How do Calvinists know, that they have eternal life ?

[Danus]

Your answer was obviously, somewhat "cryptic!!!" But I'll except it as "your answer" and leave it at that. Thanks for your input, it was appreciated...

:toofunny.....I was not clear then? "Cryptic?" I had hidden meanings perhaps?

Come on GM! I got up this morning just to see what your next question's would be. I had planed to give you the big guns on Calvin. Now what I'm I going to do?

I think you understand John Calvin just fine....but...I think you just don't like it. I think you would rather stick with scripture that is more comfortable to you and not consider ALL of what the bible says about the nature of God and salvation, because your not sure how those bits fit with you. :

Not trying to be harsh here, and if what I'm saying rings at all true I'd say your in good company. In fact you can go to a Presbyterian church and find people who don't care for some of what Calvin had to say.

When I was a member of a very large Presbyterian church our pastor held a conference on Calvin. About 1500 members showed up to hear the deeper message of salvation. It was a disaster. ....most of these folks where hearing about predestination and election for the first time, and many did not like it. We had set up mic's for people to ask questions, but the pastor asked them questions of their questions and got some interesting responses.

People would say they are not comfortable with these thoughts, or that it did not seem fair, or how God would work to them. Most questioned their own salvation. However, many said they just did not understand it because it seemed too big to get their head around. Too academic or analytical.

People are more comfortable when they think they are in control. When they think they call the shots. People are willing to relinquish some control, but still feel more comfortable when they feel that they work on the side of that which they relinquish control to. People like the idea of fairness and not the idea of justice. Why? because justice it pointing a finger at them where as fairness wraps it ever love'n arms around them. Comfort.

Calvin says you are not in control. You do not call the shots. Calvin paints a picture of justice, not what we think is fair. People don't like this. They would rather stick with scriptures that tell them what "they" must do, and then they do that, with the feeling and security that they did the right things, and that because they obeyed and walked the line they are safe! Saved!

When people read the bible they want to understand it all, and to do that they have to reconcile it. This is a hunch, but I think this is more difficult for those who have been brought up in the Christian faith and have accepted Christianity at a very young age within the confines of a particular belief structure. Then later, as an adult, they feel that other belief structures are a threat to what they know and understand.

It's interesting to me that people who have come to know Christ later in life, say as an adult, seem to accept Calvin better than others who have accepted Christ at an early age. Again, I could be totally wrong here, and one example is not enough to prove this hunch one way or another, but I bet we could do a study on this and find a pattern.

There was a time when I was a willful sinner. I did not care for God, did not believe in God, thought all Christians where just weak minded fools. I was raised in a Christian home, but that did not matter to me because I was not convinced that God was real or that Christianity had any real truth to it.

I was going to make my own way, with my own rules and leave this world singing "I Did IT MY WAY.....:sing"....But, that did not happen, because God had his own plan. A plan that I did not understand, until later. Until after he got a hold of me.

God never let my plans fully succeed. He let them start out well, but he always pushed over my towers. I'd just start building them again. he'd let me get them pretty high and then knock them over again. He did this so that I would give up, so that I would get to a position in life where I was willing to listen. After all, you can't save a drowning man until he stops fighting to save himself.

My conversion took place the moment I let go. That's the moment I felt the spirit of God for the first time and I knew then that he was real, he does exist, and that he (NOT ME) had a plan for my life that would out do anything I had in mind for myself. At that point I just wanted to learn all I could about him.

I was not instantly well dressed, or behaved or anything that people want to associate Christians as. I was being changed by letting God change me, by living my life in "faith", not knowing what tomorrow would bring, but knowing that God would bring it.

That was twenty years ago. I did not know who Calvin was until about twelve years ago when I began studying various bible commentaries and classic theology. I found myself identifying with the reformist theology, or being most intrigued, by Luther, Calvin, Darby, Jamieson Faussett Brown, Matthew Henry, Wesley...and others. I'd about put them in that order.

This is not to say that my full understanding hinges on any one, or all of these guys, but rather that each have played a valuable part in my view of scripture. I still hold the bible as the word of God. (Period), but I test all things against it, and if there is a grain of truth that I don't understand I hold that in reserve until I have. IN fact that which I hold true I allow to be tested again and again.

 

[Grubal Muruch]

This is a good starting point. Once we can accept each other inspite of the differences, I'd say our discussions can actually turn fruitful.


I honestly cannot say if these are calvin's teachings because I haven't read any of his works yet. But these are what I believe in and from what I've heard most people say, I'm guessing this is what calvin believed too.

The L - Limited Atonement perhaps can be worded as Jesus' sacrifice on the cross being effective only for those who believe in Him, whom we call the elect of God since these who came to believe were chosen of God to be given such faith.

Where exactly do you differ from these beliefs - I did think that "man not being able to save himself" and "man not attaining unto salvation by any of his own merit" were quite obvious tenets of Christianity adhered to by all - in words, at least. Are you of another view here?

Also, when you say that man cannot come to God apart from being of the elect - it seems to imply that the cause of one not coming to God is God's refusal to elect him. But that's not what's implied in this belief framework. Man cannot come to God because of sin in the flesh. Now, when God elects a person, He regenerates him to be born in the spirit - and hence man is said to come to God because of God's work in him by the election of grace. It's one-way - condemned because of sin, saved because of God.

You say----"Where exactly do you differ from these beliefs - I did think that "man not being able to save himself" and "man not attaining unto salvation by any of his own merit" were quite obvious tenets of Christianity adhered to by all - in words, at least. Are you of another view here?

Grubal says----Man cannot save himself from sin. That's why Jesus came to earth to take upon Himself the sins of the "whole" world. He paid the price for sin by dying on the cross. ALL of OUR sins were "nailed" on that cross. After that "act" of pure love and sacrifice, God is able to offer, ALL men His forgiveness, mercy, and righteousness. The Holy Spirit came after, Christ left this world and ascended to the right hand of God the Father. The Spirit convicts the hearts of men towards sin and righteousness. The Bible says, "Faith comes by hearing and hearing by the word of God." So when a man hears about God's Grace, by way of a Pastor, teacher, a believer, or just reading the truth's from the Bible themselves, the Holy Spirit then can convict that mans heart of sin which is able to lead him to repentance and the opportunity to place his faith in Jesus as his personal Lord and Saviour.

Once that man realizes he's a sinner and unable to save himself or provide his own good works in order to stand before a righteous God (who expects sinless perfection) that man is now in a position to place his faith in Christ and ONLY Christ as his personal Lord and Saviour. As such he can come before God the Father (in prayer for instance) confessing to God that he is a sinner and cannot save himself and asks God's forgiveness of ALL his sins and that he desires to have Jesus, God's Son as his Saviour (trusting ONLY in Him) and then asks that God's Holy Spirit would indwell and seal him for eternity. Once this man or any man has placed his faith in Christ and ONLY Christ (not his own abilities or works) then the Holy Spirit by God's Grace comes to dwell within that man and seals him and he cannot lose his Salvation because he is now, "born again Spiritually" And able to go to Heaven when he dies.

This man because of the Grace of God has not only been forgiven of ALL his sins, but he's been given the righteousness of Christ and his sins will never be held against him again. The Holy Spirit within him, is now able to bring forth good works and fruit. And the Spirit's presence will help him to overcome his sinful thoughts and desires
of the past and work on him to become conformed to the image of Jesus Himself.

 

[Gazelle]

Grubal Murach, me thinks your arguments are not with us, fellow Christians, but with God Himself, for He is the One who spoke the Words that He knew would be translated into "elect", "election", and "the called" and "predestination." If it were not to be so, He would have prevented it.

This constant contention has it's roots somewhere for you, but it's not healthy imo.

So we have not stopped praying for you since we first heard about you. We ask God to give you complete knowledge of his will and to give you spiritual wisdom and understanding. – Colossians 1:9

For when we place our faith in Christ Jesus, there is no benefit in being circumcised or being uncircumcised. What is important is faith expressing itself in love. – Galatians 5:6

 

[Grubal Muruch]

:toofunny.....I was not clear then? "Cryptic?" I had hidden meanings perhaps?

Come on GM! I got up this morning just to see what your next question's would be. I had planed to give you the big guns on Calvin. Now what I'm I going to do?

I think you understand John Calvin just fine....but...I think you just don't like it. I think you would rather stick with scripture that is more comfortable to you and not consider ALL of what the bible says about the nature of God and salvation, because your not sure how those bits fit with you. :

Not trying to be harsh here, and if what I'm saying rings at all true I'd say your in good company. In fact you can go to a Presbyterian church and find people who don't care for some of what Calvin had to say.

When I was a member of a very large Presbyterian church our pastor held a conference on Calvin. About 1500 members showed up to hear the deeper message of salvation. It was a disaster. ....most of these folks where hearing about predestination and election for the first time, and many did not like it. We had set up mic's for people to ask questions, but the pastor asked them questions of their questions and got some interesting responses.

People would say they are not comfortable with these thoughts, or that it did not seem fair, or how God would work to them. Most questioned their own salvation. However, many said they just did not understand it because it seemed too big to get their head around. Too academic or analytical.

People are more comfortable when they think they are in control. When they think they call the shots. People are willing to relinquish some control, but still feel more comfortable when they feel that they work on the side of that which they relinquish control to. People like the idea of fairness and not the idea of justice. Why? because justice it pointing a finger at them where as fairness wraps it ever love'n arms around them. Comfort.

Calvin says you are not in control. You do not call the shots. Calvin paints a picture of justice, not what we think is fair. People don't like this. They would rather stick with scriptures that tell them what "they" must do, and then they do that, with the feeling and security that they did the right things, and that because they obeyed and walked the line they are safe! Saved!

When people read the bible they want to understand it all, and to do that they have to reconcile it. This is a hunch, but I think this is more difficult for those who have been brought up in the Christian faith and have accepted Christianity at a very young age within the confines of a particular belief structure. Then later, as an adult, they feel that other belief structures are a threat to what they know and understand.

It's interesting to me that people who have come to know Christ later in life, say as an adult, seem to accept Calvin better than others who have accepted Christ at an early age. Again, I could be totally wrong here, and one example is not enough to prove this hunch one way or another, but I bet we could do a study on this and find a pattern.

There was a time when I was a willful sinner. I did not care for God, did not believe in God, thought all Christians where just weak minded fools. I was raised in a Christian home, but that did not matter to me because I was not convinced that God was real or that Christianity had any real truth to it.

I was going to make my own way, with my own rules and leave this world singing "I Did IT MY WAY.....:sing"....But, that did not happen, because God had his own plan. A plan that I did not understand, until later. Until after he got a hold of me.

God never let my plans fully succeed. He let them start out well, but he always pushed over my towers. I'd just start building them again. he'd let me get them pretty high and then knock them over again. He did this so that I would give up, so that I would get to a position in life where I was willing to listen. After all, you can't save a drowning man until he stops fighting to save himself.

My conversion took place the moment I let go. That's the moment I felt the spirit of God for the first time and I knew then that he was real, he does exist, and that he (NOT ME) had a plan for my life that would out do anything I had in mind for myself. At that point I just wanted to learn all I could about him.

I was not instantly well dressed, or behaved or anything that people want to associate Christians as. I was being changed by letting God change me, by living my life in "faith", not knowing what tomorrow would bring, but knowing that God would bring it.

That was twenty years ago. I did not know who Calvin was until about twelve years ago when I began studying various bible commentaries and classic theology. I found myself identifying with the reformist theology, or being most intrigued, by Luther, Calvin, Darby, Jamieson Faussett Brown, Matthew Henry, Wesley...and others. I'd about put them in that order.

This is not to say that my full understanding hinges on any one, or all of these guys, but rather that each have played a valuable part in my view of scripture. I still hold the bible as the word of God. (Period), but I test all things against it, and if there is a grain of truth that I don't understand I hold that in reserve until I have. IN fact that which I hold true I allow to be tested again and again.

I am not a Baptist, Presbyterian, Catholic, Lutheran, Methodist, Pentecostal, Assembly of God, Episcopal, or of any other denomination, cult, offshoot, Mormon, Charismatic, etc,. etc. I'm a "Born-again, Bible believing, Christ centered, Christian believer. I do not adhere to infant baptism, speaking in tongues, water baptism to cleanse from sin, special healing abilities, I have never heard God audible, I'm not a prophet, a minister, a Pastor or Priest. I believe in, the Father, Son, and Holy Spirit.(Trinity) I believe Salvation is totally of God through the sacrifice of Christ His Son dying on the cross for our sins. I believe man comes into this world (physical birth) as a sinner, (because of the fall of Adam)

Man cannot save himself and without God's Grace he is doomed and will spend eternity separated from God in a place of torment. (not annihilation) I believe when the believer dies he go's to be with the Lord in Heaven (there is no purgatory) Jesus said (John 12:32) "And I, if I be lifted up from the earth, will draw all men to me. When we first hear about God's Grace, (His forgiveness and mercy through Christ's Atonement on the cross) The Holy Spirit uses that, "word of our Salvation" to begin to convict us (an unbeliever) of our sin and need for a Saviour. Without this work of the Holy Spirit we would not come to Christ on our own. When Christ left the earth the Holy Spirit came to work on the hearts of ALL human beings. Some do receive and others do not. But God's Salvation plan for mankind is available to ALL peoples everywhere. God desires "everyone one to come to Christ for their Salvation, forgiveness and mercy. Christ came to save sinners. The pharisees of old, (the religious hierarchy of their time) rejected Him and brought focus to the truth that He "hung out" with sinners (which He did) But these religious zealots (Pharisee's) were self-righteous and had contempt for the Son of God. They stuck by the Law but, had no heart, no real love. The Holy Spirit strive's with the hearts of ALL men throughout their live's to bring them to a saving knowledge of Christ and His sacrifice for their sins...

 

[Danus]

This has a few knots in it that need to be untied.

Grubal says----Man cannot save himself from sin. That's why Jesus came to earth to take upon Himself the sins of the "whole" world. He paid the price for sin by dying on the cross. ALL of OUR sins were "nailed" on that cross. After that "act" of pure love and sacrifice, God is able to offer, ALL men His forgiveness, mercy, and righteousness. The Holy Spirit came after, Christ left this world and ascended to the right hand of God the Father. The Spirit convicts the hearts of men towards sin and righteousness. The Bible says, "Faith comes by hearing and hearing by the word of God." So when a man hears about God's Grace, by way of a Pastor, teacher, a believer, or just reading the truth's from the Bible themselves, the Holy Spirit then can convict that mans heart of sin which is able to lead him to repentance and the opportunity to place his faith in Jesus as his personal Lord and Saviour.

Faith is a gift from God. Man does not come to God on his own, because he hates God, on his own. Man can hear the word and be able to have salvation, but it is God who makes that possible, not man. Man is totally depraved. If God does not intervene man does not choose him. The cross means nothing to man on his own.

There is an element in your theology that is saying man chooses God. God lays it out this way or that way and man makes the choice. But, the bible does not back that up in such a clear way. Jesus said, "This is why I told you that no one can come to me unless the Father has enabled him" (John 6:65). The Psalmist said, "Surely I was sinful at birth, sinful from the time my mother conceived me" (Ps. 51:5). God must initiate salvation because man cannot, moreover "Will not".

The word of God has been preached all over the glob. We have people today, as in years past, who have heard the word of God and turned away. Your saying that's their choice, but we have people who have heard the word wanted to accept it, tried to do so and have also turned away. Your saying that's their choice. However, that's not the whole story or explanation God gives of man in the bible, because God also says man will not choose him if given the choice.

So, does God intervene to convict all men of their sins and call them toward him? Yes, he does. All men are given the chance to accept or reject God because God calls all men. According to 2 Pet. 3:9, "The Lord is not slow in keeping his promise, as some understand slowness. He is patient with you, not wanting anyone to perish, but everyone to come to repentance." According to 1 Tim. 2:3-4, "This is good, and pleases God our Savior, who wants all men to be saved and to come to a knowledge of the truth."

God will freely offer the gift of salvation to everyone, but each person must decide to accept or reject this free gift. However, God must call us first, as we are incapable of inclining our wills toward God on our own.

Once that man realizes he's a sinner and unable to save himself or provide his own good works in order to stand before a righteous God (who expects sinless perfection) that man is now in a position to place his faith in Christ and ONLY Christ as his personal Lord and Saviour. As such he can come before God the Father (in prayer for instance) confessing to God that he is a sinner and cannot save himself and asks God's forgiveness of ALL his sins and that he desires to have Jesus, God's Son as his Saviour (trusting ONLY in Him) and then asks that God's Holy Spirit would indwell and seal him for eternity. Once this man or any man has placed his faith in Christ and ONLY Christ (not his own abilities or works) then the Holy Spirit by God's Grace comes to dwell within that man and seals him and he cannot lose his Salvation because he is now, "born again Spiritually" And able to go to Heaven when he dies.

This man because of the Grace of God has not only been forgiven of ALL his sins, but he's been given the righteousness of Christ and his sins will never be held against him again. The Holy Spirit within him, is now able to bring forth good works and fruit. And the Spirit's presence will help him to overcome his sinful thoughts and desires
of the past and work on him to become conformed to the image of Jesus Himself.

On the one hand your saying man does something to be saved and on the other hand your saying he can't do anything. That's a puzzle isn't it? A contradiction within your theology.

If man can't save himself then what makes you think he has the ability to turn to God to save him, or ask God to do it since God wants all men to be saved anyway? How is it that man must first "DO" something that God says he can't do?

 

[Danus]

I am not a Baptist, Presbyterian, Catholic, Lutheran, Methodist, Pentecostal, Assembly of God, Episcopal, or of any other denomination, cult, offshoot, Mormon, Charismatic, etc,. etc. I'm a "Born-again, Bible believing, Christ centered, Christian believer. I do not adhere to infant baptism, speaking in tongues, water baptism to cleanse from sin, special healing abilities, I have never heard God audible, I'm not a prophet, a minister, a Pastor or Priest. I believe in, the Father, Son, and Holy Spirit.(Trinity) I believe Salvation is totally of God through the sacrifice of Christ His Son dying on the cross for our sins. I believe man comes into this world (physical birth) as a sinner, (because of the fall of Adam)

Man cannot save himself and without God's Grace he is doomed and will spend eternity separated from God in a place of torment. (not annihilation) I believe when the believer dies he go's to be with the Lord in Heaven (there is no purgatory) Jesus said (John 12:32) "And I, if I be lifted up from the earth, will draw all men to me. When we first hear about God's Grace, (His forgiveness and mercy through Christ's Atonement on the cross) The Holy Spirit uses that, "word of our Salvation" to begin to convict us (an unbeliever) of our sin and need for a Saviour. Without this work of the Holy Spirit we would not come to Christ on our own. When Christ left the earth the Holy Spirit came to work on the hearts of ALL human beings. Some do receive and others do not. But God's Salvation plan for mankind is available to ALL peoples everywhere. God desires "everyone one to come to Christ for their Salvation, forgiveness and mercy. Christ came to save sinners. The pharisees of old, (the religious hierarchy of their time) rejected Him and brought focus to the truth that He "hung out" with sinners (which He did) But these religious zealots (Pharisee's) were self-righteous and had contempt for the Son of God. They stuck by the Law but, had no heart, no real love. The Holy Spirit strive's with the hearts of ALL men throughout their live's to bring them to a saving knowledge of Christ and His sacrifice for their sins...

....Then why do you have a problem with John Calvin? :

 

[Grubal Muruch]

This has a few knots in it that need to be untied.




Faith is a gift from God. Man does not come to God on his own, because he hates God, on his own. Man can hear the word and be able to have salvation, but it is God who makes that possible, not man. Man is totally depraved. If God does not intervene man does not choose him. The cross means nothing to man on his own.

There is an element in your theology that is saying man chooses God. God lays it out this way or that way and man makes the choice. But, the bible does not back that up in such a clear way. Jesus said, "This is why I told you that no one can come to me unless the Father has enabled him" (John 6:65). The Psalmist said, "Surely I was sinful at birth, sinful from the time my mother conceived me" (Ps. 51:5). God must initiate salvation because man cannot, moreover "Will not".

The word of God has been preached all over the glob. We have people today, as in years past, who have heard the word of God and turned away. Your saying that's their choice, but we have people who have heard the word wanted to accept it, tried to do so and have also turned away. Your saying that's their choice. However, that's not the whole story or explanation God gives of man in the bible, because God also says man will not choose him if given the choice.

So, does God intervene to convict all men of their sins and call them toward him? Yes, he does. All men are given the chance to accept or reject God because God calls all men. According to 2 Pet. 3:9, "The Lord is not slow in keeping his promise, as some understand slowness. He is patient with you, not wanting anyone to perish, but everyone to come to repentance." According to 1 Tim. 2:3-4, "This is good, and pleases God our Savior, who wants all men to be saved and to come to a knowledge of the truth."

God will freely offer the gift of salvation to everyone, but each person must decide to accept or reject this free gift. However, God must call us first, as we are incapable of inclining our wills toward God on our own.




On the one hand your saying man does something to be saved and on the other hand your saying he can't do anything. That's a puzzle isn't it? A contradiction within your theology.

If man can't save himself then what makes you think he has the ability to turn to God to save him, or ask God to do it since God wants all men to be saved anyway? How is it that man must first "DO" something that God says he can't do?

You say----Faith is a gift from God.

Grubal----That's true except we have different perspectives. I say, God has given ALL men an ability to place their faith in something. You on the other hand believe, God gives, only the elect the faith to believe.

you say----- Man does not come to God on his own,

Grubal-------That's true, man must first hear the Word and the Holy Spirit uses that Word to convict and lead them to Salvation.

you say----Man can hear the word and be able to have salvation, but it is God who makes that possible

Grubal---That's true because of the work of the Holy Spirit.

you say----There is an element in your theology that is saying man chooses God. God lays it out this way or that way and man makes the choice.

Grubal---Taking into consideration of course the work of the Holy Spirit, man by (free-will) has a choice to make, that's true.

you say---The word of God has been preached all over the glob. We have people today, as in years past, who have heard the word of God and turned away. Your saying that's their choice, but we have people who have heard the word wanted to accept it, tried to do so and have also turned away. Your saying that's their choice.

Grubal---YES!!

you say---So, does God intervene to convict all men of their sins and call them toward him? Yes, he does. All men are given the chance to accept or reject God because God calls all men. According to 2 Pet. 3:9, "The Lord is not slow in keeping his promise, as some understand slowness. He is patient with you, not wanting anyone to perish, but everyone to come to repentance." According to 1 Tim. 2:3-4, "This is good, and pleases God our Savior, who wants all men to be saved and to come to a knowledge of the truth."

Grubal--- I have no problem with any thing you said here.

you said----God will freely offer the gift of salvation to everyone, but each person must decide to accept or reject this free gift.

Grubal---Yes, this is true

you said----However, God must call us first, as we are incapable of inclining our wills toward God on our own.

Grubal--- He uses His Word (the Bible) to call us. Faith comes by hearing and hearing by the Word of God...

you said---On the one hand your saying man does something to be saved and on the other hand your saying he can't do anything. That's a puzzle isn't it? A contradiction within your theology.

Grubal---There's no contradiction whatsoever. Christ did it ALL (all the work) on the cross. We (the human race) must ONLY place our (God given ability to choose what we believe) in Christ and His "WORK" on the cross. We offer only our faith, He on the other hand did ALL the "Work."

you say---If man can't save himself then what makes you think he has the ability to turn to God to save him, or ask God to do it since God wants all men to be saved anyway? How is it that man must first "DO" something that God says he can't do?[/QUOTE]

Grubal---Man CANNOT save himself, that's why Christ came to "pay the price" for OUR sins. Because we have been given free-will by God, God will not force us to become saved. He has "graciously" offered His Grace to ALL humanity but, He didn't create a bunch of robots or puppets to do exactly what He tells them. That's where choice comes in.

 

[Grubal Muruch]

Grubal Murach, me thinks your arguments are not with us, fellow Christians, but with God Himself, for He is the One who spoke the Words that He knew would be translated into "elect", "election", and "the called" and "predestination." If it were not to be so, He would have prevented it.

This constant contention has it's roots somewhere for you, but it's not healthy imo.

So we have not stopped praying for you since we first heard about you. We ask God to give you complete knowledge of his will and to give you spiritual wisdom and understanding. – Colossians 1:9

For when we place our faith in Christ Jesus, there is no benefit in being circumcised or being uncircumcised. What is important is faith expressing itself in love. – Galatians 5:6

you said---- This constant contention has it's roots somewhere for you, but it's not healthy imo.

Grubal---That's your opinion and of course that's your right. But if your feeling "contention" it's coming from your perspective. I don't feel (within my perspective) that this discussion is "unhealthy."

 

[Gazelle]

I am not a Baptist, Presbyterian, Catholic, Lutheran, Methodist, Pentecostal, Assembly of God, Episcopal, or of any other denomination, cult, offshoot, Mormon, Charismatic, etc,. etc. I'm a "Born-again, Bible believing, Christ centered, Christian believer. I do not adhere to infant baptism, speaking in tongues, water baptism to cleanse from sin, special healing abilities, I have never heard God audible, I'm not a prophet, a minister, a Pastor or Priest. I believe in, the Father, Son, and Holy Spirit.(Trinity) I believe Salvation is totally of God through the sacrifice of Christ His Son dying on the cross for our sins. I believe man comes into this world (physical birth) as a sinner, (because of the fall of Adam)

Man cannot save himself and without God's Grace he is doomed and will spend eternity separated from God in a place of torment. (not annihilation) I believe when the believer dies he go's to be with the Lord in Heaven (there is no purgatory) Jesus said (John 12:32) "And I, if I be lifted up from the earth, will draw all men to me. When we first hear about God's Grace, (His forgiveness and mercy through Christ's Atonement on the cross) The Holy Spirit uses that, "word of our Salvation" to begin to convict us (an unbeliever) of our sin and need for a Saviour. Without this work of the Holy Spirit we would not come to Christ on our own. When Christ left the earth the Holy Spirit came to work on the hearts of ALL human beings. Some do receive and others do not. But God's Salvation plan for mankind is available to ALL peoples everywhere. God desires "everyone one to come to Christ for their Salvation, forgiveness and mercy. Christ came to save sinners. The pharisees of old, (the religious hierarchy of their time) rejected Him and brought focus to the truth that He "hung out" with sinners (which He did) But these religious zealots (Pharisee's) were self-righteous and had contempt for the Son of God. They stuck by the Law but, had no heart, no real love. The Holy Spirit strive's with the hearts of ALL men throughout their live's to bring them to a saving knowledge of Christ and His sacrifice for their sins...

So what's to argue? I'd rather see such intellect discussing and studying the deeper things of Christ rather than those things we hold strongly to... sometimes I read things here that are much liken to debating how many angels can sit on the head of a pin! View attachment 2451

 

[theLords]

you said---- This constant contention has it's roots somewhere for you, but it's not healthy imo.

Grubal---That's your opinion and of course that's your right. But if your feeling "contention" it's coming from your perspective. I don't feel (within my perspective) that this discussion is "unhealthy."

Take a look through your posting history, GM. The only thing you seem to discuss is "Calvinists" and "Calvinism." Instead of using your words for unity, your using your words for division.

 

[Mike_S]

@Grubal Muruch

Why the persistence with being so divisive, you obviously have a distaste for Calvinism, which you lack much in the way of understanding?

OK, so you believe you're a sinner but not so bad that you can't reach out to God when he calls you. That you're dead in your sins but not so dead that you can't comprehend the message, discern the message, and respond to the spirit of God when he calls you. OK, so you and God have a sort of co-op, he gives you your instructions, when you fulfill them then you're saved, not before.

I got it, you're not such a bad guy, Calvin was a heel - too bad you didn't better articulate what Calvin taught. I don't care so much that you feel the way you do, the annoying part is you don't fully understand Calvin's system.

What I would really like to know is, can you be honest and actually admit what it is YOU believe, why you believe it, and can you put THIS system of belief into easy-to-understand language? Btw, "The bible says it, I believe it, and that settles it" isn't exactly academic so please no single scripture picking.

Maybe tell us who your 5 favorite authors are on "theology", or "the person and work of Christ", "man's role in salvation"? Where did your pastor go to seminary? What church do you go to? Please, rather than ask questions you know cause strife, maybe you could actually let us know where you're coming from. You seem to want to draw others into having to explain to you what they believe, why don't you answer your own questions - in detail, with sources, historical references - you did put your theology together from some writers, who?

Prov. 18:6-7
A fool's lips bring strife, and his mouth calls for blows. A fool's mouth is his ruin, and his lips are the snare of his soul.

Phil. 1:15-17
Some, to be sure, are preaching Christ even from envy and strife, but some also from good will; the latter do it out of love, knowing that I am appointed for the defense of the gospel; the former proclaim Christ out of selfish ambition, rather than from pure motives, thinking to cause me distress in my imprisonment.

Let's not be like some of the Philippians.

 

[Danus]

You say----Faith is a gift from God.

Grubal----That's true except we have different perspectives. I say, God has given ALL men an ability to place their faith in something. You on the other hand believe, God gives, only the elect the faith to believe.

you say----- Man does not come to God on his own,

Grubal-------That's true, man must first hear the Word and the Holy Spirit uses that Word to convict and lead them to Salvation.

you say----Man can hear the word and be able to have salvation, but it is God who makes that possible

Grubal---That's true because of the work of the Holy Spirit.

you say----There is an element in your theology that is saying man chooses God. God lays it out this way or that way and man makes the choice.

Grubal---Taking into consideration of course the work of the Holy Spirit, man by (free-will) has a choice to make, that's true.

you say---The word of God has been preached all over the glob. We have people today, as in years past, who have heard the word of God and turned away. Your saying that's their choice, but we have people who have heard the word wanted to accept it, tried to do so and have also turned away. Your saying that's their choice.

Grubal---YES!!

you say---So, does God intervene to convict all men of their sins and call them toward him? Yes, he does. All men are given the chance to accept or reject God because God calls all men. According to 2 Pet. 3:9, "The Lord is not slow in keeping his promise, as some understand slowness. He is patient with you, not wanting anyone to perish, but everyone to come to repentance." According to 1 Tim. 2:3-4, "This is good, and pleases God our Savior, who wants all men to be saved and to come to a knowledge of the truth."

Grubal--- I have no problem with any thing you said here.

you said----God will freely offer the gift of salvation to everyone, but each person must decide to accept or reject this free gift.

Grubal---Yes, this is true

you said----However, God must call us first, as we are incapable of inclining our wills toward God on our own.

Grubal--- He uses His Word (the Bible) to call us. Faith comes by hearing and hearing by the Word of God...

you said---On the one hand your saying man does something to be saved and on the other hand your saying he can't do anything. That's a puzzle isn't it? A contradiction within your theology.

Grubal---There's no contradiction whatsoever. Christ did it ALL (all the work) on the cross. We (the human race) must ONLY place our (God given ability to choose what we believe) in Christ and His "WORK" on the cross. We offer only our faith, He on the other hand did ALL the "Work."

you say---If man can't save himself then what makes you think he has the ability to turn to God to save him, or ask God to do it since God wants all men to be saved anyway? How is it that man must first "DO" something that God says he can't do?

Grubal---Man CANNOT save himself, that's why Christ came to "pay the price" for OUR sins. Because we have been given free-will by God, God will not force us to become saved. He has "graciously" offered His Grace to ALL humanity but, He didn't create a bunch of robots or puppets to do exactly what He tells them. That's where choice comes in.

So close and yet so far.

Right here is where the misunderstanding of Calvin is

Grubal--- He uses His Word (the Bible) to call us. Faith comes by hearing and hearing by the Word of God...

Faith does not come from the direct result of hearing the word of God. many people have heard the word of God and have absolutely no faith in God what so ever.

Now God surly uses the word to call us. That's one way, but our FAITH, doe not come from ourselves, nor is it prepacked up in the word. We may have faith in the word of God. true, but man does not receive faith simply by hearing the word of God. If he did everyone would be saved, and everyone is NOT saved.

Then you'll say, that God gives man fee will to choose, but again, man does not choose God in the first place, so his ability to make this choice is false, and we go back to God choosing.

This is where your hung up.

 

[Grubal Muruch]

So what's to argue? I'd rather see such intellect discussing and studying the deeper things of Christ rather than those things we hold strongly to... sometimes I read things here that are much liken to debating how many angels can sit on the head of a pin! View attachment 2451

No offence to you personally, but you could start your own thread on here. Just a suggestion if you don't like this discussion. Meant only in a friendly sense.

 

[Grubal Muruch]

....Then why do you have a problem with John Calvin? :

Calvin denies the God given "free-will" that ALL people have. And without our free-will we would be "mere puppets or robots." That's not what God intended. Faith pleases God. Abraham believed God and it was accounted to him as righteousness.

 

[Danus]

Calvin denies the God given "free-will" that ALL people have. And without our free-will we would be "mere puppets or robots." That's not what God intended. Faith pleases God. Abraham believed God and it was accounted to him as righteousness.

Wrong. He defines what that free will is based solely on the biblical teaching of what in fact free will is.

 

[ivdavid]

Are not these a part of Calvin's teachings,

Total depravity. This doesn't mean people are as bad as they can be. It means that sin is in every part of one's being, including the mind and will, so that a man cannot save himself.

U -- unconditional election. God chooses to save people unconditionally; that is, they are not chosen on the basis of their own merit.

L -- limited atonement. The sacrifice of Christ on the cross was for the purpose of saving the elect.

I -- irresistible grace. When God has chosen to save someone, He will.

P -- perseverence of the saints. Those people God chooses cannot lose their salvation; they will continue to believe. If they fall away, it will be only for a time.

I don't want to be seen as playing around semantics, which is definitely not my intention - so help me see this through -
I've quoted above what you've asked about Calvin's teachings. And the following are what you yourself have stated about your beliefs -

Grubal Muruch - "Man cannot save himself from sin."
This is the ad verbatim conclusion derived from the T - Total Depravity - as stated by you yourself in your rendition of what you've understood to be Calvin's teachings. It seems to me that you're agreeing with Calvin on this.

Grubal Muruch - "this man or any man has placed his faith in Christ and ONLY Christ (not his own abilities or works)"
"Not man's own abilities or works" seems to imply that man is not saved "based on his own merit". This lines up with your very understanding of what the U - Unconditional election is.

Grubal Muruch - "ALL of OUR sins were "nailed" on that cross."
I can't read too much into this - but does "ALL OUR sins" refer to just our past sins as of the point in time of hearing the Gospel - or does it refer to just about every single sin committed in our life on earth, past present and future?

If "All Our sins" have been nailed to the cross, what sins are the unbelievers going to be judged into condemnation for, on that final day?

On the other hand, if you do believe that all the unbelievers' sins are not effectively nailed upon the cross until such time that they repent into Christ, then that's you believing in the L - Limited Atonement.

Grubal Muruch - "the Holy Spirit by God's Grace comes to dwell within that man and seals him and he cannot lose his Salvation because he is now, "born again Spiritually" And able to go to Heaven when he dies."
I may have completely misunderstood you, but if "man cannot lose his Salvation because of God's Grace", that there sounds exactly like the P - Perseverance of the saints.

And if the above is true according to you, you have just implied that man cannot resist that Grace of God which preserves man into perseverance - and in that you have embraced the I - Irresistible Grace.


You seem to come across as one of the most ardent followers of Calvin's teachings here. And yet you keep posting against Calvinism. I am not sarcastic here - but I'm genuinely confused about where exactly your disconnect with calvinism is.

 

[Danus]

Calvin denies the God given "free-will" that ALL people have. And without our free-will we would be "mere puppets or robots." That's not what God intended. Faith pleases God. Abraham believed God and it was accounted to him as righteousness.

Wrong. He defines what that free will is based solely on the biblical teaching of what in fact free will is.

In the effort of time, let me further explain.

Man is limited by his own nature. I have free will, but that does not mean I can choose anything. I desire to fly but I am limited to the very physical nature I possess. For me to fly on my own power I'd have to be physically converted to a body that would allow me to fly.

Hold that thought.

Does God have free will? yes! But he is limited to his own nature. That's right. That's what I said.

The argument against this would be that God is all powerful and can do anything, but that's not correct in terms of how God can excersise, or would, his own free will. God is limited.

God can choose to do what is in accordance with his nature, but He cannot violate His own nature, for example: God cannot lie. God cannot stop being God. God cannot make a rock bigger than He can pick up.....ect, ect...How do I know this? Is it calvin? NO The bible.

In the same way man is limited to his own nature. the nature of man is sinful and therefore he has NOT the ability to choose God by way of his own free will since his own free will is limited to his very nature SIN. He must be converted....and we call that Born again. This is also biblical

John 3:1-7
1 Now there was a Pharisee, a man named Nicodemus who was a member of the Jewish ruling council. 2 He came to Jesus at night and said, “Rabbi, we know that you are a teacher who has come from God. For no one could perform the signs you are doing if God were not with him.”
3 Jesus replied, “Very truly I tell you, no one can see the kingdom of God unless they are born again.[a]”

4 “How can someone be born when they are old?” Nicodemus asked. “Surely they cannot enter a second time into their mother’s womb to be born!”

5 Jesus answered, “Very truly I tell you, no one can enter the kingdom of God unless they are born of water and the Spirit. 6 Flesh gives birth to flesh, but the Spirit gives birth to spirit. 7 You should not be surprised at my saying, ‘You[c] must be born again.’

Here are the critical errors people have with the notion of Free will.

1. That free will is independent of all things. By this is meant that a person is completely and totally free from all influences whether external or internal. This is not true. not only is it not true, it's impossible.

2. That free will will means that someone can act contrary to his own nature. Well can they? NO. I still can't fly

3. That free will is something within man that is independent of God; that it is, completely man’s and not under the soverign knowledge and control of God. Come on! How powerful is God then? Would you really want God to leave it up to you? I wouldn't. I trust God. I do not trust me.

 

[Grubal Muruch]

Take a look through your posting history, GM. The only thing you seem to discuss is "Calvinists" and "Calvinism." Instead of using your words for unity, your using your words for division.

I'm not a, "one trick pony," I'm able to discuss almost anything that comes down the pike. I have created a few threads that I thought were worthy of discussion. Perhaps the subject matter is, somewhat controversial, but of interest to me, and obviously others have joined in on the conversation, most disagreeing. But, I don't see any reason for avoiding subjects that are "uncomfortable." Everyone has their own opinion and that opinion should be respected.

There's never any need for name calling or angry retorts. Since you have perused my postings, you can see that I don't dabble in such negative personal responses. I believe once a person resorts to name calling and angry retorts, he has obviously,run out of any, real thought out opinions and therefore must rely on petty tongue lashing. I respect those who can present their opinion in a rational/logical way, without resorting to angry outbursts. As a Christian we must practice self control over our anger issues. The Bible says, "Be angry but sin not." Snide remarks, name calling, angry retorts, are not a good testimony before the world and among fellow believers.

If anyone out there wants to choose a subject to discuss with me, feel free to do so. I'm not stuck on Calvinism, it just makes for good discussion, and an interesting subject. Ask me how I feel about anything. I'll try and give an articulate answer. This subject does, at least, bring out the varying opinions that make for a good discussion. But I'm open to any other topics...

 

[glorydaz]

I'm not a, "one trick pony," I'm able to discuss almost anything that comes down the pike. I have created a few threads that I thought were worthy of discussion. Perhaps the subject matter is, somewhat controversial, but of interest to me, and obviously others have joined in on the conversation, most disagreeing. But, I don't see any reason for avoiding subjects that are "uncomfortable." Everyone has their own opinion and that opinion should be respected.

There's never any need for name calling or angry retorts. Since you have perused my postings, you can see that I don't dabble in such negative personal responses. I believe once a person resorts to name calling and angry retorts, he has obviously,run out of any, real thought out opinions and therefore must rely on petty tongue lashing. I respect those who can present their opinion in a rational/logical way, without resorting to angry outbursts. As a Christian we must practice self control over our anger issues. The Bible says, "Be angry but sin not." Snide remarks, name calling, angry retorts, are not a good testimony before the world and among fellow believers.

If anyone out there wants to choose a subject to discuss with me, feel free to do so. I'm not stuck on Calvinism, it just makes for good discussion, and an interesting subject. Ask me how I feel about anything. I'll try and give an articulate answer. This subject does, at least, bring out the varying opinions that make for a good discussion. But I'm open to any other topics...

In your defense, many of these threads have Calvinism injected into them by Calvinists. Some to such a degree that the topic itself gets overlooked. I would encourage you, brother, as I see no dabbling in personal attacks in your posts.

 

[Danus]

If anyone out there wants to choose a subject to discuss with me, feel free to do so. I'm not stuck on Calvinism, it just makes for good discussion, and an interesting subject. Ask me how I feel about anything. I'll try and give an articulate answer. This subject does, at least, bring out the varying opinions that make for a good discussion. But I'm open to any other topics...

I'm cool with this topic. I left off addressing free will. When your ready.