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How can there be a soul?

The whole idea that man can be broken into a consciousness-bearing immaterial component and a flesh container for that component is, I would claim, a rejection of God's claim that His created World was "very good".

This dualist view really does relativize the physical by its claim that the essence of who we are - our thoughts, consciousness, loves, wishes, dreams, etc. - are all bundled together in this immaterial soul that lives independently of physical body in which it is housed. No wonder obesity runs rampant in the Christianized west - we have come to accept the subtle falsehood that material creation is merely a kind of "container" for these consciousness bearing souls. So we do not care for our bodies.

In Gen 2:7 we get a different picture - the intermingling of dust and spirit gives rise to personhood.

In Isaiah 11 we get a different picture - "The whole earth is full of His glory."

In Romans 8, Paul opines for the future redemption of the physical world - God is redeeming his creation as Isaiah promises:

You will go out in joy
and be led forth in peace;
the mountains and hills
will burst into song before you,
and all the trees of the field
will clap their hands.
Instead of the thornbush will grow the pine tree,
and instead of briers the myrtle will grow.
This will be for the LORD's renown,
for an everlasting sign,
which will not be destroyed


Our destiny is not Heaven, but this earth remade and transformed. Jesus does not come at the end to rescue us from the Earth, but to transform the Earth. The physical world - including our bodies - are not mere "containers" for immaterial souls in which is vested our essence. I think it is far more consistent with the tenor of Scripture as a whole to see our physicality as being intimate connected up with who we are - our conscious selves. It seems unlikely to me that God is going to all this effort to redeem the physical world if our bodies are merely "flesh coverings" for an conscious essence that is exlusively immaterial.
 
handy said:
Drew said:
I will not be surprised if some readers, familiar with my overall views about life after death, will think my argument in the para above creates an internal inconsistency in my overall view about life after death.

Bring it on........ :P

IT :smt079 (This is me, bringing It)

Seriously, I have been wondering for quite some time what your take is on the very clear statement of Jesus to the theif that he would be with Him in Paradise that day.
I think that, given many other texts, we have to understand Jesus as speaking "phenomenologically" here - what Jesus and the thief will experience as subjects, not what is strictly objectively the case.

If I say "I was hit in the head with the baseball and then I saw doctors and nurses looking down at me", I am not lying - I am expressing how the world plays out from my perspective. We all know that the "third party objective truth" is that I must have spent many minutes or hours in an unconscious state from the time I was hit with the ball till I awake in the hospital.

I think that Jesus is speaking to the thief in that sense and would go so far as to say that the thief - like the billions of people who have lived and died - is presently resting in his grave. I think it will be all the more glorious when we who have been purchased by the blood enter the new life - together as the family we are.

Not to mention this post-resurrection statement from John 20:
Jesus said, "Do not hold on to me, for I have not yet returned to the Father. Go instead to my brothers and tell them, 'I am returning to my Father and your Father, to my God and your God.

People come up with all sorts of theories - the wildest one to me is this one:

Jesus dies and His spirit goes to Hell;
Then His spirit goes to "Paradise" and takes everyone there up to Heaven;
His spirit then comes down and get re-inserted in his body.
He finally ascends back to Heaven bodily.

I get dizzy just writing it down.

I think that to have Jesus come back to life - all of Him, including His Spirit - on Easter morning is a dramatic account that strikes me as being more consistent with how God works.

The following ideas are inspired by NT Wright:

Remember, Jesus rises on the eighth day - the first day of a new week. To me this is not a coincidence. God rested on the seventh day. It is on the 8th day that we get new creation. It seems far more coherent with the overall story to think that this new creation involves rescuing all of Jesus - body and spirit from the dust of death as that 8th day breaks...
 
Ok, I can't remember all the points made from the previos page leading to this one, but as for where God's Word states Christ went to Hell? Check these two out- Ephes. 4:7-10 and I Peter 3:18-19 and I believe you'll get your answer.

As to wether man has a spirit body that continues to live after phys. death or not, Lets start with this list, of which I can't remember, but did show some of them already. And if still not enough, I do have a website with a direct link to sharing on this, if so desire, and am allowed, I will provide that. But not without authorization. It is a Christian website, and one I help Moderate on.

1- Gen.35:18- "And it came to pass, as her soul was in departing, (for she died), that she called his name Benoni: but his father called him Benjamin."

This clearly shows, that a spirit leaves a phys. dead body at that moment of death. It also shows it has intellect, as her soul "called"- (spoke). Thus, it is alive.

2- Matt. 22:31-32- " "But as touching the ressurrectin of the dead, have ye not read that which was spoken unto you by God saying, 32- I am the God of Abraham, the God of Isaac and the God of Jacob? God is not the God of the dead, but of the living."

Hmmm, there again, comes across plain as day, we have a spirit that lives, not a soul that sleeps in an unconcious state, or goes back "into" God as His "Breath".

3- Mk. 12:22-27- "And as touching the dead, that they rise; have ye not read in the Book of Moses, how in the bush God spake unto him, saying, I am the God of Abraham, the God of Isaac and the God of Jacob?" 27- He is not the God of the dead, but the God of the ling: ye do greatly err."

Well, here it makes reference to God stating this to Mosees, "after", all 3 God mentions are phys. dead. Hmmm, plain as day again. Man has a spirit body and if belongs to God, it does "live" after phys. death.

4- Lk. 23:43- "Verily I say unto thee, To day shalt thou be with Me in Paradise."

Hmmm, strange, heres "God in the flesh" telling someone else, before He- (Christ), has been ressurrected, even before phys. death, that they will be with him in another place, in spirit bodies.

5- Lk. 24:37-39- "But they were terrified and afrighted, and supposed that they had seen a spirit. 38- And He said unto them, whay are ye troubled? And why do thoughts arise in your hearts? 39- Behold My hands and My feet, that it is Myself: Handle Me, and see: for a spirit hath not flesh and bones as you see Me have."

Hmmm, v 24 seems to make it very clear, a "spiritbody", looks identical to a live phys. body, but does not have the flesh and bones of the phys. body. Again, kinda hard to miss that proof.

6- Jhn. 11:26- "And whosoever liveth and believeth in Me shall never die. Believest thou this?"

Wow, strait out "shall never die". Hmmm, well, can't argue that one hehe. Unless a person wants to dispute what Christ literally said being true or not. If so, is Jesus as "God in the flesh" a liar?

7- II Cor. 5:6-7- "whilst we are at home in the body, we are absent from the Lord". "I say, and willing rather to be absent from the body, and present with the Lord".

Notice its plain as day again, our spirit leaves the body at phys. death and goes directly to God for His children.

8- Ephes. 4:9-10- "(Now that He ascended, what is it but that He also descended first into the lower parts of the earth- (Hell)? 10- He that descended, is the same also that ascended up far above all Heavens, that He might fill all things".

Well well, it seems Christ is spoken of as had "descended" to Hell.

9- Phillip. 1:23- " "For I am in a strait betwixt two, having a desire to depart, and to be with Christ; which is far better."

Now, if his "soul" stays asleep in the ground or goes back into God as His "Breath", whats the joy in that? Yet Paul states a desire to "depart", to be "with" Christ. Particularly if in this strange "state of unconciousness spoken of. Imposible.

10- Jms. 2:26- "For as the body without the "spirit" is dead, so faith without works is dead".

Hmmm, theres that word again- "spirit". Seems we do have one after all.

11- 3:18-19- " For Christ also hath once suffered for sins, the just for the unjust, that He might bring us to God, being put to death in the flesh, but quickened by the Spirit: 19- By which also He went and preached unto the spirits in prison".- (Hell).

Ahuh, ok, how bout that, another reference where Christ is said to have gone to Hell to suffer for us, plus, He "preached" (spoke) to those there in Hell. Hmmm. Interesting.

12- Jude 1:7- "Even as Sodom and Gomorah, and the cities about them in like manner, giving themselves over to fornication and going after strange flesh, are set forth for an example, suffering the vengence of eternal fire."

Ok, it seems pretty clear, God is not speaking of buildings and streets here, but the populations- (people) of those cities who are "suffering the vengence of eternal fire. (Present tense seen here).

13- Rev. 6:9-11- already covered, yet very clear people have a spirit, seen under this altar, and are given "white robes"- (clothing), to wear, and told to be at peace, for a short time is yet to be fulfilled with more actions to happen yet.

14- Rev. 20:4- "I saw the souls of them that were beheaded for the witness of Jesus" " and they lived and reigned with christ a thousand years".

Ok, so, if "souls" are asleep or unconcious, without a spirit body, how would John know they were the "souls of them that were beheaded"?

There can be no dispute. God "created" man with a "spirit body", as seen in all the above references, and the earlier reference where it scared the disciples greatly, thinking they had "seen a spirit". Yet, it was the ressurrected Jesus- (both spirit and body Glorified).

Taking God's word out of context, a person can make It mean anything they want, just as the Pharocees and other religious Leaders of Christ's Day had.

God Bless!!
 
1- Gen.35:18- "And it came to pass, as her soul was in departing, (for she died), that she called his name Benoni: but his father called him Benjamin."

This clearly shows, that a spirit leaves a phys. dead body at that moment of death. It also shows it has intellect, as her soul "called"- (spoke). Thus, it is alive.
Your conclusion has two problems. First, it is arguable that her utterance was delivered just before she died. Second, we know from Biblical precedent that "soul" can refer to the person as a whole. I can prove this if you like. So this text could legitimately be seen as simply asserting that "she (a soul) died and as she died, she called out". "As her soul was in departing" can be read as "as she died". Since "soul" so often refers to the whole person or to their physicality ('the soul is in the blood'), you have no grounds to claim that this is a reference to the departure of an immaterial soul.

5- Lk. 24:37-39- "But they were terrified and afrighted, and supposed that they had seen a spirit. 38- And He said unto them, whay are ye troubled? And why do thoughts arise in your hearts? 39- Behold My hands and My feet, that it is Myself: Handle Me, and see: for a spirit hath not flesh and bones as you see Me have."

Hmmm, v 24 seems to make it very clear, a "spiritbody", looks identical to a live phys. body, but does not have the flesh and bones of the phys. body. Again, kinda hard to miss that proof.
Jesus is clearly asserting his physicality - that He can be touched. He is saying that a spirit does not have flesh and bone "as you see Me have".

II Cor. 5:6-7- "whilst we are at home in the body, we are absent from the Lord". "I say, and willing rather to be absent from the body, and present with the Lord".[/qoute]

Notice its plain as day again, our spirit leaves the body at phys. death and goes directly to God for His children.
Not as plain as you might think. If I say "I would rather be absent from Yale and present and Princeton" does this mean that I instantly would transition from Yale to Princeton?

10- Jms. 2:26- "For as the body without the "spirit" is dead, so faith without works is dead".

Hmmm, theres that word again- "spirit". Seems we do have one after all.
I do not deny we have a spirit. Where is the Scriptural evidence, just one unambiguous text will do, that this spirit bears our consciousness?
 
Christian Commando said:
12- Jude 1:7- "Even as Sodom and Gomorah, and the cities about them in like manner, giving themselves over to fornication and going after strange flesh, are set forth for an example, suffering the vengence of eternal fire."

Ok, it seems pretty clear, God is not speaking of buildings and streets here, but the populations- (people) of those cities who are "suffering the vengence of eternal fire. (Present tense seen here).
You have parsed the grammer incorrectly. The thing that is in the presence is the setting of forth of the example. If I say "MacBeth is set forth as an example, suffering the punishment of his foolishness", I am not claiming that MacBeth is presently suffering.
 
I appreciate your thoughts on this subject. I think I have a clearer understanding after reading your posts even if we may not be saying the exact same thing.

quote by Drew on Wed Oct 03, 2007:
The whole idea that man can be broken into a consciousness-bearing immaterial component and a flesh container for that component is, I would claim, a rejection of God's claim that His created World was "very good".

I think you’re right that man is not that simply defined. I don’t know that it can be confirmed by the premise you site. His created world was very good, but the sin of Adam physically changed the created world, as you have before affirmed.

quote by Drew
This dualist view really does relativize the physical by its claim that the essence of who we are - our thoughts, consciousness, loves, wishes, dreams, etc. - are all bundled together in this immaterial soul that lives independently of physical body in which it is housed. No wonder obesity runs rampant in the Christianized west - we have come to accept the subtle falsehood that material creation is merely a kind of "container" for these consciousness bearing souls. So we do not care for our bodies.

In Gen 2:7 we get a different picture - the intermingling of dust and spirit gives rise to personhood.

In Isaiah 11 we get a different picture - "The whole earth is full of His glory."

In Romans 8, Paul opines for the future redemption of the physical world - God is redeeming his creation as Isaiah promises:

You will go out in joy
and be led forth in peace;
the mountains and hills
will burst into song before you,
and all the trees of the field
will clap their hands.
Instead of the thornbush will grow the pine tree,
and instead of briers the myrtle will grow.
This will be for the LORD's renown,
for an everlasting sign,
which will not be destroyed

The earth is going to be destroyed and remade according to Peter and John though:

2 Peter 3:10
But the day of the Lord will come as a thief in the night; in the which the heavens shall pass away with a great noise, and the elements shall melt with fervent heat, the earth also and the works that are therein shall be burned up.
Revelation 20:11
And I saw a great white throne, and him that sat on it, from whose face the earth and the heaven fled away; and there was found no place for them.


I believe there will be a new heaven, a new earth, and a new city of Jerusalem, (that foursquare city in the clouds, that only certain ones will be allowed in, if I remember correctly. ) There will be a river and trees and all the good things of earth but none of the evil.

quote by Drew:
Our destiny is not Heaven, but this earth remade and transformed. Jesus does not come at the end to rescue us from the Earth, but to transform the Earth.

I agree. This physical earth will be transformed by ‘fervent heat.’ Romans 8 makes me believe God also intends to transform every creature of nature that has suffered from the sin of man.

quote by Drew:
The physical world - including our bodies - are not mere "containers" for immaterial souls in which is vested our essence. I think it is far more consistent with the tenor of Scripture as a whole to see our physicality as being intimate connected up with who we are - our conscious selves. It seems unlikely to me that God is going to all this effort to redeem the physical world if our bodies are merely "flesh coverings" for an conscious essence that is exlusively immaterial.


I think I know what you’re saying and can address your concerns. The physical body isn’t just a flesh container for immaterial souls that contain our essence. There is more of a connection than that. Out of the physical will grow the seed of the spiritual body we will have in eternity. The Bible explains it quite thoroughly in 1 Corinthians 15. I think we would do well to tie our understanding to that passage. Our physical body, connected to our spirit, or essence of who we are, is the seed for the new man from which our new incorruptible body will grow. The Holy Spirit is the life of that seed. Without life, the seed will not sprout. If you ever planted a garden, you will know that not all seeds have life in them. He that has the son, has life.

35But some man will say, How are the dead raised up? and with what body do they come?
36You fool, that which you sow is not quickened, except it die:
37And that which you sow, you sow not that body that shall be, but bare grain, it may chance of wheat, or of some other grain: But God gives it a body as it has pleased him, and to every seed his own body.


When you plant a seed, the seed is not what grows out of the shell, but the seed itself is the food for a sprout that comes out from it and matures into a plant. Every seed does not yield the same kind of plant. Our physical bodies will not be the same as our spiritual bodies, neither will our spiritual bodies be the same kind of being as disembodied spirits, demons or angels.

39All flesh is not the same flesh: but there is one kind of flesh of men, another flesh of beasts, another of fishes, and another of birds.
40There are also celestial bodies, and bodies terrestrial: but the glory of the celestial is one, and the glory of the terrestrial is another.
41There is one glory of the sun, and another glory of the moon, and another glory of the stars: for one star differs from another star in glory.


Not all the saved are going to have the same new model of spiritual body. Some will be the Cadillac model and some will be a Honda version, depending on how much goodness was put into the seed; our soul. This is something we can work on to improve in this life. The life of the seed is Christ but the food that nourishes the ‘sprout’ is enhanced by what we add to our character and how much of God’s word we absorb into our lives and actually use to become more like Christ not just in word but in deeds.


42So also is the resurrection of the dead. It is sown in corruption; it is raised in incorruption: It is sown in dishonor; it is raised in glory: it is sown in weakness; it is raised in power:

The old body is going to die and the essence of our being is going to nourish our new being. The new beings we become will not suffer decay, aging, defects or pain. It’s all good.

44It is sown a natural body; it is raised a spiritual body. There is a natural body, and there is a spiritual body.
45And so it is written, The first man Adam was made a living soul; the last Adam was made a quickening spirit.
46Howbeit that was not first which is spiritual, but that which is natural; and afterward that which is spiritual.


We were first born of Adam, into the human family. Those who are born of God, are in Christ. In Adam, we all die, in Christ, we all become alive as never before in Adam.


47The first man is of the earth, earthy; the second man is the Lord from heaven.
48As is the earthy, such are they also that are earthy: and as is the heavenly, such are they also that are heavenly.
49And as we have borne the image of the earthy, we shall also bear the image of the heavenly.


Adam was made from the dust of the earth united with the breath of God but Jesus was made from the word of God united with human flesh. Those who have the spirit of Christ in them, will be conformed completely into the image of Christ.

50Now this I say, brethren, that flesh and blood cannot inherit the kingdom of God; neither does corruption inherit incorruption.
51Behold, I show you a mystery; We shall not all sleep, but we shall all be changed,
52In a moment, in the twinkling of an eye, at the last trump: for the trumpet shall sound, and the dead shall be raised incorruptible, and we shall be changed.
53For this corruptible must put on incorruption, and this mortal must put on immortality.
54So when this corruptible shall have put on incorruption, and this mortal shall have put on immortality, then shall be brought to pass the saying that is written, Death is swallowed up in victory.


The seed of our soul, the flesh and blood, dies and it’s essence is assimilated into the incorruptible spiritual being. It’s not that we lose who we were, but the goodness of us, however much or little there is, flows into the new creation in Christ, and the old evil things are discarded and burnt up like the chaff of wheat.

I hope that was not too ambiguous and we can come to a real understanding of the truth together. I believe it is given to each of us a piece of the puzzle and we need to share our little part with others to put together the whole picture. When some think they have a corner on the truth, it probably is true. They just have a little corner piece that fits into the whole somewhere.
 
unred typo said:
The earth is going to be destroyed and remade according to Peter and John though:

2 Peter 3:10
But the day of the Lord will come as a thief in the night; in the which the heavens shall pass away with a great noise, and the elements shall melt with fervent heat, the earth also and the works that are therein shall be burned up.
Revelation 20:11
And I saw a great white throne, and him that sat on it, from whose face the earth and the heaven fled away; and there was found no place for them.


I believe there will be a new heaven, a new earth, and a new city of Jerusalem
Hello unred:

I hope to respond to other things in your post - I think we generally see things the same way. However, I am presently of the mind that texts like the ones you point to above do not really mean that the world will be destroyed. Of course, I would need to defend that view and I have not yet had the time to think about them.

However, based on texts like Romans 8:18-25 I would bet that the world will not be destroyed. I would see such a destruction as effectively suggesting that God's "first cut" has to be scrapped. And I see all sorts of parallels with between:

1. vindication of Jesus
2. vindication of Israel
3. vindication of believers
4. vindication of cosmos

It justs seems to me that if God "redeeming" (and not destroying) in so many areas that, in the end, He is not going to do away with his created world but rather transform it.

However, I do need to address the seeming implications of destruction in the texts you present.
 
Christian Commando said:
14- Rev. 20:4- "I saw the souls of them that were beheaded for the witness of Jesus" " and they lived and reigned with christ a thousand years".

Ok, so, if "souls" are asleep or unconcious, without a spirit body, how would John know they were the "souls of them that were beheaded"?
The text in question is so obviously metaphorical that any efforts to draw conclusions about the constitution of the human person are highly questionable.

There are references to Satan as a dragon, a chain to be used to bind Satan, and thrones. And we should not overlook the contiguous material in Revelation 19 which futher stresses the metaphorical and symbolic nature of the narrative. In Revelation 19, we have a rider on a white horse with eyes of blazing fire, many crowns are on his head, his robe is dipped in blood, a sword comes out of his mouth, and on and on.

It is in this obviously allegorical context that the statement about the souls is made. That should be reason enough to doubt its reliability as a narrative about the nature of souls.

To conclude that human persons have immaterial consciousness bearing souls based on this narrative is like concluding that there really is a world of Narnia accessible through the wardrobe. The material is simply too obviously symbolic to be taken as directly descriptive of reality.
 
DavidLee said:
... Jesus did not say to the thief "you shall be with me in Sheol for a bit, then on we go to Heaven".
Lazarus was carried by the angles to Abraham's side(or bosom). I can find no reference to "Paradise" in the Old Testament so I think Sheol and Paradise are not the same place, but you could be right. I'm wrong so often I'm quite used to the feeling now. ;)
It's there, most people just don't recognize it. It's right there from the start. ;-) It was commonly know by the early Hebrews as The Garden on Eden, the Royal Garden. The Greek Septuagint translates this Garden as "paradeisos ".
 
quote by Drew on Thu Oct 04, 2007:
However, based on texts like Romans 8:18-25 I would bet that the world will not be destroyed. I would see such a destruction as effectively suggesting that God's "first cut" has to be scrapped. And I see all sorts of parallels with between:

1. vindication of Jesus
2. vindication of Israel
3. vindication of believers
4. vindication of cosmos

It justs seems to me that if God "redeeming" (and not destroying) in so many areas that, in the end, He is not going to do away with his created world but rather transform it.

However, I do need to address the seeming implications of destruction in the texts you present.

Those look good so far. You have a couple more verses that I didn’t list because I couldn’t come up with enough exact words to do a search. The whole chapter of 2 Peter 3 kinda shoots down any idea that there will be much left of the old earth. How much do you think will be left? I lean toward a complete face peel, down past the old layers where the destruction from the floods of Jasher and Genesis can still be seen. And the sky needs to be sterilized from all the pollution and germs and diseases unleashed on the present world. Roll that atmosphere away. Bring in the new. Get rid of the cesspool of an ocean we have now…it’s pretty gross, and I love being at the seacoast.

Here are a few more verses I found:

Revelation 21:1
And I saw a new heaven and a new earth: for the first heaven and the first earth were passed away; and there was no more sea.

Luke 21:33
Heaven and earth shall pass away: but my words shall not pass away.

Mark 13:31
Heaven and earth shall pass away: but my words shall not pass away.

Matthew 24:35
Heaven and earth shall pass away, but my words shall not pass away.

Isaiah 65:17
For, behold, I create new heavens and a new earth: and the former shall not be remembered, nor come into mind.
 
Ah Drew, you are so very interesting how you interperate Scriptures. But here are your discrepancies in your expalinations to m responces.

Gen 35:18-

You claimed, what she said, could've been before she died? Sorry, but way off- notice the wording-

"as her soul was departing (for she died)" She was dead my friend. No doubt. A human soul does not depart from thier body unless the phys. body has ceased to function- (died). Therefore, your assumption she could've said this while still alive is unfounded.

Lk. 24:37-

Of course Jesus is doing that, yet notice that He had passed thru a solid door without opening it. A normal human cannot do so without opening it first. Thus is why, the Disciples first thought Christ to be a "spirit". Jesus had to prove to the disciples He had been ressurrected, so thats natural to assume He would have to prove that.

Yet, keep in mind, the women who went to the tomb to "do thier thing" after the Sabbath, did not recognize Christ who was standing in plain site nearby either, until He spoke to them. Jesus only showed It to the degree for the others to understand how they would be after ressurrection and Glorifying of thier dead bodies and joined to thier spirits once more.

But to the point- tho Christ was ressurrected and Glorified, being mistaken at first as a "spirit", this plainly proves, spirit bodies do exist for man and that Rev. 6:9, and Rev. 20:4 prove, John was seeing actual spirit bodies with an intellect- (6:9), speaking, experiencing emotions, and able to wear a type of spiritual clothing.

II Cor. 5:6-7-

Quite out of context for the example you used, as you are talking an action that is fully related to stayng within the phys. realm- (boundaries and limitations clearly not the same as between the phys. compare to the spiritual ones), where the biblical one I used, refers to the tranlation from the phys. to the spiritual. Thus, it has no proper foundation for the example I gave.

Jude 1:7-

You said it does not show "present tense" in that Scripture? I beg to differ on that. Again, notice the wording my friend-

"suffering the vengence of eternal fire". Notice the words- "eternal fire". This clearly shows, what those people are suffering is "eternal"- (eternal fire). Unquenched, therefore, still going on since it had started.

What Scriptures prove our spirit bears our conciousness?

Gen. 1:27-28- clearly shows the "creation" part of man- male and female and God talking to them, where God does not "make" the phys. bodies of Adam and Eve "seperately", until after the earth is finished and ready for them to inhabit it.

Scripture that declares where Christ goes to preach to those spirits in prison. Now, this is clearly during the 3 days and nites Christ is in Hell before His ressurrection and His phys. body lays dead in the borrowed tomb, His spirit paying the ransom for our sins, yet still speaking- (preaching), to those spirits in "Paradise"- (To day, shalt thou be with Me in Paradise.)

Rev. 6:9- opening of fifth seal is quite clear. John is witnessing such things as a testimony of what will yet transpire in the future. So, do you still willingly take what he sees and describes, as metaphorical when are scenes given him to happen in Heaven in the future? What have you to say then, of all past Prophecies of God given in the Old Test. that happened exactly as described to this point? Metaphorical as well?

Note- If so, you must think Christ is a literal door as He called Himself in a description of coming only thru Him by faith, that we must grab the door knob and open to enter, in order to be saved?

Forgive me Drew, but believe it is you who needs to learn how to read gramatical in order to understand God's Word correctly. It seems apparent you have trouble recognizing plain trigger words that give clear meaning and understanding to Scriptures.

When a person cannot see plain statements like- "(she died)", "eternal fire", "I saw.... the souls of them that were slain", "and they cried with a loud voice", "white robes were given unto every one of them", "and it was said unto them, that they should rest yet alittle season", Jesus walked thru a locked door and was mistaken by the Disicples as a "spirit" (being).

The descriptions are given plainly and cannot be mistaken for anything else but what they literally describe. Thus, if taken for anything else outside of that, it is not of God. What was literally described, happened as described, there is no guess work or "interpretation" needed.

Question for yas- If I had seen a girl go running down the driveway here and I told you, " a little girl just flew down the driveway." Would you then spiritualize that by believing she had wings on her back or feet to actually "fly" her down the driveway?

Think about it Drew.

God Bless!!
 
Christian Commando said:
Gen 35:18-

You claimed, what she said, could've been before she died? Sorry, but way off- notice the wording-

"as her soul was departing (for she died)" She was dead my friend. No doubt. A human soul does not depart from thier body unless the phys. body has ceased to function- (died). Therefore, your assumption she could've said this while still alive is unfounded.
The weight of the evidence and proper interpretation of grammar works against your claim.

Here is the text in the version you posted:

And it came to pass, as her soul was in departing, (for she died), that she called his name Benoni: but his father called him Benjamin.

You are simply not justified to conclude that the woman's body had already died by the time her soul departs. You are trying to use the past tense of "for she died" to make this work, but this is not the correct reading at all. The writer is referring to a past event, that's all. The writer is merely establishing a context in which it makes sense to talk of her soul departing - and this context is that she died.

Let's suppose that I write the folllowing:

"As Fred's soul was departing (for he died), Fred yelled out the name of his dog"

This obviously does not mean to suggest that Fred was already dead when his soul left his body. It is merely giving a causal explanation for the fact of the departure of Fred's soul - namely that he died.

This text cannot be used to support the notion that a consciousness bearing soul or spirit lives on once the body has died.
 
Luke 24:36-39

While they were still talking about this, Jesus himself stood among them and said to them, "Peace be with you."
They were startled and frightened, thinking they saw a ghost. He said to them, "Why are you troubled, and why do doubts rise in your minds? Look at my hands and my feet. It is I myself! Touch me and see; a ghost does not have flesh and bones, as you see I have


Christian Commando said:
Of course Jesus is doing that, yet notice that He had passed thru a solid door without opening it. A normal human cannot do so without opening it first. Thus is why, the Disciples first thought Christ to be a "spirit". Jesus had to prove to the disciples He had been ressurrected, so thats natural to assume He would have to prove that.

Yet, keep in mind, the women who went to the tomb to "do thier thing" after the Sabbath, did not recognize Christ who was standing in plain site nearby either, until He spoke to them. Jesus only showed It to the degree for the others to understand how they would be after ressurrection and Glorifying of thier dead bodies and joined to thier spirits once more.

But to the point- tho Christ was ressurrected and Glorified, being mistaken at first as a "spirit", this plainly proves, spirit bodies do exist for man and that Rev. 6:9, and Rev. 20:4 prove, John was seeing actual spirit bodies with an intellect- (6:9), speaking, experiencing emotions, and able to wear a type of spiritual clothing.
When the people see Jesus, they indeed see something - a disembodied spirit is arguably not something that one sees. Jesus was raised bodily - a different kind of body -but a body nonetheless. You are arguing that since the people think that they were seeing a "talking spirit" that such talking spirits in fact exist.

This logic simply does not work. I see something moving in the woods and exclaim "there goes a unicorn". Does this prove that unicorns exist?: Of course not, it merely proves that I believe that unicorns exist.

This text does nothing at all to support the notion that there exists a spirit / soul that bears the property of consciousness.
 
Christian Commando said:
Jude 1:7-

You said it does not show "present tense" in that Scripture? I beg to differ on that. Again, notice the wording my friend-

"suffering the vengence of eternal fire". Notice the words- "eternal fire". This clearly shows, what those people are suffering is "eternal"- (eternal fire). Unquenched, therefore, still going on since it had started.
Not true. The text states that the fire is eternal, not the people. You are not being true to the wording. Let's say that I build a fire that lasts, say 3 hours, and throw pieces of wood into it. Each piece of wood burns away to nothing in 10 minutes.

If someone writes: "those pieces of wood suffered the vengeance of a three hour fire", this does not, of course, mean that the individual pieces of wood each burned for three hours - they obviously burned for 10 minutes.

Same thing re Jude 7: the fire is eternal - the people that were tossed into it have been consumed. That is what fire does - it destroys things, it does not preserve them.
 
quote by Drew:
The weight of the evidence and proper interpretation of grammar works against your claim.

Here is the text in the version you posted:

And it came to pass, as her soul was in departing, (for she died), that she called his name Benoni: but his father called him Benjamin.

You are simply not justified to conclude that the woman's body had already died by the time her soul departs. You are trying to use the past tense of "for she died" to make this work, but this is not the correct reading at all. The writer is referring to a past event, that's all. The writer is merely establishing a context in which it makes sense to talk of her soul departing - and this context is that she died.

Let's suppose that I write the folllowing:

"As Fred's soul was departing (for he died), Fred yelled out the name of his dog"

This obviously does not mean to suggest that Fred was already dead when his soul left his body. It is merely giving a causal explanation for the fact of the departure of Fred's soul - namely that he died.

This text cannot be used to support the notion that a consciousness bearing soul or spirit lives on once the body has died.

I agree with this. The very plain and simple reading of the verse itself is against what CC is purposing. How did she name her son ‘Benoni’ if she was already dead? Apparently as she was fading from consciousness, she uttered her last words and then died. Otherwise, she would have already lost control of her vocal cords and mouth and not been able to speak anything.

I am still curious as to how you will deal with the verses I gave you though. I remain open to your view but you’re going to show me how those fit into the scenario you allege to be true.
I found another one in regard to the destruction of the old heaven and earth, which is somewhat off topic here, btw (oops )… maybe we should start a new thread? This one is complicated enough. :crazyeyes:

Hebrews 1
10And, You, Lord, in the beginning had laid the foundation of the earth; and the heavens are the works of your hands:
11They shall perish; but you remain; and they all shall wax old as does a garment;
12And as a vesture shall you fold them up, and they shall be changed: but you are the same, and your years shall not fail.
 
unred typo said:
[I am still curious as to how you will deal with the verses I gave you though. I remain open to your view but you’re going to show me how those fit into the scenario you allege to be true.
My unconsidered response is that these texts do not really mean what they seem to mean. I hope to try to make a case, but do not have the time right now.

However, I freely admit that I come to those texts (the ones you list) having already been rather convinced that there is a recurrent theme in the Scriptures: God "vindcates and transforms", He does not "destroy and replace". I see God as vindicating and transforming Jesus (and us through Him) as well as Israel (in way that is too lengthy to explain - although you may have a sense of my view on this from some other posts).

So I think that God will vindicate and transform creation too, not destroy and replace it. I admit that I have no immediate response to the texts you post - they are indeed challenging to this view of mine.

I would also point out other "metaphors" that the Scriptures use to describe "future world":

1. Seeds and harvest
2. Birth pangs (Romans 8)

To me, these suggest that the new will "spring out of the old" in a way that both transforms and yet also preserves an imprint of the former world.
 
Thank you so much for your responces, but still believe you are wrong. Particularly in the example you used in responce to my Scriptural reference of Christ showing up after ressurrection before the Disciples.

Knowing you stated- if I seen something move in the forest", which could be undistinguishable by your wording, that is not a good example, for Jessu came up right next to them and they were startled. He was in plain sight, where your example could mean you saw a "flash" movement, or only a bit of whatever was there, etc.

Try giving an example that fits to the context we are speaking of here, that I may possibly understand better where you come from in your stance.

While I may understand some of where you are coming from, from studying the past religious Leader's teachings Christ worked against, thats why I disagree with yours.

But, you also hadn't answered the last part of my responce to you.

But, I appreciate your willingness to discuss this topic. Thank you

God Bless!!
 
Christian Commando said:
Hey everyone-

So, Biblical evidence is needed, ok- Lets get started -

1- Gen. 1:27-29- Proof God "created the spirit-soul- (spirit and spiritual intellect- "personality)" first before He "makes" the body's of Adam and Eve- 2:7- Adam, vs 21-22- Eve.

2- God declares, "To be absent from the body, is to be present with the Lord. ("With" the Lord- (our spirit), not "in" the Lord- (Breath of God).

3- Jesus declared to repentant thief on the cross- "Today, thou shalt be with Me in Paradise". How could the thief be there with Christ, if only the "Breath of God" at physical death?

4- Christ declares- "Ye do err, for man shall be as the Angels are". This was pertaining to a marriage of a woman to 7 brothers, which she'd be married to after physical death.

5- Look at Rev.6:9-11 for the (spirit-souls) who've already died and are with God in Heaven. They have an intellect- 10, spirit bodies, 11.

God is very clear on this subject.

Now, as to King Saul's stupidity in searching out that witch to gain future information, how can Samuels" appaearance even be considered close to representing christ's transfiguration?

The fact is, God allowed Samuel's spirit to leave aradise long enough to appear before Saul and chew him out for his going against God. Question that? Look in the Mew Test where the Old Test Patriarchs are mentioned. Saul is not listed ith them.

God chose Saul, yet Saul himself, chose to go against God's Word and even God Himself in warnings. Saul wouldn't listen, so God chastized Saul by letting Sameul come and lay into him for that. Yes, ist out of norm. for the situation called for extreme measures. Because of that, Saul died young and was lost to god in Hell for his transgressions.

This certainly is not a representation of Christ's transfiguration. Look at the decription of the transfiguration and look at Sameul's appearance, not the same.

God Bless!!

MY RESPONSE, By the numbers:

1) In the KJV, Gen 1:27, it says "So God created man in his own image...." A general statement. Then the details are given in Gen. 2:7 "And the Lord God formed man of the dust of the ground, and breathed into his nostrils the breath of life: and man became a living soul."
To say that God creates the spirit/soul first before he makes the body is adding to the Word of God something that isn't there.

We live as we breathe. All air breathing animals live because it is the breath of the spirit of God.
Concerning Noah's flood: Gen.6:17 "I am going to....destroy all life under the heavens, every creature that has the breath of life in it."
Gen 7:22 "All in whose nostrils was the breath (neshamah-Heb) of the spirit (ruach) of life, of all that was on the dry land died." And there are other verses.

Our spirit, our life force, if you will, is said to be being formed in us: Zech. 12:1 "...the Lord which stretcheth forth the heavens, and layeth the foundation of earth, and formeth the spirit of man within him." It is a gift of God, as is our life.

When we die, our spirit is said to "return unto God who gave it." Eccl. 12:7. I understand this to mean when we expire, our life returns to God who gave it. It is not living on eternally.

2) Well brother, this quotation from 2 Cor. 5:8 is probably misquoted more than any other verse.
From the KJV, "WE ARE CONFIDENT, I SAY, AND WILLING RATHER TO BE ABSENT FROM THE BODY, AND TO BE PRESENT WITH THE LORD."
NOTICE what Paul says: He is willing rather..., because that was his hope, that he wouldn't die, but be alive to meet the Lord in the air.
He wrote specifically in his first letter to the Corinthian church, chapt. 15:51ff, that the dead in Christ will put on incorruption, and the alive will be made immortal.....when? not at death...at the Lord's catching us up together to meet Him in the air.
Study the whole context, starting at 5:1. "naked", vs. 3, would be unclothed, or dead, to stay with the figure; also in vs. 4, the figure Paul uses for death is "unclothed."

3) The promise to the thief on the cross appears to say that that day, the thief would be with Jesus in Paradise.
Let's look at it. If it were true, then Jesus wouldn't be in the tomb ("the heart of the earth") three days and nights. And Jesus words that he must die but be raised up the third day are false!

Or, would your make Jesus' tomb, "paradise," and the thief joined him there? Nonsense, isn't it?

To clarify this, one must understand that the original languages, Hebrew, Aramaic, and Greek had no punctuation and were all capitals. All punctuation was added years later by translators, according to their interpretation.
Putting the comma after "Verily I say unto thee" is someones interpretation. It so happens that " I tell you today" is a Hebraism to show strong emphasis on the seriousness of the subject.
See Deut. 5:1; 6:6; 7:11; 8:1,11,19; 9:1,3; 10:13 etc.

Let's look at what the thief asked Jesus. He said "Lord remember me when you come in your kingdom." RSV. So, when Jesus comes, returns to establish his kingdom, he will remember the thief. For then, Jerusalem and Israel will be gloriously restored and will become like the paradise of Eden. See Psa.67:4,6; 72:6,7,16,17; Isa. 4:2; 30:23,24; 35:1,2,5,6; 41:18,20 etc,

In the originals, the article "the" was dropped from most translations before "paradise". Jesus more literally said, "Truly I say unto thee today, thou shall be with me in the paradise."

All for now, more later, Bick
 
I think that many people simply cannot conceive of how a spirit could exist and yet not be the bearer of consciousness. Yet I believe that this is how God has put together the world - while humans do have a spirit that returns to God, there is no evidence that this spirit actually has the property of bearing consciousness.

And there is no conceptual necessity either. Neither a light bulb nor electricity give off light. But when put together, they do. In the same way, I believe that consciousness only arises when God breathes "spirit" into dust.

Bick, do you agree with the above?
 
Bick said:
3) ...If it were true, then Jesus wouldn't be in the tomb ("the heart of the earth") three days and nights. And Jesus words that he must die but be raised up the third day are false!
Not at all. I suggest you look up the use of hades in the NT and let us know what you find.
 
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