Alfred Persson Are you going to address my post #30? Should I expect a response or not?
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Desire to be a vessel of honor unto the Lord Jesus Christ?
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Depending upon the Holy Spirit for all you do?
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How are famous preachers sometimes effected by sin?
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How does God Judge those who never heard the gospel of Christ?
- Thread starter Alfred Persson
- Start date
No. Mental disability, abortion...everyone dying without Christ goes to hades, which isn't like "hell" in protocatholic lore.
This is why it is appointed for men to die, and then Judgment. (Heb. 9:27-28)
An aborted fetus "wakes up" fully cognizant, fully aware, possessing total free will. During the "judgment" all is made known, the Gospel of Christ is preached (1 Pet. 4:6) and the now grown up adult makes the choice whether to obey God and live with Him, or not.
If the fetus (now adult) is wicked and cannot abide with God, then it waits in Hades for Judgment Day and rises with the rest of the human dead (Rev. 20:13-15) and as its name is not in the Book of life it is cast into the lake of fire. As punishment in the Lake of Fire is "according to his works" (Rev. 20:13) and he has none, he is immediately consumed by the fire and ceases to exist.
If the fetus makes the free will choice to obey God, the sacrifice of Christ is applied and he eagerly waits in Hades for the second coming of Christ, for salvation. He will rise with all the Christian dead during the "First Resurrection/Rap[ture" when Christ comes (Heb. 9:27-28; 1 Thess. 4:13-18; 5:1-4; 2 Thess. 2:1-4; 1 Cor. 5:5, 15:51-54; Rev. 14:12-16; 20:4-6).
Salvation only occurs in Jesus, nothing else. There is no "age of accountability, no exceptions for retardation etc.). Upon physical death the soul "wakes up" as an adult fully aware of their situation, who God is and what is at stake.
Salvation occurs exclusively in Christ. Everyone must confess Jesus Christ is LORD to be saved. Only belief in Christ is the grounds for salvation or condemnation. All who reject Christ, are rejected.
There are tormenting regions of Hades (Lk. 16:22-24), but a fetus who died and rejects Christ wouldn't find hades pleasant, but they would be in a state of near sleep (John 11:13; 1 Cor. 15:51; 1 Th. 4:14) so time would pass so quickly a thousand years would seem like a day (2 Pet. 3:8).
I just did, in #42
You overlook Christ's statement the dead hear His voice in the grave and either rise to life or condemnation. In context, "Hear" is to hear believing in Christ:
21 "For as the Father raises the dead and gives life to them, even so the Son gives life to whom He will.
22 "For the Father judges no one, but has committed all judgment to the Son,
23 "that all should honor the Son just as they honor the Father. He who does not honor the Son does not honor the Father who sent Him.
24 "Most assuredly, I say to you, he who hears My word and believes in Him who sent Me has everlasting life, and shall not come into judgment, but has passed from death into life.
25 "Most assuredly, I say to you, the hour is coming, and now is, when the dead will hear the voice of the Son of God; and those who hear will live.
26 "For as the Father has life in Himself, so He has granted the Son to have life in Himself,
27 "and has given Him authority to execute judgment also, because He is the Son of Man.
28 "Do not marvel at this; for the hour is coming in which all who are in the graves will hear His voice
29 "and come forth-- those who have done good, to the resurrection of life, and those who have done evil, to the resurrection of condemnation. (Jn. 5:21-29 NKJ)
All who hear believing in Christ rise to the resurrection of life, all who do not hear so as to believe in Christ rise to the resurrection of condemnation. They are rising from Hades which is here euphemistically called "the grave".
So they "hear" while in the grave/Hades, the Gospel of Christ (1 Pet. 4:6) and all who choose to obey Jesus as LORD will rise to life. All who refuse Christ's offer of salvation, won't have their names written into the book of life and will rise to the resurrection of condemnation and cast into the Lake of Fire. How long they will be tormented in the lake of fire is "according to their works". All guilty of eternal sin (Satan, Fallen angels, Beast, False Prophet, Worshipers of the Beast, Pedophiles, etc. This is not a complete list)----suffer eternally.
Both Death and Hades cease to exist when they are cast into the Lake of Fire, the unquenchble fire that consumes. The symbolism of the lake of fire does double duty, it represents the complete destruction of any possibility for a return (2 Th. 1:9), the "second death" from which there is no resurrection:
Then Death and Hades were cast into the lake of fire. This is the second death. (Rev. 20:14 NKJ):
The wicked "exist" burning in horrid resurrection bodies, their souls trapped in those hideous resurrection bodies for as long as their works merit. As noted before, eternal sin results in eternal suffering in a body whose worms do not die out, whose only purpose is to communicate the wrath of God to the soul imprisoned within:
42 "But whoever causes one of these little ones who believe in Me to stumble, it would be better for him if a millstone were hung around his neck, and he were thrown into the sea.
43 "If your hand causes you to sin, cut it off. It is better for you to enter into life maimed, rather than having two hands, to go to hell, into the fire that shall never be quenched--
44 "where`Their worm does not die, And the fire is not quenched.'
45 "And if your foot causes you to sin, cut it off. It is better for you to enter life lame, rather than having two feet, to be cast into hell, into the fire that shall never be quenched--
46 "where`Their worm does not die, And the fire is not quenched.'
47 "And if your eye causes you to sin, pluck it out. It is better for you to enter the kingdom of God with one eye, rather than having two eyes, to be cast into hell fire--
48 "where`Their worm does not die, And the fire is not quenched.' (Mk. 9:42-48 NKJ)
Because Jesus was speaking about a pedophile who stumbled one of God's children (an eternal sin), in this instance the "worm does not die".
Gehenna (Lake of Fire) is a place of physical torment (Mt. 10:28). Once someone has "paid the penalty for their sin" (Mt.. 5:26; Lk. 12:59) the abominable resurrection body becomes "ashes" and the soul trapped within ceases to exist:
You shall trample the wicked, For they shall be ashes under the soles of your feet On the day that I do this," Says the LORD of hosts. (Mal. 4:3 NKJ)
Like sheep they are laid in the grave; Death shall feed on them; The upright shall have dominion over them in the morning; And their beauty shall be consumed in the grave, far from their dwelling. (Ps. 49:14 NKJ)
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Christ rose from hell. The Rich Man is still there, suffering torment. If he repents, then he will rise in the resurrection to life. Until God raises the dead no one who enters hell can leave.
So rising from hell to the resurrection of life does imply God forgave the sinner, and redeemed their soul from hell. The proof of these things was in these scripture references:
A Survey of Scriptures where Postmortem Opportunity for Salvation may be taught:
Dt. 32:39 [#A]; 1Sam. 2:6 [#B]; 2Sam. 22:5-7 [#C]; Ps. 16:10-11 [#D]; Ps. 30:1-4 [#E]; Ps. 40:1-3 [#F]; Ps. 49:12-15 [#G]; Ps. 56:13 [#H]; Ps. 68:18-20 [#I]; Ps. 69:13-18 [#J]; Ps. 71:19-23 [#K]; Ps. 86:13 [#L]; Ps. 102:18-22 [#M]; Ps. 116:1-9 [#N]; Hos. 13:14 [#O]; Jon. 2:1-10 [#P]; Zec. 9:9-11 [#Q]; Mt. 12:30-32[#R]; John 5:28-29[#S]; Rm. 11:25-36[#T]; 1 Pt. 3:18-22[#U]; 1 Pt. 4:6[#V]; 1 Cor. 5:5[#W]; Eph. 4:8-10[#I]; Heb. 9:27-28[#X]; Rev. 20:11-15[#Y];Luke 16:19-31[#Z]; John 3:16-18[#ZA]
Hell (Hades, Sheol) has sections. Abraham's bosom is in "Hades" (the unseen realm), so is "third heaven" in the "unseen realm". That's why people understand Hades/Sheol/Hell has levels, the lower the more tormenting. But if you visualize everything "beyond the veil" is in the "unseen realm" it makes more sense. In the OT "the pit" often denoted the place where the eternally lost go, "the lowest Sheol" (Dt. 32:22; Ps. 86:13) for the very wicked. Wicked angels are trapped in the "bottomless pit", the abyss. But in Rev. 9:1ff they will be released to plague the earth once more in the end time.
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Am I able to change the method by which God judges them ? NO and you can not either .
I trust God to do what he does ! What choice do I have in this matter ?
The OP is meant to generate discussion, inspection of scripture relevant to the issue. Not to suggest any compaint on my part.Am I able to change the method by which God judges them ? NO and you can not either .
I trust God to do what he does ! What choice do I have in this matter ?
I recall claiming "God is Just" without being able to prove it, because I once believed as you. All believers are indoctrinated into the "classic" Catholic eschatology that was slightly modified by Protestants.
I now reject that Catholic/Protestant tradition for the view I see in the NT. Its a Jewish-Christian view and it shows God's Justice. No one righteous is lost, only the wicked are punished. = God is Just.
So the difference when I believed like you, and now is....I can prove God is Just, via the Scripture.
Little Owl
Member
Not long ago,a couple of years or so, a missionary traveled abroad. He went to a country wherein he had heard was the mainland situated not far from an island inhabited by stone age peoples.
The mainland people all knew to stay away from the island. The natives there would kill and eat trespassers.
Undeterred, the missionary ventured forth after convincing someone to give him a boat so he could bring Jesus to those people.
They killed and ate him.
That was in the rain forest of the Amazon. Hope he was tasty. He now sits with the Kings and priests of Christ, in glory. I envy him.
Why believers ignore the writer of Hebrews, his explanation how Christ's sacrifice provided eternal redemption, for all who ever lived since the foundation of the world, by appering ONCE at the end of the ages....is unknown to me.
Unlike the limited sacrifices under the Law of Moses which redeemed the priest and people only for a limited time, they had to be repeated often….the blood of God the Son having infinite value can redeem for all eternity, everyone born since the foundation of the world. He obtained "eternal redemption" through His own blood.
8 The Holy Spirit is indicating this, that the way into the Holy Place was not yet revealed while the first tabernacle was still standing;
9 which is a symbol of the present age, where gifts and sacrifices are offered that are incapable, concerning the conscience, of making the worshipper perfect;
10 being only (with meats and drinks and various washings) fleshly ordinances, imposed until a time of reformation.
11 But Christ having come as a high priest of the good things to come, through the greater and more perfect tabernacle, not made with hands, that is to say, not of this creation,
12 nor yet through the blood of goats and calves, but through his own blood, entered in once for all into the Holy Place, having obtained eternal redemption. (Heb. 9:8-12 RPTE)
If Christ's sacrifice were temporal He would have to offer them often since the foundation of the world to cover the OT saints etc., but it’s a heavenly sacrifice not limited by space-time. He appeared ONCE to put away all sin since the beginning of time.
22 According to the Law, nearly everything is cleansed with blood, and apart from shedding of blood there is no remission.
23 It was necessary therefore that the copies of the things in the heavens should be cleansed with these; but the heavenly things themselves with better sacrifices than these.
24 For Christ hasn't entered into holy places made with hands, which are representations of the true, but into heaven itself, now to appear in the presence of God for us;
25 nor yet that he should offer himself often, as the high priest enters into the holy place year by year with blood not his own,
26 or else he must have suffered often since the foundation of the world. But now once at the end of the ages, he has been revealed to put away sin by the sacrifice of himself.
27 Inasmuch as it is appointed for men to die once, and after this, judgment,
28 so Christ also, having been offered once to bear the sins of many, will appear a second time, without sin, to those who are eagerly waiting for him for salvation. (Heb. 9:22-28 RPTE)
This is why the gospel is preached to the dead (1 Pet. 4:6), inasmuch all must hear the gospel after they die so they can be Judged. Those who receive Christ then eagerly wait for His second coming for salvation, the resurrection to life:
Unlike the limited sacrifices under the Law of Moses which redeemed the priest and people only for a limited time, they had to be repeated often….the blood of God the Son having infinite value can redeem for all eternity, everyone born since the foundation of the world. He obtained "eternal redemption" through His own blood.
8 The Holy Spirit is indicating this, that the way into the Holy Place was not yet revealed while the first tabernacle was still standing;
9 which is a symbol of the present age, where gifts and sacrifices are offered that are incapable, concerning the conscience, of making the worshipper perfect;
10 being only (with meats and drinks and various washings) fleshly ordinances, imposed until a time of reformation.
11 But Christ having come as a high priest of the good things to come, through the greater and more perfect tabernacle, not made with hands, that is to say, not of this creation,
12 nor yet through the blood of goats and calves, but through his own blood, entered in once for all into the Holy Place, having obtained eternal redemption. (Heb. 9:8-12 RPTE)
If Christ's sacrifice were temporal He would have to offer them often since the foundation of the world to cover the OT saints etc., but it’s a heavenly sacrifice not limited by space-time. He appeared ONCE to put away all sin since the beginning of time.
22 According to the Law, nearly everything is cleansed with blood, and apart from shedding of blood there is no remission.
23 It was necessary therefore that the copies of the things in the heavens should be cleansed with these; but the heavenly things themselves with better sacrifices than these.
24 For Christ hasn't entered into holy places made with hands, which are representations of the true, but into heaven itself, now to appear in the presence of God for us;
25 nor yet that he should offer himself often, as the high priest enters into the holy place year by year with blood not his own,
26 or else he must have suffered often since the foundation of the world. But now once at the end of the ages, he has been revealed to put away sin by the sacrifice of himself.
27 Inasmuch as it is appointed for men to die once, and after this, judgment,
28 so Christ also, having been offered once to bear the sins of many, will appear a second time, without sin, to those who are eagerly waiting for him for salvation. (Heb. 9:22-28 RPTE)
This is why the gospel is preached to the dead (1 Pet. 4:6), inasmuch all must hear the gospel after they die so they can be Judged. Those who receive Christ then eagerly wait for His second coming for salvation, the resurrection to life:
So, regular human fetuses become super-human fetuses, capable of understanding language and understanding the gospel and its implications? Where is any of the above supported by Scripture? Where does Scripture ever state that a dead person will be told the gospel and given a chance?
Where, exactly, does the text state that to hear is to "hear believing in Christ"?
Where is this in Scripture? You have yet to provide a single verse of evidence.
The names written in the book of life were written prior to the death of that person. The context makes that pretty clear.
Rev 20:11 Then I saw a great white throne and him who was seated on it. From his presence earth and sky fled away, and no place was found for them.
Rev 20:12 And I saw the dead, great and small, standing before the throne, and books were opened. Then another book was opened, which is the book of life. And the dead were judged by what was written in the books, according to what they had done.
Rev 20:13 And the sea gave up the dead who were in it, Death and Hades gave up the dead who were in them, and they were judged, each one of them, according to what they had done.
Rev 20:14 Then Death and Hades were thrown into the lake of fire. This is the second death, the lake of fire.
Rev 20:15 And if anyone's name was not found written in the book of life, he was thrown into the lake of fire. (ESV)
See also what Jesus says:
Rev 3:5 The one who conquers will be clothed thus in white garments, and I will never blot his name out of the book of life. I will confess his name before my Father and before his angels. (ESV)
It makes no sense to blot out a name that isn't already written.
And Paul:
Php 4:3 Yes, I ask you also, true companion, help these women, who have labored side by side with me in the gospel together with Clement and the rest of my fellow workers, whose names are in the book of life. (ESV)
Names are already in the book of life. At the resurrection, if a person's name isn't in there, that's it; it is too late to have it written in. That can only happen prior to death.
"A pedophile"? Really? How do you get that from the text?
It seems that your entire position is all eisegesis, all proof-texting.
Then you seem to have overlooked a certain verse:
Luk 16:26 And besides all this, between us and you a great chasm has been fixed, in order that those who would pass from here to you may not be able, and none may cross from there to us.’ (ESV)
This supports Hebrews 9:27:
Heb 9:27 And just as it is appointed for man to die once, and after that comes judgment, (ESV)
You have one chance, in life, to repent and turn to Christ. There will not be another.
Except that there is no verse, no passage, which teaches that a person can go from hell to the resurrection life. Besides, you keep conflating "hell" with "Hades." They are not the same. You should be more careful and precise in your language.
None of these states what you think it states. I have dealt with these and it is all proof-texting and reading your ideas into Scripture.
So you believe deceased babies remain babies for all eternity? I can't respond to such tabloid beliefs.
Understanding scripture requires inference and deduction. Stumbling a child so they hate God is precisely what has happened to many Catholic children abused by pedophile priests. I did not say its the only way to stumble a child, but it certain is one of them.
Understanding scripture requires attention to phrases and words, to learn their shades of meaning:
He "who hears...and believes...has everlasting life...the dead...who hear will live"
24 "Most assuredly, I say to you, he who hears My word and believes in Him who sent Me has everlasting life, and shall not come into judgment, but has passed from death into life.
25 "Most assuredly, I say to you, the hour is coming, and now is, when the dead will hear the voice of the Son of God; and those who hear will live. (Jn. 5:24-25 NKJ)
Understanding Scripture requies one is has studied the symbolism as it is used throughout scripture. What makes sense to you is irrelevant, scripture reveals names are written in and blotted out of the "book of life":
Let them be blotted out of the book of the living, And not be written with the righteous. (Ps. 69:28 NKJ)
"He who overcomes shall be clothed in white garments, and I will not blot out his name from the Book of Life; but I will confess his name before My Father and before His angels. (Rev. 3:5 NKJ)
Names of the elect chosen before the foundation of the world are in the book of life, but there exists billions of "undetermined people" who can also be saved exclusively by Christ, if they repent when they die and accept the gospel preached to them. These names can be written into the book of life on Judgment Day, that's why its opened.
And I saw the dead, small and great, standing before God, and books were opened. And another book was opened, which is the Book of Life. And the dead were judged according to their works, by the things which were written in the books. (Rev. 20:12 NKJ)
All who "done good" after hearing Christ's voice in the grave come out to the resurrection of life:
28 "Do not marvel at this; for the hour is coming in which all who are in the graves will hear His voice
29 "and come forth-- those who have done good, to the resurrection of life, and those who have done evil, to the resurrection of condemnation. (Jn. 5:28-29 NKJ)
Christians shouldn't "marvel at this", its a promise made by our LORD Jesus Christ.
Prove you dealt with each text. Start a thread devoted to exposing my eisegesis, scripture by scripture. Of course you will fail, but it will be entertaining to watch you try.
Again ignorance of scripture is manifest. The "great chasm" is fixed ONLY until the Great White Throne judgment, when ALL the dead rise from Hades:
The sea gave up the dead who were in it, and Death and Hades delivered up the dead who were in them. And they were judged, each one according to his works. (Rev. 20:13 NKJ)
To interpret scripture its required one think logically, inference and deduction are required.
I have improved my apologetic on Heb. 9:27, you should check it out:
It is appointed unto men once to die, but after this the judgment (Heb. 9:27 KJV) | End Time News
Universal Opportunity for Salvation in Christ: A Theological Examination of Salvation Beyond Temporal and Geographical Boundaries Abstract This paper explores the theological question of salvation for those who, due to the limitations of time and place, have not had direct access to the message...
endtimenews.net
16 All Scripture is given by inspiration of God, and is profitable for doctrine, for reproof, for correction, for instruction in righteousness,
17 that the man of God may be complete, thoroughly equipped for every good work. (2 Tim. 3:16-4:1 NKJ)
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This is your chance to correct the arch heretic Alfred Persson (author apologist aka "LetsObeyChrist") who NOW rejects protocatholic Soteriology and Eschatology which limits the opportunity for salvation in Christ.
I reject (gasp!) God will send the lost eternally to hell if they died unbelievers, without giving them a second chance!
Who doesn't believe in limited atonement and reprobation.
Who rejects the notion God hardens hearts so they don't have free will.
Like the Dutch Tulip Market Bubble, TULIP goes bust when scriptures are inspected.
Most Christian authors won't respond to you. Here I am, go for it. Give it your best shot.
Start a thread devoted to those scriptures you claim to have refuted, lets see what you got.
Here they are again. My commentary appears when you click the hashtag #Letter next to the verse:
Dt. 32:39 [#A]; 1Sam. 2:6 [#B]; 2Sam. 22:5-7 [#C]; Ps. 16:10-11 [#D]; Ps. 30:1-4 [#E]; Ps. 40:1-3 [#F]; Ps. 49:12-15 [#G]; Ps. 56:13 [#H]; Ps. 68:18-20 [#I]; Ps. 69:13-18 [#J]; Ps. 71:19-23 [#K]; Ps. 86:13 [#L]; Ps. 102:18-22 [#M]; Ps. 116:1-9 [#N]; Hos. 13:14 [#O]; Jon. 2:1-10 [#P]; Zec. 9:9-11 [#Q]; Mt. 12:30-32[#R]; John 5:28-29[#S]; Rm. 11:25-36[#T]; 1 Pt. 3:18-22[#U]; 1 Pt. 4:6[#V]; 1 Cor. 5:5[#W]; Eph. 4:8-10[#I]; Heb. 9:27-28[#X]; Rev. 20:11-15[#Y];Luke 16:19-31[#Z]; John 3:16-18[#ZA]
Prove my "commentary" on the text wrong. Stop claiming to have refuted it, and refute it.
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Little Owl
Member
Carry_Your_Name
Member
Perish with or without the law (Rom. 2:12), God will judge according to their own conscience (Rom. 2:15) and their deeds (Rom. 2:6). The only condemnation that would send one to hell with absolute certainty is the mark of the beast, before that there’s always a possibility for salvation.
When God judges according to conscience, they remain condemned because our conscience will not excuse everything.
12 For as many as have sinned without law will also perish without law, and as many as have sinned in the law will be judged by the law
13 (for not the hearers of the law are just in the sight of God, but the doers of the law will be justified;
. (Rom. 2:12-13 NKJ)
For whoever shall keep the whole law, and yet stumble in one point, he is guilty of all. (Jas. 2:10 NKJ)
No one does all the law, no one follows their conscience 100%, therefore both "will perish" without Jesus' propitiation.
Only in Christ is there salvation, by God's grace we are saved through faith in Him, period.