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No. Mental disability, abortion...everyone dying without Christ goes to hades, which isn't like "hell" in protocatholic lore.Is a two or three year-old saved without knowing the gospel, without putting their faith in Christ? Why or why not?
I just did, in #42Alfred Persson Are you going to address my post #30? Should I expect a response or not?
You overlook Christ's statement the dead hear His voice in the grave and either rise to life or condemnation. In context, "Hear" is to hear believing in Christ:That seems to be the case.
That would seem to be the case.
First, it’s Sheol, not hell. Second, being brought back to life says absolutely nothing about salvation. After all, we see in Rev 20 that all will be resurrected to face judgement and most will be sent to hell as a result.
Possibly. Does Hades still exist post-resurrection?
No, it doesn’t imply anything. Besides, has anyone been raised from hell? Has anyone been in hell yet?
Christ rose from hell. The Rich Man is still there, suffering torment. If he repents, then he will rise in the resurrection to life. Until God raises the dead no one who enters hell can leave.No, it doesn’t imply anything. Besides, has anyone been raised from hell? Has anyone been in hell yet?
Am I able to change the method by which God judges them ? NO and you can not either .As belief or non-belief in Christ are the only grounds for salvation or condemnation (Matthew 21:42; Mark 12:10; John 3:16-18; 5:24; 14:6; 20:31; Acts 4:11-12; Rom. 10:9; 1 Tim. 2:5-6; 1 Peter 2:6-8; 1 John 5:11-12), how does God judge those who never heard of Christ or heard disinformation about Him?
It seems pretty straightforward. By nature, people are destined for God's wrath. The only thing that saves is putting one's faith in Christ before they die or before Christ returns. It is likely he will judge based on obedience to the amount of knowledge revealed. Regardless of what God does in the end, he will be perfectly just in what he does.
The OP is meant to generate discussion, inspection of scripture relevant to the issue. Not to suggest any compaint on my part.Am I able to change the method by which God judges them ? NO and you can not either .
I trust God to do what he does ! What choice do I have in this matter ?
Not long ago,a couple of years or so, a missionary traveled abroad. He went to a country wherein he had heard was the mainland situated not far from an island inhabited by stone age peoples.People born before Christ came. Many others. Recently they found a tribe of savages in the Amazon forest who never had any contact with modern society. If I recall correctly, a Christian went to preach the gospel to them.
That was in the rain forest of the Amazon. Hope he was tasty. He now sits with the Kings and priests of Christ, in glory. I envy him.Not long ago,a couple of years or so, a missionary traveled abroad. He went to a country wherein he had heard was the mainland situated not far from an island inhabited by stone age peoples.
The mainland people all knew to stay away from the island. The natives there would kill and eat trespassers.
Undeterred, the missionary ventured forth after convincing someone to give him a boat so he could bring Jesus to those people.
They killed and ate him.
So, regular human fetuses become super-human fetuses, capable of understanding language and understanding the gospel and its implications? Where is any of the above supported by Scripture? Where does Scripture ever state that a dead person will be told the gospel and given a chance?No. Mental disability, abortion...everyone dying without Christ goes to hades, which isn't like "hell" in protocatholic lore.
This is why it is appointed for men to die, and then Judgment. (Heb. 9:27-28)
An aborted fetus "wakes up" fully cognizant, fully aware, possessing total free will. During the "judgment" all is made known, the Gospel of Christ is preached (1 Pet. 4:6) and the now grown up adult makes the choice whether to obey God and live with Him, or not.
If the fetus (now adult) is wicked and cannot abide with God, then it waits in Hades for Judgment Day and rises with the rest of the human dead (Rev. 20:13-15) and as its name is not in the Book of life it is cast into the lake of fire. As punishment in the Lake of Fire is "according to his works" (Rev. 20:13) and he has none, he is immediately consumed by the fire and ceases to exist.
If the fetus makes the free will choice to obey God, the sacrifice of Christ is applied and he eagerly waits in Hades for the second coming of Christ, for salvation. He will rise with all the Christian dead during the "First Resurrection/Rap[ture" when Christ comes (Heb. 9:27-28; 1 Thess. 4:13-18; 5:1-4; 2 Thess. 2:1-4; 1 Cor. 5:5, 15:51-54; Rev. 14:12-16; 20:4-6).
Salvation only occurs in Jesus, nothing else. There is no "age of accountability, no exceptions for retardation etc.). Upon physical death the soul "wakes up" as an adult fully aware of their situation, who God is and what is at stake.
Salvation occurs exclusively in Christ. Everyone must confess Jesus Christ is LORD to be saved. Only belief in Christ is the grounds for salvation or condemnation. All who reject Christ, are rejected.
Where, exactly, does the text state that to hear is to "hear believing in Christ"?You overlook Christ's statement the dead hear His voice in the grave and either rise to life or condemnation. In context, "Hear" is to hear believing in Christ:
21 "For as the Father raises the dead and gives life to them, even so the Son gives life to whom He will.
22 "For the Father judges no one, but has committed all judgment to the Son,
23 "that all should honor the Son just as they honor the Father. He who does not honor the Son does not honor the Father who sent Him.
24 "Most assuredly, I say to you, he who hears My word and believes in Him who sent Me has everlasting life, and shall not come into judgment, but has passed from death into life.
25 "Most assuredly, I say to you, the hour is coming, and now is, when the dead will hear the voice of the Son of God; and those who hear will live.
26 "For as the Father has life in Himself, so He has granted the Son to have life in Himself,
27 "and has given Him authority to execute judgment also, because He is the Son of Man.
28 "Do not marvel at this; for the hour is coming in which all who are in the graves will hear His voice
29 "and come forth-- those who have done good, to the resurrection of life, and those who have done evil, to the resurrection of condemnation. (Jn. 5:21-29 NKJ)
All who hear believing in Christ rise to the resurrection of life, all who do not hear so as to believe in Christ rise to the resurrection of condemnation. They are rising from Hades which is here euphemistically called "the grave".
Where is this in Scripture? You have yet to provide a single verse of evidence.So they "hear" while in the grave/Hades, the Gospel of Christ (1 Pet. 4:6) and all who choose to obey Jesus as LORD will rise to life.
The names written in the book of life were written prior to the death of that person. The context makes that pretty clear.All who refuse Christ's offer of salvation, won't have their names written into the book of life
"A pedophile"? Really? How do you get that from the text?42 "But whoever causes one of these little ones who believe in Me to stumble, it would be better for him if a millstone were hung around his neck, and he were thrown into the sea.
43 "If your hand causes you to sin, cut it off. It is better for you to enter into life maimed, rather than having two hands, to go to hell, into the fire that shall never be quenched--
44 "where`Their worm does not die, And the fire is not quenched.'
45 "And if your foot causes you to sin, cut it off. It is better for you to enter life lame, rather than having two feet, to be cast into hell, into the fire that shall never be quenched--
46 "where`Their worm does not die, And the fire is not quenched.'
47 "And if your eye causes you to sin, pluck it out. It is better for you to enter the kingdom of God with one eye, rather than having two eyes, to be cast into hell fire--
48 "where`Their worm does not die, And the fire is not quenched.' (Mk. 9:42-48 NKJ)
Because Jesus was speaking about a pedophile who stumbled one of God's children (an eternal sin), in this instance the "worm does not die".
Then you seem to have overlooked a certain verse:Christ rose from hell. The Rich Man is still there, suffering torment. If he repents, then he will rise in the resurrection to life. Until God raises the dead no one who enters hell can leave.
Except that there is no verse, no passage, which teaches that a person can go from hell to the resurrection life. Besides, you keep conflating "hell" with "Hades." They are not the same. You should be more careful and precise in your language.So rising from hell to the resurrection of life does imply God forgave the sinner, and redeemed their soul from hell.
None of these states what you think it states. I have dealt with these and it is all proof-texting and reading your ideas into Scripture.The proof of these things was in these scripture references:
A Survey of Scriptures where Postmortem Opportunity for Salvation may be taught:
Dt. 32:39 [#A]; 1Sam. 2:6 [#B]; 2Sam. 22:5-7 [#C]; Ps. 16:10-11 [#D]; Ps. 30:1-4 [#E]; Ps. 40:1-3 [#F]; Ps. 49:12-15 [#G]; Ps. 56:13 [#H]; Ps. 68:18-20 [#I]; Ps. 69:13-18 [#J]; Ps. 71:19-23 [#K]; Ps. 86:13 [#L]; Ps. 102:18-22 [#M]; Ps. 116:1-9 [#N]; Hos. 13:14 [#O]; Jon. 2:1-10 [#P]; Zec. 9:9-11 [#Q]; Mt. 12:30-32[#R]; John 5:28-29[#S]; Rm. 11:25-36[#T]; 1 Pt. 3:18-22[#U]; 1 Pt. 4:6[#V]; 1 Cor. 5:5[#W]; Eph. 4:8-10[#I]; Heb. 9:27-28[#X]; Rev. 20:11-15[#Y];Luke 16:19-31[#Z]; John 3:16-18[#ZA]
Hell (Hades, Sheol) has sections. Abraham's bosom is in "Hades" (the unseen realm), so is "third heaven" in the "unseen realm". That's why people understand Hades/Sheol/Hell has levels, the lower the more tormenting. But if you visualize everything "beyond the veil" is in the "unseen realm" it makes more sense. In the OT "the pit" often denoted the place where the eternally lost go, "the lowest Sheol" (Dt. 32:22; Ps. 86:13) for the very wicked. Wicked angels are trapped in the "bottomless pit", the abyss. But in Rev. 9:1ff they will be released to plague the earth once more in the end time.
So you believe deceased babies remain babies for all eternity? I can't respond to such tabloid beliefs.So, regular human fetuses become super-human fetuses, capable of understanding language and understanding the gospel and its implications? Where is any of the above supported by Scripture? Where does Scripture ever state that a dead person will be told the gospel and given a chance?
Understanding scripture requires inference and deduction. Stumbling a child so they hate God is precisely what has happened to many Catholic children abused by pedophile priests. I did not say its the only way to stumble a child, but it certain is one of them.Where, exactly, does the text state that to hear is to "hear believing in Christ"?
Where is this in Scripture? You have yet to provide a single verse of evidence.
The names written in the book of life were written prior to the death of that person. The context makes that pretty clear.
Rev 20:11 Then I saw a great white throne and him who was seated on it. From his presence earth and sky fled away, and no place was found for them.
Rev 20:12 And I saw the dead, great and small, standing before the throne, and books were opened. Then another book was opened, which is the book of life. And the dead were judged by what was written in the books, according to what they had done.
Rev 20:13 And the sea gave up the dead who were in it, Death and Hades gave up the dead who were in them, and they were judged, each one of them, according to what they had done.
Rev 20:14 Then Death and Hades were thrown into the lake of fire. This is the second death, the lake of fire.
Rev 20:15 And if anyone's name was not found written in the book of life, he was thrown into the lake of fire. (ESV)
See also what Jesus says:
Rev 3:5 The one who conquers will be clothed thus in white garments, and I will never blot his name out of the book of life. I will confess his name before my Father and before his angels. (ESV)
It makes no sense to blot out a name that isn't already written.
And Paul:
Php 4:3 Yes, I ask you also, true companion, help these women, who have labored side by side with me in the gospel together with Clement and the rest of my fellow workers, whose names are in the book of life. (ESV)
Names are already in the book of life. At the resurrection, if a person's name isn't in there, that's it; it is too late to have it written in. That can only happen prior to death.
"A pedophile"? Really? How do you get that from the text?
It seems that your entire position is all eisegesis, all proof-texting.
Prove you dealt with each text. Start a thread devoted to exposing my eisegesis, scripture by scripture. Of course you will fail, but it will be entertaining to watch you try.Then you seem to have overlooked a certain verse:
Luk 16:26 And besides all this, between us and you a great chasm has been fixed, in order that those who would pass from here to you may not be able, and none may cross from there to us.’ (ESV)
This supports Hebrews 9:27:
Heb 9:27 And just as it is appointed for man to die once, and after that comes judgment, (ESV)
You have one chance, in life, to repent and turn to Christ. There will not be another.
Except that there is no verse, no passage, which teaches that a person can go from hell to the resurrection life. Besides, you keep conflating "hell" with "Hades." They are not the same. You should be more careful and precise in your language.
None of these states what you think it states. I have dealt with these and it is all proof-texting and reading your ideas into Scripture.
This is your chance to correct the arch heretic Alfred Persson (author apologist aka "LetsObeyChrist") who NOW rejects protocatholic Soteriology and Eschatology which limits the opportunity for salvation in Christ.None of these states what you think it states. I have dealt with these and it is all proof-texting and reading your ideas into Scripture.
OKThat was in the rain forest of the Amazon. Hope he was tasty. He now sits with the Kings and priests of Christ, in glory. I envy him.
Perish with or without the law (Rom. 2:12), God will judge according to their own conscience (Rom. 2:15) and their deeds (Rom. 2:6). The only condemnation that would send one to hell with absolute certainty is the mark of the beast, before that there’s always a possibility for salvation.As belief or non-belief in Christ are the only grounds for salvation or condemnation (Matthew 21:42; Mark 12:10; John 3:16-18; 5:24; 14:6; 20:31; Acts 4:11-12; Rom. 10:9; 1 Tim. 2:5-6; 1 Peter 2:6-8; 1 John 5:11-12), how does God judge those who never heard of Christ or heard disinformation about Him?
When God judges according to conscience, they remain condemned because our conscience will not excuse everything.Perish with or without the law (Rom. 2:12), God will judge according to their own conscience (Rom. 2:15) and their deeds (Rom. 2:6). The only condemnation that would send one to hell with absolute certainty is the mark of the beast, before that there’s always a possibility for salvation.