How does God Judge those who never heard the gospel of Christ?

[Alfred Persson]

Then such must be a flaw in Jesus's teaching, following the same logic that seems right to Him:

"If I have told you earthly things and you do not believe, how will you believe if I tell you heavenly things?" (Jn. 3:12)
"He who is faithful in what is least is faithful also in much; and he who is unjust in what is least is unjust also in much." (Lk. 16:10)

Gospel is not preached to the dead for repentence or conversion, but for judgement. "He who is unjust, let him be unjust still; he who is filthy, let him be filthy still; he who is righteous, let him be righteous still; he who is holy, let him be holy still." (Rev. 22:11) Your opinion reeks of Catholic purgatory teaching.

To set the captive free, those who're already in Abraham's bosom.

Alright, adieu.

You illustrated the only truth is what you believe. Nothing scripture says can change it. Christ said the dead who hear His voice will live. Did that affect your opinions? NO!

24 "Most assuredly, I say to you, he who hears My word and believes in Him who sent Me has everlasting life, and shall not come into judgment, but has passed from death into life.
25 "Most assuredly, I say to you, the hour is coming, and now is, when the dead will hear the voice of the Son of God; and those who hear will live.
26 "For as the Father has life in Himself, so He has granted the Son to have life in Himself, (Jn. 5:24-26 NKJ)

Your earthly things alone matter. Peter says the gospel is preached also to the dead. You say that's to condemn them!

That would be cruel, like telling a drowning person "too bad you don't have a life preserver"....As if they didn't know they were drowning.

So God cruely tells the doomed the gospel, when it will do them no good....to rub it in.

Ha ha sucker! You blew your chance! I just wanted to make sure you know that! Die the death, fool.

Yea, that's what God does. You got it right, don't let the scripture sway you otherwise. Keep on trucking.

 

[Carry_Your_Name]

You illustrated the only truth is what you believe. Nothing scripture says can change it. Christ said the dead who hear His voice will live. Did that affect your opinions? NO!

24 "Most assuredly, I say to you, he who hears My word and believes in Him who sent Me has everlasting life, and shall not come into judgment, but has passed from death into life.
25 "Most assuredly, I say to you, the hour is coming, and now is, when the dead will hear the voice of the Son of God; and those who hear will live.
26 "For as the Father has life in Himself, so He has granted the Son to have life in Himself, (Jn. 5:24-26 NKJ)

That's referring to the resurrection when he returns, which alludes to 1 Thess. 4:16-17 and Dan. 12:2. The saved rise first in the first resurrection, the unsaved do not rise until the end of the millennial reign, Rev. 20:5, 15. That has nothing to do with conversion or repentance of the dead.

Your earthly things alone matter. Peter says the gospel is preached also to the dead. You say that's to condemn them!

That would be cruel, like telling a drowning person "too bad you don't have a life preserver"....As if they didn't know they were drowning.

So God cruely tells the doomed the gospel, when it will do them no good....to rub it in.

Ha ha sucker! You blew your chance! I just wanted to make sure you know that! Die the death, fool.

Yea, that's what God does. You got it right, don't let the scripture sway you otherwise. Keep on trucking.

No more cruel than the unbelievers "being condemned ALREADY" (Jn. 3:18-21), or how about this - Sodom and Gomorrah being more tolerable than they in the eyes of God? Yeah, that's what God does, and indeed they didn't know they were drowning, since they prefer darkness to the light of hte gospel.

If the household is worthy, let your peace come upon it. But if it is not worthy, let your peace return to you. And whoever will not receive you nor hear your words, when you depart from that house or city, shake off the dust from your feet. Assuredly, I say to you, it will be more tolerable for the land of Sodom and Gomorrah in the day of judgment than for that city! (Matt. 10:13-15)

 

[Alfred Persson]

No more cruel than the unbelievers "being condemned ALREADY" (Jn. 3:18-21)

Telling a drowning person "you are dead already if you refuse my help" is not cruel, its love. Telling the drowing person "you're drowing!" without offering to help, is cruel.

 

[Fish153]

So how does God judge those who never heard about Christ, to put their faith in Him? They have zero knowledge.

If "faith in Christ" is replaced by "obedience to the amount of knowledge revealed", then zero knowledge is bliss. The wicked who had zero knowledge of Christ, are saved!

Stop asking about those who never heard about Christ. That is one of the atheist's greatest arguments. "How can I believe in a God who might send someone who never heard the Gospel to hell?" I always ask them "Have YOU had the opportunity to hear the Gospel?" And of course they HAVE. They love to continue their argument but it's quite stupid and based on conjecture. Have THEY THEMSELVES had an opportunity to hear the Gospel? Then RECEIVE IT and stop worrying about those who MIGHT NOT have the ability to hear it. GIVE money to missions if you're so worried about them. God is not unjust. His judgment will be righteous on the great day.

 

[Carry_Your_Name]

Telling a drowning person "you are dead already if you refuse my help" is not cruel, its love. Telling the drowing person "you're drowing!" without offering to help, is cruel.

How does that work on a drowning person who's convinced that he's Aquaman and he belongs to the abyss? Who'd rather die in a watery grave than live on dry land?

 

[Alfred Persson]

Stop asking about those who never heard about Christ. That is one of the atheist's greatest arguments. "How can I believe in a God who might send someone who never heard the Gospel to hell?" I always ask them "Have YOU had the opportunity to hear the Gospel?" And of course they HAVE. They love to continue their argument but it's quite stupid and based on conjecture. Have THEY THEMSELVES had an opportunity to hear the Gospel? Then RECEIVE IT and stop worrying about those who MIGHT NOT have the ability to hear it. GIVE money to missions if you're so worried about them. God is not unjust. His judgment will be righteous on the great day.

5 Walk in wisdom toward those who are outside, redeeming the time.
6 Let your speech always be with grace, seasoned with salt, that you may know how you ought to answer each one. (Col. 4:5-6 NKJ)

15 But sanctify the Lord God in your hearts, and always be ready to give a defense to everyone who asks you a reason for the hope that is in you, with meekness and fear;
16 having a good conscience, that when they defame you as evildoers, those who revile your good conduct in Christ may be ashamed. (1 Pet. 3:15-16 NKJ)

I enjoy proving they are wrong, have no case against God.

I was raised in American schools, taught evolution was true. But thankfully God sent those who knew how to refute "great atheist arguments", and I became a believer in Creationism, then Christ.

 

[Alfred Persson]

How does that work on a drowning person who's convinced that he's Aquaman and he belongs to the abyss? Who'd rather die in a watery grave than live on dry land?

Irrationality is a sign of cognitive dissonance, for which there is no outside cure. You must decide for yourself whether scripture, facts and common sense will change cherished beliefs.

 

[Carry_Your_Name]

Irrationality is a sign of cognitive dissonance, for which there is no outside cure. You must decide for yourself whether scripture, facts and common sense will change cherished beliefs.

Then don't accuse me or God of being "cruel". In the realm of the dead there's a great gulf between the saved and the unsaved, neither is able to come across to the other side (Lk. 16:26). You may have been taught that this was just a fictional parable and/or this is no longer applicable after the death, burial and resurrection of Jesus, I on the other hand believe His words are timeless, and most importantly, the bible never contradicts itself.

 

[Alfred Persson]

Then don't accuse me or God of being "cruel". In the realm of the dead there's a great gulf between the saved and the unsaved, neither is able to come across to the other side (Lk. 16:26). You may have been taught that this was just a fictional parable and/or this is no longer applicable after the death, burial and resurrection of Jesus, I on the other hand believe His words are timeless, and most importantly, the bible never contradicts itself.

I never accused God of anything, you're imagining that because of cognitive dissonance.

Of course the Bible doesn't contradict itself; You contradict the Bible.

For example, you left out Revelation 20:11-15 shows all the dead crossing the gulf to rise from Hades and Death. Moreover, Hades itself is cast into the lake of fire "gulf and all", ending it forever. That's what the second death symbolizes, nothing that dies "the death of the wicked" returns.

So everyone in hades crosses the "uncrossable gulf" on Judgment Day, but you contradict that. Don't care about it.

 

[Alfred Persson]

Then don't accuse me or God of being "cruel". In the realm of the dead there's a great gulf between the saved and the unsaved, neither is able to come across to the other side (Lk. 16:26). You may have been taught that this was just a fictional parable and/or this is no longer applicable after the death, burial and resurrection of Jesus, I on the other hand believe His words are timeless, and most importantly, the bible never contradicts itself.

I accuse my self of once thinking it meritous: "God, I still love You even if all my family went to hell when they died".

"It proved my love for God".

But how does He really view that as Scripture shows my family didn't stay in hell because when they got there, they repented of disbelif. Their delusions were completely refuted by the truth then before them. And because they were not wicked, they believed the gospel preached to them and lived according to God, now eagerly waiting for Christ's second coming to rise from the dead:

5 They will give an account to Him who is ready to judge the living and the dead.
6 For this reason the gospel was preached also to those who are dead, that they might be judged according to men in the flesh, but live according to God in the spirit. (1 Pet. 4:5-6 NKJ)

27 And as it is appointed for men to die once, but after this the judgment,
28 so Christ was offered once to bear the sins of many. To those who eagerly wait for Him He will appear a second time, apart from sin, for salvation. (Heb. 9:27-28 NKJ)

Isn't what I once thought meritous, blasphemous? Alleging God casts the ignorant into hell and gives no one a second chance?

We give each other second chances all the time. Christ taught we are to give 77 x 7 chances. Yet I once supposed God would find my "faith" meritous. In fact, it was blasphemous.

 

[Carry_Your_Name]

I never accused God of anything, you're imagining that because of cognitive dissonance.

Of course the Bible doesn't contradict itself; You contradict the Bible.

For example, you left out Revelation 20:11-15 shows all the dead crossing the gulf to rise from Hades and Death. Moreover, Hades itself is cast into the lake of fire "gulf and all", ending it forever. That's what the second death symbolizes, nothing that dies "the death of the wicked" returns.

So everyone in hades crosses the "uncrossable gulf" on Judgment Day, but you contradict that. Don't care about it.

You've just made all of those up. There's nothing in the text remotely suggesting that the unsaved cross the great gulf to the other side to get saved. Revelation 20:11-15 is the fulfillment of Dan. 12:2. All the saved had already risen at that point, in fact, 1000 years ago, the others who remain dead are resurrected for the white throne judgement and, subsequently, eternal death, not eternal life, 20:15. They're joining Hades and Death.

I accuse my self of once thinking it meritous: "God, I still love You even if all my family went to hell when they died".

"It proved my love for God".

No more meritous or blasphemous than Job who had a similar experience. His family died and he suffered greatly, all of those a loyalty test.

But how does He really view that as Scripture shows my family didn't stay in hell because when they got there, they repented of disbelif. Their delusions were completely refuted by the truth then before them. And because they were not wicked, they believed the gospel preached to them and lived according to God, now eagerly waiting for Christ's second coming to rise from the dead:

5 They will give an account to Him who is ready to judge the living and the dead.
6 For this reason the gospel was preached also to those who are dead, that they might be judged according to men in the flesh, but live according to God in the spirit. (1 Pet. 4:5-6 NKJ)

27 And as it is appointed for men to die once, but after this the judgment,
28 so Christ was offered once to bear the sins of many. To those who eagerly wait for Him He will appear a second time, apart from sin, for salvation. (Heb. 9:27-28 NKJ)

God's verdict is clear. Keep denying as much as you like.

“Then he cried and said, ‘Father Abraham, have mercy on me, and send Lazarus that he may dip the tip of his finger in water and cool my tongue; for I am tormented in this flame.’But Abraham said, ‘Son, remember that in your lifetime you received your good things, and likewise Lazarus evil things; but now he is comforted and you are tormented. And besides all this, between us and you there is a great gulf fixed, so that those who want to pass from here to you cannot, nor can those from there pass to us.’ (Lk. 16:24-26)

Isn't what I once thought meritous, blasphemous? Alleging God casts the ignorant into hell and gives no one a second chance?

We give each other second chances all the time. Christ taught we are to give 77 x 7 chances. Yet I once supposed God would find my "faith" meritous. In fact, it was blasphemous.

God also hardens the heart of Pharoah. The Sower scatters the seeds of gospel everyday, the reception of it is up to the soil.

 

[Alfred Persson]

You've just made all of those up. There's nothing in the text remotely suggesting that the unsaved cross the great gulf

The sea gave up the dead who were in it, and Death and Hades delivered up the dead who were in them (Rev. 20:13 NKJ)

The "gulf" is in Hades preventing the dead from leaving

UNTIL Judgment Day:

THEN, the dead cross the gulf when leaving Hades.

 

[Carry_Your_Name]

The sea gave up the dead who were in it, and Death and Hades delivered up the dead who were in them (Rev. 20:13 NKJ)

The "gulf" is in Hades preventing the dead from leaving

UNTIL Judgment Day:

THEN, the dead cross the gulf when leaving Hades.

Yeah, heading off to the Lake of Fire for the second death. Out of the frying pan, into the fire, literally.

 

[Alfred Persson]

Yeah, heading off to the Lake of Fire for the second death. Out of the frying pan, into the fire, literally.

You claimed it wasn't remotely possible the dead leave hades. You went on a tirade about that. Cognitive Dissonance.

The error was so glaring you want to change the subject. Instead, you should look up "cognitive dissonance" and how it prevents simple facts from being understood.

We all suffer from it to some degree. But being aware of it, is the first step to sound thinking.

 

[Carry_Your_Name]

You claimed it wasn't remotely possible the dead leave hades. You went on a tirade about that. Cognitive Dissonance.

The error was so glaring you want to change the subject. Instead, you should look up "cognitive dissonance" and how it prevents simple facts from being understood.

We all suffer from it to some degree. But being aware of it, is the first step to sound thinking.

How exactly are those people supposed to leave Hades, when they're joining Death and Hades in the Lake of Fire in Rev. 20:15? Who's really having cognitive dissonance? How convenient is it for you to slap 20:13 in my face while leaving the next two verse? This is nothing but ad hominem when you have no sound argument.

 

[hawkman]

TOS 1.2 Those who identify themselves as Christians will be held accountable to conduct themselves as such. If they are truly governed by the Holy Spirit, they will not continually engage in goading, mocking, insulting, trolling, berating or inciting other members to anger and resentment. They will post in a Spirit of kindness and respect, even if there are doctrinal disagreements, and be quick to reconcile if differences of opinion should get heated. Disciplinary actions will be taken against those whom staff regards to be naming the name of Christ and yet are holding the truth in unrighteousness.

 

[Alfred Persson]

How exactly are those people supposed to leave Hades, when they're joining Death and Hades in the Lake of Fire in Rev. 20:15? Who's really having cognitive dissonance? How convenient is it for you to slap 20:13 in my face while leaving the next two verse? This is nothing but ad hominem when you have no sound argument.

Lets illustrate how. You are in a room with a red line painted accross the floor. The door out is on the other side of the line.

God opens the door, and snatches you out of the room. Therefore, you must have crossed the red line as you left the room.

Rev. 20:13 says the dead rose from hades = left the room. Therefore, the verse proves the gulf was only impassible until Judgment Day.

God made it passible when He emptied Hades of its dead.

This is elementary deduction, a "sound argument" the "impassible gulf" is only temporary.

And that remains true regardless what you believe happens when death and hades are cast into the lake of fire.

Hades was empitied of its dead, the "impassible gulf" didn't prevent that:

The sea gave up the dead who were in it, and Death and Hades delivered up the dead who were in them. (Rev. 20:13 NKJ)

As for cognitive dissonance, I know I manifest that on occasion. The only cure for it is to discipline myself to see things as the other person does. That's hard. It takes work and I don't do it naturally. Sound thinking requires I overcome cognitive dissonance. For example. I pictured myself in a room, red painted line between me and the door out. It was painted so no one would pass over it. But I found it impossible to believe I didn't pass over it, when I left the room.

 

[Carry_Your_Name]

Lets illustrate how. You are in a room with a red line painted accross the floor. The door out is on the other side of the line.

God opens the door, and snatches you out of the room. Therefore, you must have crossed the red line as you left the room.

Rev. 20:13 says the dead rose from hades = left the room. Therefore, the verse proves the gulf was only impassible until Judgment Day.

God made it passible when He emptied Hades of its dead.

This is elementary deduction, a "sound argument" the "impassible gulf" is only temporary.

What's "only temporary" is the white throne judgement. After that, the dead are back to Hades in the Lake of Fire. There's no place for them in the new heaven and new earth.

"Then I saw a great white throne and Him who sat on it, from whose face the earth and the heaven fled away. And there was found no place for them." (Rev. 20:11)

And that remains true regardless what you believe happens when death and hades are cast into the lake of fire.

Nothing remains true in your contradiction against the Lord's words in Lk. 16:26.

As for cognitive dissonance, I know I manifest that on occasion. The only cure for it is to discipline myself to see things as the other person does. That's hard. It takes work and I don't do it naturally. Sound thinking requires I overcome cognitive dissonance. For example. I pictured myself in a room, red painted line between me and the door out. It was painted so no one would pass over it. But I found it impossible to believe I didn't pass over it, when I left the room.

You're condemning yourself as long as you only choose to see what you want to see. No bible verse means anything when you single it out of the context and develop a whole set of theology around it. In fact, it has been studied that you can back any theory or ideology with bible verses, including abortion, socialism and genecide.

 

[Alfred Persson]

You're condemning yourself as long as you only choose to see what you want to see. No bible verse means anything when you single it out of the context and develop a whole set of theology around it. In fact, it has been studied that you can back any theory or ideology with bible verses, including abortion, socialism and genecide.

When I believed protoCatholic eschatology, when cognitive dissonance prevented me from seeing what's in scripture, that is when I saw only what "others insisted I see" in Scripture. But one day I began believing the Bible, not "the Reformers". And this is what I saw:

Salvation is Exclusive to Christ: “Jesus said to him, “I am the way, the truth, and the life. No one comes to the Father except through Me” (Jn. 14:6 NKJ). “Nor is there salvation in any other, for there is no other name under heaven given among men by which we must be saved” (Acts 4:12 NKJ).

It does not require temporal or geographical luck, everyone from Adam and Eve hears the gospel of Christ preached when their appointed deaths occur. Then is the “Judgment/trial” if Christ’s “Timeless sacrifice” “to bear the sins of many” includes them. To finite creatures living in spacetime this “is impossible, but not with God who dwells in eternity (Isa. 57:15); “for with God all things are possible” (Mk. 10:27 NKJ).

A Survey of Scriptures where Postmortem Opportunity for Salvation may be taught:

Dt. 32:39 [#A]; 1Sam. 2:6 [#B]; 2Sam. 22:5-7 [#C]; Ps. 16:10-11 [#D]; Ps. 30:1-4 [#E]; Ps. 40:1-3 [#F]; Ps. 49:12-15 [#G]; Ps. 56:13 [#H]; Ps. 68:18-20 [#I]; Ps. 69:13-18 [#J]; Ps. 71:19-23 [#K]; Ps. 86:13 [#L]; Ps. 102:18-22 [#M]; Ps. 116:1-9 [#N]; Hos. 13:14 [#O]; Jon. 2:1-10 [#P]; Zec. 9:9-11 [#Q]; Mt. 12:30-32[#R]; John 5:28-29[#S]; Rm. 11:25-36[#T]; 1 Pt. 3:18-22[#U]; 1 Pt. 4:6[#V]; 1 Cor. 5:5[#W]; Eph. 4:8-10[#I]; Heb. 9:27-28[#X]; Rev. 20:11-15[#Y];Luke 16:19-31[#Z]; John 3:16-18[#ZA]

 

[Carry_Your_Name]

When I believed protoCatholic eschatology, when cognitive dissonance prevented me from seeing what's in scripture, that is when I saw only what "others insisted I see" in Scripture. But one day I began believing the Bible, not "the Reformers". And this is what I saw:

Salvation is Exclusive to Christ: “Jesus said to him, “I am the way, the truth, and the life. No one comes to the Father except through Me” (Jn. 14:6 NKJ). “Nor is there salvation in any other, for there is no other name under heaven given among men by which we must be saved” (Acts 4:12 NKJ).

It does not require temporal or geographical luck, everyone from Adam and Eve hears the gospel of Christ preached when their appointed deaths occur. Then is the “Judgment/trial” if Christ’s “Timeless sacrifice” “to bear the sins of many” includes them. To finite creatures living in spacetime this “is impossible, but not with God who dwells in eternity (Isa. 57:15); “for with God all things are possible” (Mk. 10:27 NKJ).

A Survey of Scriptures where Postmortem Opportunity for Salvation may be taught:

Dt. 32:39 [#A]; 1Sam. 2:6 [#B]; 2Sam. 22:5-7 [#C]; Ps. 16:10-11 [#D]; Ps. 30:1-4 [#E]; Ps. 40:1-3 [#F]; Ps. 49:12-15 [#G]; Ps. 56:13 [#H]; Ps. 68:18-20 [#I]; Ps. 69:13-18 [#J]; Ps. 71:19-23 [#K]; Ps. 86:13 [#L]; Ps. 102:18-22 [#M]; Ps. 116:1-9 [#N]; Hos. 13:14 [#O]; Jon. 2:1-10 [#P]; Zec. 9:9-11 [#Q]; Mt. 12:30-32[#R]; John 5:28-29[#S]; Rm. 11:25-36[#T]; 1 Pt. 3:18-22[#U]; 1 Pt. 4:6[#V]; 1 Cor. 5:5[#W]; Eph. 4:8-10[#I]; Heb. 9:27-28[#X]; Rev. 20:11-15[#Y];Luke 16:19-31[#Z]; John 3:16-18[#ZA]

You're essentially preaching purgatory, even though you've forsworn "protoCatholic eschatology". You go believe whatever you wanna believe, but don't falsely diagnose me with "cognitive dissonance" when you're still in the thick of it.