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How do we discern what is legalism and what is allowed?

ok...i read somewhere, probably rc sproul...

everyone is required to acknowledge Jesus as Lord and obey Him. its part of being human, apparently. but...

because The Fall, it doesn't happen...

unless one is part of The Elect, and The Holy Ghost regenerates the individual, bringing him out of death (dead in sins, dead in our trespasses, spiritually dead, etc.) and into life and that more abundantly in Christ.

I saw an illustration of this, once...2 parallel lines, and then one begins to turn a corner, diverge. I think that helped me -get it- , better+more completely. :)
 
Bull of the Woods said:
Romans 2:14 (Indeed, when Gentiles, who do not have the law, do by nature things required by the law, they are a law for themselves, even though they do not have the law. 15 They show that the requirements of the law are written on their hearts, their consciences also bearing witness, and their thoughts sometimes accusing them and at other times even defending them.)
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I know this verse B.
It doesn't apply here.

The above verse works as does Romans 1:19-20 for those that are AWARE of God and wish to please Him.

Unsaved persons that are not aware of God do NOT care to please Him...they don't even BELIEVE in Him.

I don't understand why this is not understood.
!!
 
Christ_empowered said:
ok. i was going to post this link in a separate, new thread...but...

even the tiniest sin in those outside of Christ can bring God's wrath. it is what it is. apparently, God does -not- play the 'hate the sin, love the sinner' game...

'Jacob have I loved, Esau have I hated,' etc.

https://www.ligonier.org/blog/it-true-god-loves-sinner-hates-sin/
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If Jesus said to love our neighbor...
And Jesus is God....
How do you suppose GOD would hate His very own creation?
 
wondering said:
I know this verse B.
It doesn't apply here.

The above verse works as does Romans 1:19-20 for those that are AWARE of God and wish to please Him.

Unsaved persons that are not aware of God do NOT care to please Him...they don't even BELIEVE in Him.

I don't understand why this is not understood.
!!
Click to expand...
Not believing doesn't remove the requirement.
 
wondering said:
That's an interesting concept.
You're entitled to your belief.

But could you explain WHY to me?
Why would a non-believer, atheist person, be required to obey the commandments of God?
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Either the commandments or what is written in their hearts.
But I didn't say it is expected that they can.
You have heard it said "Ignorance of the law is no excuse" with regard to government laws?
 
Bull of the Woods said:
Either the commandments or what is written in their hearts.
But I didn't say it is expected that they can.
You have heard it said "Ignorance of the law is no excuse" with regard to government laws?
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B,
What does man-made govt laws have to do with what we're discussing?

If I break a govt law I go to prison...not hell.

I think you're veering off course.

Be back later.
 
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wondering said:
Scripture belongs to those that are saved as far as INSTRUCTION goes. Those that are NOT saved...do not go to scripture for instruction.
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The instructions were given to us before they were put down in writing. It's why we no longer have access to Eden. We failed to obey and now suffer the consequences of our actions. All are condemned already because we don't believe, trust, and obey.

Consider Matthew 25:31-46. All will be judged under the law including non-believers.
 
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WIP said:
The instructions were given to us before they were put down in writing. It's why we no longer have access to Eden. We failed to obey and now suffer the consequences of our actions. All are condemned already because we don't believe, trust, and obey.

Consider Matthew 25:31-46. All will be judged under the law including non-believers.
Click to expand...



You mean, even if the flood didn't wash it away we wouldn't have access to it, because if I remember correctly that's another big reason why we can't get there. Even if we could get there, I'm not sure whether or not we would be able to locate it on a map.
 
HeIsRisen2018 said:
You mean, even if the flood didn't wash it away we wouldn't have access to it, because if I remember correctly that's another big reason why we can't get there. Even if we could get there, I'm not sure whether or not we would be able to locate it on a map.
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What I mean is we are all without excuse.
18 For the wrath of God is revealed from heaven against all ungodliness and unrighteousness of men, who suppress the truth in unrighteousness, 19 because what may be known of God is manifest in them, for God has shown it to them. 20 For since the creation of the world His invisible attributes are clearly seen, being understood by the things that are made, even His eternal power and Godhead, so that they are without excuse, 21 because, although they knew God, they did not glorify Him as God, nor were thankful, but became futile in their thoughts, and their foolish hearts were darkened. Romans 1:18-21 NKJV

Here's more.
12 For as many as have sinned without law will also perish without law, and as many as have sinned in the law will be judged by the law 13 (for not the hearers of the law are just in the sight of God, but the doers of the law will be justified; 14 for when Gentiles, who do not have the law, by nature do the things in the law, these, although not having the law, are a law to themselves, 15 who show the work of the law written in their hearts, their conscience also bearing witness, and between themselves their thoughts accusing or else excusing them) 16 in the day when God will judge the secrets of men by Jesus Christ, according to my gospel. Romans 2:12-16 NKJV
 
WIP said:
What I mean is we are all without excuse.
18 For the wrath of God is revealed from heaven against all ungodliness and unrighteousness of men, who suppress the truth in unrighteousness, 19 because what may be known of God is manifest in them, for God has shown it to them. 20 For since the creation of the world His invisible attributes are clearly seen, being understood by the things that are made, even His eternal power and Godhead, so that they are without excuse, 21 because, although they knew God, they did not glorify Him as God, nor were thankful, but became futile in their thoughts, and their foolish hearts were darkened. Romans 1:18-21 NKJV

Here's more.
12 For as many as have sinned without law will also perish without law, and as many as have sinned in the law will be judged by the law 13 (for not the hearers of the law are just in the sight of God, but the doers of the law will be justified; 14 for when Gentiles, who do not have the law, by nature do the things in the law, these, although not having the law, are a law to themselves, 15 who show the work of the law written in their hearts, their conscience also bearing witness, and between themselves their thoughts accusing or else excusing them) 16 in the day when God will judge the secrets of men by Jesus Christ, according to my gospel. Romans 2:12-16 NKJV
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Yeah, I know what you meant I was just trying to make a point of saying that even if Adam and Eve weren't banished from the Garden of Eden it's probably gone anyways.
 
It is true that those who are not saved won't change the outcome by following the law....or would they? Is it not a law that all are to believe? Jesus said the greatest commandment is to love God with all our heart, mind, soul, and strength. Can we love something we don't believe in?
 
WIP said:
The instructions were given to us before they were put down in writing. It's why we no longer have access to Eden. We failed to obey and now suffer the consequences of our actions. All are condemned already because we don't believe, trust, and obey.

Consider Matthew 25:31-46. All will be judged under the law including non-believers.
Click to expand...
I agree with the above.

Non believers are already judged however...
John 3:18

But they will still appear at the White Throne Judgement.
 
WIP said:
It is true that those who are not saved won't change the outcome by following the law....or would they? Is it not a law that all are to believe? Jesus said the greatest commandment is to love God with all our heart, mind, soul, and strength. Can we love something we don't believe in?
Click to expand...



Umm,.. are you talking to me, somebody else, or all of us? Sorry, I'm not quite sure who this comment was directed at. :confused
 
wondering said:
I don't understand your first paragraph,,,it just muddies the water.
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The angle I was approaching Romans 5:8 from is that it says "While we were yet sinners...." What is a sinner except one that transgresses the law. We are all sinners for also in Romans 3:23 and again in 5:12 Paul reminds us that we have all fallen short of the glory of God for all have sinned (transgressed the law). Not just those who have been saved.

After all, what are we saved from? We are saved from the condemnation that comes through the law, are we not?
 
WIP said:
The angle I was approaching Romans 5:8 from is that it says "While we were yet sinners...." What is a sinner except one that transgresses the law. We are all sinners for also in Romans 3:23 and again in 5:12 Paul reminds us that we have all fallen short of the glory of God for all have sinned (transgressed the law). Not just those who have been saved.

After all, what are we saved from? We are saved from the condemnation that comes through the law, are we not?
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Jesus died for the whole world...He draws all men to Himself.
John 12:32

Once we are saved we are expected to obey Jesus.
John 3:36 says that if we do not obey Jesus we will not see life but the wrath of God.

An unsaved, natural man cannot not even understand the bible.
1 Corinthians 2:14
 
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