How do we determine the TRUTH?

[francisdesales]

Re-Invent Himself? Not hardly.

Actually, that is what you are saying.

The first Christians are told God is a Trinity. That Jesus is Divine. Now, 1900 years later, the "spirit" tells you something different. Nothing personal, but you are not believable on this.

But what we have evidence of is that He RE INTRODUCED Himself OVER AND OVER throughout the relationship. For men had a 'tendency' to FORGET WHO God was OVER AND OVER.

And some men never knew Him...

Choosing to follow 'gods' of their OWN creation ...

Yes, you took the words out of my mouth...

I believe THAT is what we witness today. That it has been SO LONG since men have SOUGHT the 'true God' that it IS TIME that we 'start OVER' with TRUTH instead of 'created truth'.

Baloney. Men have constantly sought after God. There is no interruption of man's desire to know God. This is just more fantasy to justify your position.

NO, ALL have NEVER been led astray. But we can certainly see, time and again, where MOST were. A 'reminant' have ALWAYS existed. Even counting Noah in HIS time. Lot in his time. Abraham in his time. Moses in his time, etc, etc. And even the 'time of Christ' PLAINLY shows that men had VEERED from 'the truth' and Christ was sent to 'set things right again'. But ALWAYS a 'reminant' remained. Even IN THE END, a 'reminant' will REMAIN.

The idea that you are the "remnant" is not convincing to anyone.

Fran, Let me offer this: 'Straight is the gate and narrow the way that leadeth unto life and FEW there be that find it.

Not speaking of doctrinal truths, but faith working in love. Dying to self. Being humble when a "spirit" is telling you that you have a direct pipeline to "God"... THAT is the "narrow way". Read the context of the pericope.

An 'oranization' for the SAKE of 'organizing' does NOT 'truth' make. Only in the sense that an 'organization' is ABLE to create it's OWN truth.

I'm just going by what the Scriptures say. It says to follow my leaders placed over me by the Lord. It says that certain men have the power to forgive sins in the name of the Lord. I guess I missed that chapter that says "follow yourself, as you godlings"

I would suggest you do a serious study on the role of authority in the Bible. Both OT and NT. Not whether it was abused, but for what reason GOD HIMSELF assigned an heirarchy within the Church and for what purpose. Read about what happened in Scriptures when people flouted the concept of authority placed over them (read Numbers or 1 Corinthians, for example.) It appears to me that you have ignored that aspect of Sacred Writ to keep your "system" of false gods afloat...

Regards

 

[Imagican]

Fran,

the ONLY offerings that we have concerning the ELDERS or 'church LEADERS' is that pertaining to Bishops and Deacons. Perhaps it is YOU who should read concerning THESE. What their PURPOSE is and what they MUST BE in order to HOLD such positions. For we are told that 'he will be GREATEST among us who SERVE the MOST. And to even HOLD such a position, one of the FIRST conditions is that they BE BLAMELESS.

I have 'made up' nothing so far as scripture is concerned. I have simply chosen to bow to the will of God instead of men.

We were NEVER commanded to BOW to MEN. The apostles wouldn't even LET others bow to them. These WERE those that SERVED their fellow MEN rather than requiring that men SERVE THEM. Yet YOU would contend that the apostolic succession still exists today. But those that YOU would offer as apostles insist that men FOLLOW THEM rather than God through Christ. Bowing to THEM and worshiping THEM in utter contradiction to The Word.

I can see that 'truth' is certainly SUBJECTIVE in the 'religion' that YOU follow. Subject TO those that have decided and determined that THEIR truth is more impotant than The Truth. And for this cause, they have become and remain BLIND to that which God WOULD have them KNOW.

Blessings,

MEC

 

[francisdesales]

the ONLY offerings that we have concerning the ELDERS or 'church LEADERS' is that pertaining to Bishops and Deacons.

So who is your bishop in your community of one???

 

[dadof10]

I would suggest you do a serious study on the role of authority in the Bible. Both OT and NT. Not whether it was abused, but for what reason GOD HIMSELF assigned an heirarchy within the Church and for what purpose. Read about what happened in Scriptures when people flouted the concept of authority placed over them (read Numbers or 1 Corinthians, for example.) It appears to me that you have ignored that aspect of Sacred Writ to keep your "system" of false gods afloat...

Great point, Joe. Many only study the negative aspects and abuse of authority (e.g. the Pharisees), completely ignoring the many examples of proper, Biblical early Church teaching authority (Acts 15). I wonder why???

 

[Imagican]

the ONLY offerings that we have concerning the ELDERS or 'church LEADERS' is that pertaining to Bishops and Deacons.

So who is your bishop in your community of one???

I haven't FOUND ONE yet. I have found PLENTY of 'pretenders' but have YET to find one that MEETS the qualifications as laid down in The Word.

Since we have been fortold in Revelation that upon the time of 'tribulations' there will be a VERY FEW of the VERY ELECT, is it ANY SUPRISE that we find ourselves NOW almost UTTERLY devoid of them that follow the TRUTH?

For when Satan manifests himself upon this planet, he will PROCLAIM to BE GOD. And the WORLD will FOLLOW HIM. Therefore it ONLY stands to reason that the 'falling away' that we were foretold as well, has ALREADY taken place. The seeds were planted HUNDREDS UPON HUNDREDS of years ago and they seedlings have become TREES. Religion will NOT wane but TRUTH will and HAS.

So, since there are so few that even UNDERSTAND the truth, there are even LESS that FOLLOW it.

But it is NO DIFFERENT now than in times past. For when the persecutions of the varied churches of the past took place, I am certain that there were those that found themselves in the EXACT postition that I now find myself. MOST would follow WHATEVER simply to BE following. But I choose to follow where I am led IN Spirit and that will NOT allow me to submit myself to that which is NOT truth simply for the sake of 'following men'.

A Bishop MUST be 'blameless' and I have found NONE that fit this description.

Blessings,

MEC

 

[Imagican]

Oh, and Fran,

There is a MAJOR difference in a "LEADER'' and a "Commander''. What I have witnessed, those that would PRETEND to BE 'leaders' of the LATTER sort.

Blessings,

MEC

 

[Solo]

A Bishop MUST be 'blameless' and I have found NONE that fit this description.

Blessings,

MEC

Quit hanging onto false teachings, and quit looking for 'blameless' in the corridors of the false teachers and you will find some.

 

[Imagican]

Solo,

ALL I am ABLE to do is that which I am LED to do. To go 'against' that would be to go 'against' MY faith.

I TRUST in The Word for that is what I have been INSTRUCTED to DO. I am NOT willing to compromise MY faith for that which simply 'conforms' to the will of men.

While I am NOT perfect nor will I EVER BE, I am certainly able to SEE. That MOST have simply 'sold out' for the sake of 'fitting in' is NOT a direction that I CHOOSE to follow. I don't even know if I could if I WANTED to.

Blessings,

MEC

 

[francisdesales]

A Bishop MUST be 'blameless' and I have found NONE that fit this description.

Not sure whether you are looking for a perfect person as "blameless" or one who never sinned before... If so, this is an excuse.

However, an ordinary Christian IS "blameless" after they confess their sins to God. God tosses our sins aside and casts no more guilt towards us when we repent (whether you go to God directly or through a priest is inconsequential here, God still has totally forgiven sin).

Do you require the Scripture citations?

You just need to go outside your living room to find someone blameless, Imagican. There are numerous Christians who God considers "blameless" and are rightfully called "elders" or "bishops" or "overseers"...

Regards

 

[Solo]

Solo,

ALL I am ABLE to do is that which I am LED to do. To go 'against' that would be to go 'against' MY faith.

I TRUST in The Word for that is what I have been INSTRUCTED to DO. I am NOT willing to compromise MY faith for that which simply 'conforms' to the will of men.

While I am NOT perfect nor will I EVER BE, I am certainly able to SEE. That MOST have simply 'sold out' for the sake of 'fitting in' is NOT a direction that I CHOOSE to follow. I don't even know if I could if I WANTED to.

Blessings,

MEC

Name one church that the Apostle Paul wrote to in his letters that was perfect in all that they taught.

Name one Apostle that was perfect in all that he did.

If you are looking for a perfect church, DO NOT fellowship with them, for then it will become an imperfect church.

 

[Imagican]

Fran,

Your interpretation, by the mere NATURE of what YOU follow, is tainted. For it does not ONLY say that a Bishop MUST be 'blameless', it ALSO states that he MUST be the HUSBAND of ONE wife with CHILDREN. For HOW could he lead the family of GOD if he has NOT even learned to raise one of HIS OWN.

Your faith teaches that those that would BE Bishops are not even ABLE to wed. And here again, we were WARNED that there WOULD COME A TIME when those that were the LEADERS of 'religions' would FORBID to wed.

So, you and I will find it difficult to come to ANY common ground on such a subject. And it is 'not I' that would cause this 'rift' due to 'MY' understanding. It would be due to the FACT that you have chosen to 'buy into' that which makes it's OWN RULES. Taking away from the 'simplicity that IS Christ Jesus' and turning it into something 'different'.

Now, so far as 'truth' is concerned, did Paul ACCURATELY portray the will of God in his description of what a 'Bishop MUST BE', or were his words SIMPLY HIS OWN? That is the ONLY discussion that could possibly exist on this issue.

If his words were 'of God', then what you follow is 'different'. If they were merely HIS words, then the evidence points to 'falacy' offered up as FACT.

I simply choose to follow what is offered REGARDLESS of MY feelings. My feelings are forced to CONFORM to that which IS truth rather than 'create my own' because of my feelings.

Blessings,

MEC

 

[francisdesales]

Fran,

Your interpretation, by the mere NATURE of what YOU follow, is tainted. For it does not ONLY say that a Bishop MUST be 'blameless', it ALSO states that he MUST be the HUSBAND of ONE wife with CHILDREN. For HOW could he lead the family of GOD if he has NOT even learned to raise one of HIS OWN.

Tainted...?

You again misinterpret the passage.

It means one should not have been married more than once, not that they must CURRENTLY be married to become a bishop. Given the early expansion of the Church, most bishops in the very beginning were probably married men who converted, since most men were married. The idea is that a person married to the same woman would be more stable and mature. However, Paul tells us that it is BETTER to be a virgin, to be single, since then, one is not split in their loyalties. Jesus says the same thing.

Your faith teaches that those that would BE Bishops are not even ABLE to wed. And here again, we were WARNED that there WOULD COME A TIME when those that were the LEADERS of 'religions' would FORBID to wed.

First of all, there are exceptions. There are men who have BEEN married, and their wife died and then became priests. Also, Protestant pastors who convert are given dispensation to remain married and remain a pastor, if they so desire, by becoming a Catholic priest. This is a rule of the Latin rite in obedience to the concept above. However, Canon Law in Catholicism is not like tort law here. It is very flexible and more like European Law, where the judge has a lot of leeway to make his own decision. He is not bound by past rulings like in the American courts...

So, you and I will find it difficult to come to ANY common ground on such a subject. And it is 'not I' that would cause this 'rift' due to 'MY' understanding. It would be due to the FACT that you have chosen to 'buy into' that which makes it's OWN RULES. Taking away from the 'simplicity that IS Christ Jesus' and turning it into something 'different'.

I "buy into" the Scriptures. I submit myself to the Church because my conscience tells me I should, that God wants me to. You make up excuses to get around the Scriptures, just as the Jews who preached Korban, for the sake of making up your own rules... Adam, too, wanted to be like God, using his own "rationale" while obeying the devil. I don't see your case much different.

Now, so far as 'truth' is concerned, did Paul ACCURATELY portray the will of God in his description of what a 'Bishop MUST BE', or were his words SIMPLY HIS OWN? That is the ONLY discussion that could possibly exist on this issue.

He didn't say a bishop "MUST" be without exception...

Not all of the Apostles were married. Apparently, some continued to minister as elders in the Church...

If his words were 'of God', then what you follow is 'different'. If they were merely HIS words, then the evidence points to 'falacy' offered up as FACT.

I am confident that no matter what I say, or what the Scriptures say, you are going to do what you want to do. Hey, that's fine.

But don't preach your garbage to me and tell me it is "truth". Your offerings are making me sick, quite frankly. I tire of your presumptuous attitude that you are right and billions are wrong. You are not going to convince me that you have "truth" when you disregard what has already been established as truth by Christianity as an entire community, Catholic, Protestant, and Eastern Orthdox.

The Spirit has spoken already, but you will not listen. :verysad

 

[Imagican]

Fran,

My ENTIRE purpose in the responses that I offer is to SHOW that we are NOT BOUND to ANY 'man-made' churches. There is but ONE TRUE CHURCH and that IS The Body of Christ. And THAT is the TRUTH.

Yet men DID 'come along' and ALTER what was offered for the PURPOSES that we have been GIVEN: To make MERCHANDISE of them. To USE their 'laws' and their 'doctrines' to FORCE others to PAY them for the priveledge of TELLING them WHAT to DO.

I see NO power in such teachings. Only PHYSICAL power and NOTHING Spiritual.

You say that 'truth' is something that has GROWN since the death of Christ. I say JUST the OPPOSITE. That the 'truth' has ALL but been HIDDEN and DESTROYED since Christ.

You say that I am ABLE to live IN AND FOR this world, practice my voodoo, bow to statues, and pray to women so long as I am DEVOTED to a 'man-made' church. That, so long as my allegience remains entact TO A CHURCH, that this church is ABLE to grant ME Salvation.

I say that the TRUTH couldn't be further away from this.

We are to devote ourselves to God THROUGH His Son. Period. And NO ONE can DO this FOR us.
It is a PERSONAL obligation that ONLY we, as individuals, are ABLE to fulfill. Once the relationship IS established, ONLY THEN are we ABLE to witness and offer testimony to others.

I do understand the allure of such as YOU follow. It is SO MUCH easier to simply place EVERYTHING in the 'hands of others' and let THEM deal with it. Just show up once a week and on holidays, throw some money in a 'plate', say three 'hail Marys' and go about one's business as usual. MUCH easier to hold to such a 'belief system'.

But we have been commanded that WE ARE OUR BROTHERS KEEPERS. That it is up to US to show, individually, the EXAMPLE that has been offered usward. To follow the commandments of Christ which are: Love God with all your heart, mind and soul. Love your neighbor AS yourself. And we NEED no 'church' built by the 'hands of men' to LEAD us in this direction. ALL we NEED is The Spirit to GUIDE us.

Once again, LEADER does NOT MEAN 'commander'. Those that would be 'greatest among us' will be 'those that serve the MOST'. Yet in our 'modern churches', it would seem that we are taught that there ARE 'special people' chosen for us to FOLLOW. Yet the example was offered by Christ as to WHAT we are to FOLLOW. And I have YET to meet A person that is worthy of MY devotion.

So, I am NOT here to simply berate 'religions' for the sake of rebellion. I am here to warn others that they need to 'get BACK to the basics' and leave the WORLD to its own devices.

And the basics IN TRUTH are THIS:

LOVE God with ALL your heart, mind and soul. Love your NEIGHBOR AS YOURSELF. And IF you are ABLE to follow in the footsteps of Christ, you HAVE offered the example that we have been commanded.

All the 'rest' of the 'junk' that has been inserted into the 'truth' is but chaff and will one day be 'burnt and separated' from that which matters MOST.

LEARN LOVE and the rest will follow. Look to the wellfare of YOUR NEIGHABOR and YOUR well being will be 'taken care of'. STOP worrying about tomorrow and start FOCUSSING on TODAY. For EVERYDAY is the LORD'S DAY. Offer the LOVE that has been offered usward and you WILL abide in grace. Place your faith in GOD and His Son. And let NO MAN beguile you into an unnatural worship of 'angels', (or ANYTHING other than God AS God). Build your 'treasures IN HEAVEN' where they will be waiting for you when you arrive. And these be not gold or silver but charity and forgiveness.

Blessings,

MEC

 

[francisdesales]

Fran,

My ENTIRE purpose in the responses that I offer is to SHOW that we are NOT BOUND to ANY 'man-made' churches.

Then come out of that man-made "Church of Imagican". Practice what you preach to everyone here...

This, in a nutshell, is the irony of your conversations. YOURS is a man-made church with a man-made understanding. I have yet to figure out how you think you are any different than the typical sola scripturist. Do you really think that your Protestant antagonists are not blessed with the Spirit but you are, practicing the exact same thing of "read the Bible and it will all come to me"???

When that gets through your skull, let me know.

Until then, you are the poster child for "hypocrite" here on http://www.christianforums.net

Rail against the very thing you yourself practice...

The rest, I won't bother with, I am sure it says the same thing you've said time and time again... "I'm right, God tells me so, and all the other churches are wrong."

There is not one thing you have "offered" yet to allow me to believe any of that or any of your statements that just plain deny teachings of the Church. You just say "It is not so" without any backing, except your self-proclaimed wisdom and line to God... I have yet to see that in action.

Very rarely do you actually interpert Scriptures, or show a wise understanding of them, while your offerings consist of complaints, historical inaccuracies, rants, and pats on the backs. It is clear to me, the Spirit of God is not leading you, while contradicting Himself elsewhere.

 

[Imagican]

Fran,

From YOUR perspective, I am quite sure that what you have offered IS all that you ARE capable of 'seeing'.

I have offered MUCH scriptural interpretation over the course of debate that you and I have entertained. And 'accurate interpretation' if I might add.

I have offered MUCH history throughout our discussion, only to be ignored for the sake of 'particular bias'.

And, what's MORE important, I have offered truth in ways that is rarely GIVEN in this world in which we live today.

While I may well 'come off' as I KNOW and YOU DON'T, it is for the sake of truth that I speak AT ALL. I cannot help that so few even CARE to seek it that it 'appears' that I believe I am the ONLY one that has found it. I don't believe this for a second. There MUST be 'others' that know EXACTLY what I know. I have just found it difficult to FIND THEM.

I speak as I am LED to speak. If this is offensive to any then I would suggest that your anger be directed to THAT which LEADS me rather than MYSELF. If I speak the TRUTH, then why would you attempt to condemn me? If I speak the SAME words offered by God, Christ and His apostles, WHY would you condemn me? And if the words that I speak in truth ANGER YOU, why would that BE?

I am not HERE to SAVE YOU Fran. I am simply here to offer the truth as it has been revealed TO ME. If this is NOT what you choose to accept then that is 'on YOU'. But beware, when you ARE offered 'the truth' and refuse to accept it, your heart becomes hardened and it becomes EVEN MORE difficult to 'let go' of that which you have CHOSEN to 'hang on to'.

I offer that we are NOT bound to the devices of MEN unless we CHOOSE to be bound thus. I am NOT this 'church of one' that you continually label thus. I AM a 'part of the Body of Christ' and therefore a bonofide MEMBER of The Church OF Christ. Where ever the 'followers of Christ EXIST' so too will you find me there.

I find it amusing that your BIGGEST argument against ANYTHING that I offer that disagrees with YOUR beliefs is: "So, EVERYONE ELSE is wrong and YOU are RIGHT". Funny Fran, but the religion that you profess to follow has ALREADY TOLD YOU that the WORLD IS LOST. That is MOST of the individuals on THIS PLANET have CHOSEN to follow something OTHER THAN God through His Son. And that doesn't mean that they they have INTENTIONALLY turned their collective backs on God. It simply means that they have been DUPED into a belief in 'false gods'. Some are as passionate as the apostles EVER WERE. And for the sake of the VERY ELECT, God WILL cut these days SHORT so that THEY not be 'led astray' as well. These are words taught to you from your OWN religion. Yet you would choose to ignore them for the sake of what YOU BELIEVE.

Now, is God going to destroy a 'world full of GOOD people'? Never done it before and there is no indication He's going to start. Yet you follow a 'denomination' that has the LARGEST number of followers on the planet. Hmmmmm............. That in ITSELF should BE your CLUE as to it's legitimacy.

You insist that the MEN that 'created' YOUR religion knew MORE than YOU or I. That would negate the WHOLE purpose of Christ's coming. For Christ came to offer a 'different way' than that of MEN. He came to proclaim the Father and in doing so SHOW US The Father. He came in order that we could KNOW that there is a 'better way'.

Yet, JUST like the religious leaders of the days of Moses, it only took a MOMENT in time for them to 'ALTER' what was offered into that of their OWN MAKING, so too have the 'religious leaders' of today done the SAME THING. Creating their OWN religion in the NAME of Christ.

Fran, Christ stated that there would come a TIME that MANY would come to Him offering, "Look at all the worderous THINGS we have done in YOUR NAME". And His answer to these is: "Go away from me for I know NOT who you are". Give me an HONEST answer to this ONE question: WHO are THESE refered to in this event? Who are 'those that did such WONDEROUS things IN THE NAME OF CHRIST, yet Christ DOESN'T even KNOW them?

Blessings,

MEC

 

[francisdesales]

Fran,

From YOUR perspective, I am quite sure that what you have offered IS all that you ARE capable of 'seeing'.

I have offered MUCH scriptural interpretation over the course of debate that you and I have entertained. And 'accurate interpretation' if I might add.

No, you haven't. You have not presented verses and provided exegesis of those verses. You make vague statements about something in Scriptures, but usually, you take it out of context and twist it to try to support your pet theories.

One sterling example is your fiasco about seeing God...

As to "accuracy", just saying it doesn't make it so. Most of your musings on theology are fit for the bird cage floor, frankly. There are so many holes in them, it is obvious you have given little thought to your ideas. Your concept of the relationship between God and Jesus is atrociously naive...

I see no further point in continuing this conversation. You have a "god-complex", so I am wasting my time.