How does God Judge those who never heard the gospel of Christ?

[Carry_Your_Name]

Jesus said people in His audience had passed from death to life:
"Most assuredly, I say to you, he who hears My word and believes in Him who sent Me has everlasting life, and shall not come into judgment, but has passed from death into life. (Jn. 5:24 NKJ)

Of course it applies to the future also, but passing from death into life began when people believed Christ's voice.

No, it only applied to future at the time. He didn't see his audience as zombies.

 

[Carry_Your_Name]

You still don't understand my point. Its elementary. Jesus said those who believe in Him NOW (while physically alive) "pass from death into life". According to Jesus, everyone NOW (while physically alive) are "dead":

According to YOU, not Jesus. What Jesus meant is that who believes in Him in this mortal life WILL pass from death - when they yield their last breath - to everlasting life in heaven. The dead doesn't have an ear to hear, only the living who still have a chance to repent and turn to Jesus.

For in death there is no remembrance of You;
In the grave who will give You thanks? (Ps. 6:5)

 

[Hopeful 2]

the people are so perfect they can follow an infallible concience, why would their thoughts accuse them?

According to the Rom 2:15, the conditions were accusing OR excusing.
Paul is presenting a hypothetical possibility.
He is not saying it had, or will happen.

Unintentional sin. They did not know their action was a violation of the order of the Biblical God, as opposed to an order of, say, a different one.

All sin is intentional.
Is it a murder if you hit a kid with your car when he jumps out from between parked cars ?
Is it a theft if you get home from work and find the back door keys from work in your pocket ?
James says the exact formula for what constitutes a sin in James 1:14-15.
"But every man is tempted, when he is drawn away of his own lust, and enticed.
15 Then when lust hath conceived, it bringeth forth sin: and sin, when it is finished, bringeth forth death."
Without temptation, lust, enticement, or conception; how can there be a sin ?

Conscience should not be our final ethical authority because it is, unlike God's revealed Word, changeable and fallible. Your "Put faith in the concience" doctrine and "Following the concience fully will result in sinlessness" belief are peak pride. If the concience does (and it does a lot) contradict God, it is in error. Unintentional sin! The Bible says that the heart is deceitful above all things. So how would we know for a fact our conscience would be correct? So if lying is acceptable to someone's conscience, does lying turn into a not-sin?? Do not "follow your heart".
Do not rely so heavily on the fallible, alterable conscience.

Remember, it was a hypothetical scenario that Paul offered.
It is neither Paul's, not my, doctrine.

Question...Were the women of the South-seas islands sinning by not wearing tops when the explorers discovered them?

 

[Alfred Persson]

How do you know this is referring to some 2nd chance thing and not, say, the Millennial Kingdom?

You are assuming it was preached to them when they were dead. It just says "the dead" but not when the Gospel was preached.

Ecclesiastes 9:5 . Clearly both cant be true at the same time. Either your belief is or Ecclesiastes is.

Obviously the dead knew stuff when they were alive. Therefore Ecc. 9:5 can only be referring to the dead while they are dead.
And thus, "preached/preaching to the dead" refers to when they were still alive.

The age to come begins with the Second Coming, and Christ's words show forgiveness for sins will occur during judgment. Hebrews 9:27-28 shows a judgment also occurs after death and its implied "many" have their sins covered by Christ and then eagerly wait for His Second Coming. Therefore, it follows the God who does not change was merciful during that judgment.

You cannot use Ecc. 9:5 against Christ (Luke 16) who revealed souls are conscious after physical death.

In context, Ecc. 9:5 speaks of them as physically alive, now that they are dead no one pays them for work, or even remembers them after a time. In that sense they "know nothing that happens among the living".

Christ was put to death in the flesh, His human soul "QUICKENED" by the Holy Spirit, and in the sphere of the Holy Spirit's power He went and preached to spirits in prison, while his human body was in the grave.

 

[Alfred Persson]

According to YOU, not Jesus. What Jesus meant is that who believes in Him in this mortal life WILL pass from death - when they yield their last breath - to everlasting life in heaven. The dead doesn't have an ear to hear, only the living who still have a chance to repent and turn to Jesus.

For in death there is no remembrance of You;
In the grave who will give You thanks? (Ps. 6:5)

You forget, God told Adam he would die the very day he ate from the tree. As "death" is separation from "life", their realizing they were sinful by their nakedness was the "outward physical evidence" they had "died spiritually."

All born in Adam are spiritually dead, from the point of conception onward.

Only belief in Christ makes one alive. There are no exceptions. Life is exlusively in Christ, He alone is the door to God. No other name exists that can save. Christ alone is the way, the truth and the life.

 

[Carry_Your_Name]

You forget, God told Adam he would die the very day he ate from the tree. As "death" is separation from "life", their realizing they were sinful by their nakedness was the "outward physical evidence" they had "died spiritually."

All born in Adam are spiritually dead, from the point of conception onward.

Only belief in Christ makes one alive. There are no exceptions. Life is exlusively in Christ, He alone is the door to God. No other name exists that can save. Christ alone is the way, the truth and the life.

That "day" was a day with the Lord, which means 1000 years. Adam later died at the ripe old age of 930, just 70 short of 1000.

 

[KV-44-v1]

70

70 . Interesting.
Bible paraphrase/quote 'Forgive seventy times seven', 7 is a common number in the Bible, can represent perfection.
Not 69 or 71 but 70!

 

[KV-44-v1]

Christ's words show forgiveness for sins will occur during judgment.

Nope, forgiveness is only for this life.

2 “Repent, for the kingdom of heaven is at hand.”
Matthew 3:2

Why such a big push for salvation in this life, when there is a ""Get Out Of Jail Free"" card??

@Alfred Persson Life is exlusively in Christ, He alone is the door to God.

Yes. He is, however, not the door to injustice.

So where do we go under this "2nd chance" paradigm? The grave? What could we possibly do in the grave? How would we know anything? HOW do we get this "2nd chance"?

Hebrews 9:27-28 shows a judgment also occurs after death

After the person dies, they are judged. Christ brings salvation to His Saints. No 2nd chance stuff there.

and its implied "many" have their sins covered by Christ and then eagerly wait for His Second Coming. Therefore, it follows the God who does not change was merciful during that judgment.

You cannot use Ecc. 9:5 against Christ (Luke 16) who revealed souls are conscious after physical death.

I wasn't trying to do so in the 1st place.

In context, Ecc. 9:5 speaks of them as physically alive,

What makes you think this?

now that they are dead no one pays them for work, or even remembers them after a time. In that sense they "know nothing that happens among the living".

Knowing nothing would by default, extend to those two limited things.
Not even the living know everyone who remembers them, so idk how that is relevant. We can't tell if someone remembers us unless they show it, yes?

 

[KV-44-v1]

You forget, God told Adam he would die the very day he ate from the tree. As "death" is separation from "life", their realizing they were sinful by their nakedness was the "outward physical evidence" they had "died spiritually."

All born in Adam are spiritually dead, from the point of conception onward.

Only belief in Christ makes one alive. There are no exceptions. Life is exlusively in Christ, He alone is the door to God. No other name exists that can save. Christ alone is the way, the truth and the life.

You didn't really show how the dead know nothing despite Psalm 6:5. The grave is mentioned so it is definitely physical death. After physical death you cant turn back, your destiny is sealed. End of story. unless, MABYE JUST MABYE, you are resurrected. Like Lazarus was.
but that was an EXCEPTION. NOT the rule. God is not unjust.


We don't know what happens to those who lived their life and died without hearing the Gospel, so don't assume your 2nd chance theory needs to be true.
Mabye God directly revealed the right way to them. Or mabye an unknown Christian preached to them. Faith in God is what we need. Not an unproven "2nd chance" theory that is a gamble.
What you should be teaching is "Repent before its too late". Not "Oh la dee da you have a get out of jail free card so you can repent anytime". Your teaching will do nothing at best, or at worst, damage the Church and many souls will be led to fire, oblivious to the dangerous error in the teaching!

Many will plan to "accept God later". They "won't reject Jesus always " but plan to accept Him later. So your teaching, if true, is easily taken advantage of. It'll result in more people needing to use their "2nd chance" to repent. Since such teaching is false, there won't be a 2nd chance TO use.

Your position has NO real power to deter sin. It actually ENCOURAGES it. Therefore, how can you say your teaching is Biblical????

 

[Alfred Persson]

That "day" was a day with the Lord, which means 1000 years. Adam later died at the ripe old age of 930, just 70 short of 1000.

A day was 24 hours. To God time means nothing, to Adam its day by day. I'm in a far better situation than you, I know Christ alone is the way to life. You dont. You have people saved by other names under the heaven.

All born in Adam are spiritually dead, from the point of conception onward.

Only belief in Christ makes one alive. There are no exceptions. Life is exlusively in Christ, He alone is the door to God. No other name exists that can save. Christ alone is the way, the truth and the life.

 

[Alfred Persson]

We don't know what happens to those who lived their life and died without hearing the Gospel

We certainly do, all who die unbelievers are lost forever:

14 And as Moses lifted up the serpent in the wilderness, even so must the Son of man be lifted up:
15 That whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have eternal life.
16 For God so loved the world, that he gave his only begotten Son, that whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have everlasting life.
17 For God sent not his Son into the world to condemn the world; but that the world through him might be saved.
18 He that believeth on him is not condemned: but he that believeth not is condemned already, because he hath not believed in the name of the only begotten Son of God. (Jn. 3:14-18 KJV)

If they continue in unbelief. All who repent upon hearing the gospel preached, and believe are saved. That is true in this life, and the afterlife:

For this reason the gospel was preached also to those who are dead, that they might be judged according to men in the flesh, but live according to God in the spirit. (1 Pet. 4:6 NKJ)

 

[Carry_Your_Name]

A day was 24 hours. To God time means nothing, to Adam its day by day. I'm in a far better situation than you, I know Christ alone is the way to life. You dont. You have people saved by other names under the heaven.

All born in Adam are spiritually dead, from the point of conception onward.

Only belief in Christ makes one alive. There are no exceptions. Life is exlusively in Christ, He alone is the door to God. No other name exists that can save. Christ alone is the way, the truth and the life.

God spoke from his perspective, not Adam's. A day with the Lord is like a thousand years, 2 Pt. 3:8. And I'm not arguing with you about the exclusivity of Christ, I'm refuting your theory that the unsaved dead can receive the gospel and be saved in Hades, and you falsely quoted Rev. 20:13 to justify it, while ignoring the context where in the next two verses the dead were all thrown into the Lake of Fire with Death and Hades.

 

[Alfred Persson]

God spoke from his perspective, not Adam's. A day with the Lord is like a thousand years, 2 Pt. 3:8. And I'm not arguing with you about the exclusivity of Christ, I'm refuting your theory that the unsaved dead can receive the gospel and be saved in Hades, and you falsely quoted Rev. 20:13 to justify it, while ignoring the context where in the next two verses the dead were all thrown into the Lake of Fire with Death and Hades.

When God speaks from infinite perspective man understands nothing. God made 24 days, Adam lived each day 24 hours at a time. God spoke so Adam would understand perfectly, in the "day" he ate, he would die.

And he did. The outward physical evidence Adam was separated from Life, was his knowing he was sinful, dead in his sins.

Revelation says only those "not written in the book of life were cast into the fire", not everyone.

 

[Alfred Persson]

You didn't really show how the dead know nothing despite Psalm 6:5.

Why does our Teacher the LORD Jesus Christ not believe you?

23 And in hell he lift up his eyes, being in torments, and seeth Abraham afar off, and Lazarus in his bosom.
24 And he cried and said, Father Abraham, have mercy on me, and send Lazarus, that he may dip the tip of his finger in water, and cool my tongue; for I am tormented in this flame. (Lk. 16:23-24 KJV)

 

[Carry_Your_Name]

When God speaks from infinite perspective man understands nothing. God made 24 days, Adam lived each day 24 hours at a time. God spoke so Adam would understand perfectly, in the "day" he ate, he would die.

But he didn’t die, as Satan told Eve. You’re calling God a liar and validating Satan’s lie. God speaks from his perspective, not man’s.

All born in Adam are spiritually dead, from the point of conception onward.

None of that is in Genesis, that’s just you “spiritualizing” the text.

 

[Alfred Persson]

But he didn’t die, as Satan told Eve. You’re calling God a liar and validating Satan’s lie. God speaks from his perspective, not man’s.

None of that is in Genesis, that’s just you “spiritualizing” the text.

It is you who say Adam didn't die within the "day" he ate. Scripture shows Adam did. Its not spiritualizing, all in Adam are dead until they believe Christ's voice, then they pass from death into life:


24 Verily, verily, I say unto you, He that heareth my word, and believeth on him that sent me, hath everlasting life, and shall not come into condemnation; but is passed from death unto life.
25 Verily, verily, I say unto you, The hour is coming, and now is, when the dead shall hear the voice of the Son of God: and they that hear shall live.
26 For as the Father hath life in himself; so hath he given to the Son to have life in himself; (Jn. 5:24-26 KJV)

You contradict Christ, according to you everyone is "alive" even before they "heareth my word".

That is the opposite of what Christ says. Your objection this is "spiritualizing death" is moot, by Christ's defintion all in Adam are "DEAD" until they obey Christ's voice.

None of that is in Genesis, that’s just you “spiritualizing” the text.-Carry Your Name

Your approach to scripture is flawed. Instead of learning how God defines death (not physical death, but separation because of sin from Him the font of life), you insist God predicted Adam would die 900+years later.

The text however, says "in the Day" you eat (can't be a thousand years, didn't take a thousand years to eat), you die.

But you won't believe the plain meaning of the text because of your other unscriptural beliefs about soul.

 

[Carry_Your_Name]

It is you who say Adam didn't die within the "day" he ate. Scripture shows Adam did. Its not spiritualizing, all in Adam are dead until they believe Christ's voice, then they pass from death into life:

Where in Gen. 3 says they died? Adam's eyes were opened and realized he was naked. He only died within a millennial day in Gen. 5:3-4. Anything beyond that is speculation.

Then the eyes of both of them were opened, and they knew that they were naked. (Gen. 3:7)

That is the opposite of what Christ says. Your objection this is "spiritualizing death" is moot, by Christ's defintion all in Adam are "DEAD" until they obey Christ's voice.

Christ died the same MORTAL death that Adam did, and Ge went down to the same Hades where all sinners find themselves in, was He in His own definition "dead"? Did He obey His own voice?

I am He who lives, and was dead, and behold, I am alive forevermore. Amen. And I have the keys of Hades and of Death. (Rev. 1:18)
For You will not leave my soul in Hades, nor will You allow Your Holy One to see corruption. (Acts 2:27)

In fact, "spiritual death" is an ambiguous theological term which can be twisted and molded into anything you want it to mean. According to you, all who've never heard and obey the gospel are "spiritually dead", but according to Jesus, "ye must be born again," "what's born of the spirit is of the spirit." These two can't both be true - how can one be spiritually dead when he's never been spiritually born? Yes, there's the second death in Rev. 20:15, but that's the sentence of the white throne judgement, if that's spiritual death, then that's the death of EVIL spirits, not the Holy Spirit. The Holy Spirit never dies.

The text however, says "in the Day" you eat (can't be a thousand years, didn't take a thousand years to eat), you die.

But you won't believe the plain meaning of the text because of your other unscriptural beliefs about soul.

The text plainly says Adam lived 130+800 years, not the 24 hour day he ate the fruit in Eden. It did take 930 years for Adam to die. The bible doesn't contradict itself, you do.

And Adam lived one hundred and thirty years, and begot a son in his own likeness, after his image, and named him Seth. After he begot Seth, the days of Adam were eight hundred years; and he had sons and daughters. (Gen. 5:3-4)

 

[Alfred Persson]

In fact, "spiritual death" is an ambiguous theological term which can be twisted and molded into anything you want it to mean.

Like many words "death" has multiple senses. There is physical death as you speak of, and spiritual death as Christ is speaking of, here. These people are not physically dead, they are spiritually dead until they believe the gospel of Christ:

24 "Most assuredly, I say to you, he who hears My word and believes in Him who sent Me has everlasting life, and shall not come into judgment, but has passed from death into life. (Jn. 5:24 NKJ)

 

[Carry_Your_Name]

Like many words "death" has multiple senses. There is physical death as you speak of, and spiritual death as Christ is speaking of, here. These people are not physically dead, they are spiritually dead until they believe the gospel of Christ:

24 "Most assuredly, I say to you, he who hears My word and believes in Him who sent Me has everlasting life, and shall not come into judgment, but has passed from death into life. (Jn. 5:24 NKJ)

Jesus was prophesying of future resurrection, he was not preaching to zombies, he only spoke of physical death. One can't be spiritually dead when they've never been spiritually alive.

 

[Alfred Persson]

Jesus was prophesying of future resurrection, he was not preaching to zombies, he only spoke of physical death. One can't be spiritually dead when they've never been spiritually alive.

Just as it didn't take Adam a 1,000-70 years to eat the apple, these are choosing to believe Jesus when He spoke, therefore they are passing from death to life THEN, while He is speaking:

24 "Most assuredly, I say to you, he who hears My word and believes in Him who sent Me has everlasting life, and shall not come into judgment, but has passed from death into life. (Jn. 5:24 NKJ)