How does God Judge those who never heard the gospel of Christ?

[Alfred Persson]

As belief or non-belief in Christ are the only grounds for salvation or condemnation (Matthew 21:42; Mark 12:10; John 3:16-18; 5:24; 14:6; 20:31; Acts 4:11-12; Rom. 10:9; 1 Tim. 2:5-6; 1 Peter 2:6-8; 1 John 5:11-12), how does God judge those who never heard of Christ or heard disinformation about Him?

 

[Hopeful 2]

As belief or non-belief in Christ are the only grounds for salvation or condemnation (Matthew 21:42; Mark 12:10; John 3:16-18; 5:24; 14:6; 20:31; Acts 4:11-12; Rom. 10:9; 1 Tim. 2:5-6; 1 Peter 2:6-8; 1 John 5:11-12), how does God judge those who never heard of Christ or heard disinformation about Him?

Conscience.
It is written..." (For not the hearers of the law are just before God, but the doers of the law shall be justified.
14 For when the Gentiles, which have not the law, do by nature the things contained in the law, these, having not the law, are a law unto themselves:
15 Which shew the work of the law written in their hearts, their conscience also bearing witness, and their thoughts the mean while accusing or else excusing one another;)" (Rom 2:13-15)

 

[Alfred Persson]

Conscience.
It is written..." (For not the hearers of the law are just before God, but the doers of the law shall be justified.
14 For when the Gentiles, which have not the law, do by nature the things contained in the law, these, having not the law, are a law unto themselves:
15 Which shew the work of the law written in their hearts, their conscience also bearing witness, and their thoughts the mean while accusing or else excusing one another;)" (Rom 2:13-15)

That only applies to "hearers of the law", whether they are doers or not. Which Gentiles ever fulfilled the law "according to their conscience." Can you name them? I can't.

Which idolatrous demon worshiping Gentile fulfilled the law according to their conscience? Remember, if they didn't do ALL the law, broke only some of it, they failed:

10 For whoever shall keep the whole law, and yet stumble in one point, he is guilty of all. (Jas. 2:10 NKJ)

Therefore, if "law = conscience", then violating one's conscience even once makes the sinner "guilty of all"

On judgment Day our conscience will find lots of things to accuse us of, and hardly nothing that excuses us. Our conscience will not declare us righteous. Everyone would fail that Judgment.

Everyone is saved by Grace through faith in Jesus' name.

John 3:16-18 doesn't mention conscience...only belief in Christ saves, disbelief condemns. Nothing said about consience at all.

Acts 4:12 also rules out being saved "in the name of one's conscience".

 

[Hopeful 2]

That only applies to "hearers of the law", whether they are doers or not. Which Gentiles ever fulfilled the law "according to their conscience." Can you name them? I can't.

In verse 14, Paul mentions those who do.
I am sure he is only making a point about the ineffectiveness of claiming Law keeping saves folks.
I don't feel that anyone "outside" of Jesus can keep a clean conscience.
I am glad to be "in Him " !

I thought everyone is saved by Grace through faith in Jesus' name.

That is indeed the root cause, but there is more to it than that.

John 3:16-18 doesn't mention conscience...only belief in Christ saves, disbelief condemns. Nothing said about consience at all.

Jesus and Paul had different agendas for their quotations.

Acts 4:12 also rules out being saved "in the name of one's conscience".

Paul's Rom 2 citings were just to show that claiming to have the Law did not equate to salvation.
He went on from that point to show that even those without the Law could be saved.
Abraham, for instance was a Lawless Gentile when he, by faith, manifested his faith.

That only applies to "hearers of the law", whether they are doers or not. Which Gentiles ever fulfilled the law "according to their conscience." Can you name them? I can't.

Enoch for sure, and Elijah too !
And probably John the baptist, though post-Law's inception.
Cornelius seems like a likely candidate too.

I thought everyone is saved by Grace through faith in Jesus' name.

That is part of it.
There is still the "endures to the end" portion.

 

[Alfred Persson]

In verse 14, Paul mentions those who do.
I am sure he is only making a point about the ineffectiveness of claiming Law keeping saves folks.
I don't feel that anyone "outside" of Jesus can keep a clean conscience.
I am glad to be "in Him " !

That is indeed the root cause, but there is more to it than that.

Jesus and Paul had different agendas for their quotations.

Paul's Rom 2 citings were just to show that claiming to have the Law did not equate to salvation.
He went on from that point to show that even those without the Law could be saved.
Abraham, for instance was a Lawless Gentile when he, by faith, manifested his faith.

Enoch for sure, and Elijah too !
And probably John the baptist, though post-Law's inception.
Cornelius seems like a likely candidate too.

That is part of it.
There is still the "endures to the end" portion.

I never heard a Christian argue the Bible's teachings can contradict each other depending on who is speaking. What denomination's "confession" lists that as a "belief."

John 3:16-18 is very explicit:

16 "For God so loved the world that He gave His only begotten Son, that whoever believes in Him should not perish but have everlasting life.
17 "For God did not send His Son into the world to condemn the world, but that the world through Him might be saved.
18 "He who believes in Him is not condemned; but he who does not believe is condemned already, because he has not believed in the name of the only begotten Son of God. (Jn. 3:16-18 NKJ)

The only grounds for being saved, or condemned...is belief or nonbelief in Christ.

I propose God so loved the world He not only gave His only begotten Son, He made sure everyone born since the foundation of this world, would hear about Him. But no one here agrees with me so I ask everyone here, how do you resolve the dilemma?

 

[Free]

As belief or non-belief in Christ are the only grounds for salvation or condemnation (Matthew 21:42; Mark 12:10; John 3:16-18; 5:24; 14:6; 20:31; Acts 4:11-12; Rom. 10:9; 1 Tim. 2:5-6; 1 Peter 2:6-8; 1 John 5:11-12), how does God judge those who never heard of Christ or heard disinformation about Him?

Luk 12:45 But if that servant says to himself, ‘My master is delayed in coming,’ and begins to beat the male and female servants, and to eat and drink and get drunk,
Luk 12:46 the master of that servant will come on a day when he does not expect him and at an hour he does not know, and will cut him in pieces and put him with the unfaithful.
Luk 12:47 And that servant who knew his master's will but did not get ready or act according to his will, will receive a severe beating.
Luk 12:48 But the one who did not know, and did what deserved a beating, will receive a light beating. Everyone to whom much was given, of him much will be required, and from him to whom they entrusted much, they will demand the more. (ESV)

Joh 3:18 Whoever believes in him is not condemned, but whoever does not believe is condemned already, because he has not believed in the name of the only Son of God.
Joh 3:19 And this is the judgment: the light has come into the world, and people loved the darkness rather than the light because their works were evil.
Joh 3:20 For everyone who does wicked things hates the light and does not come to the light, lest his works should be exposed. (ESV)

Rom 1:18 For the wrath of God is revealed from heaven against all ungodliness and unrighteousness of men, who by their unrighteousness suppress the truth.
Rom 1:19 For what can be known about God is plain to them, because God has shown it to them.
Rom 1:20 For his invisible attributes, namely, his eternal power and divine nature, have been clearly perceived, ever since the creation of the world, in the things that have been made. So they are without excuse.
Rom 1:21 For although they knew God, they did not honor him as God or give thanks to him, but they became futile in their thinking, and their foolish hearts were darkened. (ESV)

Eph 2:1 And you were dead in the trespasses and sins
Eph 2:2 in which you once walked, following the course of this world, following the prince of the power of the air, the spirit that is now at work in the sons of disobedience—
Eph 2:3 among whom we all once lived in the passions of our flesh, carrying out the desires of the body and the mind, and were by nature children of wrath, like the rest of mankind. (ESV)

Heb 9:27 And just as it is appointed for man to die once, and after that comes judgment, (ESV)

It seems pretty straightforward. By nature, people are destined for God's wrath. The only thing that saves is putting one's faith in Christ before they die or before Christ returns. It is likely he will judge based on obedience to the amount of knowledge revealed. Regardless of what God does in the end, he will be perfectly just in what he does.

 

[Alfred Persson]

Luk 12:45 But if that servant says to himself, ‘My master is delayed in coming,’ and begins to beat the male and female servants, and to eat and drink and get drunk,
Luk 12:46 the master of that servant will come on a day when he does not expect him and at an hour he does not know, and will cut him in pieces and put him with the unfaithful.
Luk 12:47 And that servant who knew his master's will but did not get ready or act according to his will, will receive a severe beating.
Luk 12:48 But the one who did not know, and did what deserved a beating, will receive a light beating. Everyone to whom much was given, of him much will be required, and from him to whom they entrusted much, they will demand the more. (ESV)

Joh 3:18 Whoever believes in him is not condemned, but whoever does not believe is condemned already, because he has not believed in the name of the only Son of God.
Joh 3:19 And this is the judgment: the light has come into the world, and people loved the darkness rather than the light because their works were evil.
Joh 3:20 For everyone who does wicked things hates the light and does not come to the light, lest his works should be exposed. (ESV)

Rom 1:18 For the wrath of God is revealed from heaven against all ungodliness and unrighteousness of men, who by their unrighteousness suppress the truth.
Rom 1:19 For what can be known about God is plain to them, because God has shown it to them.
Rom 1:20 For his invisible attributes, namely, his eternal power and divine nature, have been clearly perceived, ever since the creation of the world, in the things that have been made. So they are without excuse.
Rom 1:21 For although they knew God, they did not honor him as God or give thanks to him, but they became futile in their thinking, and their foolish hearts were darkened. (ESV)

Eph 2:1 And you were dead in the trespasses and sins
Eph 2:2 in which you once walked, following the course of this world, following the prince of the power of the air, the spirit that is now at work in the sons of disobedience—
Eph 2:3 among whom we all once lived in the passions of our flesh, carrying out the desires of the body and the mind, and were by nature children of wrath, like the rest of mankind. (ESV)

Heb 9:27 And just as it is appointed for man to die once, and after that comes judgment, (ESV)

It seems pretty straightforward. By nature, people are destined for God's wrath. The only thing that saves is putting one's faith in Christ before they die or before Christ returns. It is likely he will judge based on obedience to the amount of knowledge revealed. Regardless of what God does in the end, he will be perfectly just in what he does.

So how does God judge those who never heard about Christ, to put their faith in Him? They have zero knowledge.

If "faith in Christ" is replaced by "obedience to the amount of knowledge revealed", then zero knowledge is bliss. The wicked who had zero knowledge of Christ, are saved!

 

[Free]

So how does God judge those who never heard about Christ, to put their faith in Him? They have zero knowledge.

It's all in the passages I quoted.

If "faith in Christ" is replaced by "obedience to the amount of knowledge revealed", then zero knowledge is bliss. The wicked who had zero knowledge of Christ, are saved!

No, I'm not sure how you came to that conclusion. Read the passage I gave from Luke.

 

[Alfred Persson]

It's all in the passages I quoted.


No, I'm not sure how you came to that conclusion. Read the passage I gave from Luke.

Last first: I used your formula. It replaced believing in Christ with believing in revealed knowledge. If a wicked person is completely ignorant of Christ, nothing was revealed and therefore he can't be condemned for disobedience.

None of the verses you quoted explain how people "know the master's will" when no one told it to them.

 

[Free]

Last first: I used your formula. It replaced believing in Christ with believing in revealed knowledge.

Where did my "formula" do such a thing?

None of the verses you quoted explain how people "know the master's will" when no one told it to them.

I know. That wasn't my point. I bolded parts of the verses for a reason, but I'll underline for some additional emphasis:

Luk 12:47 And that servant who knew his master's will but did not get ready or act according to his will, will receive a severe beating.
Luk 12:48 But the one who did not know, and did what deserved a beating, will receive a light beating. Everyone to whom much was given, of him much will be required, and from him to whom they entrusted much, they will demand the more. (ESV)

 

[Fastfredy0]

How does God Judge those who never heard the gospel of Christ?​

They go to hell.

So how does God judge those who never heard about Christ, to put their faith in Him? They have zero knowledge.

If "faith in Christ" is replaced by "obedience to the amount of knowledge revealed", then zero knowledge is bliss. The wicked who had zero knowledge of Christ, are saved!

Romans 1 says "they are without excuse". (To keep things simple I'll exclude the "age of accountability" debate. So, someone the is born death, blind and with no brain function may be another matter; but, those observing the world around them per Romans 1 would would go to hell even though they never heard of Christ)

Knowledge of Christ is the only means by which one can be saved; called the “sufficiency of Christ”

To Free list of verses I would add:

• Matthew 11:27b and no one fully knows and accurately understands the Son except the Father; and no one fully knows and accurately understands the Father except the Son, and anyone to whom the Son [deliberately] wills to reveal Him.
• John 1:11-12
• John 3:36 Whoever believes in the Son has eternal life; whoever does not obey the Son shall not see life, but the wrath of God remains on him.
• John 5:23 so that all will give honor (reverence, homage) to the Son just as they give honor to the Father. [In fact] the one who does not honor the Son does not honor the Father who has sent Him.
• John 6:44 No one can come to Me unless the Father who sent Me draws him [giving him the desire to come to Me]; and I will raise him up [from the dead] on the last day.
• John 14:5 Thomas said to Him, “Lord, we do not know where You are going; so how can we know the way?” 6 Jesus said to him, “I am the [only] Way [to God] and the [real] Truth and the [real] Life; no one comes to the Father but through Me.
• John 12:48 Whoever rejects Me and refuses to accept My teachings, has one who judges him; the very word that I spoke will judge and condemn him on the last day.
• John 17:3 And this is eternal life, that they know you the only true God, and Jesus Christ whom you have sent.
• Acts 4:12 And there is salvation in no one else; for there is no other name under heaven that has been given among people by which we must be saved [for God has provided the world no alternative for salvation].”
• Acts 26:17 [choosing you for Myself and] rescuing you from the Jewish people and from the Gentiles, to whom I am sending you, 18 to open their [spiritual] eyes so that they may turn from darkness to light and from the power of Satan to God, that they may receive forgiveness and release from their sins and an inheritance among those who have been sanctified (set apart, made holy) by faith in Me.’
• Romans 3:10 As it is written and forever remains written, “There is none righteous [none that meets God’s standard], not even one.11 “There is none who understands, There is none who seeks for God. 12 “All have turned aside, together they have become useless; There is none who does good, no, not one.”
• Romans 3:21 But now the righteousness of God has been clearly revealed [independently and completely] apart from the Law, though it is [actually] confirmed by the Law and the [words and writings of the] Prophets. 22 This righteousness of God comes through faith in Jesus Christ for all those [Jew or Gentile] who believe [and trust in Him and acknowledge Him as God’s Son]. There is no distinction, 23 since all have sinned and continually fall short of the glory of God, 24 and are being justified [declared free of the guilt of sin, made acceptable to God, and granted eternal life] as a gift by His [precious, undeserved] grace, through the redemption [the payment for our sin] which is [provided] in Christ Jesus,
• Roman 10:1 Brothers and sisters, my heart’s desire and my prayer to God for Israel is for their salvation. 2 For I testify about them that they have a certain enthusiasm for God, but not in accordance with [correct and vital] knowledge [about Him and His purposes]. 3 For not knowing about God’s righteousness [which is based on faith], and seeking to establish their own [righteousness based on works], they did not submit to God’s righteousness. 4 For Christ is the end of the law [it leads to Him and its purpose is fulfilled in Him], for [granting] righteousness to everyone who believes [in Him as Savior]. AMP
• Romans 10:13 For “whoever calls on the name of the Lord [in prayer] will be saved.” 14 But how will people call on Him in whom they have not believed? And how will they believe in Him of whom they have not heard? And how will they hear without a preacher (messenger)? 15 And how will they preach unless they are commissioned and sent [for that purpose]? Just as it is written and forever remains written, “How beautiful are the feet of those who bring good news of good things!”
• 1 Corinthians 6:22 If anyone has no love for the Lord, let him be accursed. Our Lord, come!
• 2 Corinthians 3:14 But their minds were hardened. For to this day, when they read the old covenant, that same veil remains unlifted, because only through Christ is it taken away.
• Ephesians 2:12 remember that at that time you were separated from Christ [excluded from any relationship with Him], alienated from the commonwealth of Israel, and strangers to the covenants of promise [with no share in the sacred Messianic promise and without knowledge of God’s agreements], having no hope [in His promise] and [living] in the world without God.
• Philippians 3:4-9
• 1 John 2:23 No one who denies the Son has the Father. Whoever confesses the Son has the Father also.
• 2 Thessalonians 1:8-9
• 1 John 3:3 and every spirit that does not confess Jesus [acknowledging that He has come in the flesh, but would deny any of the Son’s true nature] is not of God; this is the spirit of the antichrist, which you have heard is coming, and is now already in the world.
• 1 John 5:12 He who has the Son has life; he who does not have the Son of God does not have life.

Inclusivism depreciates the Trinity. This depreciates the Incarnation, depreciates the work and atonement of Christ, denies the uniqueness of the Bible, denies the necessity of gospel truth, substitutes the same old philosophical junk about the 'universal logos' at work in all religious systems. John MacArthur

 

[Alfred Persson]

Where did my "formula" do such a thing?


I know. That wasn't my point. I bolded parts of the verses for a reason, but I'll underline for some additional emphasis:

Luk 12:47 And that servant who knew his master's will but did not get ready or act according to his will, will receive a severe beating.
Luk 12:48 But the one who did not know, and did what deserved a beating, will receive a light beating. Everyone to whom much was given, of him much will be required, and from him to whom they entrusted much, they will demand the more. (ESV)

(God being just isn't the issue, He certainly is Just but not for any reasons you gave):

Here's the formula. "Judgment based on obeying knowledge received"

It is likely he will judge based on obedience to the amount of knowledge revealed. Regardless of what God does in the end, he will be perfectly just in what he does.

Scripture (John 3:16-18) says salvation or condemnation rests upon belief or non-belief in Jesus. Therefore, according to your formula: if one never received knowledge about Jesus they can't be judged.

As for Luke 12:47-48, is a "light beating" salvation?

Are you saying people who received no knowledge of Christ are beaten lightly but saved? So a light beating could have sufficed to save people, and Christ's death wasn't needed?

Why sacrifice your only begotten Son if you can lightly beat people and save them?

 

[Alfred Persson]

How does God Judge those who never heard the gospel of Christ?​

They go to hell.


Romans 1 says "they are without excuse". (To keep things simple I'll exclude the "age of accountability" debate. So, someone the is born death, blind and with no brain function may be another matter; but, those observing the world around them per Romans 1 would would go to hell even though they never heard of Christ)

Knowledge of Christ is the only means by which one can be saved; called the “sufficiency of Christ”

To Free list of verses I would add:

• Matthew 11:27b and no one fully knows and accurately understands the Son except the Father; and no one fully knows and accurately understands the Father except the Son, and anyone to whom the Son [deliberately] wills to reveal Him.
• John 1:11-12
• 
  
• John 3:36 Whoever believes in the Son has eternal life; whoever does not obey the Son shall not see life, but the wrath of God remains on him.
• John 5:23 so that all will give honor (reverence, homage) to the Son just as they give honor to the Father. [In fact] the one who does not honor the Son does not honor the Father who has sent Him.
• John 6:44 No one can come to Me unless the Father who sent Me draws him [giving him the desire to come to Me]; and I will raise him up [from the dead] on the last day.
• John 14:5 Thomas said to Him, “Lord, we do not know where You are going; so how can we know the way?” 6 Jesus said to him, “I am the [only] Way [to God] and the [real] Truth and the [real] Life; no one comes to the Father but through Me.
• John 12:48 Whoever rejects Me and refuses to accept My teachings, has one who judges him; the very word that I spoke will judge and condemn him on the last day.
• John 17:3 And this is eternal life, that they know you the only true God, and Jesus Christ whom you have sent.
• Acts 4:12 And there is salvation in no one else; for there is no other name under heaven that has been given among people by which we must be saved [for God has provided the world no alternative for salvation].”
• Acts 26:17 [choosing you for Myself and] rescuing you from the Jewish people and from the Gentiles, to whom I am sending you, 18 to open their [spiritual] eyes so that they may turn from darkness to light and from the power of Satan to God, that they may receive forgiveness and release from their sins and an inheritance among those who have been sanctified (set apart, made holy) by faith in Me.’
• Romans 3:10 As it is written and forever remains written, “There is none righteous [none that meets God’s standard], not even one.11 “There is none who understands, There is none who seeks for God. 12 “All have turned aside, together they have become useless; There is none who does good, no, not one.”
• Romans 3:21 But now the righteousness of God has been clearly revealed [independently and completely] apart from the Law, though it is [actually] confirmed by the Law and the [words and writings of the] Prophets. 22 This righteousness of God comes through faith in Jesus Christ for all those [Jew or Gentile] who believe [and trust in Him and acknowledge Him as God’s Son]. There is no distinction, 23 since all have sinned and continually fall short of the glory of God, 24 and are being justified [declared free of the guilt of sin, made acceptable to God, and granted eternal life] as a gift by His [precious, undeserved] grace, through the redemption [the payment for our sin] which is [provided] in Christ Jesus,
• Roman 10:1 Brothers and sisters, my heart’s desire and my prayer to God for Israel is for their salvation. 2 For I testify about them that they have a certain enthusiasm for God, but not in accordance with [correct and vital] knowledge [about Him and His purposes]. 3 For not knowing about God’s righteousness [which is based on faith], and seeking to establish their own [righteousness based on works], they did not submit to God’s righteousness. 4 For Christ is the end of the law [it leads to Him and its purpose is fulfilled in Him], for [granting] righteousness to everyone who believes [in Him as Savior]. AMP
• Romans 10:13 For “whoever calls on the name of the Lord [in prayer] will be saved.” 14 But how will people call on Him in whom they have not believed? And how will they believe in Him of whom they have not heard? And how will they hear without a preacher (messenger)? 15 And how will they preach unless they are commissioned and sent [for that purpose]? Just as it is written and forever remains written, “How beautiful are the feet of those who bring good news of good things!”
• 1 Corinthians 6:22 If anyone has no love for the Lord, let him be accursed. Our Lord, come!
• 2 Corinthians 3:14 But their minds were hardened. For to this day, when they read the old covenant, that same veil remains unlifted, because only through Christ is it taken away.
• Ephesians 2:12 remember that at that time you were separated from Christ [excluded from any relationship with Him], alienated from the commonwealth of Israel, and strangers to the covenants of promise [with no share in the sacred Messianic promise and without knowledge of God’s agreements], having no hope [in His promise] and [living] in the world without God.
• Philippians 3:4-9
• 1 John 2:23 No one who denies the Son has the Father. Whoever confesses the Son has the Father also.
• 2 Thessalonians 1:8-9
• 1 John 3:3 and every spirit that does not confess Jesus [acknowledging that He has come in the flesh, but would deny any of the Son’s true nature] is not of God; this is the spirit of the antichrist, which you have heard is coming, and is now already in the world.
• 1 John 5:12 He who has the Son has life; he who does not have the Son of God does not have life.

Inclusivism depreciates the Trinity. This depreciates the Incarnation, depreciates the work and atonement of Christ, denies the uniqueness of the Bible, denies the necessity of gospel truth, substitutes the same old philosophical junk about the 'universal logos' at work in all religious systems. John MacArthur

Last first. Salvation is Exclusively in Jesus. I NEVER suggested otherwise. In fact, my argument the Gospel must be preached to the dead (1 Pet. 4:6) springs from Exclusivism. God must judge the world and He can only do that when people accept or reject Christ, period. Nothing else counts, not works, not knowledge, not pedigree, "no other name" will save.

It was refreshing you say "they go to hell". Direct, to the point. Ignorance is no excuse, even God imposed ignorance.

But then you suggest inclusivism for "age of accountablity" or born brain dead. Why? What difference is someone born brain dead (so they don't know Jesus) than those who died Before Christ? Neither knew Jesus, both are equal so both should go to hell.

Inclusivism for ANY reason contradicts the clear teaching of Scripture and therefore you haven't answered "how can God judge the World?" "Judge those born brain dead". "Judge all younger than the age of accountability?"

They should all go to hell too, if you are consistent, "exclusive".

"Nor is there salvation in any other, for there is no other name under heaven given among men by which we must be saved." (Acts 4:12 NKJ)

No salvation "in the name of brain death" or you profess inclusivism and "they don't all go to hell".

 

[Hopeful 2]

I never heard a Christian argue the Bible's teachings can contradict each other depending on who is speaking.

Please show which teaching you refer to. And who are the two speakers ?

What denomination's "confession" lists that as a "belief."

I have no idea.

John 3:16-18 is very explicit:
16 "For God so loved the world that He gave His only begotten Son, that whoever believes in Him should not perish but have everlasting life.
17 "For God did not send His Son into the world to condemn the world, but that the world through Him might be saved.
18 "He who believes in Him is not condemned; but he who does not believe is condemned already, because he has not believed in the name of the only begotten Son of God. (Jn. 3:16-18 NKJ)
The only grounds for being saved, or condemned...is belief or nonbelief in Christ.

That teaching by Jesus was not all inclusive.
It doesn't mention the requirement for repentance from sin or baptism to wash them away.
And it doesn't mention adhering to the faith until the end.
And it made no mention of the need for rebirth.
I do, however, believe all who really believe will actually turn from all sin, and be baptized in the name of Jesus Christ for the remission of past sins, be reborn of God's seed, and will endure until the end.

I propose God so loved the world He not only gave His only begotten Son, He made sure everyone born since the foundation of this world, would hear about Him. But no one here agrees with me so I ask everyone here, how do you resolve the dilemma?

I agree with that.
They may never have heard the name "Jesus", but all know there is a God who demands obedience/love.
No dilemma here.

 

[Free]

(God being just isn't the issue, He certainly is Just but not for any reasons you gave):

Did I give reasons for God being just?

Here's the formula. "Judgment based on obeying knowledge received"

It is likely he will judge based on obedience to the amount of knowledge revealed. Regardless of what God does in the end, he will be perfectly just in what he does.

Scripture (John 3:16-18) says salvation or condemnation rests upon belief or non-belief in Jesus. Therefore, according to your formula: if one never received knowledge about Jesus they can't be judged.

As for Luke 12:47-48, is a "light beating" salvation?

Are you saying people who received no knowledge of Christ are beaten lightly but saved? So a light beating could have sufficed to save people, and Christ's death wasn't needed?

Why sacrifice your only begotten Son if you can lightly beat people and save them?

You're clearly not at all following what I am saying. I have not said that those who don't believe in Christ will be saved and only lightly beaten. I do not know how you could come to such a conclusion.

Jesus makes the point in John that if a person doesn't believe in him, then he is condemned. Paul supports this by essentially saying that everyone who does not believe in Christ is a child of wrath. Jesus also tells us in Luke that unbelievers will face different levels of punishment, based on what they knew. (It's the opposite of what Paul tells believers in 1 Cor 3:12-15, that there will be different levels of reward, based on their works.) In Romans 1, Paul lays out the case that no one is without excuse as all should be seeking God based on what they see in creation. The writer of Hebrews tells us that we have one chance, while we're alive, to put our faith in Christ, because after we die, we face judgement.

So, for those who never heard the gospel, that's it. They face judgement and that judgement will determine what punishment they receive. All men are without excuse, although, like Fastfredy0 , I think there will be exceptions based on mental capacity. God is just, and in the end, every single person will know that they got the judgement they deserved.

 

[Alfred Persson]

Did I give reasons for God being just?


You're clearly not at all following what I am saying. I have not said that those who don't believe in Christ will be saved and only lightly beaten. I do not know how you could come to such a conclusion.

Jesus makes the point in John that if a person doesn't believe in him, then he is condemned. Paul supports this by essentially saying that everyone who does not believe in Christ is a child of wrath. Jesus also tells us in Luke that unbelievers will face different levels of punishment, based on what they knew. (It's the opposite of what Paul tells believers in 1 Cor 3:12-15, that there will be different levels of reward, based on their works.) In Romans 1, Paul lays out the case that no one is without excuse as all should be seeking God based on what they see in creation. The writer of Hebrews tells us that we have one chance, while we're alive, to put our faith in Christ, because after we die, we face judgement.

So, for those who never heard the gospel, that's it. They face judgement and that judgement will determine what punishment they receive. All men are without excuse, although, like Fastfredy0 , I think there will be exceptions based on mental capacity. God is just, and in the end, every single person will know that they got the judgement they deserved.

I reject all departures from Exclusivism. Salvation is possible ONLY "through Jesus Christ". Sinners in or out of the law perish when judged. There are no exceptions. But God is just for reasons few realize. Everyone who tried to follow the law or their conscience can be saved "through Jesus Christ":

12 For as many as have sinned without law will also perish without law, and as many as have sinned in the law will be judged by the law
13 (for not the hearers of the law are just in the sight of God, but the doers of the law will be justified;
14 for when Gentiles, who do not have the law, by nature do the things in the law, these, although not having the law, are a law to themselves,
15 who show the work of the law written in their hearts, their conscience also bearing witness, and between themselves their thoughts accusing or else excusing them)
16 in the day when God will judge the secrets of men by Jesus Christ, according to my gospel. (Rom. 2:12-16 NKJ)

Romans 2:16 gives the key many miss. Literally "διὰ Ἰησοῦ χριστοῦ" is "through Jesus Christ".

Look how the phrase is used in the NT:

NKJ Jn. 1:17 For the law was given through Moses, but grace and truth came through Jesus Christ.
NKJ Acts 10:36 "The word which God sent to the children of Israel, preaching peace through Jesus Christ-- He is Lord of all--
NKJ Rom. 1:8 First, I thank my God through Jesus Christ for you all, that your faith is spoken of throughout the whole world.
NKJ Rom. 2:16 in the day when God will judge the secrets of men by Jesus Christ, according to my gospel.
NKJ Rom. 5:21 so that as sin reigned in death, even so grace might reign through righteousness to eternal life through Jesus Christ our Lord.
NKJ Rom. 7:25 I thank God-- through Jesus Christ our Lord! So then, with the mind I myself serve the law of God, but with the flesh the law of sin.
NKJ Rom. 16:27 to God, alone wise, be glory through Jesus Christ forever. Amen 1>.
NKJ 2 Cor. 5:18 Now all things are of God, who has reconciled us to Himself through Jesus Christ, and has given us the ministry of reconciliation,
NKJ Gal. 1:1 Paul, an apostle (not from men nor through man, but through Jesus Christ and God the Father who raised Him from the dead),
NKJ Eph. 1:5 having predestined us to adoption as sons by Jesus Christ to Himself, according to the good pleasure of His will,
NKJ Eph. 3:9 and to make all see what is the fellowship of the mystery, which from the beginning of the ages has been hidden in God who created all things through Jesus Christ;
NKJ Phil. 1:11 being filled with the fruits of righteousness which are by Jesus Christ, to the glory and praise of God.
NKJ Tit. 3:6 whom He poured out on us abundantly through Jesus Christ our Savior,
NKJ Heb. 13:21 make you complete in every good work to do His will, working in you what is well pleasing in His sight, through Jesus Christ, to whom be glory forever and ever. Amen.
NKJ 1 Pet. 2:5 you also, as living stones, are being built up a spiritual house, a holy priesthood, to offer up spiritual sacrifices acceptable to God through Jesus Christ.
NKJ 1 Pet. 4:11 If anyone speaks, let him speak as the oracles of God. If anyone ministers, let him do it as with the ability which God supplies, that in all things God may be glorified through Jesus Christ, to whom belong the glory and the dominion forever and ever. Amen.

In other words, Christ's sacrifice bears the sins of these who tried to be righteous. But as is true of everyone, our righteousness isn't enough to be saved. Like us, God has reconciled them "through Jesus Christ" our LORD.

That is how God can judge the World, through Jesus Christ.

No one is judged apart from Christ, His sacrifice is applied to all these who died without Christ:

THAT is what Hebrews 9:22-28 also says, the eternal sacrifice of Christ is applied to everyone born since the foundation of the world and after men die, in the judgment Christ's sacrifice "bears the sin of many" who then repent and believe in His name. THESE eagerly wait for Christ's second coming for salvation:

22 And according to the law almost all things are purified with blood, and without shedding of blood there is no remission.
23 Therefore it was necessary that the copies of the things in the heavens should be purified with these, but the heavenly things themselves with better sacrifices than these.
24 For Christ has not entered the holy places made with hands, which are copies of the true, but into heaven itself, now to appear in the presence of God for us;
25 not that He should offer Himself often, as the high priest enters the Most Holy Place every year with blood of another--
26 He then would have had to suffer often since the foundation of the world; but now, once at the end of the ages, He has appeared to put away sin by the sacrifice of Himself.
27 And as it is appointed for men to die once, but after this the judgment,
28 so Christ was offered once to bear the sins of many. To those who eagerly wait for Him He will appear a second time, apart from sin, for salvation. (Heb. 9:22-28 NKJ)

Salvation of everyone happens EXCLUSIVELY "through Jesus Christ", even the salvation of Adam and Eve and everyone born brain dead, who died before the age of accountability....No one is saved apart from Christ in any other name.

This is why the gospel must also be preached to the dead, so they can be judged according to the judgment all men receive:

For this reason the gospel was preached also to those who are dead, that they might be judged according to men in the flesh, but live according to God in the spirit. (1 Pet. 4:6 NKJ)

God is just, there is no partiality with God. Everyone has an equal shot at being saved regardless their geographical, temporal, or physical circumstances.

This is why God sacrificed His only begotten Son, so the entire Kosmos (entire world of men leaving no one out) can be saved according to the same principle:

14 "And as Moses lifted up the serpent in the wilderness, even so must the Son of Man be lifted up,
15 "that whoever believes in Him should not perish but have eternal life.
16 "For God so loved the world that He gave His only begotten Son, that whoever believes in Him should not perish but have everlasting life.
17 "For God did not send His Son into the world to condemn the world, but that the world through Him might be saved.
18 "He who believes in Him is not condemned; but he who does not believe is condemned already, because he has not believed in the name of the only begotten Son of God.
(Jn. 3:14-18 NKJ)

 

[Fastfredy0]

For this reason the gospel was preached also to those who are dead, that they might be judged according to men in the flesh, but live according to God in the spirit. (1 Pet. 4:6 NKJ)

Some people have incorrectly understood this verse as teaching that after a person dies he or she will have a second chance to believe the gospel. This interpretation clearly contradicts the revelation of Scripture elsewhere that there is no second chance after death (Heb. 9:27).
“Peter does not say that the gospel is being preached even to the dead but was preached.
“These are not all of the dead who shall face the Judge at the last day but those to whom the gospel was preached prior to Peter’s writing (by the gospel preachers mentioned in v. 1, 12 ), who at this writing were already dead. T. Constable
I admit the verse on its own could support your interpretation.

12 For as many as have sinned without law will also perish without law, and as many as have sinned in the law will be judged by the law
13 (for not the hearers of the law are just in the sight of God, but the doers of the law will be justified;
14 for when Gentiles, who do not have the law, by nature do the things in the law, these, although not having the law, are a law to themselves,
15 who show the work of the law written in their hearts, their conscience also bearing witness, and between themselves their thoughts accusing or else excusing them)
16 in the day when God will judge the secrets of men by Jesus Christ, according to my gospel. (Rom. 2:12-16 NKJ)

Nothing here saying those "who show the work of the law written in their hearts" are saved; it says "God will judge".
Scripture also says: Romans 3:20 Therefore by the deeds of the law there shall no flesh be justified in his sight: for by the law is the knowledge of sin.
Thus, without knowledge of Christ they go to hell.

 

[Alfred Persson]

Some people have incorrectly understood this verse as teaching that after a person dies he or she will have a second chance to believe the gospel. This interpretation clearly contradicts the revelation of Scripture elsewhere that there is no second chance after death (Heb. 9:27)..

22 According to the Law, nearly everything is cleansed with blood, and apart from shedding of blood there is no remission.
23 It was necessary therefore that the copies of the things in the heavens should be cleansed with these; but the heavenly things themselves with better sacrifices than these.
24 For Christ hasn't entered into holy places made with hands, which are representations of the true, but into heaven itself, now to appear in the presence of God for us;
25 nor yet that he should offer himself often, as the high priest enters into the holy place year by year with blood not his own,
26 or else he must have suffered often since the foundation of the world. But now once at the end of the ages, he has been revealed to put away sin by the sacrifice of himself.
27 Inasmuch as it is appointed for men to die once, and after this, judgment,
28 so Christ also, having been offered once to bear the sins of many, will appear a second time, without sin, to those who are eagerly waiting for him for salvation. (Heb. 9:22-28 RPTE)

How is the "heavenly" sacrifice of Christ through "the eternal Spirit" (Heb. 9:14) superior to those offered by the Levite Priests, if it only applies to the living?

Why would it be necessary Christ "suffer" often "since the foundation of the world" if His sacrifice does not apply to those who died before His coming?

"Inasmuch" in verse 27 connects the judgment men experience upon death, to the "eternal sacrifice" Christ offered (since the foundation of the world). Why if it only applies to the living after His advent?

How is it those who died and were judged NOW eagerly wait for Christ's second coming, for salvation (Heb. 10:28)?

WHO are they? Not Christians, we are saved "when we believe" before we die.

 

[Free]

I reject all departures from Exclusivism. Salvation is possible ONLY "through Jesus Christ". Sinners in or out of the law perish when judged. There are no exceptions. But God is just for reasons few realize. Everyone who tried to follow the law or their conscience can be saved "through Jesus Christ":

12 For as many as have sinned without law will also perish without law, and as many as have sinned in the law will be judged by the law
13 (for not the hearers of the law are just in the sight of God, but the doers of the law will be justified;
14 for when Gentiles, who do not have the law, by nature do the things in the law, these, although not having the law, are a law to themselves,
15 who show the work of the law written in their hearts, their conscience also bearing witness, and between themselves their thoughts accusing or else excusing them)
16 in the day when God will judge the secrets of men by Jesus Christ, according to my gospel. (Rom. 2:12-16 NKJ)

Romans 2:16 gives the key many miss. Literally "διὰ Ἰησοῦ χριστοῦ" is "through Jesus Christ".

Look how the phrase is used in the NT:

NKJ Jn. 1:17 For the law was given through Moses, but grace and truth came through Jesus Christ.
NKJ Acts 10:36 "The word which God sent to the children of Israel, preaching peace through Jesus Christ-- He is Lord of all--
NKJ Rom. 1:8 First, I thank my God through Jesus Christ for you all, that your faith is spoken of throughout the whole world.
NKJ Rom. 2:16 in the day when God will judge the secrets of men by Jesus Christ, according to my gospel.
NKJ Rom. 5:21 so that as sin reigned in death, even so grace might reign through righteousness to eternal life through Jesus Christ our Lord.
NKJ Rom. 7:25 I thank God-- through Jesus Christ our Lord! So then, with the mind I myself serve the law of God, but with the flesh the law of sin.
NKJ Rom. 16:27 to God, alone wise, be glory through Jesus Christ forever. Amen 1>.
NKJ 2 Cor. 5:18 Now all things are of God, who has reconciled us to Himself through Jesus Christ, and has given us the ministry of reconciliation,
NKJ Gal. 1:1 Paul, an apostle (not from men nor through man, but through Jesus Christ and God the Father who raised Him from the dead),
NKJ Eph. 1:5 having predestined us to adoption as sons by Jesus Christ to Himself, according to the good pleasure of His will,
NKJ Eph. 3:9 and to make all see what is the fellowship of the mystery, which from the beginning of the ages has been hidden in God who created all things through Jesus Christ;
NKJ Phil. 1:11 being filled with the fruits of righteousness which are by Jesus Christ, to the glory and praise of God.
NKJ Tit. 3:6 whom He poured out on us abundantly through Jesus Christ our Savior,
NKJ Heb. 13:21 make you complete in every good work to do His will, working in you what is well pleasing in His sight, through Jesus Christ, to whom be glory forever and ever. Amen.
NKJ 1 Pet. 2:5 you also, as living stones, are being built up a spiritual house, a holy priesthood, to offer up spiritual sacrifices acceptable to God through Jesus Christ.
NKJ 1 Pet. 4:11 If anyone speaks, let him speak as the oracles of God. If anyone ministers, let him do it as with the ability which God supplies, that in all things God may be glorified through Jesus Christ, to whom belong the glory and the dominion forever and ever. Amen.

In other words, Christ's sacrifice bears the sins of these who tried to be righteous. But as is true of everyone, our righteousness isn't enough to be saved. Like us, God has reconciled them "through Jesus Christ" our LORD.

That is how God can judge the World, through Jesus Christ.

No one is judged apart from Christ, His sacrifice is applied to all these who died without Christ:

THAT is what Hebrews 9:22-28 also says, the eternal sacrifice of Christ is applied to everyone born since the foundation of the world and after men die, in the judgment Christ's sacrifice "bears the sin of many" who then repent and believe in His name. THESE eagerly wait for Christ's second coming for salvation:

22 And according to the law almost all things are purified with blood, and without shedding of blood there is no remission.
23 Therefore it was necessary that the copies of the things in the heavens should be purified with these, but the heavenly things themselves with better sacrifices than these.
24 For Christ has not entered the holy places made with hands, which are copies of the true, but into heaven itself, now to appear in the presence of God for us;
25 not that He should offer Himself often, as the high priest enters the Most Holy Place every year with blood of another--
26 He then would have had to suffer often since the foundation of the world; but now, once at the end of the ages, He has appeared to put away sin by the sacrifice of Himself.
27 And as it is appointed for men to die once, but after this the judgment,
28 so Christ was offered once to bear the sins of many. To those who eagerly wait for Him He will appear a second time, apart from sin, for salvation. (Heb. 9:22-28 NKJ)

Salvation of everyone happens EXCLUSIVELY "through Jesus Christ", even the salvation of Adam and Eve and everyone born brain dead, who died before the age of accountability....No one is saved apart from Christ in any other name.

If you think you're refuting my position, then that again shows you're not at all understanding what I've stated. I have never sated anything other than a person can only be saved through Jesus. That is rather the point--we have one chance in this life to accept him because after that comes judgement.

This is why the gospel must also be preached to the dead, so they can be judged according to the judgment all men receive:

For this reason the gospel was preached also to those who are dead, that they might be judged according to men in the flesh, but live according to God in the spirit. (1 Pet. 4:6 NKJ)

That's a misapplication of that verse. Peter is addressing the coming judgement and end of all things and so to be prepared. This verse is likely saying that the dead here are those who were dead at the time, but had the gospel preached to them while they were alive.

God is just, there is no partiality with God. Everyone has an equal shot at being saved regardless their geographical, temporal, or physical circumstances.

This is why God sacrificed His only begotten Son, so the entire Kosmos (entire world of men leaving no one out) can be saved according to the same principle:

14 "And as Moses lifted up the serpent in the wilderness, even so must the Son of Man be lifted up,
15 "that whoever believes in Him should not perish but have eternal life.
16 "For God so loved the world that He gave His only begotten Son, that whoever believes in Him should not perish but have everlasting life.
17 "For God did not send His Son into the world to condemn the world, but that the world through Him might be saved.
18 "He who believes in Him is not condemned; but he who does not believe is condemned already, because he has not believed in the name of the only begotten Son of God.
(Jn. 3:14-18 NKJ)

Rather than presuming, can you provide just one verse that says everyone will have an equal shot at accepting Christ?

 

[Randy]

As belief or non-belief in Christ are the only grounds for salvation or condemnation (Matthew 21:42; Mark 12:10; John 3:16-18; 5:24; 14:6; 20:31; Acts 4:11-12; Rom. 10:9; 1 Tim. 2:5-6; 1 Peter 2:6-8; 1 John 5:11-12), how does God judge those who never heard of Christ or heard disinformation about Him?

They would come before the one who judges, Christ Jesus, and He will make a judgment concerning them. I will add nothing is hidden from Him.

So, as I state they are neither redeemed nor condemned. It's for Jesus to decide. He will know what they knew or didn't know.