wrench free from the notion that the only logically possible structure for a human person (that also ends living eternally with God if s/he is a believer) entails a physical "container" into which is inserted an immortal consciousness-bearing soul / spirit.

You and I and DM (and some others) agree that the Scriptures teach something entirely different, but when one looks at the world through "Plato goggles", and do not realize one is even doing so, well........

Plato goggled here, I guess. I have a hard time getting these things off. When I read some of the warnings of Jesus, I have a real problem even imagining that a person doesn‘t exist after death, if that is what you’re saying. I guess that means I’m going to have to disagree *choke* with you, Drew, as much as I hate to.

Maybe you can explain what Jesus meant when he told of the rich man and Lazarus and how that would even come into play in your theory. According to what I’ve read so far, the rich man has no consciousness after death. And yes, while you’re at it, throw in the appearance of Samuel although I realize that may fall under a different category since he was a believer and the rich man was suffering a different fate.

 

[Drew]

I guess that means I’m going to have to disagree *choke* with you, Drew, as much as I hate to.

Well it's about time....... :D

Maybe you can explain what Jesus meant when he told of the rich man and Lazarus and how that would even come into play in your theory. According to what I’ve read so far, the rich man has no consciousness after death. And yes, while you’re at it, throw in the appearance of Samuel although I realize that may fall under a different category since he was a believer and the rich man was suffering a different fate.

Just between you and me (haha) I have always felt that the Samuel account was the best counterargument to the position that I have come believe in. I always expect that people will bring it up, but they rarely do. In case others are not in the know, I assume you are referring to this account:

"The king said to her, "Do not be afraid; but what do you see?" And the woman said to Saul, "I see a divine being coming up out of the earth."

He said to her, "What is his form?" And she said, "An old man is coming up, and he is wrapped with a robe " And Saul knew that it was Samuel, and he bowed with his face to the ground and did homage.

Then Samuel said to Saul, "Why have you disturbed me by bringing me up?"

My initial response is to say that this is a "vision" and is not really evidence that Samuel is in a conscious state somewhere. I think that we have to look at the big picture - the wide scope of Biblical references re what happens after death. I would suggest that the use of this one account (plus the appearance of Moses and somebody else on the top of the mountain with Jesus) to support consciousness in the afterlife before bodily resurrection is like a Martian overhearing a young man say "I will love you forever" to his girfriend and thereby concluding that humans believe that they will indeed live forever. The appearance of Samual is really an exception to what I think is an impressive list of texts that suggest that "its lights out" until Jesus call us forth.

A key text in this regard is 1 Cor 15:22-23 which states that no one other than Jesus is "made alive" until after the return of Christ. People will argue that this is a reference to the wrapping in redeemed flesh of an already fully conscious, interacting, communicating, praising spirit / soul. I think that does to much damage to the nominal sesne of what it means to be "made alive". Being in heaven in a fully conscious state, praising God, interacting with others? - that pretty much sounds like being already alive to me. The wrapping of all that in a flesh suit seems more like "getting dressed" than being "made alive".

I think the Luke 16 account is a parable - possibly with the rich man representing national Israel. The rich man has five brothers as did Judah through his mother Leah and I understand Judah is sometimes otherwise viewed in the Scriptures as being a representative for all Israel. Jesus is telling the Jewish leaders that the Jewish people are not covenant members (and therefore heirs to the covenant promises) strictly by being born Jewish and that the Jews have erred in this "national boast". Instead the covenant will include the unwashed Gentiles - such as Lazarus.

 

[unred typo]

quote by Drew on Sat Sep 29, 2007 4:52 am
unred typo wrote:I guess that means I’m going to have to disagree *choke* with you, Drew, as much as I hate to.

Well it's about time....... :D

LOL…yup…as they say, all good things must come to an end. Now that all the belligerent opposition skulked off, I guess we’re just left to bicker among ourselves. :wink:

quote by Drew:

Just between you and me (haha) I have always felt that the Samuel account was the best counterargument to the position that I have come believe in. I always expect that people will bring it up, but they rarely do. In case others are not in the know, I assume you are referring to this account:

"The king said to her, "Do not be afraid; but what do you see?" And the woman said to Saul, "I see a divine being coming up out of the earth."

He said to her, "What is his form?" And she said, "An old man is coming up, and he is wrapped with a robe " And Saul knew that it was Samuel, and he bowed with his face to the ground and did homage.

Then Samuel said to Saul, "Why have you disturbed me by bringing me up?"

My initial response is to say that this is a "vision" and is not really evidence that Samuel is in a conscious state somewhere. I think that we have to look at the big picture - the wide scope of Biblical references re what happens after death. I would suggest that the use of this one account (plus the appearance of Moses and somebody else on the top of the mountain with Jesus) to support consciousness in the afterlife before bodily resurrection is like a Martian overhearing a young man say "I will love you forever" to his girfriend and thereby concluding that humans believe that they will indeed live forever. The appearance of Samual is really an exception to what I think is an impressive list of texts that suggest that "its lights out" until Jesus call us forth.

I don’t believe this is any vision of Samuel. I’ve been told that before by pastors who believed in consciousness after death but the text is pretty clear that it is an actual appearance of Samuel himself or his spirit. I don’t see this as particularly damaging to your claim though because, as you say, it really is an exception and an extremely rare one at that. The thing that interests me most then about this instance is the statement by Samuel himself. He inexplicably says that Saul has disturbed him, as if he was asleep and rudely awoken and sent to honor Saul’s request for his appearance. The other thing that amazes me is that his form is that of an old man. Obviously, he has not been transformed into a new improved body that we have been promised when Jesus returns. Then again, this is an exception to the standard situation and Jesus has not come the first time, let alone returned at this time.

quote by Drew:

A key text in this regard is 1 Cor 15:22-23 which states that no one other than Jesus is "made alive" until after the return of Christ. People will argue that this is a reference to the wrapping in redeemed flesh of an already fully conscious, interacting, communicating, praising spirit / soul. I think that does to much damage to the nominal sesne of what it means to be "made alive". Being in heaven in a fully conscious state, praising God, interacting with others? - that pretty much sounds like being already alive to me. The wrapping of all that in a flesh suit seems more like "getting dressed" than being "made alive".

1 Corinthians 15 is an excellent source for ideas on this subject. I agree that we are not said to be made alive until after the return of Christ. Maybe we can put a more distinct definition on the term ’made alive’ than what we normally think of. Or the term ’death’ may be more like being unplugged from the source of life, or from our bodies or from God or from our natural physical life on earth. It has long been a concern of mine that Adam didn’t appear to die (as we think of death) on the very day he ate of the tree and I know God didn’t lie so it must be that our perception of death is off from what God meant. My answer to this has been to think of death as a separation from the source of life ( the tree of life, or God himself.) Something is wrong with that idea but I’m not sure how to hone it down to the truth so it’s what I have to work with so far. I think chapter 15 is where the answers will come from for the most part. I’m going to read it again and sleep on it before trying to formulate a real concrete idea though.

quote by Drew:

I think the Luke 16 account is a parable - possibly with the rich man representing national Israel. The rich man has five brothers as did Judah through his mother Leah and I understand Judah is sometimes otherwise viewed in the Scriptures as being a representative for all Israel. Jesus is telling the Jewish leaders that the Jewish people are not covenant members (and therefore heirs to the covenant promises) strictly by being born Jewish and that the Jews have erred in this "national boast". Instead the covenant will include the unwashed Gentiles - such as Lazarus.

The 16th chapter is rather disjointed and bounces all over, imho. The whole chapter doesn’t flow right, as if there are chunks cut out of it. I suppose the Lazarus story could be a parable but it seems more like a warning about what those who have riches now can look forward to if they have no concern for the poor. I am more inclined to believe it is in the same vein as the words of Jesus to the goats, “even as you did it not unto the least of these my brethren, you did it not unto me.†It seems to be literal to me, even though in poetic terms. (i.e. Abraham’s bosom, great gulf, flame)

I don’t have ‘set in stone’ views but they are fairly congealed around the body/soul/spirit concept that you say is from Plato. Maybe he copied early Christian ideas on the subject. :-D

 

[Free]

Samuel is a good example and so is the account of Christ's transfiguration.

 

[unred typo]

quote by Free on Sun Sep 30, 2007 12:17 am

Samuel is a good example and so is the account of Christ's transfiguration.

I can see why you might think so but Drew has a point. These could be as easily considered as exceptions to the normal course of events. You can pursue those examples but I’m going to concentrate on things Jesus said and the 15th chapter of 1 Corinthians. Except as Woody said to Buz, “Not today!†or at least not until tonight….

 

[Free]

If these are exceptions then it is likely that these are not the only exceptions throughout history. But even more than that, how could there even be exceptions if there is no soul?

 

[Christian Commando]

Hey everyone-

So, Biblical evidence is needed, ok- Lets get started -

1- Gen. 1:27-29- Proof God "created the spirit-soul- (spirit and spiritual intellect- "personality)" first before He "makes" the body's of Adam and Eve- 2:7- Adam, vs 21-22- Eve.

2- God declares, "To be absent from the body, is to be present with the Lord. ("With" the Lord- (our spirit), not "in" the Lord- (Breath of God).

3- Jesus declared to repentant thief on the cross- "Today, thou shalt be with Me in Paradise". How could the thief be there with Christ, if only the "Breath of God" at physical death?

4- Christ declares- "Ye do err, for man shall be as the Angels are". This was pertaining to a marriage of a woman to 7 brothers, which she'd be married to after physical death.

5- Look at Rev.6:9-11 for the (spirit-souls) who've already died and are with God in Heaven. They have an intellect- 10, spirit bodies, 11.

God is very clear on this subject.

Now, as to King Saul's stupidity in searching out that witch to gain future information, how can Samuels" appaearance even be considered close to representing christ's transfiguration?

The fact is, God allowed Samuel's spirit to leave aradise long enough to appear before Saul and chew him out for his going against God. Question that? Look in the Mew Test where the Old Test Patriarchs are mentioned. Saul is not listed ith them.

God chose Saul, yet Saul himself, chose to go against God's Word and even God Himself in warnings. Saul wouldn't listen, so God chastized Saul by letting Sameul come and lay into him for that. Yes, ist out of norm. for the situation called for extreme measures. Because of that, Saul died young and was lost to god in Hell for his transgressions.

This certainly is not a representation of Christ's transfiguration. Look at the decription of the transfiguration and look at Sameul's appearance, not the same.

God Bless!!