How Do You Make Sense of Evil?

[Drew]

I see man as a rebel sinner, you do not.

This is not at all a fair characterization of my position.

I see man as natured so that he is irreconsilibly and naturally rebelous agaist God, you do not.

Again, you do not accurately reflect my position and / or you draw a conclusion without justification. The fact that I see man as having a measure of free will does not really justify a conclusion that I think he is not "naturally rebellious" against God. I believe that he is indeed.

I would make the analogy to be that a rebelious sinful universe that hearts of murder, and hatred. They hate each other, and most of all they hate God with passion. Everyone deserved to die,....

Yes, but I understand you properly, you seem to basically argue as follows:

1. Men are born into a condition where they cannot help but rebel against God.

2. This condition manifests itself by a passionate hatred of God.

3. God is justified in condemning them.

I assert that it is conceptually incoherent to condemn an agent (with all the connotations of moral culpability of the condemned) for doing something it has no control over. This is not so much a statement of "theology" on my part as it is a "demand" that people honour the concepts and not make self-contradictory statements. The very concept of condemnation gets its "oomph" from the implicit belief that condemned agent had the power of contrary choice. This is not a new disagreement between us, as I am sure you are aware.

There are those (I will not assume that you are one of them) that play a little trick with this line of thinking: they illicitly leverage off the implicit aspect of freedom of contrary choice that is bundled into the very meaning of the term "hate" and get mileage out that, all the while quietly hoping that no one notices that they deny the existence of this free choice.

There is a reason why we are more angry when a human expresses his hate by killing someone than when a rock falls and kills someone. The reason is that we believe that killer had the power to choose a different course of action (unlike the rock). It is for this very reason that the "choice" to still kill is so anger-inducing.

 

[mondar]

Drew,
OK, you are saying man is a sinner and guilty, but no punishment will happen because man has an excuse. This excuse is the fact that man has no choice but to rebel because he is by nature a rebel. Now you say that if God punishes man for his rebellion, God would be unjust because man cannot help his rebellion.

Actually I dont have a problem with God punishing men who rebel according to their nature. Its no different the killing a rabid dog who would attack a person according to its nature.

Does the word excuse sound familiar? Of course that goes back to Romans 1:19 which tells us that because of natural revelation man is without excuse. Of course if I remember right, you did want to make free will the issue in that passage.

Of course all men deserve Gods wrath because the truth of God in nature is suppressed by men.
Rom 1:18 For the wrath of God is revealed from heaven against all ungodliness and unrighteousness of men, who hinder the truth in unrighteousness;

Man chose rebellion in Adam. Man chose rebellion when man did not even have a sin nature. Maybe you could say Adam had some sort of free will. Nevertheless, Adams choice of rebellion is part of the point of Pauls theology in Romans 5:12.
Rom 5:12 Therefore, as through one man sin entered into the world, and death through sin; and so death passed unto all men, for that all sinned: -


Rom 5:18 So then as through one trespass the judgment came unto all men to condemnation; even so through one act of righteousness the free gift came unto all men to justification of life.

All men deserve Gods wrath even if they sinned by nature. Claiming we are not responsible, is just simply not an adequate excuse. I think that is clear in the scriptures.

More then what I said above, a position of the rebellion and great sinfulness of man is exclusive with the position of free will. The two cannot go together. If mans will is corrupted in sin nature, then he does not have free will.

 

[Drew]

Drew,
OK, you are saying man is a sinner and guilty, but no punishment will happen because man has an excuse. This excuse is the fact that man has no choice but to rebel because he is by nature a rebel. Now you say that if God punishes man for his rebellion, God would be unjust because man cannot help his rebellion.

No I am not saying this. I am saying that man is born with an irresistable urge to sin (we agree on this) and I believe that unless a remedy is found, the person will die and be annihilated - I do not believe the Scriptures teach eternal torment. So the unredeemed person simply follows the course of nature - he dies just like someone who is born with HIV might die. But such death is not property described as a "punishment" - it is a morally neutral fate that faces him, just like the child born with HIV.

I continue to claim that it is a violation of the concept of "punishment" to assert that a person can be punished for something over which he has no power of contrary choice. I am not saying that it is somehow "wrong" for God to make a world in which men are born to die as the result of their sin nature. I see no reason to think that God "owes" his creations eternal life.

Actually I dont have a problem with God punishing men who rebel according to their nature. Its no different the killing a rabid dog who would attack a person according to its nature.

As per the above, I think you violate the concepts here when you draw this comparison. Its ok to kill the rabid dog, but it is simply improper to refer to it as punishment since the dog did not "choose" to get rabies.

Man chose rebellion in Adam. Man chose rebellion when man did not even have a sin nature. Maybe you could say Adam had some sort of free will. Nevertheless, Adams choice of rebellion is part of the point of Pauls theology in Romans 5:12.
Rom 5:12 Therefore, as through one man sin entered into the world, and death through sin; and so death passed unto all men, for that all sinned: -

You will perhaps not be surprised that I reject the assertion that man "chose rebellion" in Adam. I was not there with Adam, making that choice. However, I am perfectly consistent with Paul here - my model entails the idea that indeed sin entered the world through one man. And we do die from it. But we are not punished for it. In fact Paul makes this very point - absolving himeslf of moral culpability for the sin his body exhibits:

Now if I do what I do not want to do, it is no longer I who do it, but it is sin living in me that does it
And yet Paul still will die since, like unfortunate child born with HIV, he inherits the sin nature.

 

[MarkT]

No I am not saying this. I am saying that man is born with an irresistable urge to sin (we agree on this) and I believe that unless a remedy is found, the person will die and be annihilated - I do not believe the Scriptures teach eternal torment. So the unredeemed person simply follows the course of nature - he dies just like someone who is born with HIV might die. But such death is not property described as a "punishment" - it is a morally neutral fate that faces him, just like the child born with HIV.

I continue to claim that it is a violation of the concept of "punishment" to assert that a person can be punished for something over which he has no power of contrary choice. I am not saying that it is somehow "wrong" for God to make a world in which men are born to die as the result of their sin nature. I see no reason to think that God "owes" his creations eternal life.

The punishment is for not listening to God. God tells you about the hell of fire. You refuse to listen. You've got your own ideas. You won't listen. What do you think you deserve? God tells you about it. You don't believe him. You keep arguing against God's word, saying God wouldn't do that. Wisdom begins with the fear of God. God prepared the devil's punishment long ago. You don't believe it. God wouldn't throw anyone into hell for not listening to him. Sorry. We all deserve hell because we don't listen to God. Is there some way God can tell you about hell, that you will believe him? This is just like when God told Adam he would die and Adam ate any way. Did God tell Adam not to eat because he wanted to punish him? No. He told him not to eat because he loved him. What does God have to do to make you believe him? You can't believe in hell. No. You've got your own ideas. You boast that you can enter the kingdom of God if you want to. Maybe. But you can't inherit eternal life if you don't believe God's Word.

 

[MarkT]

More then what I said above, a position of the rebellion and great sinfulness of man is exclusive with the position of free will. The two cannot go together. If mans will is corrupted in sin nature, then he does not have free will.

The question is, what is free? Some can not hear the words of God, and go after false teachers. Some have a stubborn spirit that refuses to listen to God. It is written that it is the spirit in a man that causes him to understand. 'But it is the spirit in a man, the breath of the Almighty, that makes him understand.' Job 32:8

If the tree isn't planted by God then it will bear bad fruit, and this is what we're seeing; bad fruit, bad theology. I might not agree with a man's theology. But if the spirit of the man leads him to go after false teachers, and makes him believe what is false, then what can we say? Does he do so willingly? Sure. His spirit led him to his understanding. Can a man choose what isn't in him?

.

 

[mutzrein]

What are you saying Mark? On the one hand you are blaming man for not listening to God – and therefore he will be punished. And then you are saying that some ‘cannot’ hear the words of God.

If the latter is true, why do you think God would condemn someone to eternal punishment - since seemingly he has no choice.

Scripture plainly states that salvation is of God. And in many ways and places it points to God as being the author (and finisher) of our faith. Faith is the gift of God. Do we blame God for a man not receiving this gift? Do we blame God for making some vessels for honor and some for dishonor. Do we blame God that it does not depend on man's desire or effort, but on God's mercy. Do we blame God that no-one can come to the Father except Christ and no-one can come to Christ unless the Father draws him. Do we blame God that those who are born of God are born, not of human decision but of God?

Mark, don’t you understand what it is that man receives when he becomes a child of God and is born of His spirit? It is life. Eternal life. Those who have not received life, remain dead - and scripture says they perish. There is no eternal punishment for these – just death. And this is the result of Adam’s sin.

 

[MarkT]

What are you saying Mark? On the one hand you are blaming man for not listening to God – and therefore he will be punished. And then you are saying that some ‘cannot’ hear the words of God.

If the latter is true, why do you think God would condemn someone to eternal punishment - since seemingly he has no choice.

God knows who we are. He gives men to his Son. And he hardens the hearts of the sons of the evil one so that they cannot hear. Still we seek to persuade men. We pray God will have mercy on them. We believe anything is possible with God. We still have to run the race, even though we know God and are known by God, we still have to accomplish his purpose.

Scripture plainly states that salvation is of God. And in many ways and places it points to God as being the author (and finisher) of our faith. Faith is the gift of God. Do we blame God for a man not receiving this gift? Do we blame God for making some vessels for honor and some for dishonor. Do we blame God that it does not depend on man's desire or effort, but on God's mercy. Do we blame God that no-one can come to the Father except Christ and no-one can come to Christ unless the Father draws him. Do we blame God that those who are born of God are born, not of human decision but of God?

Mark, don’t you understand what it is that man receives when he becomes a child of God and is born of His spirit? It is life. Eternal life. Those who have not received life, remain dead - and scripture says they perish. There is no eternal punishment for these – just death. And this is the result of Adam’s sin.

Why would you think I am blaming God? God created man for his name's sake. You might say man was created to remove evil. I should say some men were created to remove evil, and some were created for his Spirit.

Just so you know, I think your understanding is Ok. But there's a speck in Calvinism that I would like to remove. But I'm a little confused. Are you in the 'man has freewill' camp or the 'man has no freewill' camp?

And just so there is no confusion, keep it in mind, that 'it is the Spirit himself bearing witness with our spirit that we are children of God' Romans 8:16 So there are two witnesses, our spirit and the Spirit of God, that bear witness.

Jesus said the Counsellor will be with us forever, even the Spirit of truth, whom the world cannot receive, because it neither sees him nor knows him'. Jesus said, 'you know him, for he dwells with you and will be in you' John 14:17

Those who are of this world cannot receive the Counsellor. We know him but the world doesn't know him. Plus the world cannot hear us.

'Who is the man that fears the LORD? Him will he instruct in the way he should choose.' Ps. 25:12

The man who doesn't fear God will not be instructed. And how do we put the fear of God in the man?

It's not likely Noah would have built the ark if he didn't believe God was going to send a flood. But the fear of God was in Noah and so he was instructed in what he should do. Likewise, the man who doesn't fear the eternal punishment prepared for the devil and his angels, will not be instructed in the way he should choose. What would have happened to Noah if he had not build his ark? He would have been destroyed. So it is not what they do, but what they don't do that destroys them. They don't listen to God. Many don't even build an ark. Why? Because the fear of God isn't in them and they don't receive instruction. Even so. This is the will of God. God knows who they are. I'm not talking about those who are of this world. I'm talking about the sons of the kingdom; the ones who are called. The word of the kingdom will be preached to every nation, and those who hear the voice of our Master will respond. Such is the will of God. He created his kingdom for his Son, not for oursake. 'Thus says the Lord GOD; it is not for your sake, O house of Israel, that I am about to act, but for the sake of my holy name, which you have profaned among the nations to which you came.' Eze. 36:22

What can we say about the man who doesn't believe in the furnace of fire? We can see that he does not build his 'ark' rightly, neither does he seek the right materials to build with. His foundation might be ok. But he doesn't build his understanding with gold and silver and jewels. Rather he uses wood and hay and stubble. His house will be destroyed if it is made of wood, that is, false teachings, empty words. Still the man may be saved; that is the foundation.

The kingdom of heaven is like a net which was thrown into the sea and gathered fish of every kind. This net captures the good and the bad, so we see both in the church. When the net is full, the angels will come out and separate the evil from the righteous; and throw the evil into the furnace of fire.

The day of wrath is coming on all the world. God's will be done. He patiently endures the vessels of wrath until the net is full.

The beginning of wisdom is the fear of God. The man who doesn't fear God has no wisdom. Christ is our wisdom.

 

[MarkT]

Life's a learning experience. We, that is man, knows good and evil from the tree of the knowledge of good and evil. We can see that we are imperfect. We are mortal. We can see that there is life and death, good and evil, light and dark, summer and winter, left and right, up and down, forward and backward. All of life has two sides to it, and it seems that you can't have one without the other. To understand a scale, to see a balance, this must be true.

There are those that take good for evil and evil for good. They can look at evil and see something good and desirable. For instance, 'Let's kill the ones who break the law'.

Apparently man cannot claim that he doesn't know good and evil. Unfortunately, he is capable of both. Life's a learning experience. You have to learn to take hold of the good, and reject the bad.

We can see that it is possible to take the negative of any argument. Every argument has a point/counterpoint. For every argument for a position, there's an argument against a position. Define 'positive' without defining 'negative'. By definition, as soon as you define 'good' as being the opposite of 'evil', you create 'evil' in your heart. That's the weakness of our human understanding. How high is 'up'? It depends on how low is 'down'. It's possible that this way, our way, of looking at things is what gets us into trouble.

We might think that knowing good and evil is the ultimate thing. We are like God. We robbed him of knowledge, and we became like him. I don't think so. The devil said it would make us like God. I guess we just assumed it, what the devil said was true, and that's why God punished us. But all that it did was make us greedy and selfish and violent and angry, hateful and scornful, disobedient, opposing and in opposition to God. Up until then, we didn't ask, 'how high is up' or, 'how low is down'. We never asked ourselves, 'How does this benefit me?' 'What's in it for me?' There was no 'me'; no selfish desire.

I'd say we acquired freewill or the notion of 'freewill', and that's what gets us into trouble. We, that is man, magnified his will over God. Since God didn't punish the wicked for their evil doings - they do better than we do - we forgot about God. We both live and die. The wicked succeed in this world, whereas we end up poor and desolate.

Now man magnifies his love. He says his love is greater than God's love. Foolish man. Your love comes from God. Nothing you have belongs to you. Neither your love or your hate, your joy or your sorrow. Everything belongs to God.

Now the argument is about being a puppet. I'd rather be God's puppet than the devil's puppet. If you don't want to be his puppet, if you don't want God to interfere with your life, then you're not ready to serve. I think if you don't start out being a puppet/servant, then you are not going to end up being his son. It's not a question of if we want to be God's puppet/servant. I am God's puppet/servant. Despise me for it, because I didn't magnify my will over God's will.

 

[mutzrein]

Hi Mark - this is in response to your previous post to me and haven't included your post so hope you connect my comments to the relevant parts of yours.

You said that God knows who we are. You are right Mark. God does know who we are. He knows those who are His . . . and he knows those who are not. The names of those who are his are written in the book of life – even before the foundation of the earth. And scripture tells us that God is the God of the living . . . not the dead.
So let me put this to you.
God loves some – and not others.
God draws some - and not others.
He gives life to some - and not others.
He makes some his sons and daughters – and not others.
Why then do you think that we should try to persuade men? Do you think that as men of the Spirit, we should seek to persuade those whose names are not written in the book of life.
And why do you think that we should pray that God will have mercy on them? Do you think that as men of the Spirit we should test God?
And why do we believe anything is possible with God? Surely we must know and accept that it is impossible for God to lie.
I hope I haven’t put this too bluntly.

I'm not sure what your comment about a speck in calvinism is about but thankyou. Are you suggesting there is a speck in my eye? Maybe there is. But you say you are a little confused. Oh well! Actually, I sometimes consider myself a worm. I don’t think they have eyes anyway. :-?

But seriously - just so you have clarity on my position regarding free will, it is this:
God has chosen to have children. Prior to being his child, I was dead. So, prior to my birth, did I have a choice in the matter? Did I have free will over whether or not I would be born? Absolutely not. As it is in the natural, so it is in the Spiritual.

But, since being made a son of God and having been given the gift of eternal life, everything has changed. As one who has been given the spirit of life I am now made in God’s image. So whereas once I was dead, I am now alive and with this gift of life I am responsible for what I do with it. So now assuredly, I have free will.

Regarding the sons of the Kingdom. Jesus did say that he was going to prepare a place for us. Those who have been given the spirit of life are sons of God’s kingdom. And as the many parables which speak of the Kingdom tell us, not all will inherit eternal reward.

And just a few words about wrath. People seem to speak of God’s wrath as though there is only one outcome. The wrath of God which stemmed from Adam’s sin was death. And so those who have not been given the gift of life just perish. However the wrath of God will also be extended to those who have been given the gift of life and turned back to a righteousness not of faith. And in this instance, since they have received eternal life, the result of the wrath of God will be eternal suffering.

And amen! - unless we are in Christ our wisdom is foolishness.

 

[Imagican]

Hey Mutz,

What IF someone's NAME in the Book of LIfe IS THERE because God USED someone to TELL them of The Word. Perhaps THROUGH someone's 'testimony' to another the NAME was ADDED to the Book ten thousand years ago. Or God KNEW when the book was written that I would offer the 'truth' to someone and through their acceptance they would COME to God now?

We certainly don't KNOW all the WAYS in which God uses us to His Glory. A little story for you.

Years ago, I'm living a pretty INTENTIONAL sinful life. I'm out of gas in the middle of no where VERY early in the morning. Car pulls up behind me. I think it's a cop. Who else would pull up behind a car parked in a strange place at four oclock in the morning? Man walks up to the window. Knocks on the window and ask me if I'm ok. I tell him my situation and he says 'come on'. I get in his car after telling him that I'm out of gas and don't have any money. Drives me to a gas station a few miles away. Goes inside and buys a gas can, fills it up and takes me back to my car. Little was spoken there or back but as he gives me the can of gas he says, "Friend, I don't know what you are going through but I believe that you need THIS as well", at which point he opens his console and pulls out one of those little NT's. To this day, it still brings UNCONTROLABLE tears to my eyes when I tell this story.

Perhaps that man and his deed had 'something' to DO with my coming to God through His Son. Who knows. I know that I can't think about nor talk about this event without experiencing serious emotion and this happened maybe TWENTY years ago. This man LITERALLY put his life in my hands to DO ME A FAVOR. He didn't have ANY IDEA who I was or what I was doing there.

I had another instance where I was 'drugged out' in my younger years and sitting in my car in a 'park'. A car pulls up across the parking lot and a lady gets out, walks across the parking lot and taps on my window. I roll it down about two inches and she pokes a 'track like' booklet through the window and states, "Jesus loves you and died for you", turns away, goes BACK to her car and drives away. There were perhaps thirty other cars parked in this parking lot at a lake. People sitting in MOST of them. She stopped, got out of her car, walked DIRECTLY to mine, tapped on the window, handed me this literature, told me Jesus loved and died for me and walked away. Got back in her car and drove away. I guess you can imagine the impact that this had in my life. Coincidence? Perhaps. But you could CERTAINLY NEVER convince me of such. For God DOES work in mysterious ways.

Now, what IF my name WAS in the Book of life but it was NECESSARY for someone to come along and offer UNDERSTANDING of LOVE for me to SEE it FIRST. That God KNEW from the foundation of this planet that I COULD be 'saved' but also KNEW that it would take a bit of a 'push' for me to SEE. Like Saul on the road to Damascus, it took Christ's DIRECT intervention for Saul to BECOME Paul and STOP persecuting Christ's followers.

So, even though there IS a book of life that existed BEFORE we were actually born, that doesn't negate the NEED of God to at times USE us to 'bring' those whose names ARE in The Book to REALIZATION of The TRUTH.

Just a tid bit of 'speculation'.

MEC

 

[MarkT]

Hi Mark - this is in response to your previous post to me and haven't included your post so hope you connect my comments to the relevant parts of yours.

You said that God knows who we are. You are right Mark. God does know who we are. He knows those who are His . . . and he knows those who are not. The names of those who are his are written in the book of life – even before the foundation of the earth. And scripture tells us that God is the God of the living . . . not the dead.
So let me put this to you.
God loves some – and not others.
God draws some - and not others.
He gives life to some - and not others.
He makes some his sons and daughters – and not others.
Why then do you think that we should try to persuade men? Do you think that as men of the Spirit, we should seek to persuade those whose names are not written in the book of life.
And why do you think that we should pray that God will have mercy on them? Do you think that as men of the Spirit we should test God?
And why do we believe anything is possible with God? Surely we must know and accept that it is impossible for God to lie.
I hope I haven’t put this too bluntly.

No. It's a good question. But I think it's like Paul said. We're in the race. Even though we know we have won, we still have to run the race. We're like the wind. We don't know where the Spirit will lead us. We're here and there. The Spirit might lead us to persuade a man so that we have to seek knowledge. Thus we end up with more knowledge and a better understanding. So it might be God is strengthening our faith in this way. Jesus didn't hide, and he told us we shouldn't hide our light. So we let our light shine before men. I think if a man is called to preach the gospel, that's what he will do. In my case, I'm called to gather the elect.

I'm not sure what your comment about a speck in calvinism is about but thankyou. Are you suggesting there is a speck in my eye? Maybe there is. But you say you are a little confused. Oh well! Actually, I sometimes consider myself a worm. I don’t think they have eyes anyway. :-?

But seriously - just so you have clarity on my position regarding free will, it is this:
God has chosen to have children. Prior to being his child, I was dead. So, prior to my birth, did I have a choice in the matter? Did I have free will over whether or not I would be born? Absolutely not. As it is in the natural, so it is in the Spiritual.

I see. That's one way of looking at it. True we didn't choose to be born. It just happened. You were dead inside, and the Spirit gave you life. That's true. But I wouldn't say we were dead before we were born. You said our names were written in the Lamb's book of life from the foundation of the earth. That's right. We didn't have life in ourselves but I think we did exist as names in his book before we were born.

The prodigal son was a son before he left his father's house. I would say you were a son prior to your physical birth, and you only realized it when you were born again.

But, since being made a son of God and having been given the gift of eternal life, everything has changed. As one who has been given the spirit of life I am now made in God’s image. So whereas once I was dead, I am now alive and with this gift of life I am responsible for what I do with it. So now assuredly, I have free will.

OK. I agree we are free in the Spirit. Our will is free of the body of sin and death to serve God. Still the body of sin does enjoy the pleasures of this world.

Regarding the sons of the Kingdom. Jesus did say that he was going to prepare a place for us. Those who have been given the spirit of life are sons of God’s kingdom. And as the many parables which speak of the Kingdom tell us, not all will inherit eternal reward.

And just a few words about wrath. People seem to speak of God’s wrath as though there is only one outcome. The wrath of God which stemmed from Adam’s sin was death. And so those who have not been given the gift of life just perish. However the wrath of God will also be extended to those who have been given the gift of life and turned back to a righteousness not of faith. And in this instance, since they have received eternal life, the result of the wrath of God will be eternal suffering.

I wouldn't say his wrath is death. I would say his wrath is his anger. When Paul says, 'the wrath of God is revealed from heaven', he's saying we can see that God in his anger has given men up to dishonourable passions, and a base mind, and wickedness so that they will die. So you think the wicked just perish? In that case, then, why should they fear God? No. I think the furnace of fire exists for the devil and his angels, and everyone who hates God and his Word, and everyone who blasphemes his Spirit, and everyone who hates us.

 

[mutzrein]

Hey Mutz,

What IF someone's NAME in the Book of LIfe IS THERE because God USED someone to TELL them of The Word. Perhaps THROUGH someone's 'testimony' to another the NAME was ADDED to the Book ten thousand years ago. Or God KNEW when the book was written that I would offer the 'truth' to someone and through their acceptance they would COME to God now?

We certainly don't KNOW all the WAYS in which God uses us to His Glory. A little story for you.

Years ago, I'm living a pretty INTENTIONAL sinful life. I'm out of gas in the middle of no where VERY early in the morning. Car pulls up behind me. I think it's a cop. Who else would pull up behind a car parked in a strange place at four oclock in the morning? Man walks up to the window. Knocks on the window and ask me if I'm ok. I tell him my situation and he says 'come on'. I get in his car after telling him that I'm out of gas and don't have any money. Drives me to a gas station a few miles away. Goes inside and buys a gas can, fills it up and takes me back to my car. Little was spoken there or back but as he gives me the can of gas he says, "Friend, I don't know what you are going through but I believe that you need THIS as well", at which point he opens his console and pulls out one of those little NT's. To this day, it still brings UNCONTROLABLE tears to my eyes when I tell this story.

Perhaps that man and his deed had 'something' to DO with my coming to God through His Son. Who knows. I know that I can't think about nor talk about this event without experiencing serious emotion and this happened maybe TWENTY years ago. This man LITERALLY put his life in my hands to DO ME A FAVOR. He didn't have ANY IDEA who I was or what I was doing there.

I had another instance where I was 'drugged out' in my younger years and sitting in my car in a 'park'. A car pulls up across the parking lot and a lady gets out, walks across the parking lot and taps on my window. I roll it down about two inches and she pokes a 'track like' booklet through the window and states, "Jesus loves you and died for you", turns away, goes BACK to her car and drives away. There were perhaps thirty other cars parked in this parking lot at a lake. People sitting in MOST of them. She stopped, got out of her car, walked DIRECTLY to mine, tapped on the window, handed me this literature, told me Jesus loved and died for me and walked away. Got back in her car and drove away. I guess you can imagine the impact that this had in my life. Coincidence? Perhaps. But you could CERTAINLY NEVER convince me of such. For God DOES work in mysterious ways.

Now, what IF my name WAS in the Book of life but it was NECESSARY for someone to come along and offer UNDERSTANDING of LOVE for me to SEE it FIRST. That God KNEW from the foundation of this planet that I COULD be 'saved' but also KNEW that it would take a bit of a 'push' for me to SEE. Like Saul on the road to Damascus, it took Christ's DIRECT intervention for Saul to BECOME Paul and STOP persecuting Christ's followers.

So, even though there IS a book of life that existed BEFORE we were actually born, that doesn't negate the NEED of God to at times USE us to 'bring' those whose names ARE in The Book to REALIZATION of The TRUTH.

Just a tid bit of 'speculation'.

MEC

MEC – You are absolutely right. That is not speculation. That is the truth!

And what wonderful testimony to the grace of God there is in those stories. It makes me rejoice and shout HALLELUJAH! to hear them – and it brings tears to my eyes – even as I type.

Truly - ‘How beautiful are the feet of them who bring good news!’ MEC this is what being led of the Spirit is all about. The Lord leads his own to plant the seed, water the seed - and at the right time the seed springs forth into new life. It’s the same with human ‘seed’. The seed is planted, fertilized and given the right conditions and fulness of time a child is born. Now the child (born of the flesh) has absolutely no choice in the matter. And this is exactly the same as the one born of the Spirit. As scripture says, “children born not of natural descent, nor of human decision or a husband's will, but born of God.†(NIV).

You see, the ultimate deception is the belief that one can ‘choose’ eternal life. Because it only leads to self righteousness.

So I want to leave you with a couple of thoughts. Firstly to remind you of what scripture says about Christ. It says He didn’t come to condemn the world. And it says that He came that man might have life.
So what is the gospel? And what is it based on? Condemnation leading to damnation? Or faith leading to life?
Is it an academic message condemning of all people to hell for their sin unless they get right with God?
Or is it the message of the cross which can only be heard by those who have been given the gift of faith to receive it – while those who are perishing count it as foolishness.

Selah

 

[mutzrein]

No. It's a good question. But I think it's like Paul said. We're in the race. Even though we know we have won, we still have to run the race. We're like the wind. We don't know where the Spirit will lead us. We're here and there. The Spirit might lead us to persuade a man so that we have to seek knowledge. Thus we end up with more knowledge and a better understanding. So it might be God is strengthening our faith in this way. Jesus didn't hide, and he told us we shouldn't hide our light. So we let our light shine before men. I think if a man is called to preach the gospel, that's what he will do. In my case, I'm called to gather the elect.

We certainly are in a race and I agree with you in many respects but I cannot agree that we know we have won. What we have been given is entry into the race. As Paul writes to the Galatians, “You were running a good race. Who cut in on you and kept you from obeying the truth? That kind of persuasion does not come from the one who calls you.â€Â
And with other references I would say there is no guarantee that we will win the race but still we run toward the prize. Unfortunately there will be some who do not win the crown. As far as calling is concerned, mine is to know the truth and make it known.

I see. That's one way of looking at it. True we didn't choose to be born. It just happened. You were dead inside, and the Spirit gave you life. That's true. But I wouldn't say we were dead before we were born. You said our names were written in the Lamb's book of life from the foundation of the earth. That's right. We didn't have life in ourselves but I think we did exist as names in his book before we were born.

[quote:f3d9c]Scripture tells us that we were all dead (in trespasses and sin). So, prior to being given life, even though my name was written in the book of life, the Spirit had not been given me. Truly I was dead. And remember what happens to a seed when it is planted. It dies in order that it may bring forth much seed (fruit). But I digress.

The prodigal son was a son before he left his father's house. I would say you were a son prior to your physical birth, and you only realized it when you were born again.

I suppose in a manner of speaking I was a ‘promised’ son (in the flesh) since I was in my forebears loins. I think I hear what you are saying, however I cannot say that I was a son (in the flesh) until I was actually born of the flesh. In like manner although there is promise of my birth in the Spirit, man is not a son of God until he is born of God’s spirit. It is the Spirit that gives life and it wasn’t until my spirit was birthed within me that I became a son of God and entered into His kingdom.

OK. I agree we are free in the Spirit. Our will is free of the body of sin and death to serve God. Still the body of sin does enjoy the pleasures of this world.

What I’m saying is, there are many, who having been given the gift of faith and being born of the Spirit who will go back to trying to achieve their goal by human effort. This is self righteousness, believing that the work of God is fulfilled in what we do. This is the element of the will, which I am referring to.

Of course I know that the flesh and the spirit will continue to be at war with each other – until we understand what it is to die to the flesh.

I wouldn't say his wrath is death. I would say his wrath is his anger. When Paul says, 'the wrath of God is revealed from heaven', he's saying we can see that God in his anger has given men up to dishonourable passions, and a base mind, and wickedness so that they will die. So you think the wicked just perish? In that case, then, why should they fear God? No. I think the furnace of fire exists for the devil and his angels, and everyone who hates God and his Word, and everyone who blasphemes his Spirit, and everyone who hates us

Yes, that is what I meant sorry. God's wrath is God’s anger. However the evidence of his wrath is manifest in different ways. Now you ask, “So you think the wicked just perish?" I’d like to see from the scripture you mention what eternal wrath you speak of. For it plainly stated The wrath of God is being revealed from heaven against all the godlessness and wickedness of men. This wrath does not speak of eternal punishement but in what is being revealed. And what is revealed? It speaks of their thinking becoming futile, having foolish hardened hearts, becoming fools. Of being given over to sinful desires and degrading their bodies and receiving the due penalty for their perversion. And rightly it says that those who do such things deserve death. Where is the eternal punishement in a furnace of fire? Yes it (hell) was created for the devil and his angels but not for all of those who you would seem to want to lump in with them.

[/quote:f3d9c]

 

[Voyageur]

I think a few of you have brought up good points with regard to foreknowledge and free will. I'm aware that it is fallacious to argue that simply because God knows all possible actions, that God has thus influenced all possible actions. (On a side note, I think the parent-child analogy is weak since parents are not omniscient.). I think we call all agree that neither argument proves anything.

However, a few problems remain:

1) If God knows the outcome of every decision one will make, then one is merely following a path that is determined (in God's sense of time, so to speak). Yes, one is still choosing, but choosing along a set path, even if God is not influencing the choice. If one could divert from the set path and surprise God, that would be a better indicator of Free Will. Moreover, if God merely observes the actions of our Free Will, an unintended wrinkle in God's omniscience occurs in that the possibility exists that human actions determine God's cognitions. Meaning, if we chose not to act, then God wouldn't have cognition--but this is rather absurd.

But, let us assume God knows who will be good and who will be evil. If God knows who will be good, the person has no choice to be otherwise (even if God did not influence the choice). If God knows who will be evil, the person also has no choice to be otherwise. It doesn't matter that God isn't mentally or physically influencing a man's actions; since God knows all actions, the paths are set. There can be no deviation from them. Actions and events must necessarily follow according to God's foreknowledge.

2) Prophecy & Revelation: This is related to the first point, but addresses Biblical prophecy instead of individual actions. If God reveals that something will come to pass (through a prophet, or the Book of Revelation, for example), then events cannot possibly be otherwise. Men or civilization cannot possibly avert from the present course, which is problematic for Free Will.

On a slightly different note, but perhaps still pertinent, is this: One's ability to will is not merely influenced by the present and visions of the possible future; it is also influenced by the past. If it is also influenced by one's past, then there were influences we could control and influences we could not control. Influences we could not control include: genetic predisposition, external factors like environment and parenting, schooling, religious upbringing, country of birth, etc. I see past influences as problematic with regard to Free Will. How? If someone has a genetic predisposition for violence, was mistreated and neglected, was not properly educated regarding morals and ethics, was born in a country prone to violence, it is likely that that person will end up displaying an evil disposition, or at least a misguided disposition. Free Will has to be redefined in this case.

 

[MarkT]

Hi mutzrein

Why then do you think that we should try to persuade men? Do you think that as men of the Spirit, we should seek to persuade those whose names are not written in the book of life.

Like Paul said, 'Therefore, knowing the fear of the Lord, we persuade men; but what we are is known to God, and I hope it is known also to your conscience. 2Co 5:11

Knowing the fear of the Lord, I guess it's just in us to speak to them, to warn them to turn from their wicked way, to save their life, whether they hear or refuse to hear. I'm talking about the fear of the Lord, not the fear of death. We don't speak of fear death to men. The wicked don't fear death. They love it.

The names are called who are destined to be called, and we must speak to them as the Spirit leads us to find them and speak to them. Just as Jesus had to do what he had to do; he sent the disciples to bring him the ass and the colt to enter Jerusalem, to fulfill the prophets, we do what we have to do. The message is by us. If not by us, then by whom? If they are called by God, we must still speak to them, to instruct them, to tell them the good news.

And why do you think that we should pray that God will have mercy on them? Do you think that as men of the Spirit we should test God?

We should pray for those who need prayer. Jesus said, 'Love your enemies, and pray for those who persecute you.' Mt.5:44 He said, 'Bless those who curse you, and pray for those who abuse you.' Lu. 6:28

And why do we believe anything is possible with God? Surely we must know and accept that it is impossible for God to lie.

Jesus said it will be hard for a rich man to enter the kingdom but with God all things are possible.

 

[Drew]

1) If God knows the outcome of every decision one will make, then one is merely following a path that is determined (in God's sense of time, so to speak). Yes, one is still choosing, but choosing along a set path, even if God is not influencing the choice. If one could divert from the set path and surprise God, that would be a better indicator of Free Will. Moreover, if God merely observes the actions of our Free Will, an unintended wrinkle in God's omniscience occurs in that the possibility exists that human actions determine God's cognitions. Meaning, if we chose not to act, then God wouldn't have cognition--but this is rather absurd.

Although I have not presented it here, there exists (in my view) a convincing argument that free will in no way restricts omniscience. This argument is somewhat tehnical and complex, but it is an entirely "secular" argument that actually has nothing to do with "God" but rather proves that any agent "A" can have perfect omniscient fore-knowledge of the actions of some other agent B, even if B acts freely. Your material above appeals to intuitions such as the intuition that God would need to "surprised" in order for free will to have been present. But this clearly begs the very question at issue.

If you research the philosophical literature on this, I suggest that you will come to the same conclusion that I have - there is no logical inchorence or contradiction in marrying up foreknowledge and free will. I think I can provide a link to the specific arguments if you wish. Because of their complexity, I am not willing to present the argument in my own words. Or, I can refer you to this topic where the argument is addressed:

viewtopic.php?f=14&t=16345

But, let us assume God knows who will be good and who will be evil. If God knows who will be good, the person has no choice to be otherwise (even if God did not influence the choice). If God knows who will be evil, the person also has no choice to be otherwise. It doesn't matter that God isn't mentally or physically influencing a man's actions; since God knows all actions, the paths are set.

I understand the appeal of such thinking. If you read the relevant arguments, you will discover, just like I did, that you are making an exceedingly subtle error in reasoning.

 

[Imagican]

Drew,

I don't know what your 'understanding' is concerning what you stated you 'believe' concerning the ability of man to HAVE free will and for God to STILL be able to KNOW what we will EXERCISE as free will, but here's some interesting observation:

Let me see if I can offer what may possibly be a little 'insight' into the 'workings' of God's ability to 'foresee' the future, and it may just be 'similar' to what you have already stated COULD be a very realisitic possibility:

Anyone familiar with the more complex understanding of 'higher math'? I am NOT a mathematician by any means. Rudimentary understanding of math and it's concepts at best, but here goes.

If there are those that ARE trained in the 'higher forms' you know that some problems contain outrageously complex and extended calculations to come to their conclusions. We have all seen the movies in which the Einstein or others take up chalk boards with their mathematical expressions in order to prove or disprove their theories of 'let's say' physics. There ARE those that ARE able to comprehend such methodical and complex trains of thought that make it POSSIBLE for them to 'have a greater understanding' of more complex questions concerning such things as 'gravity', the motion of planets, the trajectories of objects in space, etc.......

in order to PROVE these things, sometimes it takes DAYS of intricate formula to PRODUCE a 'reasonable' ESTIMATE of results.

What IF God, BEING so FAR ahead of mankind in understanding was ABLE upon the 'creation' of man to 'CALCULATE' precisely what the OUTCOME would be upon the ONSET of 'Creation'. That being SO capable of understanding, He was ABLE to accurately KNOW what man's ultimate END would be? The decisions that would be made, the course that man would take and even such intricacies as INDIVIDUAL choices?

Did He use mathematical equations to come to His conclusions? I am NOT saying this. This is simply an attempt to offer that EVEN mankind has been ABLE to understand the complex nature of the world around him through the discovery of physics, (higher, complex, mathematics). Is this not enough for us to plainly SEE that; if the Creation is so able to discover the mechanisms of the STARS, that God, being SO MUCH greater, could quite possibly have been able to discern the 'end result' of HIS 'Creation'. That upon the ADVENT He WAS able to discern the OUTCOME.

My point is that at times it seems that Mysticism takes the place of intellegent design for many. What IF it's NOT as MYSTICAL as we presume. That WE, being 'created in the image OF, ARE a reflection of the 'Creator' in our ABILITY to 'understand' WHAT He has CREATED. Yet HIS understanding surpases ours by as much as OURS surpases that of, let's say, a monkey, or better yet; an ameoba.

In this respect, God DID NOT 'force us' to make ANY choices. He was ABLE to discern what choices we would make and WHAT we would have to FACE and overcome. That KNOWING His Creation, He was able, JUST as it is able to be calculated; orbits and trajectories of 'space shuttles', the PATH that man would take, and through His conclusions, WAS ABLE to offer us the prophecy and predictions that we have been given through The Word.

Now, MY POINT; there is this question of 'free will' or 'destiny' of sorts. God KNOWING what 'path' we would follow does NOT necessitate ANY control over such events. That means that ONCE I can PROVE, through mathematic formula, that I HAVE the answer to a particular problem, at this point I AM ABLE TO OBSERVE the principle in ACTION. Through the WORKING of the formula I AM ABLE to SEE the result of the CORRECT answer. But that does NOT require ME to have CONTROL over the objects in question. They, that SEEMED 'random' previous to my UNDERSTANDING, are NOW able to be 'viewed in UNDERSTANDING their EXACT nature, WITHOUT my influence of their behavior; BUT THROUGH simple OBSERVATION.

Just because we have been offered in understanding that God KNEW the END at the formation of the BEGINNING does NOT offer that WE DO NOT HAVE individual 'free will'. For it has been made CLEAR Through scripture that we DO INDEED possess the ability to REBEL, AGREE, LOVE, HATE, CREATE, ETC.................. If these are not PERFECT 'proof' of FREE WILL then I don't know how else it COULD be 'proven'. But I can say that it most certainly CAN'T be 'dis-proven' through scripture or even basic understanding of The Word.

Does God influence those that He chooses? Most certainly. But does HE 'choose' who WILL or WON'T be 'saved'? That is a pretty bold statement that really, to answer YES, would negate the PURPOSE of testimony, the purpose to 'preaching', and EVEN THE NEED to LOVE. For IF it is simply bY His 'choice' alone, then there is an awful lot of what is taught as understanding that REFUTES this very claim.

Evil is NOT what many would interpret it AS. Evil is simply described as 'rebelion' AGAINST God's authority. That is NOT the outright 'ugliness' that has transpired in the imaginative HEARTS of MEN. Do you truly BELIEVE that Satan is all 'skulls and hideous monsters'? Satan simply revels in the DISOBEDIENCE of man. That is what brought HIM to his present state and he REVELS in US being lead in the SAME direction. The movies that we cherish that show the 'Jason Vorheeses' and 'Freddy Krugers' as the ULTIMATE personifications of EVIL are NOTHING other than 'fantasy'. The ULTIMATE personification of EVIL is nothing other than an 'envious Lucifer' rebelling against God for the sake of 'wanting to BE God'.

And the ULTIMATE 'form of evil' is that which is COMPLETELY opposite of 'what is GOOD'. God IS love, the opposite would be HATE. Due to our limited understanding of concepts that go LIGHT YEARS beyond us, these are the CLOSEST we can come to an understanding of the concept. But these are LIMITED words. Limited by our LIMITED understanding. In this light, perhaps Satan HAS been able to 'instill' a 'different meaning' of 'evil' than that which TRULY exists. Using his influence to alter our perceptions, it is US who has 'created' the 'torturous murders', the total degredation of 'some souls'. That TROUGH being OPPOSITE of God's Love, Satan's influence is ABLE to allow US to perform that which we DO through our OWN degenerate hearts. That the EVIL, TRUE EVIL, may be inspired as 'rebelion against God by Satan' but personified by and through OUR OWN HEARTS.

To 'sum all this up': Perhaps God doesn't want ANYTHING for us but to BE what we are CAPABLE of BEING so far as what would BENEFIT us. And that THROUGH the following of what is AGAINST His WILL, it is WE that 'have created' the PECEPTION of 'evil' that we have began to BELIEVE. But the ACTUAL definition of 'evil' is NOTHING more than 'rebelion' against that which God WILLS for us through His LOVE.

That God did NOT 'create EVIL'. It CAME into existence UPON the MOMENT that Lucifer REBELLED against the 'WILL OF GOD'. So in essence, EVIL was 'created' by Lucifer. God 'created' this 'angel', but in OFFERING THEM 'freedom of choice', THIS is what 'allowed' evil to COME INTO existence. And THAT Is the REASON that He ALLOWED it to become manifest; so that upon the COMPLETION of 'the time of man', evil COULD BE DEFEATED. That mankind COULD come to their OWN understanding of 'what is BEST' for them and this could ONLY come to fruition through LEARNING. And this learning ONLY through 'trial and error' of MAN HIMSELF. Through physical TIME.

MEC

 

[MarkT]

We certainly are in a race and I agree with you in many respects but I cannot agree that we know we have won. What we have been given is entry into the race. As Paul writes to the Galatians, “You were running a good race. Who cut in on you and kept you from obeying the truth? That kind of persuasion does not come from the one who calls you.â€Â
And with other references I would say there is no guarantee that we will win the race but still we run toward the prize. Unfortunately there will be some who do not win the crown. As far as calling is concerned, mine is to know the truth and make it known.

Paul was exhorting the Galatians to forget about circumcision, for, as he said, 'in Christ Jesus neither circumcision nor uncircumcision is of any avail.' Gal. 5:6 His letter says the Galatians were deserting Christ and turning to a different gospel. And he talks about some men who were troubling them, and trying to teach them to keep the law of circumcision.

This kind of exhortation doesn't mean they were lost. In fact, after lecturing them, Paul says, 'I am confident in the Lord that you will take no other view than mine; and he who is troubling you will bear his judgment, whoever he is.' Gal. 5:10

Scripture tells us that we were all dead (in trespasses and sin). So, prior to being given life, even though my name was written in the book of life, the Spirit had not been given me. Truly I was dead. And remember what happens to a seed when it is planted. It dies in order that it may bring forth much seed (fruit). But I digress.

Yes. Dead meaning without life. The prodigal son had squandered his inheritance. But it doesn't mean he was physically dead when he came to his senses, just as you were not physically dead when you heard the gospel. You had a righteous spirit to hear the gospel. Your soul thirsted for the words of God. You were in the world, experiencing life, not dead yet so that you could not hear and see, but at the point of death. Your soul was nearing the Pit. That's one criticism I have of Calvinism. The seed falls on good soil/a righteous spirit. You have to be good soil/a righteous spirit so that the seed can take root and the tree will bear good fruit. The fruit of the Spirit is love, joy, peace, patience, kindness, goodness, faithfulness. Ga. 5:22

I suppose in a manner of speaking I was a ‘promised’ son (in the flesh) since I was in my forebears loins. I think I hear what you are saying, however I cannot say that I was a son (in the flesh) until I was actually born of the flesh. In like manner although there is promise of my birth in the Spirit, man is not a son of God until he is born of God’s spirit. It is the Spirit that gives life and it wasn’t until my spirit was birthed within me that I became a son of God and entered into His kingdom.

Ok. But to be a 'son' in the flesh is to be a prophet or a teacher; a servant of God.

The parable is saying you are spirit. As your Father is spirit, so you are spirit. If God is your Father, and he is spirit, then you are spirit. Your Father's house is a spiritual house. To be in Christ is to be in your Father's house. The parable says you were his son before you entered into this world through your mother's womb. You were his son when you came to your senses, and turned back, and our Father restored your inheritance. Not everyone gets this understanding.

What I’m saying is, there are many, who having been given the gift of faith and being born of the Spirit who will go back to trying to achieve their goal by human effort. This is self righteousness, believing that the work of God is fulfilled in what we do. This is the element of the will, which I am referring to.

Of course I know that the flesh and the spirit will continue to be at war with each other – until we understand what it is to die to the flesh.

I agree. They think they can will something that isn't true.

Yes, that is what I meant sorry. God's wrath is God’s anger. However the evidence of his wrath is manifest in different ways. Now you ask, “So you think the wicked just perish?" I’d like to see from the scripture you mention what eternal wrath you speak of. For it plainly stated The wrath of God is being revealed from heaven against all the godlessness and wickedness of men. This wrath does not speak of eternal punishement but in what is being revealed. And what is revealed? It speaks of their thinking becoming futile, having foolish hardened hearts, becoming fools. Of being given over to sinful desires and degrading their bodies and receiving the due penalty for their perversion. And rightly it says that those who do such things deserve death. Where is the eternal punishement in a furnace of fire? Yes it (hell) was created for the devil and his angels but not for all of those who you would seem to want to lump in with them.

Their philosophy is that you live once, and then you die, so you might as well enjoy everything in life as much as possible. What is revealed from heaven is what is seen; God's anger. From our POV, knowing that God hates those things - they are an abomination to him - what we are seeing is God's anger. What we are seeing is God has blinded them to the truth of Jesus Christ, and he has given them up to do the things which they know God hates, which he has said will bring death. To them, death is what they already know. What they refuse to hear is the second death; the hell of fire.

 

[Voyageur]

Although I have not presented it here, there exists (in my view) a convincing argument that free will in no way restricts omniscience. This argument is somewhat tehnical and complex, but it is an entirely "secular" argument that actually has nothing to do with "God" but rather proves that any agent "A" can have perfect omniscient fore-knowledge of the actions of some other agent B, even if B acts freely. Your material above appeals to intuitions such as the intuition that God would need to "surprised" in order for free will to have been present. But this clearly begs the very question at issue.

I have researched literature on it, and seen the arguments for and against. I understand the fallacy that occurs in the argument when one considers that omniscience doesn't exactly force an individual to do anything. What I'm saying is this: the fact that God knows at all--that past, present and future are known to God simultaneously--is problematic. The Judeo-Christian tradition clearly implies that God is in perfect control of his creation (the universe); so it seems to me that if events are unfolding just as God has imagined, free will is an illusion.

Of course, I can no more prove my assertion than you can prove yours.

 

[MarkT]

Believing in God is like building an ark in the desert. People will laugh at you. They will hate you and hate your warning. They will seek to kill you. Do they have a choice? I suppose so. But it's entirely irrelevant if they think you are nuts. What's freewill and choice? A topic for discussion?

When people become so perverse in heart and mind that they take good for evil and evil for good, when they hate you for doing good and applaude those who do evil, when they shake their head at you, and laugh at you when you tell them about Christ, when they don't know what they are doing any more, when their teachers teach them evil is good and good is evil, then we have a problem. We have no communication. When you say you don't believe in Evolution, for example, or womens equality rights, they will think you're nuts. They will call you names, exclude you, laugh at you. They will punish you. Do they have a choice? I suppose so. But what does it matter if they think we must be out of our minds? If we say anything, they will hate us even more. If we tell them those who believe in the truth of those things will surely die, what do you think they will say?

God doesn't give us a choice to obey him. He doesn't need to convince us. When people start cursing their Maker, when their love of God turns to hate, then God will not answer them when disaster strikes. And then his righteous anger will be revealed in his Word, when man will feel the wrath of God.