JackrabbitSlim
Member
- Dec 11, 2022
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I hold to Traducianism. What are y'alls beliefs?
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Desire to be a vessel of honor unto the Lord Jesus Christ?
Join Hidden in Him and For His Glory for discussions on how
https://christianforums.net/threads/become-a-vessel-of-honor-part-2.112306/
How Do We Get our Soul and Spirit?
- Thread starter JackrabbitSlim
- Start date
We get our soul through Adam. A body with mind will and emotions breathed into it.
Continued life was by eating of the tree of life. Genesis (old Covenant).
We get our spirit through the born again experience. Law placed in new heart and the mind of Christ in us (in heart and mind). Eternal life comes from the work of Christ Jesus.
Acts (new covenant / one new man).
Mississippi redneck
eddif
Continued life for Adam and Eve depended on their being obedient to the command to not eat from the forbidden tree.
Genesis 2:7 says, "And the LORD God formed man of the dust of the ground, and breathed into his nostrils the breath of life; and man became a living soul."
From this scripture it shows that God created us as Souls not that he gave us Souls. So many believe that God gave us Souls. If God had given us Souls, seems to me that the word, "became" wouldn't be in this scripture but instead the word, "gave" would be. According to Genesis 2:7 God took dust from the ground and formed it into a flesh and blood human body. Then God blew the breath(spirit) of life into the flesh and blood human body and that flesh and blood human body became a living soul or living person. So Genesis 2:7 is telling us that the breath(spirit) of life separately on it's own without being in a flesh and blood human body isn't a living soul or living person. If the breath(spirit) of life were a living soul or living person before God blew it into the flesh and blood human body's nostrils then it would be more correct that God gave the flesh blood human body a living Soul or living person but that isn't the case. So we are Souls, we don't have Souls.
Genesis 2:7 says, "And the LORD God formed man of the dust of the ground, and breathed into his nostrils the breath of life; and man became a living soul."
From this scripture it shows that God created us as Souls not that he gave us Souls. So many believe that God gave us Souls. If God had given us Souls, seems to me that the word, "became" wouldn't be in this scripture but instead the word, "gave" would be. According to Genesis 2:7 God took dust from the ground and formed it into a flesh and blood human body. Then God blew the breath(spirit) of life into the flesh and blood human body and that flesh and blood human body became a living soul or living person. So Genesis 2:7 is telling us that the breath(spirit) of life separately on it's own without being in a flesh and blood human body isn't a living soul or living person. If the breath(spirit) of life were a living soul or living person before God blew it into the flesh and blood human body's nostrils then it would be more correct that God gave the flesh blood human body a living Soul or living person but that isn't the case. So we are Souls, we don't have Souls.
JackrabbitSlim
Member
- Dec 11, 2022
- 181
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- Thread starter
- #5
I believe, that God the Son (Jesus the Christ), died on the cross for sinful man, that He was buried, resurrected, and, ascended to the right hand of God the Father and, those that believe in Him, through faith, will have everlasting life. Those who do not place their faith in Him will go to hell, and, that hell will be cast into the Lake of Fire. It's an amazing thing, that I can proclaim to you, Authari, that Christ did that for you. His blood was shed for you.
- Apr 22, 2011
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Genesis 2:7 And the LORD God formed man of the dust of the ground, and breathed into his nostrils the breath of life; and man became a living soul.
Here dust + breath/spirit from God = a living soul. When the flesh dies physically it returns back to the dust of the ground and our spirit is preserved with God for final judgment.
Genesis 3:19 in the sweat of thy face shalt thou eat bread, till thou return unto the ground; for out of it wast thou taken: for dust thou art, and unto dust shalt thou return.
Ecc 12:7 then shall the dust return to the earth as it was: and the spirit shall return unto God who gave it.
We return to the dust of the ground when this physical body dies and our breath/spirit returns to God as we wait for Gods final judgment when Christ returns.
Matthew 10:28 And fear not them which kill the body, but are not able to kill the soul: but rather fear him which is able to destroy both soul and body in hell.
Our spirit can never die and is preserved until Gods final judgment on the last day when Christ returns, John 5:28-29; John 6:40.
Here dust + breath/spirit from God = a living soul. When the flesh dies physically it returns back to the dust of the ground and our spirit is preserved with God for final judgment.
Genesis 3:19 in the sweat of thy face shalt thou eat bread, till thou return unto the ground; for out of it wast thou taken: for dust thou art, and unto dust shalt thou return.
Ecc 12:7 then shall the dust return to the earth as it was: and the spirit shall return unto God who gave it.
We return to the dust of the ground when this physical body dies and our breath/spirit returns to God as we wait for Gods final judgment when Christ returns.
Matthew 10:28 And fear not them which kill the body, but are not able to kill the soul: but rather fear him which is able to destroy both soul and body in hell.
Our spirit can never die and is preserved until Gods final judgment on the last day when Christ returns, John 5:28-29; John 6:40.
- Apr 22, 2011
- 31,703
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If I read your Title and post #5 and combine the two an interesting conversation can develop.
Read
Traducianism - Wikipedia
Then give a brief statement on where you follow the article and where you vary from it.
This is personally the first time for me to be exposed to this, but on skimming the article some thoughts are beginning to form.
I suggest a time line that tries not to really go past Acts. The title is where this suggestion comes from. The article seemed (to me) how soul and spirit are carried along. Why stop at acts? Well if we get too far from where it comes from the title will be lost.
Am I a control freak? I don’t know. I just know if we give too much a time line my mind will not handle all the transitions.
Later in the discussion it might work to take it more into eternity future.
Read and tell me what you think.
eddif
Authari
Member
- Dec 30, 2022
- 20
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I am not a scientologist no.
- Apr 22, 2011
- 31,703
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Thank you as what you are saying is much of what they think. But I digress.
I disagree that the spirit that returns to God is a living person, preserved with God for final judgement.
The account of the creation of man states that God formed man from the dust of the ground and proceeded to “blow [form of naphach] into his nostrils the breath [form of neshamah] of life, and the man came to be a living soul [nephesh].” (Genesis 2:7) Nephesh may be translated literally as “a breather,” that is, “a breathing creature,” either human or animal. Neshamah is, in fact, used to mean “breathing thing [or creature]” and as such is used as a virtual synonym of nephesh, "soul."(Compare Deuteronomy 20:16; Joshua 10:39, 40; 11:11; 1 King 15:29.) The record at Genesis 2:7 uses neshamah in describing God’s causing Adam’s body to have life so that the man became “a living soul.” Other texts, however, show that more was involved than simple breathing of air, that is, more than the mere introduction of air into the lungs and its expulsion there from. So, at Genesis 7:22, in describing the destruction of human and animal life outside the ark at the time of the Flood, we read: “Everything in which the breath [form of neshamah] of the force [or, “spirit” (ruach)] of life was active in its nostrils, namely, all that were on the dry ground, died.” Neshamah, “breath,” is thus directly associated or linked with ruach,(spirit) which here describes the spirit, or life-force, that is active in all living creatures, or all living souls, human or animals.
So the scriptures show us that the spirit that's in man is the same spirit that's in animals.
I enjoyed reading your post. However, I don't think your last statement is necessarily true. The spirit of an animal is derived directly from the earth and returns to the earth upon the animal's death:
Gen 1:24 And God said: 'Let the earth bring forth the living creature (נפשׁ) after its kind, cattle, and creeping thing, and beast of the earth after its kind.' And it was so.
Ecc 3:21 Who knoweth the spirit of man whether it goeth upward, and the spirit of the beast whether it goeth downward to the earth?
However, this is not the case with man created in the image of Christ (God). Man's breath of life (that I believe also gave birth to his spirit) is derived directly from God and returns to God upon death (ie: separation from the body).
Gen 2:7 Then the LORD God formed man of the dust of the ground, and breathed into his nostrils the breath of life; and man became a living soul.
Ecc 12:7 And the dust returneth to the earth as it was, And the spirit returneth to God who gave it.
The scriptures also seem to differentiate between the breath of life (ie: the element that God breathed into man) and the spirit of man (or spiritual life force), as shown here:
Job 33:4 The spirit of God hath made me, and the breath of the Almighty given me life.
Job 34:14 If He set His heart upon man, if He gather unto Himself his spirit and his breath;
The Septuagint translates the Hebrew text of Job 34:14 as: πνευμα παρ αυτω... wherein man's spirit is "παρ", that is near, or nearby the breath of life giving man life. "παρ" is followed by the dative expressing vicinity or proximity but not necessarily being one and the same.
My own understanding is that the breath of life breathed into Adam gave life to both his physical body as well as his spiritual essence, thought of as "spirit". IOW: The Spirit of God gave birth to the spirit of man (Gen 2:7 taken with Gen 7:22, as well as Joh 3:6).
Anyway, food for thought.
Concerning Genesis 2:7 let's consult the producers of Hebrew-English dictionaries. In the public library A Hebrew and English Lexicon of the Old Testament, based on the Lexicon of William Gesenius and edited by three clergymen, Drs. Brown, Driver and Briggs, in its corrected edition of 1952. On page 659, under the Hebrew word Néfesh, this Lexicon is honest enough to make this admission, in column two: “2. The néfesh becomes a living being; by God’s breathing neshamáth hhayím into the nostrils of its basár; of man Genesis 2:7; by implication of animals also Genesis 2:19; so Psalm 104:29, 30, compare Ps 66:9; man is néfesh hhayáh, a living, breathing being Genesis 2:7; elsewhere néfesh hhayáh always of animals Genesis 1:20, 24, 30; 9:12, 15, 16; Ezekiel 47:9; . . . 3. The néfesh . . . is specifically: a. a living being whose life resides in the blood . . . (hence sacrificial use of blood, and its prohibition in other uses; . . . ) . . . c. Néfesh is used for life itself 171 times, of animals Proverbs 12:10, and of man Genesis 49:3c . . . ”
Another witness on the matter, is the Lexicon for the Old Testament Books, by L. Koehler and W. Baumgartner, in its edition of 1953, which gives definitions in both German and English. On page 627 of its Volume 2, this Lexicon says, under Néfesh: “the breathing substance, making man and animal living beings Genesis 1:20, the soul (strictly different from the Greek notion of soul) the seat of which is the blood Genesis 9:4f; Leviticus 17:11; Deuteronomy 12:23 (249 times): 3. néfesh hhayáh living being; Genesis 1:20, 24 (= animals) Ge 2:19 . . . Ge 2:7; 9:10, 16. . . . 4. soul = living being, individual, person . . . who kills a person Numbers 31:19, . . . destroy lives, persons Ezekiel 22:27; . . . 7. Néfesh breath = life (282 times) . . . ” And on page 628, column 1: “Néfesh a dead one (has developed from a person) Leviticus 21:1; Numbers 6:11; 9:10; Leviticus 22:4; Haggai 2:13; Numbers 5:2; 9:6f; Nu 19:11, 13 . . . ”
I think its wrong for us to brush aside the above authoritative definitions just because someone wants to hold onto the teaching that is preferred. The above was the meaning of néfesh or soul that Jesus Christ and his chosen apostles accepted. We today should also accept that meaning if we desire to prove ourselves his disciples and to know the truth that makes us free. (John 8:31, 32) For example, in discussing the resurrection, the apostle Paul, in 1 Corinthians 15:45, quotes a verse from the second chapter of the Bible that shows what a human soul is, namely, Genesis 2:7. In the popular Authorized Version Bible this verse says: “And the LORD God formed man of the dust of the ground, and breathed into his nostrils the breath of life; and man became a living soul.” That first man was called Adam, and he was a “soul.”
Please note that, when, in discussing the resurrection, the apostle Paul quotes Genesis 2:7, he does not try to explain away the fact that the first man Adam was a soul. Paul does not say that God breathed into man’s nostrils a soul. He does not change the wording in order to suit the Greek idea of a soul or psykhé.
For his glory said:
Ecc 12:7 then shall the dust return to the earth as it was: and the spirit shall return unto God who gave it.[/Quote\]
Concerning Ecclesiastes 12:7 Roman Catholic and Protestant scholars in the “Glossary of Biblical Theology Terms” appearing in the Catholic New American Bible (published by P. J. Kenedy & Sons, New York, 1970), we read: “When ‘spirit’ is used in contrast with ‘flesh,’ . . . the aim is not to distinguish a material from an immaterial part of man . . . ‘Spirit’ does not mean soul.” At Ecclesiastes 12:7 this translation uses, not the word “spirit,” but the expression “life breath.” The Protestant Interpreter’s Bible observes regarding the writer of Ecclesiastes: “Koheleth does not mean that man’s personality continues to exist.” In view of such different conclusions, can we be sure just what the spirit is and in what sense it returns to God?
At Ecclesiastes 12:1-7 the effects of old age and death are portrayed in poetic language. After death, the body eventually decomposes and again becomes a part of the dust of the earth. The “spirit,” on the other hand, “returns to the true God.” So man’s death is linked with the spirit’s returning to God, this indicating that man’s life in some way depends upon that spirit.
In the original-language text of Ecclesiastes 12:7, the Hebrew word translated “spirit” or “life breath” is ruʹahh. The corresponding Greek term is pneuʹma. While our life does depend on the breathing process, the English word “breath” (as numerous translators often render the words ruʹahh and pneuʹma) is not always a suitable alternate translation for “spirit.” Furthermore, other Hebrew and Greek words, namely, ne·sha·mahʹ (Hebrew) and pno·eʹ (Greek), are also translated as “breath.” (See Genesis 2:7 and Acts 17:25.) It is nevertheless noteworthy that, in using “breath” as an alternate rendering for “spirit,” translators are showing that the original-language terms apply to something that has no personality but is essential for the continuance of life.
That man’s life depends on the spirit (ruʹahh or pneuʹma) is definitely stated in the Bible. We read: “If you [Jehovah] take away their spirit [ruʹahh], they expire, and back to their dust they go.” (Psalm 104:29) “The body without spirit [pneuʹma] is dead.” (James 2:26) So the spirit is that which animates the body.
But this animating force is not simply breath. Why not? Because life remains in the body cells for a brief period after breathing stops. For this reason efforts at resuscitation can succeed, also body organs can be transplanted from one person to another. But these things have to be done quickly. Once the life-force is gone from the cells of the body, efforts to prolong life are futile. All the breath in the world could not revive even as much as one cell. Viewed in this light, the “spirit” evidently is an invisible life-force, active in every living cell of man’s body.
Is this life-force active only in man? What is stated in the Bible can help us to reach a sound conclusion on this. Regarding the destruction of human and animal life in a global flood, the Bible reports: “Everything in which the breath [neʹ·sha·mahʹ] of the force [ruʹahh, spirit] of life was active in its nostrils, namely, all that were on the dry ground, died.” (Genesis 7:22) At Ecclesiastes 3:19 the same basic point is made in connection with death: “There is an eventuality as respects the sons of mankind and an eventuality as respects the beast, and they have the same eventuality. As the one dies, so the other dies; and they all have but one spirit [ruʹahh], so that there is no superiority of the man over the beast.” Accordingly, man is not superior to animals when it comes to the spirit animating his body. The same invisible spirit or life-force is common to both.
Both humans and animals “have but one spirit,” one activating force. The spirit or life-force that enables man to carry out functions of life in no way differs from the spirit that makes it possible for animals to do so. That spirit does not retain the characteristics of the dead body’s cells. For example, in the case of brain cells, the spirit does not retain the information stored there and continue thought processes apart from these cells. The Bible tells us: “His spirit [ruʹahh] goes out, he goes back to his ground; in that day his thoughts do perish.”—Psalm 146:4.
This being the case, the return of the ruʹahh or spirit to God simply could not mean the continuance of conscious existence. The spirit does not continue human thought processes. It is only a life-force that has no conscious existence apart from a body.
How, then, does this invisible, impersonal force or spirit return to God? Does it return to his literal presence in heaven?
At death, no actual movement from the earth to the heavenly realm occurs for it to ‘return to God.’ But the gift or grant of existence as an intelligent creature, as enjoyed once by the dead person, now reverts to God. That which is needed to animate the person, namely, the spirit or life-force, is in God’s hands.—Psalm 31:5; Luke 23:46.
A dead man, does not have control over his spirit or life-force. It has returned to God in the sense that he controls the future life prospects of the individual. It is up to God to decide as to whether he will restore the spirit or life-force to the deceased.
Ecc 12:7 then shall the dust return to the earth as it was: and the spirit shall return unto God who gave it.[/Quote\]
Concerning Ecclesiastes 12:7 Roman Catholic and Protestant scholars in the “Glossary of Biblical Theology Terms” appearing in the Catholic New American Bible (published by P. J. Kenedy & Sons, New York, 1970), we read: “When ‘spirit’ is used in contrast with ‘flesh,’ . . . the aim is not to distinguish a material from an immaterial part of man . . . ‘Spirit’ does not mean soul.” At Ecclesiastes 12:7 this translation uses, not the word “spirit,” but the expression “life breath.” The Protestant Interpreter’s Bible observes regarding the writer of Ecclesiastes: “Koheleth does not mean that man’s personality continues to exist.” In view of such different conclusions, can we be sure just what the spirit is and in what sense it returns to God?
At Ecclesiastes 12:1-7 the effects of old age and death are portrayed in poetic language. After death, the body eventually decomposes and again becomes a part of the dust of the earth. The “spirit,” on the other hand, “returns to the true God.” So man’s death is linked with the spirit’s returning to God, this indicating that man’s life in some way depends upon that spirit.
In the original-language text of Ecclesiastes 12:7, the Hebrew word translated “spirit” or “life breath” is ruʹahh. The corresponding Greek term is pneuʹma. While our life does depend on the breathing process, the English word “breath” (as numerous translators often render the words ruʹahh and pneuʹma) is not always a suitable alternate translation for “spirit.” Furthermore, other Hebrew and Greek words, namely, ne·sha·mahʹ (Hebrew) and pno·eʹ (Greek), are also translated as “breath.” (See Genesis 2:7 and Acts 17:25.) It is nevertheless noteworthy that, in using “breath” as an alternate rendering for “spirit,” translators are showing that the original-language terms apply to something that has no personality but is essential for the continuance of life.
That man’s life depends on the spirit (ruʹahh or pneuʹma) is definitely stated in the Bible. We read: “If you [Jehovah] take away their spirit [ruʹahh], they expire, and back to their dust they go.” (Psalm 104:29) “The body without spirit [pneuʹma] is dead.” (James 2:26) So the spirit is that which animates the body.
But this animating force is not simply breath. Why not? Because life remains in the body cells for a brief period after breathing stops. For this reason efforts at resuscitation can succeed, also body organs can be transplanted from one person to another. But these things have to be done quickly. Once the life-force is gone from the cells of the body, efforts to prolong life are futile. All the breath in the world could not revive even as much as one cell. Viewed in this light, the “spirit” evidently is an invisible life-force, active in every living cell of man’s body.
Is this life-force active only in man? What is stated in the Bible can help us to reach a sound conclusion on this. Regarding the destruction of human and animal life in a global flood, the Bible reports: “Everything in which the breath [neʹ·sha·mahʹ] of the force [ruʹahh, spirit] of life was active in its nostrils, namely, all that were on the dry ground, died.” (Genesis 7:22) At Ecclesiastes 3:19 the same basic point is made in connection with death: “There is an eventuality as respects the sons of mankind and an eventuality as respects the beast, and they have the same eventuality. As the one dies, so the other dies; and they all have but one spirit [ruʹahh], so that there is no superiority of the man over the beast.” Accordingly, man is not superior to animals when it comes to the spirit animating his body. The same invisible spirit or life-force is common to both.
Both humans and animals “have but one spirit,” one activating force. The spirit or life-force that enables man to carry out functions of life in no way differs from the spirit that makes it possible for animals to do so. That spirit does not retain the characteristics of the dead body’s cells. For example, in the case of brain cells, the spirit does not retain the information stored there and continue thought processes apart from these cells. The Bible tells us: “His spirit [ruʹahh] goes out, he goes back to his ground; in that day his thoughts do perish.”—Psalm 146:4.
This being the case, the return of the ruʹahh or spirit to God simply could not mean the continuance of conscious existence. The spirit does not continue human thought processes. It is only a life-force that has no conscious existence apart from a body.
How, then, does this invisible, impersonal force or spirit return to God? Does it return to his literal presence in heaven?
At death, no actual movement from the earth to the heavenly realm occurs for it to ‘return to God.’ But the gift or grant of existence as an intelligent creature, as enjoyed once by the dead person, now reverts to God. That which is needed to animate the person, namely, the spirit or life-force, is in God’s hands.—Psalm 31:5; Luke 23:46.
A dead man, does not have control over his spirit or life-force. It has returned to God in the sense that he controls the future life prospects of the individual. It is up to God to decide as to whether he will restore the spirit or life-force to the deceased.
- Apr 22, 2011
- 31,703
- 16,740
Hi Bright1 and welcome to CF 
That's a whole lot to take in as I try to keep the doctrines of Christ simple, but I think we are in a round about way agreeing, or at least I hope so.
God breathed the breath of life into us making us a living Nefesh (soul). In the resurrection of the dead when Christ returns we are not raised in this same sinful body as blood and flesh can not inherit the Kingdom of God. This body decays in the ground as it returns back to dust so when they who have died are raised from the grave this corruptible shall have put on incorruption, and this mortal shall have put on immortality, then shall be brought to pass the saying that is written, Death is swallowed up in victory, 1 Corinthians 15:50-58.
Our soul is the part of us in relation to our own experiences, our mind, heart, will and imagination. It also includes our thoughts, desires, passion and dreams.
Our spirit is that of the inner life in relation to God, our faith, hope. love, character and perseverance.
The soul and the spirit never die, but is subject to eternal life with Christ, or eternal damnation in final judgement, John 5:28-29
That's a whole lot to take in as I try to keep the doctrines of Christ simple, but I think we are in a round about way agreeing, or at least I hope so.
God breathed the breath of life into us making us a living Nefesh (soul). In the resurrection of the dead when Christ returns we are not raised in this same sinful body as blood and flesh can not inherit the Kingdom of God. This body decays in the ground as it returns back to dust so when they who have died are raised from the grave this corruptible shall have put on incorruption, and this mortal shall have put on immortality, then shall be brought to pass the saying that is written, Death is swallowed up in victory, 1 Corinthians 15:50-58.
Our soul is the part of us in relation to our own experiences, our mind, heart, will and imagination. It also includes our thoughts, desires, passion and dreams.
Our spirit is that of the inner life in relation to God, our faith, hope. love, character and perseverance.
The soul and the spirit never die, but is subject to eternal life with Christ, or eternal damnation in final judgement, John 5:28-29
