How does God Judge those who never heard the gospel of Christ?

[Carry_Your_Name]

When God judges according to conscience, they remain condemned because our conscience will not excuse everything.

12 For as many as have sinned without law will also perish without law, and as many as have sinned in the law will be judged by the law
13 (for not the hearers of the law are just in the sight of God, but the doers of the law will be justified;
. (Rom. 2:12-13 NKJ)

For whoever shall keep the whole law, and yet stumble in one point, he is guilty of all. (Jas. 2:10 NKJ)


No one does all the law, no one follows their conscience 100%, therefore both "will perish" without Jesus' propitiation.

Only in Christ is there salvation, by God's grace we are saved through faith in Him, period.

I totally agree, but to play the devil's advocate, there're some sentimental and argumentative folks who'd turn to those who pass away as infants, toddlers and aborted fetus - what about them? Do they all go to hell? Furthermore, this may somehow inflate a sense of pride and superiority, that since Jesus is the only way to salvation, only I and my peers in my church community are saved, whomever I perceive as "pagan", "atheist", "infidel", "apostate" or a numskull who's never heard or understood the gospel is beneath me, they're all on a highway to hell while I'm heading to heaven. We can't have this kind of attitude.

 

[Carry_Your_Name]

No. Mental disability, abortion...everyone dying without Christ goes to hades, which isn't like "hell" in protocatholic lore.

This is why it is appointed for men to die, and then Judgment. (Heb. 9:27-28)

An aborted fetus "wakes up" fully cognizant, fully aware, possessing total free will. During the "judgment" all is made known, the Gospel of Christ is preached (1 Pet. 4:6) and the now grown up adult makes the choice whether to obey God and live with Him, or not.

If the fetus (now adult) is wicked and cannot abide with God, then it waits in Hades for Judgment Day and rises with the rest of the human dead (Rev. 20:13-15) and as its name is not in the Book of life it is cast into the lake of fire. As punishment in the Lake of Fire is "according to his works" (Rev. 20:13) and he has none, he is immediately consumed by the fire and ceases to exist.

If the fetus makes the free will choice to obey God, the sacrifice of Christ is applied and he eagerly waits in Hades for the second coming of Christ, for salvation. He will rise with all the Christian dead during the "First Resurrection/Rap[ture" when Christ comes (Heb. 9:27-28; 1 Thess. 4:13-18; 5:1-4; 2 Thess. 2:1-4; 1 Cor. 5:5, 15:51-54; Rev. 14:12-16; 20:4-6).

Salvation only occurs in Jesus, nothing else. There is no "age of accountability, no exceptions for retardation etc.). Upon physical death the soul "wakes up" as an adult fully aware of their situation, who God is and what is at stake.

Salvation occurs exclusively in Christ. Everyone must confess Jesus Christ is LORD to be saved. Only belief in Christ is the grounds for salvation or condemnation. All who reject Christ, are rejected.

There are tormenting regions of Hades (Lk. 16:22-24), but a fetus who died and rejects Christ wouldn't find hades pleasant, but they would be in a state of near sleep (John 11:13; 1 Cor. 15:51; 1 Th. 4:14) so time would pass so quickly a thousand years would seem like a day (2 Pet. 3:8).

If you go back to Genesis, the deceased are "gathered to his kins" - "Then Abraham breathed his last and died at a good old age, an old man and full of years; and he was gathered to his people” (Genesis 25:8). The same was applied to Ishmael (Genesis 25:17), Isaac (Genesis 35:29), Jacob (Genesis 49:33), Aaron (Numbers 20:24), and Moses (Numbers 27:13). This should not be taken in a literal sense that they were buried in family grave, since Abraham was NOT buried with his parents back in Mesopotamia, neither was Moses or Aaron buried with their ancestors. A better, more reasonable view is that gathered to his people refers to joining past generations in death. Therefore, aborted fetus and other "unwashed masses" will simply go join their ancestors upon death, wherever their ancestors end up in, they'll end up in.

If you're gonna argue that this is OT theology that's obsolete after Christ, then that's your belief which I don't espouse.

 

[Alfred Persson]

I totally agree, but to play the devil's advocate, there're some sentimental and argumentative folks who'd turn to those who pass away as infants, toddlers and aborted fetus - what about them? Do they all go to hell? Furthermore, this may somehow inflate a sense of pride and superiority, that since Jesus is the only way to salvation, only I and my peers in my church community are saved, whomever I perceive as "pagan", "atheist", "infidel", "apostate" or a numskull who's never heard or understood the gospel is beneath me, they're all on a highway to hell while I'm heading to heaven. We can't have this kind of attitude.

The soul within an Aborted fetus "wakes up in hades" (the unseen realm) in neither torment or bliss, fully grown up intellectually, having free will. "He" is in hades not because he sinned but because he never became alive in Christ. As a descendant of Adam he remained "in a state of death". Only what is alive can be in God's presence:

Human beings are "born dead spiritually", they remain dead until belief in Christ, then they become alive:

For as in Adam all die, even so in Christ all shall be made alive. (1 Cor. 15:22 NKJ)

"Most assuredly, I say to you, he who hears My word and believes in Him who sent Me has everlasting life, and shall not come into judgment, but has passed from death into life. (Jn. 5:24 NKJ)

Therefore, the aborted fetus cannot enter heaven (or the upper level of sheol, paradise, third heaven) because it is dead. What is dead descends into a part of Hades that is "NEUTRAL", to be judged. It is appointed all in Adam (still dead, not saved) die and then they are judged:

Inasmuch as it is appointed for men to die once, and after this, judgment, (Heb. 9:27 RPTE)
The Gospel is preached to the dead so they can believe the gospel and choose to live according to God:

For this reason the gospel was preached also to those who are dead, that they might be judged according to men in the flesh, but live according to God in the spirit. (1 Pet. 4:6 NKJ)

Those who choose to live according to God are then "enveloped by the Holy Spirit" and live in a "state of sleeplike bliss" "EAGERLING WAITING" until the "first resurrection" "rapture" "gathering" "rising with the church" AT Christ's Second Coming salvation from Hades:

so Christ also, having been offered once to bear the sins of many, will appear a second time, without sin, to those who are eagerly waiting for him for salvation. (Heb. 9:28 RPTE)

During their "Judgment" it was determined "those who believe the Gospel of Christ preached to them" are among "the many" Christ was offered to bear the sins for. But they cannot cross over from Hades (Lk. 16 :26) to paradise where the redeemed are with Abraham. They have to wait in the "neutral part" of Hades until Christ's second coming, THEN the dead in Christ rise to meet Him in the air:

16 For the Lord Himself will descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of an archangel, and with the trumpet of God. And the dead in Christ will rise first.
17 Then we who are alive and remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds to meet the Lord in the air. And thus we shall always be with the Lord. (1 Thess. 4:16-17 NKJ)

What about those in the upper level of Sheol/Hades/Unseen Realm, in "third heaven/paradise/Abraham's bosom" with Abraham and Lazarus? What of thei souls?

When Christ begins His second coming, He brings them with Him as He descends:\

13 But I do not want you to be ignorant, brethren, concerning those who have fallen asleep, lest you sorrow as others who have no hope.
14 For if we believe that Jesus died and rose again, even so God will bring with Him those who sleep in Jesus.
15 For this we say to you by the word of the Lord, that we who are alive and remain until the coming of the Lord will by no means precede those who are asleep.
16 For the Lord Himself will descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of an archangel, and with the trumpet of God. And the dead in Christ will rise first.
17 Then we who are alive and remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds to meet the Lord in the air. And thus we shall always be with the Lord.
18 Therefore comfort one another with these words. (1 Thess. 4:13-5:1 NKJ)

During Christ's parousia ("coming") those He brough with Him and the dead in Him in Hades, rise in supernatural bodies like Christ's. They are changed in a "twinkling of an eye", reunited with their glorious resurrection body that is infused with life, immortality, power like the resurrection body of Christ:

45 And so it is written, "The first man Adam became a living being." The last Adam became a life-giving spirit.
46 However, the spiritual is not first, but the natural, and afterward the spiritual.
47 The first man was of the earth, made of dust; the second Man is the Lord from heaven.
48 As was the man of dust, so also are those who are made of dust; and as is the heavenly Man, so also are those who are heavenly.
49 And as we have borne the image of the man of dust, we shall also bear the image of the heavenly Man.
50 Now this I say, brethren, that flesh and blood cannot inherit the kingdom of God; nor does corruption inherit incorruption.
51 Behold, I tell you a mystery: We shall not all sleep, but we shall all be changed--
52 in a moment, in the twinkling of an eye, at the last trumpet. For the trumpet will sound, and the dead will be raised incorruptible, and we shall be changed.
53 For this corruptible must put on incorruption, and this mortal must put on immortality.
54 So when this corruptible has put on incorruption, and this mortal has put on immortality, then shall be brought to pass the saying that is written: "Death is swallowed up in victory."
55 "O Death, where is your sting? O Hades, where is your victory?" (1 Cor. 15:45-55 NKJ)

 

[Alfred Persson]

If you go back to Genesis, the deceased are "gathered to his kins" - "Then Abraham breathed his last and died at a good old age, an old man and full of years; and he was gathered to his people” (Genesis 25:8). The same was applied to Ishmael (Genesis 25:17), Isaac (Genesis 35:29), Jacob (Genesis 49:33), Aaron (Numbers 20:24), and Moses (Numbers 27:13). This should not be taken in a literal sense that they were buried in family grave, since Abraham was NOT buried with his parents back in Mesopotamia, neither was Moses or Aaron buried with their ancestors. A better, more reasonable view is that gathered to his people refers to joining past generations in death. Therefore, aborted fetus and other "unwashed masses" will simply go join their ancestors upon death, wherever their ancestors end up in, they'll end up in.

If you're gonna argue that this is OT theology that's obsolete after Christ, then that's your belief which I don't espouse.

Your theory leaves out the Eternal Redemption Jesus obtained for all born "since the foundation of the world" that was offered in the Heavenly Holy of Holies which through the eternal Spirit is applied to all the OT saints. So they were gathered to their people because Christ paid for their sins. No one saved apart from Jesus:

22 And according to the law almost all things are purified with blood, and without shedding of blood there is no remission.
23 Therefore it was necessary that the copies of the things in the heavens should be purified with these, but the heavenly things themselves with better sacrifices than these.
24 For Christ has not entered the holy places made with hands, which are copies of the true, but into heaven itself, now to appear in the presence of God for us;
25 not that He should offer Himself often, as the high priest enters the Most Holy Place every year with blood of another--
26 He then would have had to suffer often since the foundation of the world; but now, once at the end of the ages, He has appeared to put away sin by the sacrifice of Himself.
27 And as it is appointed for men to die once, but after this the judgment,
28 so Christ was offered once to bear the sins of many. To those who eagerly wait for Him He will appear a second time, apart from sin, for salvation. (Heb. 9:22-28 NKJ)

Salvation of everyone happens EXCLUSIVELY "through Jesus Christ", even the salvation of Adam and Eve and everyone born brain dead, who died before the age of accountability....No one is saved apart from Christ in any other name.

This is why the gospel must also be preached to the dead, so they can be judged according to the judgment all men receive:

For this reason the gospel was preached also to those who are dead, that they might be judged according to men in the flesh, but live according to God in the spirit. (1 Pet. 4:6 NKJ)

God is just, there is no partiality with God.

Everyone has an equal shot at being saved regardless their geographical, temporal, or physical circumstances.

This is why God sacrificed His only begotten Son, so the entire Kosmos (entire world of men leaving no one out) can be saved according to the same principle:

14 "And as Moses lifted up the serpent in the wilderness, even so must the Son of Man be lifted up,
15 "that whoever believes in Him should not perish but have eternal life.
16 "For God so loved the world that He gave His only begotten Son, that whoever believes in Him should not perish but have everlasting life.
17 "For God did not send His Son into the world to condemn the world, but that the world through Him might be saved.
18 "He who believes in Him is not condemned; but he who does not believe is condemned already, because he has not believed in the name of the only begotten Son of God.
(Jn. 3:14-18 NKJ)

 

[Little Owl]

That was in the rain forest of the Amazon. Hope he was tasty. He now sits with the Kings and priests of Christ, in glory. I envy him.

No,that was North Sentinel Island.
If you envy his horrific murder you can always follow in his footsteps and book a flight to the mainland and then hire or buy a boat and make your way to the island.

Just out of respect for your family make sure you get your affairs in order first. You'll never be seen again. In human form.

 

[Alfred Persson]

No,that was North Sentinel Island.
If you envy his horrific murder you can always follow in his footsteps and book a flight to the mainland and then hire or buy a boat and make your way to the island.

Just out of respect for your family make sure you get your affairs in order first. You'll never be seen again. In human form.

Of course I don't crave being murdered.

To die a martyr is glorious, perfect praise of God who is worth it, worth losing everything even life itself, for life with Him.

12 Here is the patience of the saints; here are those who keep the commandments of God and the faith of Jesus.
13 Then I heard a voice from heaven saying to me, "Write:`Blessed are the dead who die in the Lord from now on.'" "Yes," says the Spirit, "that they may rest from their labors, and their works follow them." (Rev. 14:12-13 NKJ)

And I saw thrones, and they sat on them, and judgment was committed to them. Then I saw the souls of those who had been beheaded for their witness to Jesus and for the word of God, who had not worshiped the beast or his image, and had not received his mark on their foreheads or on their hands. And they lived and reigned with Christ for a thousand years. (Rev. 20:4 NKJ)

 

[Carry_Your_Name]

Your theory leaves out the Eternal Redemption Jesus obtained for all born "since the foundation of the world" that was offered in the Heavenly Holy of Holies which through the eternal Spirit is applied to all the OT saints. So they were gathered to their people because Christ paid for their sins. No one saved apart from Jesus:

Why was Ishmael, the ancestor of today’s muslims, gathered to the same people the other patriarchs went to? There were also several evil Israel kings who were “gathered to their people” as well upon death, are they all OT saints whom Jesus descended to save? They got the same treatment- dust returned to dust, the difference is in Daniel 12:2 - all will rise from the dead, some in eternal life, others In everlasting contempt.

 

[Whatever]

I propose God so loved the world He not only gave His only begotten Son, He made sure everyone born since the foundation of this world, would hear about Him. But no one here agrees with me so I ask everyone here, how do you resolve the dilemma?

There are 66 other posts ahead of me and I haven't read them all.
First, how did Cannibals living in the Amazon rain forest 1,000 years ago hear about Jesus?

To me there is no "dilemma." He gave His Son so that every one who believes on Him will not perish but have ever lasting life. The Bible makes it clear that God is Omniscient, knowing the end from the beginning.

Either God already had foreknowledge of every single person who would believe (and persevere to the end) and sent His Son for each of those exact persons and the rest be damned to show His wrath and to make His power known (Romans 9:22)

Or as Calvinism teaches God elected those He wants to save and sent His Son to make atonement for them and the Holy Spirit gives them the gift of faith (Eph 2:8)

The only dilemma is if you put man first and make God obligated to save them all, rather than God doing all things for His own glory.

 

[Carry_Your_Name]

The soul within an Aborted fetus "wakes up in hades" (the unseen realm) in neither torment or bliss, fully grown up intellectually, having free will. "He" is in hades not because he sinned but because he never became alive in Christ. As a descendant of Adam he remained "in a state of death". Only what is alive can be in God's presence:

Human beings are "born dead spiritually", they remain dead until belief in Christ, then they become alive:

For as in Adam all die, even so in Christ all shall be made alive. (1 Cor. 15:22 NKJ)

"Most assuredly, I say to you, he who hears My word and believes in Him who sent Me has everlasting life, and shall not come into judgment, but has passed from death into life. (Jn. 5:24 NKJ)

Therefore, the aborted fetus cannot enter heaven (or the upper level of sheol, paradise, third heaven) because it is dead. What is dead descends into a part of Hades that is "NEUTRAL", to be judged. It is appointed all in Adam (still dead, not saved) die and then they are judged:

Inasmuch as it is appointed for men to die once, and after this, judgment, (Heb. 9:27 RPTE)
The Gospel is preached to the dead so they can believe the gospel and choose to live according to God:

For this reason the gospel was preached also to those who are dead, that they might be judged according to men in the flesh, but live according to God in the spirit. (1 Pet. 4:6 NKJ)

Those who choose to live according to God are then "enveloped by the Holy Spirit" and live in a "state of sleeplike bliss" "EAGERLING WAITING" until the "first resurrection" "rapture" "gathering" "rising with the church" AT Christ's Second Coming salvation from Hades:

so Christ also, having been offered once to bear the sins of many, will appear a second time, without sin, to those who are eagerly waiting for him for salvation. (Heb. 9:28 RPTE)

During their "Judgment" it was determined "those who believe the Gospel of Christ preached to them" are among "the many" Christ was offered to bear the sins for. But they cannot cross over from Hades (Lk. 16 :26) to paradise where the redeemed are with Abraham. They have to wait in the "neutral part" of Hades until Christ's second coming, THEN the dead in Christ rise to meet Him in the air:

16 For the Lord Himself will descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of an archangel, and with the trumpet of God. And the dead in Christ will rise first.
17 Then we who are alive and remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds to meet the Lord in the air. And thus we shall always be with the Lord. (1 Thess. 4:16-17 NKJ)

What about those in the upper level of Sheol/Hades/Unseen Realm, in "third heaven/paradise/Abraham's bosom" with Abraham and Lazarus? What of thei souls?

When Christ begins His second coming, He brings them with Him as He descends:\

13 But I do not want you to be ignorant, brethren, concerning those who have fallen asleep, lest you sorrow as others who have no hope.
14 For if we believe that Jesus died and rose again, even so God will bring with Him those who sleep in Jesus.
15 For this we say to you by the word of the Lord, that we who are alive and remain until the coming of the Lord will by no means precede those who are asleep.
16 For the Lord Himself will descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of an archangel, and with the trumpet of God. And the dead in Christ will rise first.
17 Then we who are alive and remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds to meet the Lord in the air. And thus we shall always be with the Lord.
18 Therefore comfort one another with these words. (1 Thess. 4:13-5:1 NKJ)

During Christ's parousia ("coming") those He brough with Him and the dead in Him in Hades, rise in supernatural bodies like Christ's. They are changed in a "twinkling of an eye", reunited with their glorious resurrection body that is infused with life, immortality, power like the resurrection body of Christ:

45 And so it is written, "The first man Adam became a living being." The last Adam became a life-giving spirit.
46 However, the spiritual is not first, but the natural, and afterward the spiritual.
47 The first man was of the earth, made of dust; the second Man is the Lord from heaven.
48 As was the man of dust, so also are those who are made of dust; and as is the heavenly Man, so also are those who are heavenly.
49 And as we have borne the image of the man of dust, we shall also bear the image of the heavenly Man.
50 Now this I say, brethren, that flesh and blood cannot inherit the kingdom of God; nor does corruption inherit incorruption.
51 Behold, I tell you a mystery: We shall not all sleep, but we shall all be changed--
52 in a moment, in the twinkling of an eye, at the last trumpet. For the trumpet will sound, and the dead will be raised incorruptible, and we shall be changed.
53 For this corruptible must put on incorruption, and this mortal must put on immortality.
54 So when this corruptible has put on incorruption, and this mortal has put on immortality, then shall be brought to pass the saying that is written: "Death is swallowed up in victory."
55 "O Death, where is your sting? O Hades, where is your victory?" (1 Cor. 15:45-55 NKJ)

You didn’t address my second concern - the disciples of Jesus are called “My brethren the LEAST of these”, but how should we stay humble as the least of these, not arrogant as the most of these, with the conviction and confidence that we’re heading to heaven with the Lord while all the others who have never known Jesus or only known a false Jesus - either non-Christians, apostates, lukewarm Christians, or cultist Christians such as Mormons - are “condemned” to hell? I’m not challenging your view or theology, you know, I’m just raising awareness of the consequences and repercussions that may come as a result, that you grow complacent, prideful and close-minded, and you become the lukewarm church you used to criticize. This is not an imaginary or hypothetical scenario, but a sad reality in most churches.

 

[Alfred Persson]

You didn’t address my second concern - the disciples of Jesus are called “My brethren the LEAST of these”, but how should we stay humble as the least of these, not arrogant as the most of these, with the conviction and confidence that we’re heading to heaven with the Lord while all the others who have never known Jesus or only known a false Jesus - either non-Christians, apostates, lukewarm Christians, or cultist Christians such as Mormons - are “condemned” to hell? I’m not challenging your view or theology, you know, I’m just raising awareness of the consequences and repercussions that may come as a result, that you grow complacent, prideful and close-minded, and you become the lukewarm church you used to criticize. This is not an imaginary or hypothetical scenario, but a sad reality in most churches.

Two sides to every coin. Suppose God saves all, Devil's children included. In God's kingdom they rape, rob and pillage God's people. Attacking them from every side. Universalism doesn't care about justice for God's people, or His love for His people. No, its the Devil's children who get every benefit.

However, when the devil's children manifest themselves, fire comes down from heaven to consume them all:

7 Now when the thousand years have expired, Satan will be released from his prison
8 and will go out to deceive the nations which are in the four corners of the earth, Gog and Magog, to gather them together to battle, whose number is as the sand of the sea.
9 They went up on the breadth of the earth and surrounded the camp of the saints and the beloved city. And fire came down from God out of heaven and devoured them.
10 The devil, who deceived them, was cast into the lake of fire and brimstone where the beast and the false prophet are. And they will be tormented day and night forever and ever. (Rev. 20:7-10 NKJ)

Not only will I humbly thank God for rescuing me, I will be absolutely in Awe and Terror of His power to crush evil.

That's the side of the coin I like. You can have yours. Be consistent. Vote to Defund the police so you can rejoice in love and mercy for all, in this life. Hit the ground running in the next, you might get there sooner than you think once the felons are free, free at last!

What a life that will be, the Devil's children roaming free:

Girl, seven, is 'gang-raped by boys aged seven and eight'

The boys, aged seven and eight, are accused of raping the younger girl in the city of Ballia, in Uttar Pradesh, on Friday, according to local media reports.

www.dailymail.co.uk

 

[Carry_Your_Name]

Two sides to every coin. Suppose God saves all, Devil's children included. In God's kingdom they rape, rob and pillage God's people. Attacking them from every side. Universalism doesn't care about justice for God's people, or His love for His people. No, its the Devil's children who get every benefit.

However, when the devil's children manifest themselves, fire comes down from heaven to consume them all:

7 Now when the thousand years have expired, Satan will be released from his prison
8 and will go out to deceive the nations which are in the four corners of the earth, Gog and Magog, to gather them together to battle, whose number is as the sand of the sea.
9 They went up on the breadth of the earth and surrounded the camp of the saints and the beloved city. And fire came down from God out of heaven and devoured them.
10 The devil, who deceived them, was cast into the lake of fire and brimstone where the beast and the false prophet are. And they will be tormented day and night forever and ever. (Rev. 20:7-10 NKJ)

Not only will I humbly thank God for rescuing me, I will be absolutely in Awe and Terror of His power to crush evil.

That's the side of the coin I like. You can have yours. Be consistent. Vote to Defund the police so you can rejoice in love and mercy for all, in this life. Hit the ground running in the next, you might get there sooner than you think once the felons are free, free at last!

What a life that will be, the Devil's children roaming free:

Girl, seven, is 'gang-raped by boys aged seven and eight'

The boys, aged seven and eight, are accused of raping the younger girl in the city of Ballia, in Uttar Pradesh, on Friday, according to local media reports.

www.dailymail.co.uk

I've clarified and emphasized that I'm not challenging your view or theology, neither am I promoting universalism, please stop making false accusations. I'm raising a legitimate concern regarding not our vertical relationship with God, but our horinzontal relationship with others. This is not about rapists, felons or any other boogeyman which you only hear from the news, it's about your closest friend and family whom you can't connect with and can't avoid either. That's the predicament I think I find myself in, it's hard for me to communicate with my folks, we don't share same values, worldviews and knowldeges anymore, they don't understand me and I don't understand them. That's another coin with two sides - Jesus came with his blood to save, but also with a sword to divide. I don't have a problem with loving the Lord with all my soul, but loving my neighbors as myself.

 

[Alfred Persson]

I've clarified and emphasized that I'm not challenging your view or theology, neither am I promoting universalism, please stop making false accusations. I'm raising a legitimate concern regarding not our vertical relationship with God, but our horinzontal relationship with others. This is not about rapists, felons or any other boogeyman which you only hear from the news, it's about your closest friend and family whom you can't connect with and can't avoid either. That's the predicament I think I find myself in, it's hard for me to communicate with my folks, we don't share same values, worldviews and knowldeges anymore, they don't understand me and I don't understand them. That's another coin with two sides - Jesus came with his blood to save, but also with a sword to divide. I don't have a problem with loving the Lord with all my soul, but loving my neighbors as myself.

I apologize for misunderstanding. I have the same problem with my brothers: One belongs to an offshoot of the Armstrong cult, the other agnostic who can read the bible and not get the impression its from God, supernatural. Totally opposite of me, when I first started reading the power of God's word gripped me, I read the bible cover to cover...couldn't stop.

I trust in Yahweh God, His plan. I truly believe both will be saved. Both go to hades upon death (not believing in Christ revealed in scripture), but both will repent and believe when the gospel is preached to them in their "heightened intellectual state where their free will isn't clouded by delusion of any sort."

So if your family isn't wicked, its 100% certain they will jump at the opportunity that is exclusively in Jesus, and believe in Him as LORD. Then they too, after this judgment, will eagerly wait for Christ's second coming to save them from Hades, raise them up from the dead with the Church:

26 or else he must have suffered often since the foundation of the world. But now once at the end of the ages, he has been revealed to put away sin by the sacrifice of himself.
27 Inasmuch as it is appointed for men to die once, and after this, judgment,
28 so Christ also, having been offered once to bear the sins of many, will appear a second time, without sin, to those who are eagerly waiting for him for salvation. (Heb. 9:26-28 RPTE)

For to this end the Good News was preached even to the dead, that they might be judged indeed as men in the flesh, but live as to God in the spirit. (1 Pet. 4:6 RPTE)

Although in Hades, when they repent and "live according to God" (the gospel of Christ) they are enveloped by the Holy Spirit, "quickened" as though given "water", refreshed and in a state of relaxation just as the redeemed are in Abraham's bosom. But they can't leave Hades until the rapture/resurrection of the church at Christ's coming:

13 But we do not want you to be ignorant, brothers, concerning those who have fallen asleep, so that you do not grieve like the rest, who have no hope.
14 For if we believe that Jesus died and rose again, even so God will bring with him those who have fallen asleep in Jesus.
15 For this we tell you by the word of the Lord, that we who are alive, who are left to the coming of the Lord, will in no way precede those who have fallen asleep.
16 For the Lord himself will descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of the archangel, and with God's trumpet. The dead in Christ will rise first,
17 then we who are alive, who are left, will be caught up together with them in the clouds, to meet the Lord in the air. So we will be with the Lord forever.
18 Therefore comfort one another with these words. (1 Thess. 4:13-5:1 RPTE)

So my advice to you is "trust God", if they aren't wicked they will repent and believe and you will see them in God's Kingdom. Meanwhile I do pray God open their eyes before they die so they can be gathered to Abraham and Lazarus in Paradise, and avoid Hades entirely.

One last apologetic point. We both know God is "all knowing", Infinite in intellectual capacity. Why or HOW could such a infinitely smart Person leave the salvation of the human race, to the Christian church? To incompetent bumbling fools? He wouldn't. His Plan is perfect, everyone righteous will be saved, everyone wicked will be lost, and those guilty of eternal sins will suffer eternally. Perfect.

In fact, when Paul got a glimpse of God's mercy with those Israelites who died "enemies of the gospel", he broke out in praise:

26 and so all Israel will be saved. Even as it is written,"There will come out of Zion the Deliverer,and he will turn away ungodliness from Jacob.
27 This is my covenant to them,when I will take away their sins."
28 Concerning the Good News, they are enemies for your sake. But concerning the election, they are beloved for the fathers' sake.
29 For the gifts and the calling of God are irrevocable.
30 For as you in time past were disobedient to God, but now have obtained mercy by their disobedience,
31 even so these also have now been disobedient, that by the mercy shown to you they may also obtain mercy.
32 For God has shut up all to disobedience, that he might have mercy on all.
33 Oh the depth of the riches both of the wisdom and the knowledge of God! How unsearchable are his judgments, and his ways past tracing out!
34 "For who has known the mind of the Lord?Or who has been his counselor?"
35 "Or who has first given to him,and it will be repaid to him again?"
36 For of him, and through him, and to him, are all things. To him be the glory for ever! Amen. (Rom. 11:26-36 RPTE)

 

[Alfred Persson]

There are 66 other posts ahead of me and I haven't read them all.
First, how did Cannibals living in the Amazon rain forest 1,000 years ago hear about Jesus?

To me there is no "dilemma." He gave His Son so that every one who believes on Him will not perish but have ever lasting life. The Bible makes it clear that God is Omniscient, knowing the end from the beginning.

Either God already had foreknowledge of every single person who would believe (and persevere to the end) and sent His Son for each of those exact persons and the rest be damned to show His wrath and to make His power known (Romans 9:22)

Or as Calvinism teaches God elected those He wants to save and sent His Son to make atonement for them and the Holy Spirit gives them the gift of faith (Eph 2:8)

The only dilemma is if you put man first and make God obligated to save them all, rather than God doing all things for His own glory.

Why not read them? If you want to hear a totally new view of this, read my posts. I also posted the gist of it here:

It is appointed unto men once to die, but after this the judgment (Heb. 9:27 KJV) | End Time News

Universal Opportunity for Salvation in Christ: A Theological Examination of Salvation Beyond Temporal and Geographical Boundaries Abstract This paper explores the theological question of salvation for those who, due to the limitations of time and place, have not had direct access to the message...

endtimenews.net

 

[Carry_Your_Name]

I apologize for misunderstanding. I have the same problem with my brothers: One belongs to an offshoot of the Armstrong cult, the other agnostic who can read the bible and not get the impression its from God, supernatural. Totally opposite of me, when I first started reading the power of God's word gripped me, I read the bible cover to cover...couldn't stop.

I trust in Yahweh God, His plan. I truly believe both will be saved. Both go to hades upon death (not believing in Christ revealed in scripture), but both will repent and believe when the gospel is preached to them in their "heightened intellectual state where their free will isn't clouded by delusion of any sort."

So if your family isn't wicked, its 100% certain they will jump at the opportunity that is exclusively in Jesus, and believe in Him as LORD. Then they too, after this judgment, will eagerly wait for Christ's second coming to save them from Hades, raise them up from the dead with the Church:

26 or else he must have suffered often since the foundation of the world. But now once at the end of the ages, he has been revealed to put away sin by the sacrifice of himself.
27 Inasmuch as it is appointed for men to die once, and after this, judgment,
28 so Christ also, having been offered once to bear the sins of many, will appear a second time, without sin, to those who are eagerly waiting for him for salvation. (Heb. 9:26-28 RPTE)

For to this end the Good News was preached even to the dead, that they might be judged indeed as men in the flesh, but live as to God in the spirit. (1 Pet. 4:6 RPTE)

Although in Hades, when they repent and "live according to God" (the gospel of Christ) they are enveloped by the Holy Spirit, "quickened" as though given "water", refreshed and in a state of relaxation just as the redeemed are in Abraham's bosom. But they can't leave Hades until the rapture/resurrection of the church at Christ's coming:

13 But we do not want you to be ignorant, brothers, concerning those who have fallen asleep, so that you do not grieve like the rest, who have no hope.
14 For if we believe that Jesus died and rose again, even so God will bring with him those who have fallen asleep in Jesus.
15 For this we tell you by the word of the Lord, that we who are alive, who are left to the coming of the Lord, will in no way precede those who have fallen asleep.
16 For the Lord himself will descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of the archangel, and with God's trumpet. The dead in Christ will rise first,
17 then we who are alive, who are left, will be caught up together with them in the clouds, to meet the Lord in the air. So we will be with the Lord forever.
18 Therefore comfort one another with these words. (1 Thess. 4:13-5:1 RPTE)

So my advice to you is "trust God", if they aren't wicked they will repent and believe and you will see them in God's Kingdom. Meanwhile I do pray God open their eyes before they die so they can be gathered to Abraham and Lazarus in Paradise, and avoid Hades entirely.

One last apologetic point. We both know God is "all knowing", Infinite in intellectual capacity. Why or HOW could such a infinitely smart Person leave the salvation of the human race, to the Christian church? To incompetent bumbling fools? He wouldn't. His Plan is perfect, everyone righteous will be saved, everyone wicked will be lost, and those guilty of eternal sins will suffer eternally. Perfect.

In fact, when Paul got a glimpse of God's mercy with those Israelites who died "enemies of the gospel", he broke out in praise:

26 and so all Israel will be saved. Even as it is written,"There will come out of Zion the Deliverer,and he will turn away ungodliness from Jacob.
27 This is my covenant to them,when I will take away their sins."
28 Concerning the Good News, they are enemies for your sake. But concerning the election, they are beloved for the fathers' sake.
29 For the gifts and the calling of God are irrevocable.
30 For as you in time past were disobedient to God, but now have obtained mercy by their disobedience,
31 even so these also have now been disobedient, that by the mercy shown to you they may also obtain mercy.
32 For God has shut up all to disobedience, that he might have mercy on all.
33 Oh the depth of the riches both of the wisdom and the knowledge of God! How unsearchable are his judgments, and his ways past tracing out!
34 "For who has known the mind of the Lord?Or who has been his counselor?"
35 "Or who has first given to him,and it will be repaid to him again?"
36 For of him, and through him, and to him, are all things. To him be the glory for ever! Amen. (Rom. 11:26-36 RPTE)

I appreciate your kind and comforting words, but to be honest, there's no repentance in Hades, that's wishful thinking akin to the false teaching of purgatory. In terms of salvation, until the Mark of the Beast, death is the absolute dividing line, down in Hades Jesus opens the door to the saved and shuts it to the unsaved, His judgement is His verdict, already determined upon death and irreversible, no cross examination or deliberation. You've probably heard this hypergrace message from some preachers that God's grace is boundless, you can repent in your deathbed confession like the thief on the cross and get saved, don't you think that sounds fishy? If so, how much more ridiculous would it be that you can even repent beyond death and still get saved? You can't think of salvation as an insurance policy or a one way ticket to heaven, you know.

"I am He who lives, and was dead, and behold, I am alive forevermore. Amen. And I have the keys of Hades and of Death." (Rev. 1:18)
"These things says He who is holy, He who is true, “He who has the key of David, He who opens and no one shuts, and shuts and no one opens." (Rev. 3:7)

 

[Alfred Persson]

I appreciate your kind and comforting words, but to be honest, there's no repentance in Hades, that's wishful thinking akin to the false teaching of purgatory. In terms of salvation, until the Mark of the Beast, death is the absolute dividing line, down in Hades Jesus opens the door to the saved and shuts it to the unsaved, His judgement is His verdict, already determined upon death and irreversible, no cross examination or deliberation. You've probably heard this hypergrace message from some preachers that God's grace is boundless, you can repent in your deathbed confession like the thief on the cross and get saved, don't you think that sounds fishy? If so, how much more ridiculous would it be that you can even repent beyond death and still get saved? You can't think of salvation as an insurance policy or a one way ticket to heaven, you know.

"I am He who lives, and was dead, and behold, I am alive forevermore. Amen. And I have the keys of Hades and of Death." (Rev. 1:18)
"These things says He who is holy, He who is true, “He who has the key of David, He who opens and no one shuts, and shuts and no one opens." (Rev. 3:7)

If you don't believe the scripture, then you won't believe me. Repentance in Hades, Redemption from Hades, is clearly taught in both the OT and NT:

Survey of Scriptures where Postmortem Opportunity for Salvation may be taught:

Dt. 32:39 [#A]; 1Sam. 2:6 [#B]; 2Sam. 22:5-7 [#C]; Ps. 16:10-11 [#D]; Ps. 30:1-4 [#E]; Ps. 40:1-3 [#F]; Ps. 49:12-15 [#G]; Ps. 56:13 [#H]; Ps. 68:18-20 [#I]; Ps. 69:13-18 [#J]; Ps. 71:19-23 [#K]; Ps. 86:13 [#L]; Ps. 102:18-22 [#M]; Ps. 116:1-9 [#N]; Hos. 13:14 [#O]; Jon. 2:1-10 [#P]; Zec. 9:9-11 [#Q]; Mt. 12:30-32[#R]; John 5:28-29[#S]; Rm. 11:25-36[#T]; 1 Pt. 3:18-22[#U]; 1 Pt. 4:6[#V]; 1 Cor. 5:5[#W]; Eph. 4:8-10[#I]; Heb. 9:27-28[#X]; Rev. 20:11-15[#Y];Luke 16:19-31[#Z]; John 3:16-18[#ZA]

Its ironic 1st century Pharisees like Paul the apostle, or fishermen like the apostle Peter, taught this clearly, but those who claim to believe what Christ and His disciples believe, reject it.

 

[Carry_Your_Name]

If you don't believe the scripture, then you won't believe me. Repentance in Hades, Redemption from Hades, is clearly taught in both the OT and NT:

I do believe the scripture, but not your take on it. No one can bear any fruit "worthy of repentance" in Hades.

 

[Alfred Persson]

I do believe the scripture, but not your take on it. No one can bear any fruit "worthy of repentance" in Hades.

Then Christ is wrong. According to Him, one can "get out of jail" by paying the fine. In context, he cites this illustration while discussing divine justice:

"Assuredly, I say to you, you will by no means get out of there till you have paid the last penny. (Matt. 5:26 NKJ)

Christ taught those who "DO GOOD" in the grave will come out to the resurrection of life:

28 "Do not marvel at this; for the hour is coming in which all who are in the graves will hear His voice
29 "and come forth-- those who have done (ποιήσαντες aorist participle) good (18 ἀγαθός agathos), to the resurrection of life, and those who have done evil, to the resurrection of condemnation. (Jn. 5:28-29 NKJ)

Many commentators minimize the subsequent (following) use of the aorist participle. Even such scholars as Robertson and Moulton, who recognize that the participle is not time-bound, resist this category of usage. But there are a number of examples in biblical and extra-biblical Greek where an aorist participle is used to refer to an action occurring after the action of the main verb. In virtually all of these examples, the aorist participle is placed after the main verb in syntactical order.-Porter, S. E. (1999). Idioms of the Greek New Testament (p. 189). JSOT.

But you don't believe Jesus. Peter did:

For this reason the gospel was preached also to those who are dead, that they might be judged according to men in the flesh, but live according to God in the spirit. (1 Pet. 4:6 NKJ)

Not only did Peter say the gospel is also preached to the dead who died mocking Christians (1 Pet. 4:4-6), he describes Christ preaching to the "spirits in prison" when His soul when down into Hades. These "spirits" gave the "answer of a good conscience towards God" in response to His preaching, and that reminded Peter how the church did the same when they heard Christ's preaching, symbolized by baptism:

18 For Christ also suffered once for sins, the just for the unjust, that He might bring us to God, being put to death in the flesh but made alive by the Spirit,
19 by whom also He went and preached to the spirits in prison,
20 who formerly were disobedient, when once the Divine longsuffering waited in the days of Noah, while the ark was being prepared, in which a few, that is, eight souls, were saved through water.
21 There is also an antitype which now saves us-- baptism (not the removal of the filth of the flesh, but the answer of a good conscience toward God), through the resurrection of Jesus Christ,
22 who has gone into heaven and is at the right hand of God, angels and authorities and powers having been made subject to Him. (1 Pet. 3:18-22 NKJ)

But all that clear teaching of Scripture means nothing to you. That is sad. Its so much better to believe the truth of God and not fear God will toss good people into the lake of fire just because they didn't get it right while alive.

While I'm certain you give people "second chances" all the time, and would consider it "mean" if anyone doesn't do it also, you suppose God would never give anyone a second chance, and yet you claim He loves humans! Nothing you teach would indicate that.

 

[Carry_Your_Name]

Then Christ is wrong. According to Him, one can "get out of jail" by paying the fine. In context, he cites this illustration while discussing divine justice:

Christ is not wrong, you are. You can get out of jail by paying the fine, but you can't get out of Hades without Jesus opening the door, for he alone holds the key. Besides, it was an analogy. The kingdom of heaven was compared with a wheat field and a drag net in his parables in Matt. 13, is the kingdom of heaven literally a wheat field or a drag net?

Not only did Peter say the gospel is also preached to the dead who died mocking Christians (1 Pet. 4:4-6), he describes Christ preaching to the "spirits in prison" when His soul when down into Hades. These "spirits" gave the "answer of a good conscience towards God" in response to His preaching, and that reminded Peter how the church did the same when they heard Christ's preaching, symbolized by baptism:

If one can't get it right while alive, what makes you think they'll get it right when they're dead? Isn't God the God of the living, not the dead?

But all that clear teaching of Scripture means nothing to you. That is sad. Its so much better to believe the truth of God and not fear God will toss good people into the lake of fire just because they didn't get it right while alive.

As clear as those teachings from Revelation means nothing to you. "Tossing good people into the lake of fire" is atheist fearmongering propaganda, everybody ends up in the Lake of Fire goes there voluntarily by their own choice.

 

[Alfred Persson]

Christ is not wrong, you are. You can get out of jail by paying the fine, but you can't get out of Hades without Jesus opening the door, for he alone holds the key. Besides, it was an analogy. The kingdom of heaven was compared with a wheat field and a drag net in his parables in Matt. 13, is the kingdom of heaven literally a wheat field or a drag net?

If one can't get it right while alive, what makes you think they'll get it right when they're dead? Isn't God the God of the living, not the dead?

As clear as those teachings from Revelation means nothing to you. "Tossing good people into the lake of fire" is atheist fearmongering propaganda, everybody ends up in the Lake of Fire goes there voluntarily by their own choice.

The fundamental flaw in your interpretation, everything must fit what seems right to you.

"If one can't get it right while alive"...blah blah.

The scripture reveals the gospel is preached ALSO to the dead...but that contadicts your theories about people getting it right...so you reject scripture.

The hubris. The self delusion. You never were dead, how do you know what they can do? But your opinion is the only thing you heed. Not Scripture.

That's why we can't agree. I show you a verse that says "the gospel is preached to the dead" and you reply "why would anyone do that?.

24 "Most assuredly, I say to you, he who hears My word and believes in Him who sent Me has everlasting life, and shall not come into judgment, but has passed from death into life.
25 "Most assuredly, I say to you, the hour is coming, and now is, when the dead will hear the voice of the Son of God; and those who hear will live.
26 "For as the Father has life in Himself, so He has granted the Son to have life in Himself, (Jn. 5:24-26 NKJ)

We are done. Peace.

 

[Carry_Your_Name]

The fundamental flaw in your interpretation, everything must fit what seems right to you.

"If one can't get it right while alive"...blah blah.

Then such must be a flaw in Jesus's teaching, following the same logic that seems right to Him:

"If I have told you earthly things and you do not believe, how will you believe if I tell you heavenly things?" (Jn. 3:12)
"He who is faithful in what is least is faithful also in much; and he who is unjust in what is least is unjust also in much." (Lk. 16:10)

The scripture reveals the gospel is preached ALSO to the dead...but that contadicts your theories about people getting it right...so you reject scripture.

The hubris. The self delusion. You never were dead, how do you know what they can do? But your opinion is the only thing you heed. Not Scripture.

Gospel is not preached to the dead for repentence or conversion, but for judgement. "He who is unjust, let him be unjust still; he who is filthy, let him be filthy still; he who is righteous, let him be righteous still; he who is holy, let him be holy still." (Rev. 22:11) Your opinion reeks of Catholic purgatory teaching.

That's why we can't agree. I show you a verse that says "the gospel is preached to the dead" and you reply "why would anyone do that?.

To set the captive free, those who're already in Abraham's bosom.

We are done. Peace.

Alright, adieu.