How does God Judge those who never heard the gospel of Christ?

[Alfred Persson]

Seeing as you failed completely to rebut my responses, that is a very fitting reaction to your reply.


A redacted video. What did they have to hide?

Didn't hide anything, I corrected mistakes. Youtube algorithim doesn't like reposting the same video with minor corrections, so I deleted the video, which was up only a few hours. Here is the corrected version:

As for answering every post, don't have time to do that anymore.

PS: Redaction is where text is "blacked out", deletion is where its deleted. Good to know the difference.

 

[brightfame52]

As belief or non-belief in Christ are the only grounds for salvation or condemnation (Matthew 21:42; Mark 12:10; John 3:16-18; 5:24; 14:6; 20:31; Acts 4:11-12; Rom. 10:9; 1 Tim. 2:5-6; 1 Peter 2:6-8; 1 John 5:11-12), how does God judge those who never heard of Christ or heard disinformation about Him?

It depends on whether or not Christ died for them, for their sins. If He died for an individual and put away their sins, including unbelief, then they are justified whether they hear the Gospel or not. The Gospel is mainly for information to the saved, it doesnt save them from their sins one way or the other, only Christ accomplished that. Now if a person Christ didnt die for never hears the Gospel, they still will be judged and condemned for their sins against God.

 

[Alfred Persson]

It depends on whether or not Christ died for them, for their sins. If He died for an individual and put away their sins, including unbelief, then they are justified whether they hear the Gospel or not. The Gospel is mainly for information to the saved, it doesnt save them from their sins one way or the other, only Christ accomplished that. Now if a person Christ didnt die for never hears the Gospel, they still will be judged and condemned for their sins against God.

Christ died for everyone, people opt out when they don't believe. The gospel is preached to give them a choice. Its repeated "belief" is necessary, which can't happen unless someone points to Christ as the person to believe in:

14 "And as Moses lifted up the serpent in the wilderness, even so must the Son of Man be lifted up,
15 "that whoever believes in Him should not perish but have eternal life.
16 "For God so loved the world that He gave His only begotten Son, that whoever believes in Him should not perish but have everlasting life.
(Jn. 3:14-16 NKJ)

I reject limited atonement, its an inference repudiated by scripture. God gave His Son for the entire "world" (kosmos), not just parts of it.

And He Himself is the propitiation for our sins, and not for ours only but also for the whole world. (1 Jn. 2:2 NKJ)

 

[locust]

As belief or non-belief in Christ are the only grounds for salvation or condemnation (Matthew 21:42; Mark 12:10; John 3:16-18; 5:24; 14:6; 20:31; Acts 4:11-12; Rom. 10:9; 1 Tim. 2:5-6; 1 Peter 2:6-8; 1 John 5:11-12), how does God judge those who never heard of Christ or heard disinformation about Him?

to give an answer there is an event yet to happen
Acts 24:15 And I have hope toward God, which hope these men also look forward to, that there is going to be a resurrection of both the righteous and the unrighteous.

after that there will be a need for those that were then resurrected to live to a certain standard. If they then refuse ,the lake of fire . which means their destruction .

 

[brightfame52]

Alfred Persson

Christ died for everyone, people opt out when they don't believe.

Sorry but you started out in error !

 

[Alfred Persson]

Alfred Persson



Sorry but you started out in error !

Even Calvin can be saved, if he believes while in hades, roasting for limited atonement theory.

 

[brightfame52]

Even Calvin can be saved, if he believes while in hades, roasting for limited atonement theory.

Sorry but you started out in error ! Christs Death was limited to the Elect !

 

[Alfred Persson]

Sorry but you started out in error ! Christs Death was limited to the Elect !

God gave His only begotten Son for the whole world, not just a small part of it.

John says so:

And He Himself is the propitiation for our sins, and not for ours only but also for the whole world. (1 Jn. 2:2 NKJ)

Not the elect only, but the whole world.

The opportunity to be saved is universal, everyone can "if they believe". That includes the "non-elect."

Where Calvin (and Arminius) err, is they don't realize fully God's election occurred before the foundation of the world. His selection had NOTHING to do with how we act in the fallen realm. It was based on what happened in the Omniscient Mind of God BEFORE He created.

In His mind, God created angels and men. As they "awoke" will full knowledge of who God is, and saw Him gazing down upon them in pure holy love, there were three reactions.

Some immediately responded to God's love with love.

Some looked at God and wondered, "what's next" not having a clue.

The rest were terrified, because they were evil.

God elected the first group so none of them would be lost in the fallen realm.

But He didn't stop the other two from having a chance to do right, and be saved with the elect.

God simply could not bear losing the first group to this evil world, to let satan have the victory over one of these, so He predestines the Elect to salvation. They will be restored to what they were in God's omniscience, lovers of God, His truth, His holiness.

 

[brightfame52]

God gave His only begotten Son for the whole world, not just a small part of it.

John says so:

And He Himself is the propitiation for our sins, and not for ours only but also for the whole world. (1 Jn. 2:2 NKJ)

Not the elect only, but the whole world.

The opportunity to be saved is universal, everyone can "if they believe". That includes the "non-elect."

Where Calvin (and Arminius) err, is they don't realize fully God's election occurred before the foundation of the world. His selection had NOTHING to do with how we act in the fallen realm. It was based on what happened in the Omniscient Mind of God BEFORE He created.

In His mind, God created angels and men. As they "awoke" will full knowledge of who God is, and saw Him gazing down upon them in pure holy love, there were three reactions.

Some immediately responded to God's love with love.

Some looked at God and wondered, "what's next" not having a clue.

The rest were terrified, because they were evil.

God elected the first group so none of them would be lost in the fallen realm.

But He didn't stop the other two from having a chance to do right, and be saved with the elect.

God simply could not bear losing the first group to this evil world, to let satan have the victory over one of these, so He predestines the Elect to salvation. They will be restored to what they were in God's omniscience, lovers of God, His truth, His holiness.

You started out in error ! Christs Death was limited to the Elect !

 

[Bruce.Leiter]

I have read a study on this top Millard J. Erickson.

Is There Opportunity for Salvation after Death? Millard J. Erickson

It is a shame I cannot post the whole article due to the size. It is very informative in this subject.

Here is part of this article.

Source at the bottom of post.

The View That Christ Actually Offered Salvation to Some Dead Persons​

Several passages, especially 1 Peter 3:18–20 and 4:6 , that refer to Jesus’ descent and preaching, play a crucial role in support of postmortem evangelism. Salvation after death is related to the belief that Jesus, between His death and resurrection, descended into Hades and there proclaimed the gospel to individuals enslaved there from Old Testament times. This is supported by the statement in the Apostles’ Creed, “He descended into hades,” which in turn is supposedly suggested in Acts 2:31; Ephesians 4:9–10; 1 Peter 3:18–20; and 4:6 . Two steps are required if one is to believe on biblical grounds that such an opportunity is given after death to all persons who have not believed during this life. First, it is necessary to demonstrate that 1 Peter 3:18–20 does indeed teach that Christ preached the gospel to individuals in hades between the first Good Friday and Easter, and that this was a genuine offer of salvation on the basis of belief. Second, one must demonstrate that the offer made to those Old Testament persons is also available to all persons who live and die after that time.

It is worth noting that the presence of the clause in the Apostles’ Creed, which undoubtedly was a major factor in inducing belief in the doctrine during the medieval period, did not occur until relatively late. It is not found universally in the creed until the eighth century, though it was found in some versions as early as patristic times. It is included in the Athanasian Creed, composed about the middle of the fifth century and accepted by both the Eastern and Western wings of the church.14

The tradition of a descent of Christ into hades goes back to early church history. Interestingly, however, it was not associated with 1 Peter 3:18–20 for some time. Selwyn says that “the outstanding fact in the Patristic evidence before A.D. 190 is that, despite the popularity of the doctrine of Christ’s ‘harrowing of hell,’ 1 Pet iii.18ff is never quoted as authority for it.”15 Loofs says Irenaeus “never quotes the passage at all, nor, in dealing specially with the Descensus, does he even allude to it,”16 though Irenaeus regarded 1 Peter as an authentic epistle. Clement of Alexandria, Origen, and Hippolytus, however, did mention the descent in relation to 1 Peter 3. According to Augustine Christ’s preaching was in His preexistent form to the people of Noah’s day. Three of the major interpretations of the passage (i.e., Christ preaching in Hades to men, or to angels, or to those living in the days of Noah) were held by some of the church fathers.

Questions on 1 Peter 3:18-20

Several issues are involved in the interpretation of this passage. Those questions and the major answers given to them are as follows:

1. Who did the preaching?

a. Jesus (most interpreters hold this view)​

b. Enoch17​

c. Noah, but Christ was actually preaching through him by the Holy Spirit18​

2. To whom was the preaching given?

a. Fallen angels19​

b. Humans, in hell20​

c. Humans, who repented just before they died in the Flood21​

d. People who lived in the time of Moses22​

3. What was preached?

a. The gospel, that is, the good news of the availability of salvation​

b. Christ’s triumph over death​

c. Judgment or condemnation23​

4. When was the preaching done?

a. In the days of Noah24​

b. Between Jesus’ death and resurrection​

c. After Jesus’ resurrection but before His ascension25​

d. At the time of an “invisible ascension” of Christ on Easter Sunday morning, just after His appearance to Mary26​

e. Throughout history, being symbolic of the universality of salvation, rather than a single literal occurrence27​

Dallas Theological Seminary. (1995; 2002). Bibliotheca Sacra Volume 152 (152:131-145). Dallas Theological Seminary.

My seminary professor shared several interpretations of that passage. The problem is that it is one of the rare passages for which there are no other parallel ones to help us understand it. One truth is very clear about it that there is no mention of unbelievers becoming believers because of the sermons.

 

[Alfred Persson]

My seminary professor shared several interpretations of that passage. The problem is that it is one of the rare passages for which there are no other parallel ones to help us understand it. One truth is very clear about it that there is no mention of unbelievers becoming believers because of the sermons.

Its odd no one discusses Peter's words about baptism and "the answer of a good conscience towards God" in response to Christ's preaching. Why mention that if the spirits in prison didn't do it also, just like the church did?

 

[Bruce.Leiter]

So how does God judge those who never heard about Christ, to put their faith in Him? They have zero knowledge.

If "faith in Christ" is replaced by "obedience to the amount of knowledge revealed", then zero knowledge is bliss. The wicked who had zero knowledge of Christ, are saved!

People who never heard about Jesus' death and resurrection are still without excuse on Judgment Day. You should have read and taken to heart the Romans 1 passage:

Rom 1:18 For the wrath of God is revealed from heaven against all ungodliness and unrighteousness of men, who by their unrighteousness suppress the truth.
Rom 1:19 For what can be known about God is plain to them, because God has shown it to them.
Rom 1:20 For his invisible attributes, namely, his eternal power and divine nature, have been clearly perceived, ever since the creation of the world, in the things that have been made. So they are without excuse.
Rom 1:21 For although they knew God, they did not honor him as God or give thanks to him, but they became futile in their thinking, and their foolish hearts were darkened. (ESV)

However, I believe that there will be degrees of just punishment for unbelievers, depending on the light that they had, as per the parable of the talents, for example.

 

[Denise4]

As belief or non-belief in Christ are the only grounds for salvation or condemnation (Matthew 21:42; Mark 12:10; John 3:16-18; 5:24; 14:6; 20:31; Acts 4:11-12; Rom. 10:9; 1 Tim. 2:5-6; 1 Peter 2:6-8; 1 John 5:11-12), how does God judge those who never heard of Christ or heard disinformation about Him?

Only he knows this

 

[Randy]

People who never heard about Jesus' death and resurrection are still without excuse on Judgment Day. You should have read and taken to heart the Romans 1 passage:

Rom 1:18 For the wrath of God is revealed from heaven against all ungodliness and unrighteousness of men, who by their unrighteousness suppress the truth.
Rom 1:19 For what can be known about God is plain to them, because God has shown it to them.
Rom 1:20 For his invisible attributes, namely, his eternal power and divine nature, have been clearly perceived, ever since the creation of the world, in the things that have been made. So they are without excuse.
Rom 1:21 For although they knew God, they did not honor him as God or give thanks to him, but they became futile in their thinking, and their foolish hearts were darkened. (ESV)

However, I believe that there will be degrees of just punishment for unbelievers, depending on the light that they had, as per the parable of the talents, for example.

Its not about excuses it would be about Gods grace.

Jesus saw with His eyes that if He had performed the miracles in Sodom they would have remained to that day Clearly that was found in their favor and they would have a better judgment because of it.

And you, Capernaum, will you be lifted to the heavens? No, you will go down to Hades. For if the miracles that were performed in you had been performed in Sodom, it would have remained to this day. 24But I tell you that it will be more bearable for Sodom on the day of judgment than for you.”

If someone dies who has never heard of Jesus I would state they are neither in a saved condition nor in a condemned condition rather they would come before the one who judges and Jesus would make a judgment concerning them. I always add and "nothing is hidden from Him."

 

[Whatever]

Jesus saw with His eyes that if He had performed the miracles in Sodom they would have remained to that day Clearly that was found in their favor and they would have a better judgment because of it.

If God would have allowed the miracles to be performed in Sodom, He would have done it for a reason. He would have followed the miracles with the ability of Sodom to believe and repent.

You said "Jesus saw this with His eyes" as if He is able to see multiple universes with multiple scenario's going on in each one. I don't think that is true. Which universe did Jesus die and be resurrected in? How does that effect all the other ones?

 

[Randy]

If God would have allowed the miracles to be performed in Sodom, He would have done it for a reason. He would have followed the miracles with the ability of Sodom to believe and repent.

You said "Jesus saw this with His eyes" as if He is able to see multiple universes with multiple scenario's going on in each one. I don't think that is true. Which universe did Jesus die and be resurrected in? How does that effect all the other ones?

Jesus stated if He performed the miracles in Sodom they would have remained to that day. No man could know that which is why I stated Jesus saw with His eyes. As you read they would have a better judgment. Hence the one who judges, Christ Jesus, found that in their favor.

He also made statements such as,
If I had not come and spoken to them, they would not be guilty of sin; but now they have no excuse for their sin.

Its clear to me "with light comes accountability to all peoples of all nations"

“Here is my servant, whom I uphold, my chosen one in whom I delight; I will put my Spirit on him, and he will bring justice to the nations.

I'm not stating someone who has never heard of Jesus is considered innocent, I stated Jesus, the one who judges, would make a judgement concerning them. "His call", not ours to make.

The creation might testify to the existence of God but not who that God is nor His Son.

I have never met anyone who claimed they never heard of Jesus. But nothing is hidden from the Lord. He knows what we know.

The examples given of such a people who have never heard of Jesus are peoples who died long before Jesus descended from above and spoke the Fathers message to all starting with the Children of Israel. I don't think that applies to the here and now unless one dies very very young.

 

[Whatever]

Its clear to me "with light comes accountability to all peoples of all nations"

Yes I agree. But:
Luke 12:47 And that servant who knew his master's will, and did not prepare himself or do according to his will, shall be beaten with many stripes. 48 But he who did not know, yet committed things deserving of stripes, shall be beaten with few. For everyone to whom much is given, from him much will be required; and to whom much has been committed, of him they will ask the more.

All sin is deserving of stripes even if the person does no know. It doesn't seem that this ignorant person will be pardoned and let into heaven, but will simply not get as many stripes.

Leviticus 5:17 "If a person sins, and commits any of these things which are forbidden to be done by the commandments of the LORD, though he does not know it, yet he is guilty and shall bear his iniquity.
Leviticus 5:18 And he shall bring to the priest a ram without blemish from the flock, with your valuation, as a trespass offering. So the priest shall make atonement for him regarding his ignorance in which he erred and did not know it, and it shall be forgiven him.

Above the ignorant person is guilty, but can offer a trespass offering to be forgiven.
What trespass offering can a Australian Aborigine who has never heard the gospel offer?

 

[Randy]

Yes I agree. But:
Luke 12:47 And that servant who knew his master's will, and did not prepare himself or do according to his will, shall be beaten with many stripes. 48 But he who did not know, yet committed things deserving of stripes, shall be beaten with few. For everyone to whom much is given, from him much will be required; and to whom much has been committed, of him they will ask the more.

All sin is deserving of stripes even if the person does no know. It doesn't seem that this ignorant person will be pardoned and let into heaven, but will simply not get as many stripes.

Leviticus 5:17 "If a person sins, and commits any of these things which are forbidden to be done by the commandments of the LORD, though he does not know it, yet he is guilty and shall bear his iniquity.
Leviticus 5:18 And he shall bring to the priest a ram without blemish from the flock, with your valuation, as a trespass offering. So the priest shall make atonement for him regarding his ignorance in which he erred and did not know it, and it shall be forgiven him.

Above the ignorant person is guilty, but can offer a trespass offering to be forgiven.
What trespass offering can a Australian Aborigine who has never heard the gospel offer?

If there is a Australian Aborigine who has never heard of Jesus in this day, I highly doubt that, when they die their soul will come before the one who judges and Jesus will make a judgement concerning them. If His judgment is in their favor, He has the authority to forgive their sins at His judgment for God has placed all things in His hands.

Moreover, the Father judges no one, but has entrusted all judgment to the Son,...

 

[Whatever]

If there is a Australian Aborigine who has never heard of Jesus in this day, I highly doubt that, when they die their soul will come before the one who judges and Jesus will make a judgement concerning them.

I was thinking of those who lived there for thousands of years before Europeans showed up with the gospel.
Why wouldn't their soul come before the one who judges? This is the destiny of everybody.

Hebrews 9:27 And as it is appointed for men to die once, but after this the judgment

 

[Alfred Persson]

People who never heard about Jesus' death and resurrection are still without excuse on Judgment Day. You should have read and taken to heart the Romans 1 passage:

Rom 1:18 For the wrath of God is revealed from heaven against all ungodliness and unrighteousness of men, who by their unrighteousness suppress the truth.
Rom 1:19 For what can be known about God is plain to them, because God has shown it to them.
Rom 1:20 For his invisible attributes, namely, his eternal power and divine nature, have been clearly perceived, ever since the creation of the world, in the things that have been made. So they are without excuse.
Rom 1:21 For although they knew God, they did not honor him as God or give thanks to him, but they became futile in their thinking, and their foolish hearts were darkened. (ESV)

However, I believe that there will be degrees of just punishment for unbelievers, depending on the light that they had, as per the parable of the talents, for example.

My response to "FREE" was tongue in cheek, bouncing off his theory (which I agree with) that God predicates the severity of punishment on knowledge of His will. Even the OT passages cited (by me and others) shows those who sin in ignorance still must sacrifice for their sin.