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-How Does God Desire The Keeping Of HIS &th Day Sabbath-

  • Thread starter Thread starter Elijah674
  • Start date Start date
Re: -How Does God Desire The Keeping Of HIS &th Day Sammath-

You have heard the old saying that you can't teach old dogs new tricks? Well, in the case where this one cannot understand LOVING GOD, + these ones who will be blotted from the universe if there is NO improvement! But to remain silent is NO such love.

--Elijah
But to do that (not remain silent) without such love is what's so wrong about it.

This is more of the rationalization that accompanies the doctrinal belief that claims to know what service and worship pleases God, and which is more important than how it treats the people it's hoping to educate and save. I don't have to be a defender of Mosaic worship law observance to know about the deceitfulness of thinking doctrinal beliefs and worship styles are what count with God above and beyond his command to 'love your neighbor as yourself'. It may well be the biggest religious deceit among men and is seen in all the religions of the world, and is characterized by a contempt and hatred for those who don't agree with us.
 
Re: -How Does God Desire The Keeping Of HIS &th Day Sammath-

Sabbath keeping doctrine says Sabbath keeping is a greater expression of the command to love God than 'love your neighbor as yourself' is. I say, scripturally, this is simply not true. In fact, not even close. Those who adhere to the Mosaic worship commands are not the only ones who believe this. It's just that the rest of us in the church have different expressions of love for God that we think are greater expressions of love for God than the command to love him by treating people nicely and with respect and being at peace with them. The 'law' of the church today that is regarded as the most important expression of love for God is church attendance, church service, reading the Bible, prayer, baptism, operating in a gift, witnessing, giving to the church, and carefully adhering to a particular worship style and doctrinal statement. We are just as deceived as the law keeping crowd, just in regard to different expressions of the command to 'love God'. Obedience is better than sacrifice. And God doesn't even want the sacrifice of our worship and service unless we first obey him in being at peace with others (Matthew 5:24 NIV). This seems to be the elusive truth of the church. This is what being on the narrow road that few find is all about. Love for others, including our enemies (especially?), is the great distinguishing mark between those who really do know God and those who just think they do, deceived by the sacrifice of their worship and service (Matthew 7:21-23 NIV) and their association with and exposure to the ways and teachings of Christ and the church (Luke 13:26-27 NIV). We each have the obligation to show we really do know God and have his approval in salvation by loving others and treating them kindly, compassionately, and with respect. If we can't do that then we have to take a hard look at ourselves to see whether we really are saved or not. That's what 'making our calling and election sure' is all about. A tree is judged by it's fruit, not by it's outer adornment of leaves. The people of God seem to do well at majoring in the showy leaves of the kingdom, and not so much in bearing the fruit of the kingdom.

Probably the best worded and most relevant teaching I have ever read on any Christian Forum, ever.


JLB
I don't know what to say. This means more to me than you probably know. I devoted my life to the ministry of this message to the church many years ago in a prayer circle because I, too, saw it as the most relevant, and important, message to the church today. One that transformed my own life and set the course of my Christian compass. So you can see how much it means to me to see someone light up with the same revelation of this remarkable truth.

Thank you.

Spread the Word.
 
Re: -How Does God Desire The Keeping Of HIS &th Day Sammath-

I second the motion.
We need to show our love to those around us, in church, at work, the neighborhood, to all those that God puts in our life.
It's a great practice to get into.
 
Re: -How Does God Desire The Keeping Of HIS &th Day Sammath-

I second the motion.
We need to show our love to those around us, in church, at work, the neighborhood, to all those that God puts in our life.
It's a great practice to get into.

This sounds like 1/2 of what the attorney was told from Christ. Love the sinner. But how can one love one who does not have God in first place?

This surely sounds ECUMENICAL to me. A whole bunch lost in a world flood because the ARK DOOR was shut. So these ones are to be LOVED. And the rebellion of Korah with 250 princes famous in the congregation' men of renown??? And it was God ((CHRIST!)) who opened up the earth & destroyed them ALL! (Acts 7:38!)

And as for LOVE? We are to Love the sinner and still HATE THE SIN! But who can understand this, surely not these all of Rev. 17:5 ones who are the daughters of their mother.

--Elijah

PS: And this is why we need more of 'your kind of thinkers' in the ministry!
 
Re: -How Does God Desire The Keeping Of HIS &th Day Sammath-

This sounds like 1/2 of what the attorney was told from Christ. Love the sinner. But how can one love one who does not have God in first place?

Once you discover that you "can't" love, or rather don't have the kind of love that God requires, then hopefully it will cause you to go to your knees and learn from Him the way of the cross, that you would be crucified to self love and filled with His Love.

That would be a good place to start.

JLB
 
Re: -How Does God Desire The Keeping Of HIS &th Day Sammath-

This sounds like 1/2 of what the attorney was told from Christ. Love the sinner. But how can one love one who does not have God in first place?

Once you discover that you "can't" love, or rather don't have the kind of love that God requires, then hopefully it will cause you to go to your knees and learn from Him the way of the cross, that you would be crucified to self love and filled with His Love.

That would be a good place to start.

JLB

That is just 'more' of what [we] want to hear! Rev. 17:5

--Elijah
 
Re: -How Does God Desire The Keeping Of HIS &th Day Sammath-

But how can one love one who does not have God in first place?
Christ did a good job of it. Let's learn from his example on the cross, dying for people who did not have God, "entrust(ing) himself to him who judges justly" (1 Peter 2:23 NIV), so they could have God.


I hope you're not saying we do not have to treat people with respect and dignity who do not have God in the first place. Are you?
 
Re: -How Does God Desire The Keeping Of HIS &th Day Sammath-

But how can one love one who does not have God in first place?
Christ did a good job of it. Let's learn from his example on the cross, dying for people who did not have God, "entrust(ing) himself to him who judges justly" (1 Peter 2:23 NIV), so they could have God.


I hope you're not saying we do not have to treat people with respect and dignity who do not have God in the first place. Are you?

No. But what you are saying is that Christ died for all people! And No, I believe that that is folk-lore, He died only for the ones that His Father gave him.
--Elijah

PS: Otherwise, who would be lost?
 
Re: -How Does God Desire The Keeping Of HIS &th Day Sammath-

But how can one love one who does not have God in first place?
Christ did a good job of it. Let's learn from his example on the cross, dying for people who did not have God, "entrust(ing) himself to him who judges justly" (1 Peter 2:23 NIV), so they could have God.


I hope you're not saying we do not have to treat people with respect and dignity who do not have God in the first place. Are you?

No. But what you are saying is that Christ died for all people! And No, I believe that that is folk-lore, He died only for the ones that His Father gave him.
--Elijah

PS: Otherwise, who would be lost?

Ok, I get what your saying.

For God so loved "only the ones that the Father chose", not For God so loved the world.

You are now preaching "another Gospel".


JLB
 
Re: -How Does God Desire The Keeping Of HIS &th Day Sammath-

Ceremonial law keeping is not the measure of love for God that counts. The
measure of one's love for God is their love for others, not whether they
are circumcised, or keep a Sabbath, or a Festival, etc.

Now this is rather interesting - please notice where I've placed emphasizes on in your statement by the letters in Bold.

Let's examine showing Love, and a certain example Jesus gave concerning the Commandments (not ceremonial).

Mathew 22:37 Jesus said to him, “‘You shall love the Lord your God with all your heart, with all your soul, and with all your mind.’[d] 38 This is the first and great commandment. 39 And the second is like it: ‘You shall love your neighbor as yourself.’[e] 40 On these two commandments hang all the Law and the Prophets.â€

There were some asking Jesus which was the Greatest Commandment?

And what did Jesus do with the question? Well, he played a trick on them ... how so?

Upon close examination we see that Jesus simply abbreviated or summarized the commandments into two parts. The first and great commandment is to love God. This incorporates no other gods, no idols, not using his name in vain and the Sabbath.

The second commandment is respect your parents, no murdering, no infidelity, no lying, no stealing and no lusting.

This is how you show Love.

If you don't see the clarity in this, it's because you don't want to. And that's ok with me, no offense taken since they are not MY commandments;)

There are those of us who see the clarity of your statements...

1Jn 5:2 By this we know that we love the children of God, when we love God, and keep his commandments.
1Jn 5:3 For this is the love of God, that we keep his commandments: and his commandments are not grievous.
 
Re: -How Does God Desire The Keeping Of HIS &th Day Sammath-

Ceremonial law keeping is not the measure of love for God that counts. The
measure of one's love for God is their love for others, not whether they
are circumcised, or keep a Sabbath, or a Festival, etc.

Now this is rather interesting - please notice where I've placed emphasizes on in your statement by the letters in Bold.

Let's examine showing Love, and a certain example Jesus gave concerning the Commandments (not ceremonial).

Mathew 22:37 Jesus said to him, “‘You shall love the Lord your God with all your heart, with all your soul, and with all your mind.’[d] 38 This is the first and great commandment. 39 And the second is like it: ‘You shall love your neighbor as yourself.’[e] 40 On these two commandments hang all the Law and the Prophets.”

There were some asking Jesus which was the Greatest Commandment?

And what did Jesus do with the question? Well, he played a trick on them ... how so?

Upon close examination we see that Jesus simply abbreviated or summarized the commandments into two parts. The first and great commandment is to love God. This incorporates no other gods, no idols, not using his name in vain and the Sabbath.

The second commandment is respect your parents, no murdering, no infidelity, no lying, no stealing and no lusting.

This is how you show Love.

If you don't see the clarity in this, it's because you don't want to. And that's ok with me, no offense taken since they are not MY commandments;)

There are those of us who see the clarity of your statements...

1Jn 5:2 By this we know that we love the children of God, when we love God, and keep his commandments.
1Jn 5:3 For this is the love of God, that we keep his commandments: and his commandments are not grievous.

But what would Christ know?

Joh 14:15 If ye love me, keep my commandments.

Joh 14:21 He that hath my commandments, and keepeth them, he it is that loveth me: and he that loveth me shall be loved of my Father, and I will love him, and will manifest myself to him.

Joh 15:10 If ye keep my commandments, ye shall abide in my love; even as I have kept my Father's commandments, and abide in his love.
 
Re: -How Does God Desire The Keeping Of HIS &th Day Sammath-

Ceremonial law keeping is not the measure of love for God that counts. The
measure of one's love for God is their love for others, not whether they
are circumcised, or keep a Sabbath, or a Festival, etc.
Now this is rather interesting - please notice where I've placed emphasizes on in your statement by the letters in Bold.

Let's examine showing Love, and a certain example Jesus gave concerning the Commandments (not ceremonial).

Mathew 22:37 Jesus said to him, “‘You shall love the Lord your God with all your heart, with all your soul, and with all your mind.’[d] 38 This is the first and great commandment. 39 And the second is like it: ‘You shall love your neighbor as yourself.’[e] 40 On these two commandments hang all the Law and the Prophets.â€

There were some asking Jesus which was the Greatest Commandment?

And what did Jesus do with the question? Well, he played a trick on them ... how so?

Upon close examination we see that Jesus simply abbreviated or summarized the commandments into two parts. The first and great commandment is to love God. This incorporates no other gods, no idols, not using his name in vain and the Sabbath.

The second commandment is respect your parents, no murdering, no infidelity, no lying, no stealing and no lusting.

This is how you show Love.

If you don't see the clarity in this, it's because you don't want to. And that's ok with me, no offense taken since they are not MY commandments;)

There are those of us who see the clarity of your statements...

1Jn 5:2 By this we know that we love the children of God, when we love God, and keep his commandments.
1Jn 5:3 For this is the love of God, that we keep his commandments: and his commandments are not grievous.

Then there are those of us who actually see the truth.

37 Jesus said to him, "'You shall love the Lord your God with all your heart, with all your soul, and with all your mind.' 38 This is the first and great commandment. 39 And the second is like it: 'You shall love your neighbor as yourself.' 40 On these two commandments hang all the Law and the Prophets." Matthew 22:37-40

To state that the "Law and the prophets" is the ten commandments is a distorted perspective, at best.


JLB
 
Re: -How Does God Desire The Keeping Of HIS &th Day Sammath-

Jesus himself tells us whats more important:


23 “Woe to you, teachers of the law and Pharisees, you hypocrites! You give a tenth of your spices—mint, dill and cumin. But you have neglected the more important matters of the law—justice, mercy and faithfulness. You should have practiced the latter, without neglecting the former. 24 You blind guides! You strain out a gnat but swallow a camel.

25 “Woe to you, teachers of the law and Pharisees, you hypocrites! You clean the outside of the cup and dish, but inside they are full of greed and self-indulgence. 26 Blind Pharisee! First clean the inside of the cup and dish, and then the outside also will be clean.



The literal law keeping movement says the outward worship stipulations are the greater expression of love for God. But Jesus says what kind of person you are inside is the more important thing. He says to clean the inside first.

The greater expression of love for God is 'love your neighbor as yourself', not 'keep Sabbath'.
 
Re: -How Does God Desire The Keeping Of HIS &th Day Sammath-

But how can one love one who does not have God in first place?
Christ did a good job of it. Let's learn from his example on the cross, dying for people who did not have God, "entrust(ing) himself to him who judges justly" (1 Peter 2:23 NIV), so they could have God.


I hope you're not saying we do not have to treat people with respect and dignity who do not have God in the first place. Are you?

No. But what you are saying is that Christ died for all people! And No, I believe that that is folk-lore, He died only for the ones that His Father gave him.
--Elijah

PS: Otherwise, who would be lost?
Let's not lose sight of why were talking about this.

It seems your saying I only have to be nice and considerate to saved people. That's exactly the conditional love that Jesus said NOT to have.
 
Re: -How Does God Desire The Keeping Of HIS &th Day Sammath-

Ceremonial law keeping is not the measure of love for God that counts. The measure of one's love for God is their love for others, not whether they are circumcised, or keep a Sabbath, or a Festival, etc.

"Whoever claims to love God yet hates a brother or sister is a liar." (1 John 4:20 NIV)

In fact, God doesn't even want the sacrifice of our service and worship if we don't first love others:

"23 “...if you are offering your gift at the altar and there remember that your brother or sister has something against you, 24 leave your gift there in front of the altar. First go and be reconciled to them; then come and offer your gift." (Matthew 5:23-24 NIV)


'Religious' duty will NEVER replace or make up for the disobedience of not treating other people with godly love. This is what the prophets condemned the Israelites about--outward law keeping, but inward wickedness.

If a person draws the surety of their salvation and God's pleasure in them from the keeping of the ceremonial requirements of the law they are terribly deceived. Salvation and love for God is measured by how it loves others, including--and maybe especially--it's enemies. Which is interesting because in the church it seems that we think we don't have to be nice to others in the church if they have what we perceive to be questionable doctrine, not knowing it's how we treat our 'enemies' that determines if we really know God or not.

"The only thing that counts is love expressing itself through love." (Galatians 5:6 NIV)

The last message is for the World. And the simplicity of it is... 'If ye love me, keep my commandments'. Now I grant you second place on my agenda.

Matt. 22
[35] Then one of them, which was a lawyer, asked him a question, tempting him, and saying,
[36] Master, which is the great commandment in the law?
[37] Jesus said unto him, Thou shalt love the Lord thy God with all thy heart, and with all thy soul, and with all thy mind.

[38] This is the first and great commandment.

[39] And the second is like unto it, Thou shalt love thy neighbour as thyself.

So friend, the [[only thing that I hate about you are your very false teachings]].
But I doubt that you can understand that?

--Elijah
What I understand is that's how emotionally charged doctrine rationalizes not being nice to those who have opposing doctrines. In much the same way some believers rationalize their harsh, condescending treatment of unbelievers.

But anyway, you posted while I was composing my response to Joe. That response speaks to what your're saying here. Sabbath keeping doctrine says Sabbath keeping is a greater expression of the command to love God than 'love your neighbor as yourself' is. I say, scripturally, this is simply not true. In fact, not even close.

Those who adhere to the Mosaic worship commands are not the only ones who believe this. It's just that the rest of us in the church have different expressions of love for God that we think are greater expressions of love for God than the command to love him by treating people nicely and with respect and being at peace with them. The 'law' of the church today that is regarded as the most important expression of love for God is church attendance, church service, reading the Bible, prayer, baptism, operating in a gift, witnessing, giving to the church, and carefully adhering to a particular worship style and doctrinal statement. We are just as deceived as the law keeping crowd, just in regard to different expressions of the command to 'love God'.

Obedience is better than sacrifice. And God doesn't even want the sacrifice of our worship and service unless we first obey him in being at peace with others (Matthew 5:24 NIV). This seems to be the elusive truth of the church. This is what being on the narrow road that few find is all about. Love for others, including our enemies (especially?), is the great distinguishing mark between those who really do know God and those who just think they do, deceived by the sacrifice of their worship and service (Matthew 7:21-23 NIV) and their association with and exposure to the ways and teachings of Christ and the church (Luke 13:26-27 NIV).

We each have the obligation to show we really do know God and have his approval in salvation by loving others and treating them kindly, compassionately, and with respect. If we can't do that then we have to take a hard look at ourselves to see whether we really are saved or not. That's what 'making our calling and election sure' is all about. A tree is judged by it's fruit, not by it's outer adornment of leaves. The people of God seem to do well at majoring in the showy leaves of the kingdom, and not so much in bearing the fruit of the kingdom.


Let me be clear with this [[REMARK.]] I do not know who you are, or if you might be one of several people even? But it IS YOUR POSTS that 'i' am responding to... again, [IT IS YOUR POSTS] which I am responding to!

OK: Now for these [[postings]]. In most of them you talk of LOVEING the ones who are making mistakes. And then in others you talk of these same ones who do so and will not be saved. Which way is it??? (you talk out of both sides of your mouth!)

Treating who kindly??? The sinner or the teaching of any person who constantly disobeys God?

Now: When any person meets God at the final Judgment, it is then that it is all over with! And up until this time, there is still HOPE! (see Dan. 12:1-2 & Heb. 11:1-2 & ibid 13 ALL DIEING IN THE FATITH)

And whoever you are??? You are not correct in your teaching as 'i' see it.

--Elijah
 
Re: -How Does God Desire The Keeping Of HIS &th Day Sammath-

I do not know who you are, or if you might be one of several people even?

All the more reason for you to show love and respect to him.

Be kind to strangers for many have entertained angels unaware.

This admonition does not consider who the stranger is or whether they are saved or unsaved.


JLB
 
Re: -How Does God Desire The Keeping Of HIS &th Day Sammath-

OK: Now for these [[postings]]. In most of them you talk of LOVEING the ones who are making mistakes. And then in others you talk of these same ones who do so and will not be saved. Which way is it??? (you talk out of both sides of your mouth!)
Why is godly love conditional on whether someone is saved or not? Can I be impatient, unkind, rude, and disrespectful to those I consider lost?

The point of all this is too many in the church think proper doctrines and worship is the epitome of knowing and serving God. You see this especially in the law keeping movements. But, as I say, it's really a church wide, religion wide, world wide problem.

What the true God wants above all else is justice and mercy, not the sacrifice of worship and service. Men tend to measure their approval with God by their doctrinal beliefs, whether they're correct or not, and their worship systems, whether they are the approved and acceptable forms of worship. But scripturally it is godly character that is head and shoulders above worship and service in regard to what counts with God.

Sabbath keepers often use their obedience to the Sabbath law as the measure of not only the quality of their relationship with God, but whether they or anybody else even has that relationship to begin with. That is the terrible deceit of external 'religion'. A relationship with God is measured by ones character, not what day they worship God on, or how they do that. The fallout of all this is legalistic religion is brutal, harsh, even murderous. Like the Jews, when the externals get mistakenly elevated above character, you have people actually violating God's requirements not keeping them as they are so sure they are doing.
 
Re: -How Does God Desire The Keeping Of HIS &th Day Sammath-

OK: Now for these [[postings]]. In most of them you talk of LOVEING the ones who are making mistakes. And then in others you talk of these same ones who do so and will not be saved. Which way is it??? (you talk out of both sides of your mouth!)
Why is godly love conditional on whether someone is saved or not? Can I be impatient, unkind, rude, and disrespectful to those I consider lost?

The point of all this is too many in the church think proper doctrines and worship is the epitome of knowing and serving God. You see this especially in the law keeping movements. But, as I say, it's really a church wide, religion wide, world wide problem.

What the true God wants above all else is justice and mercy, not the sacrifice of worship and service. Men tend to measure their approval with God by their doctrinal beliefs, whether they're correct or not, and their worship systems, whether they are the approved and acceptable forms of worship. But scripturally it is godly character that is head and shoulders above worship and service in regard to what counts with God.

Sabbath keepers often use their obedience to the Sabbath law as the measure of not only the quality of their relationship with God, but whether they or anybody else even has that relationship to begin with. That is the terrible deceit of external 'religion'. A relationship with God is measured by ones character, not what day they worship God on, or how they do that. The fallout of all this is legalistic religion is brutal, harsh, even murderous. Like the Jews, when the externals get mistakenly elevated above character, you have people actually violating God's requirements not keeping them as they are so sure they are doing.

Not this one!

--Elijah
 
Re: -How Does God Desire The Keeping Of HIS &th Day Sammath-

OK: Now for these [[postings]]. In most of them you talk of LOVEING the ones who are making mistakes. And then in others you talk of these same ones who do so and will not be saved. Which way is it??? (you talk out of both sides of your mouth!)
Why is godly love conditional on whether someone is saved or not? Can I be impatient, unkind, rude, and disrespectful to those I consider lost?

The point of all this is too many in the church think proper doctrines and worship is the epitome of knowing and serving God. You see this especially in the law keeping movements. But, as I say, it's really a church wide, religion wide, world wide problem.

What the true God wants above all else is justice and mercy, not the sacrifice of worship and service. Men tend to measure their approval with God by their doctrinal beliefs, whether they're correct or not, and their worship systems, whether they are the approved and acceptable forms of worship. But scripturally it is godly character that is head and shoulders above worship and service in regard to what counts with God.

Sabbath keepers often use their obedience to the Sabbath law as the measure of not only the quality of their relationship with God, but whether they or anybody else even has that relationship to begin with. That is the terrible deceit of external 'religion'. A relationship with God is measured by ones character, not what day they worship God on, or how they do that. The fallout of all this is legalistic religion is brutal, harsh, even murderous. Like the Jews, when the externals get mistakenly elevated above character, you have people actually violating God's requirements not keeping them as they are so sure they are doing.

Not this one!

--Elijah

Then you agree that 'love your neighbor as yourself' is a greater expression of love for God than 'keep Sabbath'?
 
Re: -How Does God Desire The Keeping Of HIS &th Day Sammath-

Jethro - there is a phrase that I do not hear to often these days but it was a good one!

It goes like this, "there is no such thing as a white lie", others say it like this, "there is no such thing as a small lie". In any case the wisdom behind it teaches that once a lie is told, the damage of deceit remains the same. Deceit is deceit no matter how you slice it. Many of us have lied only to find out that we had to keep lying in order to hide the first lie. It just escalates.

No imagine if the children of God were allowed to slowly pick apart the validity of any scripture?

After a while, humanity would just shred the bible into pieces by the time were are done with it.

My wisdom here is simple, if we pick apart the Sabbath, then its fair game to pick apart anything else.

Perhaps the reason why Jesus said not one jot or title will pass from the Law till all be fulfilled. Seems to me that he was ahead of us on this one. We can't say that he fulfilled it and did away with it because he also said Heaven and Earth will pass away before all is fulfilled. We are still on Earth.
 
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