How do Calvinists know, that they have eternal life ?

[Grubal Muruch]

Lutheran theology is more single predestination...that God chooses who is going to be saved, but not necessarily who will be in hell.

Because this is where free will does come in. Left to ourselves, we would never "choose" God...the Bible does teach that we are so prone to sin, so dead in our sins, it takes the Holy Spirit to awaken us to our need for salvation. As it states in Ephesians, God chose us, before the foundations of the world.

However, once we are opened to the gospel, once we are regenerated...we can then go back. We can indeed reject God's grace. This is where Lutherans and Calvinist part company. There is no "irresistible grace" in Lutheran theology. And, if grace is not irresistible...if one can reject God's offer of grace and turn away from Him...then there is no "double predestination".

If your speaking about, Ephesians 1:4---According as he hath chosen us in him before the foundation of the world, that we should be holy and without blame before him in love:

Our salvation is secured for us wholly and only by Christ's work on the cross...we can do nothing to effect our own salvation. But, those who are damned are damned because they reject Christ.

There can be no single predestination and irresistible grace...However, with irresistible grace there is, of necessity, double predestination.

I've never had a problem with predestination, it is clearly taught in a number of Scriptures. Where I parted company with the Calvinists was over the idea of irresistible grace. .

You said, "Lutheran theology is more single predestination...that God chooses who is going to be saved, but not necessarily who will be in hell. First of all, than who chooses the destination of the unbelievers ? God created the place we know ,as Hell. Therefore, He had He's reason to do so. Otherwise He would not have created it. And from a Biblical standpoint we know that the "unbelievers" end up there at some time. By God choosing whom He would save (The elect) He would have to have some place for the non-elect...He, according to Calvinistic belief, chose before the foundation of the world, who He would choose. Therefore, He "chose" the rest to be damned... By virtue of them being, not chosen, they were "chosen."

If your referring to Ephesians 1:4---According as he hath chosen us in him before the foundation of the world, that we should be holy and without blame before him in love: He (God) choose that "whosoever' comes to Christ believing, should be holy and without blame. Holy and without blame is for those who choose Christ AS Lord and Saviour. God did not choose who He chose that "whoever" came to Christ, (that they should be holy and without blame)

Once one has been "born again Spiritually" and has been indwelt/sealed by the Holy Spirit, he cannot lose his Salvation...

 

[Grubal Muruch]

No you do not see that I'm not a "Calvinist" you don't understand Calvin. A Calvinist did answer you. But, aside from that You don't need a Calvinist to answer you. You already have the answer, but your twisted on John Calvin.

Does Calvin teach,

>That men are "chosen" before the foundation of the world to be the "elect?"
>That men cannot resist this choice?
>That men cannot come to God apart from being a member of the chosen elect?

Are not these a part of Calvin's teachings,

Total depravity. This doesn't mean people are as bad as they can be. It means that sin is in every part of one's being, including the mind and will, so that a man cannot save himself.

U -- unconditional election. God chooses to save people unconditionally; that is, they are not chosen on the basis of their own merit.

L -- limited atonement. The sacrifice of Christ on the cross was for the purpose of saving the elect.

I -- irresistible grace. When God has chosen to save someone, He will.

P -- perseverence of the saints. Those people God chooses cannot lose their salvation; they will continue to believe. If they fall away, it will be only for a time.

Please show me where the confusion lies...

Also you wrote---God is available to all people. Salvation is possible for all people, and I believe God calls all people, but that not all will answer, or respond. That's the reason I thought you weren't a Calvinist. That doesn't sound like a Calvinist statement...

 

[reba]

I would think both sides of this very old argument know they have eternal life because the Bible says so.

 

[Gazelle]

When you say, "one isn't "born" a Calvinist." That statement "nullify's" the idea of Calvinistic belief. Due to the fact that, true Calvinists believe they were "chosen" from the foundation of the world to be "of the elect." Having brought that to light, would you still consider yourself, "a Calvinist ?"

Just because I may not be able to fully explain something the GOD has devised doesn't mean it isn't true.

Do you believe that God knows who will accept Christ, follow Christ, before they do? Did he know you would be a Christian prior to your becoming one? Does that mean you were born a Christian?

While I don't believe that Christianity is a religion, neither is the Calvinistic way of believing (a full religion). For me, it fully explains the Scriptures I read. As for "double" predestination yes, God predestined the devil and his cohorts to hell. But hell was not created for his creation of mankind. Man choose that all on his own.

 

[reba]

Did God create hell? What ever you think hell is.

 

[Grubal Muruch]

I would think both sides of this very old argument know they have eternal life because the Bible says so.

Reba, would you be willing to say, that both beliefs are true, then ? The Calvinist view, and the free-will view ? That, perchance they are"synonymous ?

 

[Grubal Muruch]

Just because I may not be able to fully explain something the GOD has devised doesn't mean it isn't true.

Do you believe that God knows who will accept Christ, follow Christ, before they do? Did he know you would be a Christian prior to your becoming one? Does that mean you were born a Christian?

While I don't believe that Christianity is a religion, neither is the Calvinistic way of believing (a full religion). For me, it fully explains the Scriptures I read. As for "double" predestination yes, God predestined the devil and his cohorts to hell. But hell was not created for his creation of mankind. Man choose that all on his own.

You asked, "do you believe that God knows who will accept Christ, follow Christ, before they do? Did he know you would be a Christian prior to your becoming one? Does that mean you were born a Christian?

Grubal answers, Yes I do believe God has, "foreknowledge" of whom will be saved and who will not. I was not born a "Christian believer. Quite the contrary, like ALL others, I came into the world a sinner.

You said, "God predestined the devil and his cohorts to hell. But hell was not created for his creation of mankind. Man choose that all on his own." You admit than, by your own words, that, "Man "choose" that all on his own."

By saying that, you agree that man has a "choice" in the manner...

 

[Danus]

Does Calvin teach,

>That men are "chosen" before the foundation of the world to be the "elect?"
>That men cannot resist this choice?
>That men cannot come to God apart from being a member of the chosen elect?

Are not these a part of Calvin's teachings,

Total depravity. This doesn't mean people are as bad as they can be. It means that sin is in every part of one's being, including the mind and will, so that a man cannot save himself.

U -- unconditional election. God chooses to save people unconditionally; that is, they are not chosen on the basis of their own merit.

L -- limited atonement. The sacrifice of Christ on the cross was for the purpose of saving the elect.

I -- irresistible grace. When God has chosen to save someone, He will.

P -- perseverence of the saints. Those people God chooses cannot lose their salvation; they will continue to believe. If they fall away, it will be only for a time.

Please show me where the confusion lies...

Also you wrote---God is available to all people. Salvation is possible for all people, and I believe God calls all people, but that not all will answer, or respond. That's the reason I thought you weren't a Calvinist. That doesn't sound like a Calvinist statement...

The confusion lies somewhere between your right ear and your left , but your not alone.

All Calvin ever did in regard to theology is quote the bible and give his explanation. Your view of the 5 points is twisted to how you interpret it, your own limited understanding of what you think Calvin was saying.

I would suggest that you put Calvin aside and enjoy your own salvation. Stick with that which you are most comfortable with. No one is required to understand John Calvin, or the reformist view, and those who don't are best left with their own understanding.

Now, if your goal is to understand Calvin, then fine. It's not that hard to do. Otherwise your honestly just making divisive waves, but doing so by showing your lack of interpretation, which is twisting your argument against yourself. ;)

Orthodox Christianity clearly recognizes Calvin's contribution as biblical, and further more, It's shameful to me, that Christians can't respect the most simplest of biblical views. It's no wonder the secular world laughs at us. It's no wonder the unsaved are confused when they see us treat each other like this when we have people willing to believe part of the bible, but not all of it, and whom can only grasp a portion of the scripture that makes sense to them.

Christianity is not Calvinist vs Armenians....both are 100% correct and should be sharing their views. It's clear to me that you are not here to understand Calvin. You have an agenda. Good luck with that, and I mean that in the most facitious way possible.

 

[reba]

I cant just say yes or no to your question Grub.

I am one of those people who have 'been Christian' all their life...Dad was in Bible School when i was born. Shoot we lived IN a couple churches...Some where a long the line I had to stop running in the house making sure Mom was home as to know rapture didn't happen :eeeekkk
I grew up under free will not osas.. I saw myself and other kids, a few grown ups, getting resaved about every other Sunday nite.. I had a bunch of questions.. Bugged mom and dad a bunch... A few years of rebellion and a couple kids, later i am back in church...Same questions....
see i dont fit in any of the 'boxes' I dont fully buy OSAS Yet the Scriptures say No man can pluck you from Him... free will dont fit... The Scriptures say He chooses. Man o man I would rather trust my salvation to Him then to myself! I have never studied Calvin. Raised in the Assemblies of God. Cant stand the WoF folks many which grew out of AofG... Married a Catholic almost 50 years ago.. sheesh i am a religious mess....;)

I see the point If He calls you and you reject Him that makes for a weak Saviour. I see the point He is strong enough to let us choose.. ?? well now back to the Scriptures that tells me He chose

I do believe He finds us where we are .The Good Shepard His Blood is how we are saved He paid the price. Out side of having some good study i truly dont think it matter how we say it... As long as we glory in nothing but the Cross.


Good grief that is a long post for me....clear as mud huh?

 

[reba]

Great post Danus

 

[Christ_empowered]

OK, I was raised Calvinist, but I have my doubts. But some answers to what I think your questions are, based on my limited knowledge and experience...

1) Damnation is humanity's default status, has been since The Fall. God chooses to intervene to save some, but not all. Its miraculous that anyone gets saved at all.

2) We don't really have "free will." You're a slave to sin or a slave to righteousness, and your so-called "free will" reflects that. As mentioned in point 1, we're born wicked and damned, our "free will" reflects our congenital defect (sin nature); only God can change this, and He does this for the Elect.

3) I don't think the Calvinism vs. Arminianism debate does anybody any good. I lean towards Calvinism b/c of how I was raised, my understanding of Scripture, and my own salvation experiences, in which I felt God choosing me and pulling me closer to Him; I certainly was in no position to "choose" God and then give up my old, sinful ways in my own strength. This confirmed what I'd been taught growing up.

4) Its not as if once you've become a Christian that's all you have to do in the Calvinist world. Although the Presbyterian and Reformed Churches have lost members in recent decades and the PCUSA branch of Presbyterianism is headed towards apostasy in its zeal to be "tolerant," historically Calvinists have been hardcore when it came to evangelizing and reaching the unconverted masses. You just never know whom God has saved, so try to preach the Word and see what happens. Also, the Great Commission didn't state "preach to the Elect," it was to make disciples of the whole world. Calvinists certainly take that seriously.

5) As for assurance of salvation...I don't know what to tell you. We're told on the one hand that we (Christians) were chosen before the world was even formed; we're also told to "work out our salvation with fear and trembling." Faith alone saves us, but "Faith without works is dead." I guess personally, as a semi-Calvinist, I see my salvation as an ongoing effort in which God is doing most of the work and I'm trying to do my best to show God's love to others and the world at large, and also to transform my heart and mind to become more godly. I'm not terribly good at it, but I'm getting better.

I've found, personally, that the more I realize or begin to grasp how Holy God is, the less "worthy" I feel of salvation and eternal life, but the more I hope a) to get into Heaven and b) to lead a life that will give at least some glory to God. I guess its kind of like the apostle Paul, who is revered and respected, calling himself "the worst of sinners" in the NT. He knew how mighty God is/was better than anyone, and as he got closer to Christ, he saw how weak and pathetic he was as a human being. Kind of reminds me of growing up Presby; all our prayers talked about how "wretched" and "wicked" we were. When I went to Baptist and Pentecostal churches, they were harder on sinful *acts*, but they didn't emphasize the sinful *nature* of human beings nearly as much.


This was kind of long and rambling but, you know, I thought I'd throw in my 2 cents.

 

[Grubal Muruch]

The confusion lies somewhere between your right ear and your left , but your not alone.

All Calvin ever did in regard to theology is quote the bible and give his explanation. Your view of the 5 points is twisted to how you interpret it, your own limited understanding of what you think Calvin was saying.

I would suggest that you put Calvin aside and enjoy your own salvation. Stick with that which you are most comfortable with. No one is required to understand John Calvin, or the reformist view, and those who don't are best left with their own understanding.

Now, if your goal is to understand Calvin, then fine. It's not that hard to do. Otherwise your honestly just making divisive waves, but doing so by showing your lack of interpretation, which is twisting your argument against yourself. ;)

Orthodox Christianity clearly recognizes Calvin's contribution as biblical, and further more, It's shameful to me, that Christians can't respect the most simplest of biblical views. It's no wonder the secular world laughs at us. It's no wonder the unsaved are confused when they see us treat each other like this when we have people willing to believe part of the bible, but not all of it, and whom can only grasp a portion of the scripture that makes sense to them.

Christianity is not Calvinist vs Armenians....both are 100% correct and should be sharing their views. It's clear to me that you are not here to understand Calvin. You have an agenda. Good luck with that, and I mean that in the most facitious way possible.

With ALL due respect, it seems for the most part, that every time someone brings up Calvin's beliefs, those who are Calvinist's say, "you don't understand what Calvin is saying, or Calvin didn't say that. There's a lot of history written about this man. It's not as if he lived the life of a recluse. Now some may believe they have special insight into the mind of Calvin. Or something along that line. (a "special" understanding) But for the most part, Calvin is a historical figure and his writings are open for debate and discussion. So unless you believe one has to be of "superior intelligence" (that may not be you, just a general statement not meant to ridicule) to fully understand and interpret Calvin's ideas, his history is open to all who wish to "peruse."

You say, "I would suggest that you put Calvin aside and enjoy your own salvation. Stick with that which you are most comfortable with. No one is required to understand John Calvin, or the reformist view, and those who don't are best left with their own understanding.

I believe that Calvin and any other historical figure is open for discussion. We may not agree, but that should not "stymie" debate.

If indeed I am showing a "lack of understanding," then set me straight. The "Tulip" reference, is there any validity to that ?

Finally, it is a shame that Christians did not "keep the purity of the faith, that, Paul admonished." Your not going to convince me, nor I you, but there is a "Huge chasm" between what I believe, and what you believe. Large enough to warrant open discussion...

 

[Grubal Muruch]

I cant just say yes or no to your question Grub.

I am one of those people who have 'been Christian' all their life...Dad was in Bible School when i was born. Shoot we lived IN a couple churches...Some where a long the line I had to stop running in the house making sure Mom was home as to know rapture didn't happen :eeeekkk
I grew up under free will not osas.. I saw myself and other kids, a few grown ups, getting resaved about every other Sunday nite.. I had a bunch of questions.. Bugged mom and dad a bunch... A few years of rebellion and a couple kids, later i am back in church...Same questions....
see i dont fit in any of the 'boxes' I dont fully buy OSAS Yet the Scriptures say No man can pluck you from Him... free will dont fit... The Scriptures say He chooses. Man o man I would rather trust my salvation to Him then to myself! I have never studied Calvin. Raised in the Assemblies of God. Cant stand the WoF folks many which grew out of AofG... Married a Catholic almost 50 years ago.. sheesh i am a religious mess....;)

I see the point If He calls you and you reject Him that makes for a weak Saviour. I see the point He is strong enough to let us choose.. ?? well now back to the Scriptures that tells me He chose

I do believe He finds us where we are .The Good Shepard His Blood is how we are saved He paid the price. Out side of having some good study i truly dont think it matter how we say it... As long as we glory in nothing but the Cross.


Good grief that is a long post for me....clear as mud huh?

Reba, I disagree with your beliefs but, I respect the way you present your beliefs. Your very cordial and I respect your opinions...

 

[Danus]

With ALL due respect, it seems for the most part, that every time someone brings up Calvin's beliefs, those who are Calvinist's say, "you don't understand what Calvin is saying, or Calvin didn't say that. There's a lot of history written about this man. It's not as if he lived the life of a recluse. Now some may believe they have special insight into the mind of Calvin. Or something along that line. (a "special" understanding) But for the most part, Calvin is a historical figure and his writings are open for debate and discussion. So unless you believe one has to be of "superior intelligence" (that may not be you, just a general statement not meant to ridicule) to fully understand and interpret Calvin's ideas, his history is open to all who wish to "peruse."

You say, "I would suggest that you put Calvin aside and enjoy your own salvation. Stick with that which you are most comfortable with. No one is required to understand John Calvin, or the reformist view, and those who don't are best left with their own understanding.

I believe that Calvin and any other historical figure is open for discussion. We may not agree, but that should not "stymie" debate.

If indeed I am showing a "lack of understanding," then set me straight. The "Tulip" reference, is there any validity to that ?

Finally, it is a shame that Christians did not "keep the purity of the faith, that, Paul admonished." Your not going to convince me, nor I you, but there is a "Huge chasm" between what I believe, and what you believe. Large enough to warrant open discussion...

Ok then, your first question has been answered. I would be more than happy to educate you on Calvin.

What's your next question.

 

[Grubal Muruch]

OK, I was raised Calvinist, but I have my doubts. But some answers to what I think your questions are, based on my limited knowledge and experience...

1) Damnation is humanity's default status, has been since The Fall. God chooses to intervene to save some, but not all. Its miraculous that anyone gets saved at all.

2) We don't really have "free will." You're a slave to sin or a slave to righteousness, and your so-called "free will" reflects that. As mentioned in point 1, we're born wicked and damned, our "free will" reflects our congenital defect (sin nature); only God can change this, and He does this for the Elect.

3) I don't think the Calvinism vs. Arminianism debate does anybody any good. I lean towards Calvinism b/c of how I was raised, my understanding of Scripture, and my own salvation experiences, in which I felt God choosing me and pulling me closer to Him; I certainly was in no position to "choose" God and then give up my old, sinful ways in my own strength. This confirmed what I'd been taught growing up.

4) Its not as if once you've become a Christian that's all you have to do in the Calvinist world. Although the Presbyterian and Reformed Churches have lost members in recent decades and the PCUSA branch of Presbyterianism is headed towards apostasy in its zeal to be "tolerant," historically Calvinists have been hardcore when it came to evangelizing and reaching the unconverted masses. You just never know whom God has saved, so try to preach the Word and see what happens. Also, the Great Commission didn't state "preach to the Elect," it was to make disciples of the whole world. Calvinists certainly take that seriously.

5) As for assurance of salvation...I don't know what to tell you. We're told on the one hand that we (Christians) were chosen before the world was even formed; we're also told to "work out our salvation with fear and trembling." Faith alone saves us, but "Faith without works is dead." I guess personally, as a semi-Calvinist, I see my salvation as an ongoing effort in which God is doing most of the work and I'm trying to do my best to show God's love to others and the world at large, and also to transform my heart and mind to become more godly. I'm not terribly good at it, but I'm getting better.

I've found, personally, that the more I realize or begin to grasp how Holy God is, the less "worthy" I feel of salvation and eternal life, but the more I hope a) to get into Heaven and b) to lead a life that will give at least some glory to God. I guess its kind of like the apostle Paul, who is revered and respected, calling himself "the worst of sinners" in the NT. He knew how mighty God is/was better than anyone, and as he got closer to Christ, he saw how weak and pathetic he was as a human being. Kind of reminds me of growing up Presby; all our prayers talked about how "wretched" and "wicked" we were. When I went to Baptist and Pentecostal churches, they were harder on sinful *acts*, but they didn't emphasize the sinful *nature* of human beings nearly as much.


This was kind of long and rambling but, you know, I thought I'd throw in my 2 cents.

1) Christ died for ALL, "John3:16" "For God so loved the "world,"(ALL mankind) that he gave his only begotten Son, that "whosoever" believeth in him should not perish, but have everlasting life.

2)Romans 10:9--That if thou shalt confess with thy mouth the Lord Jesus, and shalt believe in thine heart that God hath raised him from the dead, thou shalt be saved

3)Proverbs 3:5,6---Trust in the LORD with all thine heart; and lean not unto thine own understanding.

In all thy ways acknowledge him, and he shall direct thy paths.

4)1 Timothy 2:4--Who will have "ALL" men to be saved, and to come unto the knowledge of the truth.

5)1 John 5:13---These things have I written unto you that believe on the name of the Son of God; that ye may know that ye have eternal life, and that ye may believe on the name of the Son of God.

Christ came to pay the price for "ALL" the sins of every man, woman, and child. We can not do good works that will please God. The Bible says, Hebrews 11:6 says,"But without faith it is impossible to please him: for he that cometh to God must believe that he is, and that he is a rewarder of them that diligently seek him. Romans 10:9 says,
"If you confess with your mouth that Jesus is Lord and believe in your heart that God raised Him from the dead, you will be saved."

 

[Grubal Muruch]

Ok then, your first question has been answered. I would be more than happy to educate you on Calvin.

What's your next question.

Your answer was obviously, somewhat "cryptic!!!" But I'll except it as "your answer" and leave it at that. Thanks for your input, it was appreciated...

 

[Nick]

OK, I was raised Calvinist, but I have my doubts. But some answers to what I think your questions are, based on my limited knowledge and experience...

1) Damnation is humanity's default status, has been since The Fall. God chooses to intervene to save some, but not all. Its miraculous that anyone gets saved at all.

2) We don't really have "free will." You're a slave to sin or a slave to righteousness, and your so-called "free will" reflects that. As mentioned in point 1, we're born wicked and damned, our "free will" reflects our congenital defect (sin nature); only God can change this, and He does this for the Elect.

3) I don't think the Calvinism vs. Arminianism debate does anybody any good. I lean towards Calvinism b/c of how I was raised, my understanding of Scripture, and my own salvation experiences, in which I felt God choosing me and pulling me closer to Him; I certainly was in no position to "choose" God and then give up my old, sinful ways in my own strength. This confirmed what I'd been taught growing up.

4) Its not as if once you've become a Christian that's all you have to do in the Calvinist world. Although the Presbyterian and Reformed Churches have lost members in recent decades and the PCUSA branch of Presbyterianism is headed towards apostasy in its zeal to be "tolerant," historically Calvinists have been hardcore when it came to evangelizing and reaching the unconverted masses. You just never know whom God has saved, so try to preach the Word and see what happens. Also, the Great Commission didn't state "preach to the Elect," it was to make disciples of the whole world. Calvinists certainly take that seriously.

5) As for assurance of salvation...I don't know what to tell you. We're told on the one hand that we (Christians) were chosen before the world was even formed; we're also told to "work out our salvation with fear and trembling." Faith alone saves us, but "Faith without works is dead." I guess personally, as a semi-Calvinist, I see my salvation as an ongoing effort in which God is doing most of the work and I'm trying to do my best to show God's love to others and the world at large, and also to transform my heart and mind to become more godly. I'm not terribly good at it, but I'm getting better.

I've found, personally, that the more I realize or begin to grasp how Holy God is, the less "worthy" I feel of salvation and eternal life, but the more I hope a) to get into Heaven and b) to lead a life that will give at least some glory to God. I guess its kind of like the apostle Paul, who is revered and respected, calling himself "the worst of sinners" in the NT. He knew how mighty God is/was better than anyone, and as he got closer to Christ, he saw how weak and pathetic he was as a human being. Kind of reminds me of growing up Presby; all our prayers talked about how "wretched" and "wicked" we were. When I went to Baptist and Pentecostal churches, they were harder on sinful *acts*, but they didn't emphasize the sinful *nature* of human beings nearly as much.


This was kind of long and rambling but, you know, I thought I'd throw in my 2 cents.

Grubal Muruch, my general sentiments have been expressed in this post, by Christ_Empowered.

I am no expert in these matters - particulary this area of theology, which is obviously not as clear-cut as others. Otherwise these kind of debates would be a lot different. Like reba and CE I have grown up in the church, and one that teaches predestination. So I lean towards that. I see it in Scripture, but it will take me some time to compile arguements to present to you. I"m 19 years old. Reba is much older and more mature in the faith, as are many here. So I'll see what I can come up with, but I am sure that there are others here that can do so better than I.

 

[Grubal Muruch]

Grubal Muruch, my general sentiments have been expressed in this post, by Christ_Empowered.

I am no expert in these matters - particulary this area of theology, which is obviously not as clear-cut as others. Otherwise these kind of debates would be a lot different. Like reba and CE I have grown up in the church, and one that teaches predestination. So I lean towards that. I see it in Scripture, but it will take me some time to compile arguements to present to you. I"m 19 years old. Reba is much older and more mature in the faith, as are many here. So I'll see what I can come up with, but I am sure that there are others here that can do so better than I.

There are many, many people that see it the way I do, and there are many, many that believe your way. It's a debate that's taken place over hundreds of year's. The true believer's will have to find out when we stand before God I guess. I have an "inkling" He might relinquish that truth to us in person perhaps...Will have to wait and see...

 

[ivdavid]

There are many, many people that see it the way I do, and there are many, many that believe your way. It's a debate that's taken place over hundreds of year's. The true believer's will have to find out when we stand before God I guess. I have an "inkling" He might relinquish that truth to us in person perhaps...Will have to wait and see...

This is a good starting point. Once we can accept each other inspite of the differences, I'd say our discussions can actually turn fruitful.

Does Calvin teach,

>That men are "chosen" before the foundation of the world to be the "elect?"
>That men cannot resist this choice?
>That men cannot come to God apart from being a member of the chosen elect?

Are not these a part of Calvin's teachings,

Total depravity. This doesn't mean people are as bad as they can be. It means that sin is in every part of one's being, including the mind and will, so that a man cannot save himself.

U -- unconditional election. God chooses to save people unconditionally; that is, they are not chosen on the basis of their own merit.

L -- limited atonement. The sacrifice of Christ on the cross was for the purpose of saving the elect.

I -- irresistible grace. When God has chosen to save someone, He will.

P -- perseverence of the saints. Those people God chooses cannot lose their salvation; they will continue to believe. If they fall away, it will be only for a time.

I honestly cannot say if these are calvin's teachings because I haven't read any of his works yet. But these are what I believe in and from what I've heard most people say, I'm guessing this is what calvin believed too.

The L - Limited Atonement perhaps can be worded as Jesus' sacrifice on the cross being effective only for those who believe in Him, whom we call the elect of God since these who came to believe were chosen of God to be given such faith.

Where exactly do you differ from these beliefs - I did think that "man not being able to save himself" and "man not attaining unto salvation by any of his own merit" were quite obvious tenets of Christianity adhered to by all - in words, at least. Are you of another view here?

Also, when you say that man cannot come to God apart from being of the elect - it seems to imply that the cause of one not coming to God is God's refusal to elect him. But that's not what's implied in this belief framework. Man cannot come to God because of sin in the flesh. Now, when God elects a person, He regenerates him to be born in the spirit - and hence man is said to come to God because of God's work in him by the election of grace. It's one-way - condemned because of sin, saved because of God.

 

[ivdavid]

When I went to Baptist and Pentecostal churches, they were harder on sinful *acts*, but they didn't emphasize the sinful *nature* of human beings nearly as much.

Ah yes, I guess it's more profitable to preach on the sinfulness of the fleshly nature as contrasted with the righteous nature regenerated in man by God. Flesh gives birth to flesh and Spirit gives birth to spirit (John 3:6). Adam was a man in the flesh. Sin enslaved this fleshly nature and corrupted it. This flesh gave birth to flesh - and so we too are born with this corrupted flesh - a nature enslaved by sin.

But the Spirit gives birth to spirit - and that's what happens during regeneration. Our souls which were born in the flesh can now be said to be re-born in the spirit. So now, the regenerated man is open to the influences of both the righteous nature created by God and the sinful nature he was born with in the world. As the Spirit leads us, we will find that we are being caused to walk in His ways (Eze 36:27), according to all the good works He has appointed for us (Eph 2:10). We will find the works of our flesh being mortified by the working of the Spirit in us (Rom 8:13).

As for assurance of salvation...I don't know what to tell you. We're told on the one hand that we (Christians) were chosen before the world was even formed; we're also told to "work out our salvation with fear and trembling." Faith alone saves us, but "Faith without works is dead." I guess personally, as a semi-Calvinist, I see my salvation as an ongoing effort in which God is doing most of the work and I'm trying to do my best to show God's love to others and the world at large, and also to transform my heart and mind to become more godly. I'm not terribly good at it, but I'm getting better.

Salvation is a hope(an event expected to happen in the future) - and faith in Christ is the evidence of this future event definitely coming to pass (Hebrews 11:1)

What does it mean to believe in Christ - it means that we look unto Him and Him alone, and count His works alone as sufficient to acquit and save us on that final day.

So your assurance of salvation is your very believing in Christ - as long as you believe in His sufficiency, you are assured of being saved. It is when one turns to believe in his own works of merit to maintain goodness unto eternal life etc. that one cannot be assured.

Faith without works is indeed dead. Take up James 2:21 - Abraham evidenced his faith in God by his work of sacrificing Isaac. Look at the sequence of events - God made a promise to Abraham in Gen 17:19 that His everlasting covenant was with Isaac and his seed. God later asked Abraham to sacrifice Isaac in Gen 22. Now, for God's promise in Gen 17 to be fulfilled, Isaac cannot die now and yet that's what's being implied here. Here is where faith results in works. Abraham believed that God's promise can never be annulled - and hence he knew through his faith in God's ability and sufficiency to fulfill His promises, that Isaac would not die that day and even if he did, that God would bring him back to life somehow (Heb 11:17-19). And hence, knowing that Isaac cannot remain dead that day - because of God's promise - Abraham evidenced his faith in God's ability by his work of getting ready to sacrifice Isaac. If Abraham had hesitated to sacrifice Isaac, then this lack of his work would evidence his lack of faith in God's ability/nature to fulfill all His promises. Faith will necessarily result in evidencing works.

And it's not quite faith that saves us - it is grace that saves us, through the medium of faith.

And yes, we're told to work out or finish/accomplish our salvation in fear and trembling - I guess that refers to a reverential God-fearing awe, given that it is God who is working in us these works throughout our salvation process (Php 2:13). I don't see why this must refer to a fear of losing our salvation - when Jesus is the author and finisher of our faith and given that we are preserved in Him (Jude 1:1).