How Do You Make Sense of Evil?

[Drew]

I understand the fallacy that occurs in the argument when one considers that omniscience doesn't exactly force an individual to do anything. What I'm saying is this: the fact that God knows at all--that past, present and future are known to God simultaneously--is problematic. The Judeo-Christian tradition clearly implies that God is in perfect control of his creation (the universe); so it seems to me that if events are unfolding just as God has imagined, free will is an illusion.

Of course, I can no more prove my assertion than you can prove yours.

First of all, I suggest that I can indeed prove my point that perfect foreknowledge and freewill are compatible. I would rather not take the time to do so, since the argument is complex.

Second, you seem to set-up the argument in a questionable manner. While many in the Judeo-Christian tradition hold that God fully and sufficiently controls every event in the universe, anyone who holds that position would be a fool to then claim that humans have free will.

I believe in the reality of human free will. I am on the fence about omniscience. But, for the sake of the argument, I will accept omniscience. My whole point is that there is no philosophical or logical problem with believing that God fully knows the future and that man has free will.

Although I know that what I am about to say seems to cast doubt on my position, I am simply unwilling to take the time to repeat a complex argument that is already provided in gory detail in the link I posted. So while I am not willing to actually repeat the proof, I think the proof is rock-solid.

 

[GraceBwithU]

I thought this threadd by it's tittle was to make sense of evil, not rehash a freewill edbate. Just to throw something else the thread about evil...I would like to know everyone's interpretations of these verses. Please note that Satan is not mentioned here or is he.

Judg 9:23
23 Then God sent an evil spirit between Abimelech and the men of Shechem; and the men of Shechem dealt treacherously with Abimelech:
KJV

1 Sam 16:14-23
14 But the Spirit of the Lord departed from Saul, and an evil spirit from the Lord troubled him.
15 And Saul's servants said unto him, Behold now, an evil spirit from God troubleth thee.
16 Let our lord now command thy servants, which are before thee, to seek out a man, who is a cunning player on an harp: and it shall come to pass, when the evil spirit from God is upon thee, that he shall play with his hand, and thou shalt be well.
17 And Saul said unto his servants, Provide me now a man that can play well, and bring him to me.
18 Then answered one of the servants, and said, Behold, I have seen a son of Jesse the Bethlehemite, that is cunning in playing, and a mighty valiant man, and a man of war, and prudent in matters, and a comely person, and the Lord is with him.
19 Wherefore Saul sent messengers unto Jesse, and said, Send me David thy son, which is with the sheep.
20 And Jesse took an ass laden with bread, and a bottle of wine, and a kid, and sent them by David his son unto Saul.
21 And David came to Saul, and stood before him: and he loved him greatly; and he became his armourbearer.
22 And Saul sent to Jesse, saying, Let David, I pray thee, stand before me; for he hath found favour in my sight.
23 And it came to pass, when the evil spirit from God was upon Saul, that David took an harp, and played with his hand: so Saul was refreshed, and was well, and the evil spirit departed from him.
KJV

 

[MarkT]

I thought this threadd by it's tittle was to make sense of evil, not rehash a freewill edbate. Just to throw something else the thread about evil...I would like to know everyone's interpretations of these verses. Please note that Satan is not mentioned here or is he.

Judg 9:23
23 Then God sent an evil spirit between Abimelech and the men of Shechem; and the men of Shechem dealt treacherously with Abimelech:
KJV

1 Sam 16:14-23
14 But the Spirit of the Lord departed from Saul, and an evil spirit from the Lord troubled him.
15 And Saul's servants said unto him, Behold now, an evil spirit from God troubleth thee.
16 Let our lord now command thy servants, which are before thee, to seek out a man, who is a cunning player on an harp: and it shall come to pass, when the evil spirit from God is upon thee, that he shall play with his hand, and thou shalt be well.
17 And Saul said unto his servants, Provide me now a man that can play well, and bring him to me.
18 Then answered one of the servants, and said, Behold, I have seen a son of Jesse the Bethlehemite, that is cunning in playing, and a mighty valiant man, and a man of war, and prudent in matters, and a comely person, and the Lord is with him.
19 Wherefore Saul sent messengers unto Jesse, and said, Send me David thy son, which is with the sheep.
20 And Jesse took an ass laden with bread, and a bottle of wine, and a kid, and sent them by David his son unto Saul.
21 And David came to Saul, and stood before him: and he loved him greatly; and he became his armourbearer.
22 And Saul sent to Jesse, saying, Let David, I pray thee, stand before me; for he hath found favour in my sight.
23 And it came to pass, when the evil spirit from God was upon Saul, that David took an harp, and played with his hand: so Saul was refreshed, and was well, and the evil spirit departed from him.
KJV

When God sends an evil spirit between men, it means he clouds their minds so that they can not see. Then the thought of doing evil enters into their heart.

The second quote is talking about how Saul was troubled in his spirit, that is, in his heart and mind. We would call it a depression. His ability to function was impaired until David sang to him.

 

[stranger]

From 'revelation' (scripture) we can make sense of evil.

 

[Catholic Crusader]

How Do You Make Sense of Evil?

I like this paragraph:

CCC 29 - But this "intimate and vital bond of man to God" (GS 19,1) can be forgotten, overlooked, or even explicitly rejected by man (GS 19 § 1). Such attitudes can have different causes: revolt against evil in the world; religious ignorance or indifference; the cares and riches of this world; the scandal of bad example on the part of believers; currents of thought hostile to religion; finally, that attitude of sinful man which makes him hide from God out of fear and flee his call (Cf. Mt 13:22; Gen 3:8-10; Jon 1:3; GS 19-21).

Some times evil cause people to even believe that God doesn't exist. That is why we must keep in mind:

CCC 35 - Man's faculties make him capable of coming to a knowledge of the existence of a personal God. But for man to be able to enter into real intimacy with him, God willed both to reveal himself to man and to give him the grace of being able to welcome this revelation in faith. The proofs of God's existence, however, can predispose one to faith and help one to see that faith is not opposed to reason.

source:
http://www.usccb.org/catechism/text/pt1sect1.htm#chpt1

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[MarkT]

How Do You Make Sense of Evil?

I like this paragraph:

CCC 29 - But this "intimate and vital bond of man to God" (GS 19,1) can be forgotten, overlooked, or even explicitly rejected by man (GS 19 § 1). Such attitudes can have different causes: revolt against evil in the world; religious ignorance or indifference; the cares and riches of this world; the scandal of bad example on the part of believers; currents of thought hostile to religion; finally, that attitude of sinful man which makes him hide from God out of fear and flee his call (Cf. Mt 13:22; Gen 3:8-10; Jon 1:3; GS 19-21).

Some times evil cause people to even believe that God doesn't exist. That is why we must keep in mind:

CCC 35 - Man's faculties make him capable of coming to a knowledge of the existence of a personal God. But for man to be able to enter into real intimacy with him, God willed both to reveal himself to man and to give him the grace of being able to welcome this revelation in faith. The proofs of God's existence, however, can predispose one to faith and help one to see that faith is not opposed to reason.

source:
http://www.usccb.org/catechism/text/pt1sect1.htm#chpt1

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The existence of evil?

Man was created in the image of God and because he was created in his image, man is a multi purpose vessel. That's not to say man was created for evil, but the fruit of the tree of the knowledge of good and evil, which was stolen, allows him to do both, good and evil. Therefore, he is a cup for both. And if he doesn't listen to God, then he is evil. Jesus called us evil. He wouldn't even call himself good; perhaps because knowing evil is not good. Still man has the knowledge and the ability to do both, and that is god-like. Man can plan it. He has the intelligence and the ability to do it. We are evil. Why would God make us? Why would God make anything of flesh and blood with life in it? The flesh is weak according to Jesus. The spirit might be willing to follow God, but the flesh wants the pleasures of life. So often we are disobedient to God to please the flesh. There's a tendancy to follow after false prophets also, again, to please the flesh. We follow after what is not true if it means we can enjoy this life and have God too. We try to serve two masters.

The question of the existence of evil is kind of strange. The fruit of the tree was the knowledge of good and evil. You can't know one without the other. How can you know the joy of God, without suffering evil? So the end of suffering is good, and those who suffer are called blessed. They are blessed.

 

[stranger]

Drew wrote:

Second, you seem to set-up the argument in a questionable manner. While many in the Judeo-Christian tradition hold that God fully and sufficiently controls every event in the universe, anyone who holds that position would be a fool to then claim that humans have free will.

I believe in the reality of human free will. I am on the fence about omniscience. But, for the sake of the argument, I will accept omniscience. My whole point is that there is no philosophical or logical problem with believing that God fully knows the future and that man has free will.

I have an observation that you might relate to. It is based upon an observation about Lutheranism. There is Lutheran (and its range of expression) and everyone else. Now it doesn't matter if you differ with those on the side of 'everyone else' for it is non-Lutheran. This group was called (loosely translated) 'those who think otherwise.'