Faith is not dead in the Reformist view of understanding God. The concept of the elect is not a faithless notion.
What I think happens in the minds of many when they try to understand what Calvin is saying here, is that Calvin is saying there is nothing you can do to be saved since you either will be or you won't be. That's where this misunderstanding comes in.
Of all the theologians I know of, none have complicated matters as much as Calvin, but none have conceptualized salvation quite like Calvin, using all of scripture quite like Calvin. When we read the bible do we accept all of it? Sure we do. However, our acceptance of all of it really depends on our condition as an accepting Christian.
Before I became a Christian I did not accept much of the bible at all. In my minds eye I made statements like; "This is ridiculous.", "That can't be right.", "If this, then this....." This is what people do in their search for truth, and at some point they make sticking points based solely on their own understanding to help them deal with what they don't understand, or have given up trying to.
People study Calvin and immediately apply it to themselves. That's fine, but it's worth more than just that, because it's an in depth, detailed and wider understanding of scripture than simply trying to figure out God's message for them individually.
One can be a Christian, can be saved, can have a beautiful relationship with God and NEVER have an understanding of what Calvin is saying, or even have the ability to read for that matter. God is not limited to just those who understand it all, because 1. They don't exist
and 2. if he is available to only those, very few would be saved and his work on the cross would be in vain, but I go back to point 1.
Calvin makes some striking statements and he backs them up with bold profound thoughts and use of scripture that many find shocking. More over upsetting as they try to reconcile their own salvation, and in their minds eye, they make statements like; "This is ridiculous.", "That can't be right.", "If this, then this....."
However, faith in ones faith is not enough to be saved. Faith in ones faith is useless. Wanting to believe and saying "I believe" does not count as being saved, but it also does not mean one is not going to be saved, or is not part of God's plan for salvation, or has no hope of it. That is why we need to place our faith in the one who has the plan, and not in ourselves, or our ability to understand.
Right now there is an atheist out their who not only does not believe, but who hates God, but who is also elect; who is part of God's plan to be saved and who will be regenerated as such for his purpose, and there are people in various degrees understanding or condition between that atheist and God who will also be saved as such, but in his good time,....and not theirs.
The hard message of Calvin is that we can't and don't choose our salvation, but that God does. That's the hurtle. We may want to be saved and, yes that's certainly a big part of it, but that desire to be such ....is it from us? Is it from our own doing? What do we know, other than what God has told us? Nothing, when it comes to salvation. In the end we are still left with trusting him, and not ourselves, regardless of our efforts.
I know a young man who does a lot of "On line dating"
...By this I mean he meets women on these dating web sites and they hook up for dates. He has developed some relationships out of them, but they always go south, and as they do he will often seek my advice on relationships, but he never accepts anything I have to say. One day I asked him; "Why are you doing this?" "Because"; he says. "I want to settle down." I want someone to be with that I can trust and be married to." "I don't want to die alone."
And so I tell him; "You can't trust anyone. Not even yourself, but the bigger thing is you will die alone, because no matter how many people are standing around your death bed you will be the only one doing the dying in that moment. Who are you going to trust then? What will it matter if you are married or not? " Our efforts to be saved are as useless as our efforts to not die....alone, because when it happens we don't have a choice, and we have all already been elected to do so. ;)
Danus---]Faith is not dead in the Reformist view of understanding God. The concept of the elect is not a faithless notion.
Grubal--- In the reformist view, man is sinful, evil, and decrepit, etc. Man cannot come to God unless God "choose" him before the foundation of the world. (called the elect)
Danus---What I think happens in the minds of many when they try to understand what Calvin is saying here, is that Calvin is saying there is nothing you can do to be saved since you either will be or you won't be. That's where this misunderstanding comes in.
Grubal---With all due respect, there is no misunderstanding. Calvin teaches that, only the elect are chosen to be a "Recipient" of God's Grace all others are damned...
Danus---Of all the theologians I know of, none have complicated matters as much as Calvin, but none have conceptualized salvation quite like Calvin, using all of scripture quite like Calvin.
Grubal---First of all, I take into consideration what history say's of John Calvin. He was not a "good" man by ANY stretch of the imagination. It can't be denied, that he did not deal well with opposition to his doctrine's. He had people killed for opposing his views. Seemed more like a "pharisee" type than anything. Calvin's "beliefs" did not originate with him but, his name is attached to these doctrines none the less. His view of Salvation is diffidently not shared by ALL in the Christian community.
Danus--- Before I became a Christian I did not accept much of the bible at all. In my minds eye I made statements like; "This is ridiculous.", "That can't be right.", "If this, then this....." This is what people do in their search for truth, and at some point they make sticking points based solely on their own understanding to help them deal with what they don't understand, or have given up trying to.
Grubal---Than, if you've truly been Born-again Spiritually, this pondering of your's, was the work of the Holy Spirit convicting and striving with you (as with ALL men) to come to Christ. And at some point you placed your faith in Christ and you became, Spiritually re-born...
Danus---People study Calvin and immediately apply it to themselves. That's fine, but it's worth more than just that, because it's an in depth, detailed and wider understanding of scripture than simply trying to figure out God's message for them individually.
Grubal---His conclusions are based upon his, personal interpretation of Scripture, and not based on what the Scripture is actually saying. In my opinion...Calvin, by no means has the, last word...
Danus---Calvin makes some striking statements and he backs them up with bold profound thoughts
Grubal---Calvin does not seem to look upon his fellow man anything other than evil, unable to do anything good, etc. And that may account for his destruction of more than a few who came against him. His "profound" thoughts were his own, and not necessarily inspired by the indwelling Holy Spirit.
Danus--- However, faith in ones faith is not enough to be saved. Faith in ones faith is useless
Grubal---We must come to Christ "believing" He is our Lord and Savior. We have been given, by God the ability to choose what we will believe. Mustard seed faith is OUR weak human faith but God through the Holy Spirit is able to give us, the faith of Christ. Lord I believe help my unbelief, remember that story in the Bible? It is NOT faith in our faith that saves us, It's the faith we place in Christ that begins the process of the utilization of God's Grace...
Danus---However, faith in ones faith is not enough to be saved. Faith in ones faith is useless. Wanting to believe and saying "I believe" does not count as being saved
Grubal---Remember the Word says, the demons "believe" and tremble. I know what your saying here. But our, "Mustard seed faith" initiates the Salvation process, and again, it takes the application (by the Holy Spirit) of Christ's faith. Salvation doesn't depend on our works, but it is faith that pleases God remember, that's what the Word says...
Danus--- That is why we need to place our faith in the one who has the plan, and not in ourselves, or our ability to understand.
Grubal---In 1 John -5:13 it says, "These things I have written to you who believe in the name of the Son of God, that you may "KNOW"that you have eternal life, and that you may continue to believe in the name of the Son of God. God wants us to understand His Grace, He wants us to "KNOW" and in order to "know something you HAVE to have knowledge and understanding. Remember the Word says, God is not the author of confusion...
Danus--- Right now there is an atheist out their who not only does not believe, but who hates God, but who is also elect; who is part of God's plan to be saved
Grubal---This person of which you speak, will have perhaps many opportunity's to receive God's Grace during his lifetime. Due to the fact that the Holy Spirit is at work in the world to bring ALL men to a saving knowledge Of Christ and Him crucified. God does not "force" Himself on anyone. Maybe this man will receive the truth of God's Grace or maybe he will reject it...Remember, we (The Saved by Grace and initiated by our "mustard seed faith") are predestined to become conformed to the image of His Son...and elected to serve God and witness to a world of lost sinners...
Danus---The hard message of Calvin is that we can't and don't choose our salvation, but that God does. That's the hurtle.
Grubal--- The real hurtle is to realize that, that's Calvin's conclusion, and not backed by Scripture, with all respect...
Danus--- Is it from our own doing? What do we know, other than what God has told us? Nothing, when it comes to salvation. In the end we are still left with trusting him, and not ourselves, regardless of our efforts.
Grubal Faith comes from hearing and hearing from the Word of God (The Bible) indeed we do trust in Christ alone. And we cannot depend on our works, but we must place our "mustard seed faith" in the only one that has the answer...
Danus--- Our efforts to be saved are as useless as our efforts to not die....alone, because when it happens we don't have a choice, and we have all already been elected to do so. ;)[/QUOTE]
Grubal---It's not, of our efforts that gets us saved. It's putting our trust (faith) in the One who is able to show mercy, forgiveness, love, etc. His Son paid the price for us ALL. The sin question has been taken care of at the cross. It's through the Atonement of Christ that anyone of us can come before almighty God, and place what little human faith we have "ONLY" in Him. He did the rest all He asks is, that we believe (faith) Lord I believe help my unbelief...
