How do Christians deal with violent verses?

[monica98]

Hello everyone,

I was born in a Christian family but never religious and i like to mix around with people from other faith. Many occasions i was questioned by non-christian friends who cited violent passage from the bible to criticize my faith.
Example:
Deuteronomy 13:6-9


6 “If your brother, your mother’s son, or your son or daughter, or the wife [a]you cherish, or your friend who is as your own soul, entice you secretly, saying, ‘Let us go and serve other gods’ (whom neither you nor your fathers have known, 7 of the gods of the peoples who are around you, near you or far from you, from one end of the earth to the other end), 8 you shall not yield to him or listen to him; and your eye shall not pity him, nor shall you spare or conceal him. 9 But you shall surely kill him; your hand shall be first against him to put him to death, and afterwards the hand of all the people.

What will be the appropriate response?

 

[JLB]

Hello everyone,

I was born in a Christian family but never religious and i like to mix around with people from other faith. Many occasions i was questioned by non-christian friends who cited violent passage from the bible to criticize my faith.
Example:
Deuteronomy 13:6-9


6 “If your brother, your mother’s son, or your son or daughter, or the wife [a]you cherish, or your friend who is as your own soul, entice you secretly, saying, ‘Let us go and serve other gods’ (whom neither you nor your fathers have known, 7 of the gods of the peoples who are around you, near you or far from you, from one end of the earth to the other end), 8 you shall not yield to him or listen to him; and your eye shall not pity him, nor shall you spare or conceal him. 9 But you shall surely kill him; your hand shall be first against him to put him to death, and afterwards the hand of all the people.

What will be the appropriate response?

The law of Moses has vanished away, be only a shadow of the good things to come.


JLB

 

[TOG]

Hello everyone,

I was born in a Christian family but never religious and i like to mix around with people from other faith. Many occasions i was questioned by non-christian friends who cited violent passage from the bible to criticize my faith.
Example:
Deuteronomy 13:6-9


6 “If your brother, your mother’s son, or your son or daughter, or the wife [a]you cherish, or your friend who is as your own soul, entice you secretly, saying, ‘Let us go and serve other gods’ (whom neither you nor your fathers have known, 7 of the gods of the peoples who are around you, near you or far from you, from one end of the earth to the other end), 8 you shall not yield to him or listen to him; and your eye shall not pity him, nor shall you spare or conceal him. 9 But you shall surely kill him; your hand shall be first against him to put him to death, and afterwards the hand of all the people.

What will be the appropriate response?

We should respond to these verses the same way Americans respond to laws that say that criminals are to be killed. Ordinary citizens do not have the right to kill someone just because they saw them commit a crime for which the death penalty is a possible sentence. They are to report them to the police, and the criminal will be sentenced in court. The verses that say that people are to be stoned to death for various offenses don't mean that just anybody can decide to kill someone who has committed these acts, but that death is the maximum sentence that a court can impose for that crime.

The TOG​

 

[Gary]

My response would be something similar to this:

The passage from Deuteronomy is a part of the the Old Covenant, the Old Covenant no longer exists. It was replaced by the New Covenant.

Hebrews 8
7 For if that first covenant had been faultless, then no place would have been sought for a second.
8 Because finding fault with them, He says: “Behold, the days are coming, says the Lord, when I will make a new covenant with the house of Israel and with the house of Judah—
9 not according to the covenant that I made with their fathers in the day when I took them by the hand to lead them out of the land of Egypt; because they did not continue in My covenant, and I disregarded them, says the Lord.
10 For this is the covenant that I will make with the house of Israel after those days, says the Lord: I will put My laws in their mind and write them on their hearts; and I will be their God, and they shall be My people.
11 None of them shall teach his neighbor, and none his brother, saying, ‘Know the Lord,’ for all shall know Me, from the least of them to the greatest of them.
12 For I will be merciful to their unrighteousness, and their sins and their lawless deeds I will remember no more.”
13 In that He says, “A new covenant,” He has made the first obsolete. Now what is becoming obsolete and growing old is ready to vanish away.

Hebrews 9
11 But Christ came as High Priest of the good things to come, with the greater and more perfect tabernacle not made with hands, that is, not of this creation.
12 Not with the blood of goats and calves, but with His own blood He entered the Most Holy Place once for all, having obtained eternal redemption.
13 For if the blood of bulls and goats and the ashes of a heifer, sprinkling the unclean, sanctifies for the purifying of the flesh,
14 how much more shall the blood of Christ, who through the eternal Spirit offered Himself without spot to God, cleanse your conscience from dead works to serve the living God?
15 And for this reason He is the Mediator of the new covenant, by means of death, for the redemption of the transgressions under the first covenant, that those who are called may receive the promise of the eternal inheritance.


The Old Covenant is gone.

Here is the New Covenant.


Matthew 22
34 But when the Pharisees heard that He had silenced the Sadducees, they gathered together.
35 Then one of them, a lawyer, asked Him a question, testing Him, and saying,
36 “Teacher, which is the great commandment in the law?”

37 Jesus said to him, “‘You shall love the Lord your God with all your heart, with all your soul, and with all your mind.’
38 This is the first and great commandment.
39 And the second is like it: ‘You shall love your neighbor as yourself.’
40 On these two commandments hang all the Law and the Prophets.”

Romans 13
8 Owe no one anything except to love one another, for he who loves another has fulfilled the law.
9 For the commandments,
“You shall not commit adultery,”
“You shall not murder,”
“You shall not steal,”
“You shall not bear false witness,”
“You shall not covet,”
and if there is any other commandment, are all summed up in this saying, namely, “You shall love your neighbor as yourself.”
10 Love does no harm to a neighbor; therefore love is the fulfillment of the law.



It should be noted that the Old Covenant was given to the Hebrews, not the Gentiles.

The New Covenant (Jesus) provides sanctuary for everyone, Jew and Gentile.


John 3
16 For God so loved the world that He gave His only begotten Son, that whosoever believes in Him should not perish, but have everlasting Life.


This is how I respond to those types of questions.

.

 

[Edward]

My response would be something similar to this:

The passage from Deuteronomy is a part of the the Old Covenant, the Old Covenant no longer exists. It was replaced by the New Covenant.

Hebrews 8
7 For if that first covenant had been faultless, then no place would have been sought for a second.
8 Because finding fault with them, He says: “Behold, the days are coming, says the Lord, when I will make a new covenant with the house of Israel and with the house of Judah—
9 not according to the covenant that I made with their fathers in the day when I took them by the hand to lead them out of the land of Egypt; because they did not continue in My covenant, and I disregarded them, says the Lord.
10 For this is the covenant that I will make with the house of Israel after those days, says the Lord: I will put My laws in their mind and write them on their hearts; and I will be their God, and they shall be My people.
11 None of them shall teach his neighbor, and none his brother, saying, ‘Know the Lord,’ for all shall know Me, from the least of them to the greatest of them.
12 For I will be merciful to their unrighteousness, and their sins and their lawless deeds I will remember no more.”
13 In that He says, “A new covenant,” He has made the first obsolete. Now what is becoming obsolete and growing old is ready to vanish away.

Hebrews 9
11 But Christ came as High Priest of the good things to come, with the greater and more perfect tabernacle not made with hands, that is, not of this creation.
12 Not with the blood of goats and calves, but with His own blood He entered the Most Holy Place once for all, having obtained eternal redemption.
13 For if the blood of bulls and goats and the ashes of a heifer, sprinkling the unclean, sanctifies for the purifying of the flesh,
14 how much more shall the blood of Christ, who through the eternal Spirit offered Himself without spot to God, cleanse your conscience from dead works to serve the living God?
15 And for this reason He is the Mediator of the new covenant, by means of death, for the redemption of the transgressions under the first covenant, that those who are called may receive the promise of the eternal inheritance.


The Old Covenant is gone.

Here is the New Covenant.


Matthew 22
34 But when the Pharisees heard that He had silenced the Sadducees, they gathered together.
35 Then one of them, a lawyer, asked Him a question, testing Him, and saying,
36 “Teacher, which is the great commandment in the law?”

37 Jesus said to him, “‘You shall love the Lord your God with all your heart, with all your soul, and with all your mind.’
38 This is the first and great commandment.
39 And the second is like it: ‘You shall love your neighbor as yourself.’
40 On these two commandments hang all the Law and the Prophets.”

Romans 13
8 Owe no one anything except to love one another, for he who loves another has fulfilled the law.
9 For the commandments,
“You shall not commit adultery,”
“You shall not murder,”
“You shall not steal,”
“You shall not bear false witness,”
“You shall not covet,”
and if there is any other commandment, are all summed up in this saying, namely, “You shall love your neighbor as yourself.”
10 Love does no harm to a neighbor; therefore love is the fulfillment of the law.



It should be noted that the Old Covenant was given to the Hebrews, not the Gentiles.

The New Covenant (Jesus) provides sanctuary for everyone, Jew and Gentile.


John 3
16 For God so loved the world that He gave His only begotten Son, that whosoever believes in Him should not perish, but have everlasting Life.


This is how I respond to those types of questions.

.

Agreed brother. Check this our brother Gary...something I was thinking about the other day. look at the format of the 10 commandments. The first 3 commandments are (loosely speaking) how we are to treat god.
The last 6 commandments are how we are to treat man.

Separating them is the commandment about the Sabbath. It can't be inserted into how we are to treat God list, because scripture says, the Sabbath was made for man, not man for the Sabbath. Likewise, it can't be inserted into the list of how we are to treat others, because, well, it's obvious. Remember the Sabbath day is not someones birthday or something...lol. It's about US, how we treat ourselves.

I find this interesting that this is above the commandments which encapsulate the ideal of loving others as ourself. It's about rest. Be good to yourself. It has been said that, how can one love others if they don't love themselves first. Now, uh...this takes off into an entire different discussion than the topic and probably deserves it's own thread, so I wont go any further here, though it's related in a way.

We can't go around being judgmental to others. Even if we know that what they have done is wrong. So in these instances, what I do, is to put the shoe on the other foot and imagine that it had been me that did that sin. Would I want to be put to death for it? Certainly not! I made a mistake, I will learn from this, I wont do it again, give me a break...that's how we think when it is us who have done wrong.

If we are to love others as ourself, and we would want to give ourselves a break, then this sentiment should be applied to the other person. We all sin. We all live and learn. We all want to be loved, even if we have done wrong. We want compassion and sympathy...so we must give it also. Like Gary posted, Love does no harm to a neighbor; therefore love is the fulfillment of the law. This is where we are supposed to be at in our hearts on this issue. Be careful how harshly that you judge people, for the same measure will be measured unto you again!

And if it's some sort of sin which deserves death...well, that's between them and God and none of our beeswax.

 

[jasonc]

I have no problem with the death penalty if the convicted did the crime. key being if.

 

[Brother Mike]

Hello everyone,

I was born in a Christian family but never religious and i like to mix around with people from other faith. Many occasions i was questioned by non-christian friends who cited violent passage from the bible to criticize my faith.
Example:
Deuteronomy 13:6-9


6 “If your brother, your mother’s son, or your son or daughter, or the wife [a]you cherish, or your friend who is as your own soul, entice you secretly, saying, ‘Let us go and serve other gods’ (whom neither you nor your fathers have known, 7 of the gods of the peoples who are around you, near you or far from you, from one end of the earth to the other end), 8 you shall not yield to him or listen to him; and your eye shall not pity him, nor shall you spare or conceal him. 9 But you shall surely kill him; your hand shall be first against him to put him to death, and afterwards the hand of all the people.

What will be the appropriate response?

We can't kill them. Its against the law. We are told though that but cause of Jesus there is grace that was not available in the OT. (See JLB post) we are told not to be yoked withthem and be examples.

 

[Christ_empowered]

OT Law was completely different. My Baby Christian guess is that God had to lay down a lot of harsh rules to create a people whose lives were demonstrably different from the lives of those around them, whose lives belonged to Him (if not all the individuals then the group, as a whole). Out of that group came The Savior of Mankind, who fulfilled and replaced the OT Law with grace.

 

[for_his_glory]

2Corinthians 1:20 For all the promises of God in him are yea, and in him Amen, unto the glory of God by us.

Many think of Gods promises to be His blessings upon His children, but yet neglect the promises also include what happens to those who reject Him. Have them read Deuteronomy Chapter 27 as this is God speaking through Moses to show what happens to those who do not hearken diligently unto His voice. Man is violent towards God, but God loves even the sinner, but despises their actions and wants man to come back to His mercy and grace.

 

[Jethro Bodine]

Hello everyone,

I was born in a Christian family but never religious and i like to mix around with people from other faith. Many occasions i was questioned by non-christian friends who cited violent passage from the bible to criticize my faith.
Example:
Deuteronomy 13:6-9


6 “If your brother, your mother’s son, or your son or daughter, or the wife [a]you cherish, or your friend who is as your own soul, entice you secretly, saying, ‘Let us go and serve other gods’ (whom neither you nor your fathers have known, 7 of the gods of the peoples who are around you, near you or far from you, from one end of the earth to the other end), 8 you shall not yield to him or listen to him; and your eye shall not pity him, nor shall you spare or conceal him. 9 But you shall surely kill him; your hand shall be first against him to put him to death, and afterwards the hand of all the people.

What will be the appropriate response?

All by itself, serving false gods is an offense worthy of death. You can't serve a false god without it leading you into some kind of sin. That's why it's forbidden.

When confronted with the time you must put someone to death for what they have done that is worthy of death, if you're honest with yourself you'd realize you yourself are guilty of something that is worthy of death, too. God's intention being that the harsh reality of our sin and God's necessary justice in judging it would lead us to God's mercy.

Through this law He's driving home the case for our guilt--all of us, not just the person lucky enough to have his sin worthy of death in the headlines. And not so he can condemn us, but so we would fall on his mercy and seek his forgiveness and come to repentance, and live:

"23 "Do I have any pleasure in the death of the wicked," declares the Lord GOD, "rather than that he should turn from his ways and live?" (Ezekiel 18:23 NASB)

Some might argue that not putting the person worthy of death to death is breaking the law. Well, there's two arguments that can be made about that. 1) Mercy is a greater principle of God's that trumps the law of justice (James 2:12-13 NASB), and 2) Christ's death on the cross is the death for sin that God's justice demands. You can either take his payment of that debt, or pay it yourself. Your choice.

 

[follower]

good. (Yhvh's Justice/Truth and Mercy).

note that in the O.T./Torah/Tanakh, Yhvh sometimes explains why every man, woman and child is to be put to death. Yhvh never is required to explain why - just like the potter is never required to explain anything to the clay He is working, why some is remade or remolded or molded a certain way, and why some is thrown away never to be used.
Yhvh is always right. mankind is practically always wrong (even when they seem right).

 

[JPPT1974]

Unfortunately violence did happen. In the Bible whether we think about it or not. As you do something wrong like hurt an innocent person. Like hurt an innocent woman or child. You have to suffer the consequences. Or when the Israel people grumbled against God and felt He could had done more after they wandered for forty years. Despite the fact He went as always beyond the call of duty and out of His way like He always does. But that was not enough for them.

He had the Babylonians capture them and took away everything. Point is when sin entered the world in the Garden of Good and Evil, it has never been perfect nor never will be.

 

[Edward]

Generally speaking, if we are to have the mind of Christ, then we are to of course have and seek an intimate relationship with Him, and allow Him to do his work through us. He wants to increase His harvest and is not willing that any should perish. If we think about the two greatest commandments...(love God with all your heart, and love your neighbor as yourself...Then, we in effect, have a two way relationship with our Lord. You with me?

As we are in relationship with our Lord above, so should we be to all of our brothers and sisters around us. To have the same heart for them, that we do for our Lord. Does this make sense?

(It is then, that the rivers of life will flow out of our bellies unto the world.)

 

[Reverend J. Breeze]

There is only one God, we should not forget this. The fact of the matter is, violent versus can be found in the Bible, however it was written many years ago. Times have changed and the text should not be taken as pure instructions on each verse.
We forget that some of the text could be misinterpreted in translation too so this is also a possible factor.
Personally it has never bothered me; God will guide us.

 

[WIP]

Who are we to question God or God's motives? What God does, God does.

Romans 9:15
For He says to Moses, “I will have mercy on whomever I will have mercy, and I will have compassion on whomever I will have compassion.”

 

[Drew]

While I agree with many posters who have asserted that the Law of Moses is now retired - it was only for Jews in the first place anyway - I suspect the non-Christian will reply with something like this: "But why would God ever demand death for such an offence, or for offences like a woman not being a virgin at marriage?"

These are very difficult questions - I know of no way to "defend" what certainly appear to be cruel and sexist laws in the Law of Moses.

 

[Adstar]

In the Old Testament the price of unforgiven sin was death.
In the New Testament the price of unforgiven sin is still death.
In the Old Testament the execution was often carried out by men upon men.
In the New Testament God shall carry out the execution at the final judgement. Jesus has taken judgement out of our hands.
So the law and the result is the same but the process and procedures of the law has changed post Jesus.

 

[Drew]

In the Old Testament the price of unforgiven sin was death.
In the New Testament the price of unforgiven sin is still death.

What do you mean by "price"? If you are implicitly appealing to a kind of "retribution / punishment" model, then there is still a big problem. And it is this: if we imagine God to have a character that lines up with our vision of moral perfection, then we have the odd situation in which God appears to be vindictive and vengeful; after all, are we called on by Jesus to extract punishment on those who do evil? Certainly not, and certainly not death.

I hope my point is clear: I find it highly improbable that God insists that all sin has to be punished by death. Why would this be so, especially since such an inclinations strikes almost all of us as immature. After all, we would be outraged if any parent carried out the death penalty against a misbehaving child. So why on earth would a loving God have this "sin must be punished by death" principle?

I suspect you will say that, my objections notwithstanding, this principle is there in the Bible. But that is to beg the question - you will need to make an actual case to this effect, and not simply make a statement, like you have in your post.

I believe Jesus had to die, but not because God was in any sense punishing Jesus on our behalf. On my understanding, sin is a kind of virus or force that needs to de-activated (or wiped clean - expiated). This is what I think happened on the cross.

I hope I have not misunderstood your post.

 

[Adstar]

"""What do you mean by "price"? If you are implicitly appealing to a kind of "retribution / punishment" model, then there is still a big problem. And it is this: if we imagine God to have a character that lines up with our vision of moral perfection, then we have the odd situation in which God appears to be vindictive and vengeful; after all, are we called on by Jesus to extract punishment on those who do evil? Certainly not, and certainly not death."""

The just price/penalty of sin is death. Not just physical death but the second death in the Eternal lake of fire.. The penalty for unforgiven sin today is death. This has always been the same. Anyone who falls short of the perfection of Gods standards are under that death penalty. God being perfect cannot turn a blind eye to imperfection and thus all things that are imperfect must be excluded from his eternal perfect existence. That's why we humans need the Atonement of the Messiah Jesus to obtain the Mercy / forgiveness of God. This is the only way we shall be granted eternal existence with God. If that appears vindictive to you then i can do nothing about that. We are not called upon by God to punish anyone that is true. God himself will carry out judgement upon the day of Judgement.

""""I hope my point is clear: I find it highly improbable that God insists that all sin has to be punished by death. Why would this be so, especially since such an inclinations strikes almost all of us as immature. After all, we would be outraged if any parent carried out the death penalty against a misbehaving child. So why on earth would a loving God have this "sin must be punished by death" principle?""""

Yes your point is clear.. You think as a man, You have a relative form of judgement, you have your own personal pass mark of "goodness" where you asses someone to be a good person. Most human beings think like that. Your pass mark might be 50% or 60% or 80% since your not perfect, this is understandable, The problem with this thinking when we project it onto God is that God is Perfect. So only a perfect 100% score is a pass with Him. Therefore all sins must be judged. He cannot overlook sins. Unless we are in a position where He can justly forgive us of all our sins. We do that by believing Jesus and trusting in His perfect righteousness and work on the cross where He payed the price for the sins of all who would come to believe Him and trust in Him. All you need to realize that God is Perfect and Eternity shall be perfect and no unforgiven sinner will have part in that eternal existence..

""""I believe Jesus had to die, but not because God was in any sense punishing Jesus on our behalf. On my understanding, sin is a kind of virus or force that needs to de-activated (or wiped clean - expiated). This is what I think happened on the cross.

I hope I have not misunderstood your post.""""

Jesus did not wipe out sin or deactivate sin. for we all sin today. and the world is full of sin. Jesus paid the price of sin for those whom believe and trust in His payment.. Jesus died to remove the curse of the Law. and the curse of the law was and is the Eternal death sentence. I think i have understood your post. I think your view of what Jesus did is wrong..

I hope i have been clear in my reply.

 

[Drew]

Jesus did not wipe out sin or deactivate sin. for we all sin today.....

My choice of words may not have been that great. In Romans 8:3, Paul writes that at the Cross, God condemned sin. This, I suggest, demonstrates that it is indeed "sin" - which Paul sees as a "force" or "power" (see Romans 7) - that is the real target of God's wrath. In addition, somewhere in Colossians (I think), Paul writes that on the cross, the powers and principalities were disarmed.

So I think it is quite clear that whatever else might have happened at the cross, there was indeed an element of defeating the power of sin (or the power of Satan, if you would prefer). Yes, we still sin, but that does not mean that the power of sin has not been dealt a significant blow.

I don't think I said that sin was "wiped out" - I said it was wiped away. This is simply the standard theology of expiation - that at the Cross, our sins (this time with sin conceived as a stain, or impurity - Paul's model of "sin" is multi-dimensional), were indeed wiped clean.