How can there be a soul?

[Free]

This certainly is not a representation of Christ's transfiguration. Look at the decription of the transfiguration and look at Sameul's appearance, not the same.

This is what I was refering to:

Mat 17:1 And after six days Jesus took with him Peter and James, and John his brother, and led them up a high mountain by themselves.
Mat 17:2 And he was transfigured before them, and his face shone like the sun, and his clothes became white as light.
Mat 17:3 And behold, there appeared to them Moses and Elijah, talking with him.

 

[Drew]

Hey everyone-

So, Biblical evidence is needed, ok- Lets get started -

1- Gen. 1:27-29- Proof God "created the spirit-soul- (spirit and spiritual intellect- "personality)" first before He "makes" the body's of Adam and Eve- 2:7- Adam, vs 21-22- Eve.

I see nothing in Genesis 1:27-29 or 2:7 or 2:21-22 that suggests the existence of a conscious disembodied entity (soul / spirit) goes to heaven when a believer dies:

Here is 2:7 in the NASB:

Then the LORD God formed man of dust from the ground, and breathed into his nostrils the breath of life; and man became a living being.

Are you assuming that if a "sprit" is breathed into a body then that spirit has to bring the property of consciousness into the integrated entity? That would be an assumption that needs to be justified since there are plenty of example where A and B get put together to create C, with a result that C has a property that neither A nor B has in isolation. Example: Consider this "variant" of the above scriptural verse:

"Fred turned on the switch, thereby injecting the elecricity (A) into the light bulb (B) and the result was a thing (C) that give off light."

Neither electricity nor a light bulb give off light as separate things - it is only when they are brought together when the property of "giving off light" flowers into existence.

You need to explain why this is not the case with body and spirit - why the spirit has to have the property of conciousness as a thing unto itelf.

2- God declares, "To be absent from the body, is to be present with the Lord. ("With" the Lord- (our spirit), not "in" the Lord- (Breath of God).

What version states "To be absent from the body, is to be present with the Lord"? Here are three versions that do not clearly equate being absent from the body and being present with the Lord?

NIV
We are confident, I say, and would prefer to be away from the body and at home with the Lord

NASB
we are of good courage, I say, and prefer rather to be absent from the body and to be at home with the Lord

KJV
We are confident, I say, and willing rather to be absent from the body, and to be present with the Lord.

None of the above have the strong sense of equating the absence from the body as is present in your version: "To be absent from the body, is to be present with the Lord.

Which version expresses this statement in the way that you have described?

The careful reader, who is open to considering other interpretations of the NIV, NASB, and KJV versions will note that those renderings do not force us to conclude that being absent from the body requires that we can only be in one place - present with the Lord.

Paul may be speaking in terms of what it is like for him, as a subject of experience, to die. The statement is still valid in the context of intepretation where the human person "sleeps" for many years between physical death and resurrection. That such "what things will seem like to me" statements are in common use is clear from the following example:

"I got hit in the head with the baseball bat and then I saw the doctors and nurses looking down at me as I lay in a hospital bed."

This statement is entirely consistent with a factual state of affairs where I was unconscious for several hours. I am not saying that one second after being hit, I was in the hospital bed.

 

[unred typo]

Drew, there’s a lot of scripture on this and it all seems to fit well with the body being a temporary habitation of the human intellect and will and the combination of them comprising the living soul where the life in the blood animates the body and the spirit of man animates the mind and will. I’m not sure how all the parts fit together but I am not my body nor am I just God’s breath though it is what has given me the life force, both in my body and soul.

The Bible does express the idea that the spirit goes into an unconscious state at our physical death and refers to this state as ‘sleeping in Jesus’ but it also appears that, like physical sleep, a person is in existence and doesn’t just disintegrate like the light in a bulb when the electricity is turned off. We see the souls of those that were martyred for Christ became restless and wanted to know how much longer they would have to wait to be avenged in Revelation. Will we dream in the sleep of death? Will we toss and turn while our previous life on earth is reviewed in our long nightmares? I don’t know.

Rev.6:9-11
9And when he had opened the fifth seal, I saw under the altar the souls of them that were slain for the word of God, and for the testimony which they held:
10And they cried with a loud voice, saying, How long, O Lord, holy and true, dost thou not judge and avenge our blood on them that dwell on the earth?
11And white robes were given unto every one of them; and it was said unto them, that they should rest yet for a little season, until their fellow servants also and their brethren, that should be killed as they were, should be fulfilled.

While this is also a prophetic vision expressed in symbolic language, the symbolic does convey the actual state of souls being impatiently waiting somewhere, not just being dissolved.

2 Corinthians 5
1For we know that if our earthly house of this tabernacle were dissolved, we have a building of God, an house not made with hands, eternal in the heavens.
2For in this we groan, earnestly desiring to be clothed upon with our house which is from heaven:
3If so be that being clothed we shall not be found naked.
4For we that are in this tabernacle do groan, being burdened: not for that we would be unclothed, but clothed upon, that mortality might be swallowed up of life.

In this verse, we have the disintegration of the body back into dust, but we are still groaning and waiting to be clothed with a new house. This reminds me of the evil spirits who are said to desire to inhabit human bodies, or any body even an animal rather than to be wandering about seeking rest and not finding it.

There is also the expression of body, soul and spirit that Paul prays of believers that all three would be preserved blameless until the coming of the Lord. This is quite fascinating and mysterious and still hard for me to get a handle on. I probably have some personal desires that I don’t want to let go of in my beliefs here so it will remain a mystery until I can seek the entire unvarnished truth. I want to believe that my father is somewhere up above watching down, for instance. It may be true or it may be a stumbling block to my understanding the truth.

 

[Vic C.]

The Bible does express the idea that the spirit goes into an unconscious state at our physical death and refers to this state as ‘sleeping in Jesus’ but it also appears that, like physical sleep, a person is in existence and doesn’t just disintegrate like the light in a bulb when the electricity is turned off.

We can only come to that conclusion if we rely solely on the interchangeability of the words soul and spirit. We however do have verse that tell us specifically it's the spirit that returns to God, Who gave it. (Ecclesiastes 12:7)

Whether or not the idea that spirit possesses the essence of the being it inhabited is what's debatable. I believe it's the soul and not the spirit that fits this idea better. Compare that with verses that say the life of the flesh is in the blood. (Leviticus 17:11, Revelation 6:9)

We see the souls of those that were martyred for Christ became restless and wanted to know how much longer they would have to wait to be avenged in Revelation. Will we dream in the sleep of death? Will we toss and turn while our previous life on earth is reviewed in our long nightmares? I don’t know.

Neither do I, considering Revelation is highly symbolic and not usually used to formulate doctrine. So, a mystery of sorts, it remains.

 

[handy]

Drew,

I noticed that you only dealt with one of the verses Commando shared. I'd like to see your take on a few of the others.

To me, the best way to deal with a subject like this is to frame the verse that can be interpreted in multiple ways, such as Genesis 2:7 with those that can really have only one logical meaning. True a lot of the verses, especially OT verses can be argued that there is no separate soul.

But, let's try to apply this idea, of there being no afterlife until the new earth, with these accounts that Commando shared:

The Transfiguration when Moses and Elijah came to Jesus. The verbage of the texts that record this do not indicate that this was a vision or a dream, but Moses and Elijah actually came and were speaking with Christ regarding His crucifixion. See Luke 9:28-36

The cross, when Jesus told the thief, "Today, you will be with Me in Paradise." Luke 23:43

And, I wouldn't spiritualize the Revelations 6 account of the souls 'under the alter' too much. True, one should never build doctrine out of Revelations, but nonetheless, there isn't any particular reason why we shouldn't take the account for exactly what John said it was, an event taking place in heaven that he was shown. He was shown this event for a reason, the reason being that those who die as martyrs do have the hope that their deaths will not be in vain, and that they will be with the Lord.

I know that you and I have kicked this topic around a bit, and I'd like to kick it around a bit more. My position is that we will not 'go to heaven' when we die, but rather are in Paradise, which I believe to be the Garden of Eden. However, I see this to be pretty much immediate upon our death. I don't think we enter into a state of suspended animation so to speak until the resurrection.

And, while the account of Lazarus and the dead man may indeed be just a Parable, I don't think that Jesus would have shared this particular parable if it contained false doctrine. Jesus wasn't exactly one to teach truth by using an out and out lie.

Of these texts, the one that I think is key is what Jesus said on the cross to the dying man. They were both dying. It's inconcievable to me that Jesus would say something that wasn't a clear statement of fact at that time. Neither one of them were in the mood for parables or hidden meanings.

Your thoughts on Luke 23?

 

[Drew]

Drew, there’s a lot of scripture on this and it all seems to fit well with the body being a temporary habitation of the human intellect and will and the combination of them comprising the living soul where the life in the blood animates the body and the spirit of man animates the mind and will. I’m not sure how all the parts fit together but I am not my body nor am I just God’s breath though it is what has given me the life force, both in my body and soul.

I agree with you but will underscore an assumption that many people make - that the soul or the spirit has to be the bearer of the property of consciousness. In other words, people ignore the possiblity that, like the light from the bulb, consciousness might only exist when spirit and body are brought together. And I think that this is what the Scriptures teach, through texts like 1 Cor 15:22-23 and the myriad of texts that refer to death as sleep. The distinguishing feature of sleep is unconsciousness. This is powerful evidence that we are unconscious until called forth at the return of Jesus.

The Bible does express the idea that the spirit goes into an unconscious state at our physical death and refers to this state as ‘sleeping in Jesus’

Of course I agree. Others conveniently will redefine "sleep" as a state where the body is dead but the consciousness is in full flower of experience and wonderment in Heaven. Does that sound like sleep? I should be so lucky to have sleep like that. For me, sleep is generally a "blank" period with no experiential content whatsoever, except the occasional muddled and dim dream.

but it also appears that, like physical sleep, a person is in existence and doesn’t just disintegrate like the light in a bulb when the electricity is turned off.

Again I do indeed agree that the person is still "in existence" - although I think that the best metaphor for this is the following: God holds the "information" that specifies me as "me" and you as "you" in His mind and uses that knowledge to resurrect us.

I think that Rev 6:9-11 is an allegory and not any kind of statement of the state of people in the afterlife. It is hard to take this text literally if one conceives of disembodied souls (or even embodied souls for that matter) all packed under a physical altar.

2 Corinthians 5
1For we know that if our earthly house of this tabernacle were dissolved, we have a building of God, an house not made with hands, eternal in the heavens.
2For in this we groan, earnestly desiring to be clothed upon with our house which is from heaven:
3If so be that being clothed we shall not be found naked.
4For we that are in this tabernacle do groan, being burdened: not for that we would be unclothed, but clothed upon, that mortality might be swallowed up of life.

In this verse, we have the disintegration of the body back into dust, but we are still groaning and waiting to be clothed with a new house.

I do not agree with your interpretation here. I think that the groaning takes place now - in our present fallen bodies. In fact, I think verse 4 makes this clear - it is in our present embodied state that we groan.

In fact, Paul makes it clear that he does not want to found naked - without a body of some sort. I see no evidence that Paul thinks that this disembodied state will ever actually come to pass.

 

[unred typo]

quote by Drew on Mon Oct 01, 2007 10:30 am
Again I do indeed agree that the person is still "in existence" - although I think that the best metaphor for this is the following: God holds the "information" that specifies me as "me" and you as "you" in His mind and uses that knowledge to resurrect us.

The qualities that make a person, a person, are more than just information about the person, even specific genetic codes that exactly mirror their codes and all attributes. I might agree that a person is in a kind of state of suspended animation, even in an unconscious state, except for the parable of the rich man and Lazarus that imply a sort of tortured soul who has no relief, which makes me again think of the evil spirits who were so desperate to inhabit physical beings. I suggest that the dead in Christ who have lost their physical mortal bodies are in a state of sleep or semi consciousness, awaiting their new ‘fire impenetrable’ indestructible bodies that they will be given at the return of Christ so they can join him in the triumphant entrance into New Jerusalem. IOW, they are not disembodied, but inhabit the body of Christ, just as in the OT, the spirits of the righteous dead 'inhabited' a body referred to as 'Abraham's bosom.'

To say that “God holds the "information" that specifies me as "me" and you as "you" in His mind and uses that knowledge to resurrect us†is no more than God using a recipe for an exact duplicate clone of who we were and not actually we ourselves.

quote by Drew:
I think that Rev 6:9-11 is an allegory and not any kind of statement of the state of people in the afterlife. It is hard to take this text literally if one conceives of disembodied souls (or even embodied souls for that matter) all packed under a physical altar.

It’s hard to imagine a man inhabited by a legion of demons either so the spiritual man is somewhat different than the physical soul.

quote by Drew:
I do not agree with your interpretation here. I think that the groaning takes place now - in our present fallen bodies. In fact, I think verse 4 makes this clear - it is in our present embodied state that we groan.

In fact, Paul makes it clear that he does not want to found naked - without a body of some sort. I see no evidence that Paul thinks that this disembodied state will ever actually come to pass.

LOL. Can I agree to disagree with myself? Yes, we are groaning now. What was I thinking? And you have picked up on the same feeling I have about the nakedness of a spirit without a physical body being an uncomfortable, even torturous existence. Maybe it is as the phantom pain that one experiences when they have an ‘itch’ or ‘pain’ in an amputated limb?

 

[Christian Commando]

ok, how about more clarification then?

A- God declares "He" is a spirit in His Word.

A-1- When Moses wanted to see God himself, God took him up on that mountain, but protected Moses from seeing His- "God's" Face, as the Glory of It would've destroyed Moses. But, God "walked" by Moses, then took His- (God's) "Hand" from Moses' eyes to let him see God from the back, as He passed by.

B- God is shown and spoken of several times, as "sitting" on a Throne.

C- Jesus Christ is called- "God in the flesh", when He was here.

C-1- Christ's "Spirit", descended to Hell for 3 days and nites, suffering under the weight of all sins.

D- Christ declares "ye do err, for man shall be as the Angels are"- (spirit body beings) check out Daniel, Abraham, Lot, among many more.

E- Check out the Parable of Christ about the richman and Lazarus. The richman lifted up his eyes from Hell- (after he died). He spoke to Abraham for help from Lazarus to cool his torment.

F- Eccles. 12:6-7- spirit bonded to phys. body by a "silvery cord"

G- "To be absent from the body, and present "with"-(not "in") the Lord.

It appears to have been assumed I believe in only a "soul" or "Breath of God, but, the original Hebrew meaning of the word for "Breathed" is "spoken". So, God actual "spoke" life into Adam's nostrils.

The above examples, as well as earlier ones I gave, prove God is a "Spirit Being", and thus, when "created" man in His Image and His Likeness, He "created"- (brought forth something from nothing), man's spirit body and soul- (intellect) first in Genesis Chapter 1, then "made"- (combine that which already exists into something else), Adam's phys. body first, then Eve's phys. body from Adam's later.

Check these out as well-

1- God declares He knew us before formed in the belly.

2- He knew us before we were born.

So, if He could know that, how could He have known us before formed in the belly, if is "His Breath" is not "Breathed" into a human fetus until its concieved?

Let us please stay in context to God here. When spiritualizing Scriptures that are not mean't to be, it never makes sense, when compared to other Scriptures that do not back them up, but contradict them instead. Thus, if want to spiritualize one or more Scriptures where we are not to, then all the rest must be done that way, which blows all God's original Truths right out the window.

Besides, as Christ declared at phys. death, man will be as angels are, how can you say man does not have a spirit, when God shows- "Micheal the ArchAngel fought against Satan and his followers, or disputed with Satan over Moses' body, of they do not have spirit bodies?

Please forgive me if appears am trying to push my beliefs on any of you. I'm not. But God declares to take His Word precept upon precept, line upon line.. Repeating it, so we'd know to take His Word to mean literally what It says, unless God provides another meaning for It. Why?

Because, God also declares that even an unsaved- (Natural man), can understand the literal meaning of God's Word. It's the spiritual understanding they cannot, without the Holy Spirit to show them that. Which is also why God declares unless we recieve the "enlightenment" of the Holy Spirit, we'd never have understood the Gospel to recieve Salvation either.

I pray this helps-

God Bless!!

 

[unred typo]

quote by Christian Commando on Tue Oct 02, 2007 12:10 am

1- God declares He knew us before formed in the belly.

2- He knew us before we were born.

So, if He could know that, how could He have known us before formed in the belly, if is "His Breath" is not "Breathed" into a human fetus until its concieved?

I think we are known genetically by the combination of the traits outlined in our DNA before we actually began to be formed in the belly, before the cells begin to divide and multiply as per instructions of the genetic code contained in the sperm and/or egg cell, as soon as the one of millions of sperms actually fertilizes the egg. This was more of a mystery before our ‘knowledge was increased’ about the process. This was never a mystery to God, however, and he knew what we were going to look like, and what kind of personality and other traits that the combination of our parents would be like, just by reading the codes.

So this began at conception which is technically before we were formed ‘in the belly’ and before we were born, (but not at the foundation of the world, as some have mistakenly read in to the verses about Christ and God’s plans for those who are placed ‘in Christ,’ when they are born of the Spirit. )

quote by Christian Commando:
Please forgive me if appears am trying to push my beliefs on any of you. I'm not. But God declares to take His Word precept upon precept, line upon line.. Repeating it, so we'd know to take His Word to mean literally what It says, unless God provides another meaning for It. Why?

Because, God also declares that even an unsaved- (Natural man), can understand the literal meaning of God's Word. It's the spiritual understanding they cannot, without the Holy Spirit to show them that. Which is also why God declares unless we recieve the "enlightenment" of the Holy Spirit, we'd never have understood the Gospel to recieve Salvation either.

I pray this helps-

God Bless!!

You are as entitled to push your beliefs around here as much as anyone else. If they aren’t worth pushing, why would you believe them? :wink:

That is not to say we are all going to agree. For the most part, I think I do, but I would like to make a quick comment on this idea about not understanding the meaning of God’s words. I believe the idea is taken from a couple of places and fused into one faulty doctrine. Jesus told Nicodemas that unless one was born of the Spirit, he couldn’t ‘see’ the kingdom of God and Paul said that the ‘natural man’ receives not the things of the Spirit of God because they are foolishness unto him and that they are spiritually discerned.

I believe Jesus meant that we would not actually see the streets of gold or the heavenly abode of the angels and God himself unless we are born from above, not that we can’t understand the word of God. There would be no point in giving us an indiscernible message. We see at Pentecost that God’s intention is for everyone to hear and understand.

The point that Paul is making is that if you are completely consumed with the desires of the flesh, you are a ‘natural man.’ If your interests are only the care and feeding of your own selfish pig, you are not going to have any use for the message of the gospel; to love one another sacrificially and to crucify the flesh daily. It is going to sound stupid to the one who only thinks about #1. It is not that he can’t understand, but that it is contrary to his life’s aim of pleasing himself above everyone else. He can change the way he is and make a decision to follow Christ if he ever takes time from his self indulgence to consider the consequences. If you disagree, we should start another thread and not mess up this one, btw.

Our views on the soul and spirit of man are similar I believe. That’s one area that I have a rather commonly held belief. Which is actually abnormal for me. :wink:

 

[Drew]

On the matter of Samuel and Moses and Elijah all making appearances: Assuming that one discounts the vision explanation (and I can see that the vision explanation has a problem in that Samuel "complains" about being disturbed), I think one is denying a lot of other Scripture if one imagines that these people were in a conscious disembodied state - either in Heaven or the "good part" of Hades before and after they made their appearances. I think a more scriptural position is that they were "sleeping" - unconscious - when they were summoned to appear and that they resumed their "sleep" afterwards.

Note that Samuel, as unred has pointed out says "that Saul has disturbed him, as if he was asleep and rudely awoken and sent to honor Saul’s request for his appearance". This is not proof for my position but it is something to think about.

I think we need to look at the wider Biblical picture on the one hand and not re-define words on other:

1. There are many scriptural references to the fact that the dead "sleep". I think we need to honour what I consider to be the self-evident distinguishing characteristic of sleep - lack of consciousness. It seems eminently bizarre that so many writers in the OT and the NT would use this term to refer to a state where the essence of the person - their soul / spirit - is actually in a fully conscious state in Heaven (or somewhere else).

2. We have statements like Solomon's declaration that "the dead know nothing" and the Psalmists claim that, at death, the thoughts of men perish. To be blunt, people deal with these texts by simply deforming the nominal sense of what it means to "know nothing" and to "perish" to mean something completely different. One can prove almost anything if one mangles the nominal sense of words enough.

3. Whenever statements like "the dead will be made alive at the return of Christ" (1 Cor 15:22-23) appear, people argue that this the "thing" that is made alive is actually the body and that the soul / spirit is already alive in Heaven. There are many other texts where the "traditionalist" inserts this kind of distinction into the text, even though it is obviously not there. So we get an account of Lazarus' death that is not simply "Lazarus dies" (which is what the text says), but rather Lazarus' body dies. There are many other examples like this.

4. I re-state that ours is a culture steeped in Platonic ideas - we come to the Scriptures already believing that the necessary structure of the human person is one in which a consciousness-bearing soul / spirit is housed inside a physical body. I claim that studies of cultural history will show that the Hebrews never believed this idea. Either way, it is clear that other structures are possible. I think the correct one is basically this: Man is constituted of dust that is "animated" by a spirit that comes from God. That spirit is not the bearer of consciousness, but when breathed into a body, consciousness then comes into existence:

Gen 2:7
the LORD God formed the man from the dust of the ground and breathed into his nostrils the breath of life, and the man became a living being.

 

[Drew]

The qualities that make a person, a person, are more than just information about the person, even specific genetic codes that exactly mirror their codes and all attributes. I might agree that a person is in a kind of state of suspended animation, even in an unconscious state........I suggest that the dead in Christ who have lost their physical mortal bodies are in a state of sleep or semi consciousness, awaiting their new ‘fire impenetrable’ indestructible bodies that they will be given at the return of Christ so they can join him in the triumphant entrance into New Jerusalem.

Well I think that others will need to wait even longer for you and I to disagree - I entirely agree with the above and am not married to specific views about how we conceptualize this unconscious state.

 

[Drew]

C-1- Christ's "Spirit", descended to Hell for 3 days and nites, suffering under the weight of all sins.

Where, exactly, do the Scriptures say this - that Christ descended into hell and experienced the weight of sins while there?

I will counter with Jesus' own words from John 19:30:

When he had received the drink, Jesus said, "It is finished." With that, he bowed his head and gave up his spirit

I think that the payment for sin had been made at that point - the work of the Cross is finished.

But again, I always hear people talking about Jesus going into Hell. What Scriptures support this idea?

 

[DavidLee]

But again, I always hear people talking about Jesus going into Hell. What Scriptures support this idea?

Psalm 16:10-11
Ephesians 4:8-10 (this is the main one)
1 Peter 3:18-20

These are the ones I came across. Not really Hell though... The underworld I guess.

 

[Drew]

But again, I always hear people talking about Jesus going into Hell. What Scriptures support this idea?

Psalm 16:10-11
Ephesians 4:8-10 (this is the main one)
1 Peter 3:18-20

These are the ones I came across. Not really Hell though... The underworld I guess.

You acknowledge these texts are not about Hell. I will present them so that the reader can undertand that none of these texts suggest that Jesus went to hell. I totally agree that Jesus went to the grave. But the grave is not hell.

Here is Psalm 16:10-11

because you will not abandon me to the grave,
nor will you let your Holy One see decay.
You have made known to me the path of life;
you will fill me with joy in your presence,
with eternal pleasures at your right hand

There is, of course, no suggestion that Jesus spent three days in Hell. The grave is not the same thing as Hell.

Here is Ephesians 4:8-10

This is why it says:
"When he ascended on high,
he led captives in his train
And gave gifts to men." 9(What does "he ascended" mean except that he also descended to the lower, earthly regions? 10He who descended is the very one who ascended higher than all the heavens, in order to fill the whole universe.

Again, no reference to Jesus being in hell.

Here is 1 Peter 3:18-20

For Christ died for sins once for all, the righteous for the unrighteous, to bring you to God. He was put to death in the body but made alive by the Spirit, through whom also he went and preached to the spirits in prison who disobeyed long ago when God waited patiently in the days of Noah while the ark was being built. In it only a few people, eight in all, were saved through water.

I am sure some of you will get a laugh out of how I suggest the "Jesus went to Hell" view can be ruled out as an interpretation of the above text. Jesus told the thief: "Today you will be with me in Paradise". This cannot be the case if Jesus went to Hell. That would mean, that in order to be truthful, Jesus would need to say "Today you will be with me in Hell".

I will not be surprised if some readers, familiar with my overall views about life after death, will think my argument in the para above creates an internal inconsistency in my overall view about life after death.

Bring it on........ :P

 

[DavidLee]

You acknowledge these texts are not about Hell. I will present them so that the reader can undertand that none of these texts suggest that Jesus went to hell. I totally agree that Jesus went to the grave. But the grave is not hell.

You asked where the idea came from. Hell is curently unoccupied.
I believe He descended into Sheol while His body lay in the tomb.

Jesus told the thief: "Today you will be with me in Paradise". This cannot be the case if Jesus went to Hell. That would mean, that in order to be truthful, Jesus would need to say "Today you will be with me in Hell".

Did Jesus tell a lie?
We are told that a day is like a thousand years and a thousand years is like a day. If God is outside time (and He would have to be, right?) then today becomes forever more. The text seems to say rather emphatically that Jesus did not (from our perspective) go to Heaven at His death.
Your thoughts?

 

[Free]

I am sure some of you will get a laugh out of how I suggest the "Jesus went to Hell" view can be ruled out as an interpretation of the above text. Jesus told the thief: "Today you will be with me in Paradise". This cannot be the case if Jesus went to Hell. That would mean, that in order to be truthful, Jesus would need to say "Today you will be with me in Hell".

It is possible that Jesus was both in Paradise and "hell" - could have been the same day, could have been different days, could have been at the same time. But firstly, the term "hell" needs to be defined since three different words - two mainly - are translated as "hell".

 

[unred typo]

quote by DavidLee on Tue Oct 02, 2007 7:20 pm

Did Jesus tell a lie?
We are told that a day is like a thousand years and a thousand years is like a day. If God is outside time (and He would have to be, right?) then today becomes forever more. The text seems to say rather emphatically that Jesus did not (from our perspective) go to Heaven at His death.
Your thoughts?

Why would God have to be ‘outside of time’? In dog’s years, my dog is like 49 years old now. She’s not outside of time or something. Saying a day is like a thousand years and a thousand years is like a day, is really nothing more than saying God is not in a hurry and time is not of great importance to someone who literally has ‘forever’ to accomplish his purposes. It’s a perception thing. In God’s years, he can accomplish in one day what it would take us a thousand to do. And he can take a thousand years to do some things that we think should be done in our puny lifetimes. But this is off topic…the time discussion is here, where we’re exploring the idea in relation to election and predestination: viewtopic.php?f=14&t=29448&start=150&st=0&sk=t&sd=a

I have heard it explained that before the cross, there was no way the believers could enter heaven, because of the temporary nature of an animal sacrifice and the fact that the blood of sheep and goats could not remove sin. Then, before the way to heaven was made through the cross, the dead were taken to a holding area called Sheol, where the unrighteous were in torment, and the righteous were placed in a paradise place of comfortable rest called Abraham’s bosom and a great gulf was between them to separate the two parts. So in going to Sheol, Jesus could escort the thief to paradise. And then go on to preach to the spirits in prison. This sounds reasonable but I could be wrong. It happens and we hate that. :wink:

 

[handy]

I will not be surprised if some readers, familiar with my overall views about life after death, will think my argument in the para above creates an internal inconsistency in my overall view about life after death.

Bring it on........ :P

IT :smt079 (This is me, bringing It)

Seriously, I have been wondering for quite some time what your take is on the very clear statement of Jesus to the theif that he would be with Him in Paradise that day.

 

[DavidLee]

Why would God have to be ‘outside of time’? In dog’s years, my dog is like 49 years old now. She’s not outside of time or something. Saying a day is like a thousand years and a thousand years is like a day, is really nothing more than saying God is not in a hurry and time is not of great importance to someone who literally has ‘forever’ to accomplish his purposes. It’s a perception thing. In God’s years, he can accomplish in one day what it would take us a thousand to do. And he can take a thousand years to do some things that we think should be done in our puny lifetimes. But this is off topic…the time discussion is here, where we’re exploring the idea in relation to election and predestination: viewtopic.php?f=14&t=29448&start=150&st=0&sk=t&sd=a

You misunderstood me. Sorry, I should have explained myself better. You and your dog both exist in temporal, corporeal bodies. The passage of time matters to us. It does not matter to God. He has no beginning or end. It could also be stated as "He has all the time in the world", but it's not exactly true. He is outside of time. In Reveleation we are told twice (I think) that there will be no night anymore (thus one long day )
(I do not understand how this is off topic here but not in the thread about predestination.)

I have heard it explained that before the cross, there was no way the believers could enter heaven, because of the temporary nature of an animal sacrifice and the fact that the blood of sheep and goats could not remove sin. Then, before the way to heaven was made through the cross, the dead were taken to a holding area called Sheol, where the unrighteous were in torment, and the righteous were placed in a paradise place of comfortable rest called Abraham’s bosom and a great gulf was between them to separate the two parts. So in going to Sheol, Jesus could escort the thief to paradise. And then go on to preach to the spirits in prison. This sounds reasonable but I could be wrong. It happens and we hate that. :wink:

The problem is:
2 Corinthians 12:2-4 (English Standard Version)
"2I know a man in Christ who fourteen years ago was caught up to the third heavenâ€â€whether in the body or out of the body I do not know, God knows. 3And I know that this man was caught up into paradiseâ€â€whether in the body or out of the body I do not know, God knows 4and he heard things that cannot be told, which man may not utter."

Jesus did not say to the thief "you shall be with me in Sheol for a bit, then on we go to Heaven".
Lazarus was carried by the angles to Abraham's side(or bosom). I can find no reference to "Paradise" in the Old Testament so I think Sheol and Paradise are not the same place, but you could be right. I'm wrong so often I'm quite used to the feeling now. ;)

 

[unred typo]

quote by DavidLee on Wed Oct 03, 2007
You misunderstood me. Sorry, I should have explained myself better. You and your dog both exist in temporal, corporeal bodies. The passage of time matters to us. It does not matter to God. He has no beginning or end. It could also be stated as "He has all the time in the world", but it's not exactly true. He is outside of time. In Reveleation we are told twice (I think) that there will be no night anymore (thus one long day )
(I do not understand how this is off topic here but not in the thread about predestination.)

Forget the dog. It was confusing and irrelevant. What I said: “Saying a day is like a thousand years and a thousand years is like a day, is really nothing more than saying God is not in a hurry and time is not of great importance to someone who literally has ‘forever’ to accomplish his purposes. It’s a perception thing. In God’s years, he can accomplish in one day what it would take us a thousand to do. And he can take a thousand years to do some things that we think should be done in our puny lifetimes.†is more to the point and not so very different from what you said when you said, "He has all the time in the world".

I don’t go along with your next statement; “He is outside of time.†That’s not what the Bible says. If we were all blind and never saw the sun or moon again, time would still pass. I think the idea in heaven is time has no relevance since we will not get older physically or tired and need sleep time and there will be no appointments to keep or events to mark or look forward to since every day will be as wonderful as the last. Time will not matter to us then.

quote by DavidLee
The problem is:
2 Corinthians 12:2-4 (English Standard Version)
"2I know a man in Christ who fourteen years ago was caught up to the third heavenâ€â€whether in the body or out of the body I do not know, God knows. 3And I know that this man was caught up into paradiseâ€â€whether in the body or out of the body I do not know, God knows 4and he heard things that cannot be told, which man may not utter."

Jesus did not say to the thief "you shall be with me in Sheol for a bit, then on we go to Heaven".
Lazarus was carried by the angles to Abraham's side(or bosom). I can find no reference to "Paradise" in the Old Testament so I think Sheol and Paradise are not the same place, but you could be right. I'm wrong so often I'm quite used to the feeling now.

So he dropped him off in paradise first? On the first day of the week, Jesus told Mary not to touch him because he hadn’t ascended to the father yet.
John 20:16-18
16Jesus said unto her, Mary. She turned herself, and said unto him, Rabboni; which is to say, Master.
17Jesus said unto her, Touch me not; for I am not yet ascended to my Father: but go to my brethren, and say unto them, I ascend unto my Father, and your Father; and to my God, and your God.

I can’t prove what I wrote about paradise being part of Sheol so I’ll leave it at that. There isn’t a lot of scripture to glean answers from either. It won’t make a hill of beans difference to my theology. I know one place is wonderful and one place is wailing and gnashing of teeth. I don’t know where they are or how and when we will get there. It’s something we’ll know when we die. So you might be wrong that I might be right. I could be totally wrong. :wink: