How Does Jesus Save Us?

[Mungo]

Romans 6:1-14, talks about how we are baptized into Christ.

Sure Rom 6:3 refers to us being baptised into Christ. But it doesn't say that it happed "When a repentant sinner comes to Christ to be saved by him" as you claimed.
So where does scripture say "When a repentant sinner comes to Christ to be saved by him, God spiritually baptizes him into Christ"?

I also asked you where scripture says "Water baptism is a public profession of one's faith in Christ."?

Where is there anything about the Catholic church in the Bible?

This thread is about "How does Jesus save us?". Your question is just a diversion.

 

[Mungo]

I understand what you're saying and agree! We are not saved by anything we can do, by our works or by our performance. But by His works and performance on the Cross and His Resurrection. Which makes salvation possible.

To look at it another way, when we hear the Gospel of His finished work, and believer it, our salvation in a sense takes place from within.

Rom. 10:9-10
"That if thou shalt confess with thy mouth the Lord Jesus, and shalt believe in thine heart that God hath raised him from the dead, thou shalt be saved.

For with the heart man believeth unto righteousness; and with the mouth confession is made unto salvation."

It is from the heart of belief that salvation takes place. But the work that Christ provided for us is the means by which we receive salvation. Which we have no part in but believing.

Rom 10:9-10 is not the complete plan of salvation. You are just plucking one verse out of scripture and ignoring many others.

Paul also said “Believe on the Lord Jesus, and you will be saved” (Acts 16:31) – no mention of confessing with your mouth.

Jesus said “Whoever believes and is baptized will be saved” – no mention of confessing with your mouth, but mentions the need for baptism.

Paul again “he saved us through the bath of rebirth and renewal by the holy Spirit” – water (baptism) again, but no mention of believing or confessing with our lips.

In Acts 2:21 Peter quotes Joel and it shall be that everyone shall be saved who calls on the name of the Lord.
When the listeners say “What are we to do, my brothers?” (vs 37), Peter doesn’t say “call on the name of the Lord” but “Repent and be baptized, every one of you, in the name of Jesus Christ for the forgiveness of your sins” (vs 38) – so repent and be baptised, no mention of belief.
However this does link calling on the name of the Lord to Baptism

Acts 22:16 also links calling on the name of the Lord to Baptism. Get up and have yourself baptized and your sins washed away, calling upon his name.

Then Paul also says
For by grace you have been saved through faith, and this is not from you; it is the gift of God (Eph 2:8) –again no mention of confessing with your lips. Also we are saved by grace. Grace means free gift. Now isn’t confessing with our lips work (something we do) – earning grace?

So why pick on Rom 10:9 and not one of the other texts?

Also
Is Rom 10:9 referring to the initial justification, or to future?

We must examine the context. What Paul is saying has nothing to do with the initial saving event. Paul is addressing people who are already Christians. They have heard the word, they have believed (1:8) and they have been baptised (6:3-4). So when he gets to 10:9 his words are nothing to do with the initial saving event, but are concerned with their ongoing salvation. They are under persecution and Paul is urging them not to be afraid of confessing that Jesus is Lord.

Do you know that in persecutions you could identify three particular groups. Firstly those who held to the faith, faced martyrdom and survived. These were known as confessors, or confessors of the faith. The second group were those who abjured the faith and sacrificed to the statue of the emperor. They were known as lapsi. The third group, known as libellatici were those who purchased a false certificates saying they had sacrificed to the emperor but had not in fact done so.

 

[Charlie24]

Rom 10:9-10 is not the complete plan of salvation. You are just plucking one verse out of scripture and ignoring many others.

Paul also said “Believe on the Lord Jesus, and you will be saved” (Acts 16:31) – no mention of confessing with your mouth.

Jesus said “Whoever believes and is baptized will be saved” – no mention of confessing with your mouth, but mentions the need for baptism.

Paul again “he saved us through the bath of rebirth and renewal by the holy Spirit” – water (baptism) again, but no mention of believing or confessing with our lips.

In Acts 2:21 Peter quotes Joel and it shall be that everyone shall be saved who calls on the name of the Lord.
When the listeners say “What are we to do, my brothers?” (vs 37), Peter doesn’t say “call on the name of the Lord” but “Repent and be baptized, every one of you, in the name of Jesus Christ for the forgiveness of your sins” (vs 38) – so repent and be baptised, no mention of belief.
However this does link calling on the name of the Lord to Baptism

Acts 22:16 also links calling on the name of the Lord to Baptism. Get up and have yourself baptized and your sins washed away, calling upon his name.

Then Paul also says
For by grace you have been saved through faith, and this is not from you; it is the gift of God (Eph 2:8) –again no mention of confessing with your lips. Also we are saved by grace. Grace means free gift. Now isn’t confessing with our lips work (something we do) – earning grace?

So why pick on Rom 10:9 and not one of the other texts?

Also
Is Rom 10:9 referring to the initial justification, or to future?

We must examine the context. What Paul is saying has nothing to do with the initial saving event. Paul is addressing people who are already Christians. They have heard the word, they have believed (1:8) and they have been baptised (6:3-4). So when he gets to 10:9 his words are nothing to do with the initial saving event, but are concerned with their ongoing salvation. They are under persecution and Paul is urging them not to be afraid of confessing that Jesus is Lord.

Do you know that in persecutions you could identify three particular groups. Firstly those who held to the faith, faced martyrdom and survived. These were known as confessors, or confessors of the faith. The second group were those who abjured the faith and sacrificed to the statue of the emperor. They were known as lapsi. The third group, known as libellatici were those who purchased a false certificates saying they had sacrificed to the emperor but had not in fact done so.

Hello, Mungo!

Where we believers make a serious mistake is when we believe the Gospel that saves us, and then we move on to sanctify ourselves by our own works. This is not acceptable to God!

The same thing that saves us is the same that sanctifies us, faith in the finished work of Christ. This whole thing of living for God is about faith in every aspect.

You should know that our works are not our own, they are in very way His works performed through us, but credited to us at the Judgement Seat of Christ when we stand before Him to see what sort our works really are, will they pass the test of fire.

Unless those works are His doing through us, and not our works we think He desires, they will not pass the test of fire.

You know yourself that water baptism is a work performed by another person on your behalf! You are trusting in the work of man for your salvation. Mungo, you know this is not right! You know there is something terribly wrong with this!

I have done my best to show you that we are save by the Grace of God entirely, no works on our part whatsoever. But you have chosen to ignore it, you don't want to understand it. I have done my part that God has required of me, there is nothing else I can do, until you want to understand.

 

[Mungo]

Hello, Mungo!

Where we believers make a serious mistake is when we believe the Gospel that saves us, and then we move on to sanctify ourselves by our own works. This is not acceptable to God!

The same thing that saves us is the same that sanctifies us, faith in the finished work of Christ. This whole thing of living for God is about faith in every aspect.

You should know that our works are not our own, they are in very way His works performed through us, but credited to us at the Judgement Seat of Christ when we stand before Him to see what sort our works really are, will they pass the test of fire.

Unless those works are His doing through us, and not our works we think He desires, they will not pass the test of fire.

You know yourself that water baptism is a work performed by another person on your behalf! You are trusting in the work of man for your salvation. Mungo, you know this is not right! You know there is something terribly wrong with this!

I have done my best to show you that we are save by the Grace of God entirely, no works on our part whatsoever. But you have chosen to ignore it, you don't want to understand it. I have done my part that God has required of me, there is nothing else I can do, until you want to understand.

Opinions, opinions, opinions and not a single scripture to back them up.

I gave you much scripture and you ignored it all.

What should I believe - your opinions or scripture?
Personally I prefer scripture.

 

[Charlie24]

Hello, Mungo!

Where we believers make a serious mistake is when we believe the Gospel that saves us, and then we move on to sanctify ourselves by our own works. This is not acceptable to God!

The same thing that saves us is the same that sanctifies us, faith in the finished work of Christ. This whole thing of living for God is about faith in every aspect.

You should know that our works are not our own, they are in very way His works performed through us, but credited to us at the Judgement Seat of Christ when we stand before Him to see what sort our works really are, will they pass the test of fire.

Unless those works are His doing through us, and not our works we think He desires, they will not pass the test of fire.

You know yourself that water baptism is a work performed by another person on your behalf! You are trusting in the work of man for your salvation. Mungo, you know this is not right! You know there is something terribly wrong with this!

I have done my best to show you that we are save by the Grace of God entirely, no works on our part whatsoever. But you have chosen to ignore it, you don't want to understand it. I have done my part that God has required of me, there is nothing else I can do, until you want to understand.

Mungo

Let me say this.

When Martin Luther nailed to the Church door his 95 thesis in Wittenberg, Germany, the Reformation began.

Luther emphasized by headlining, " The just shall live by faith."

That is the problem we still have with your Church, they are not living by faith, but by works, and we reject it!

 

[Robert Pate]

Sure Rom 6:3 refers to us being baptised into Christ. But it doesn't say that it happed "When a repentant sinner comes to Christ to be saved by him" as you claimed.
So where does scripture say "When a repentant sinner comes to Christ to be saved by him, God spiritually baptizes him into Christ"?

I also asked you where scripture says "Water baptism is a public profession of one's faith in Christ."?



This thread is about "How does Jesus save us?". Your question is just a diversion.

You want to believe that a sinner is baptized into Christ when he joins the Catholic church.

 

[Rookie]

Matthew, Mark, Luke and John were all written under the law. The only books in the New Testament that were not written under the law are Paul's epistles. Yes, the law does promote sin, Romans 7:7-12. The law is the nature and the character of God. Those that are trying to keep the law and the commandments are trying to be like God. You can't be like God because you are a sinner, born after Adam, Romans 5:12. The law will cause you to be a hypocrite. Jesus referred to Pharisees as hypocrites seven times in the 23rd Chapter of Matthew.

When Jesus died on the cross everything changed, God tore the veil that covered the Holy of Holies from the top to the bottom, Matthew 27:51. This signified the end of the Old Covenant of law and religion and the beginning of the New Covenant of faith and the Gospel. Under the New Covenant, "Christ is the end of the law for righteousness to those that believe" Romans 10:4. This is why Paul said, "The just (justified) shall live by faith" Romans 1:17. In the Gospel God sees his people as perfect and complete "In Christ" Colossians 2:10. No laws, rules or religion needed. The question is do you believe?

You are correct for the most part, however, Matthew Mark and Luke and John were written after the Pauline Epistles. And if the law is the nature and character of God how can it promote sin when God's nature and character reject sin?

It's the abscence of law, or lawlessness that promotes sin, hence the most evil man to come is named The Man Of Lawlessness (or Sin), correct?

And when you assert to no laws rules or religion, are you saying you are free to sin and do whatever you want or that the working power of the Holy Spirit through faith will wipe sin from our lives?

Do you believe in the need to deny ourselves, take up our cross, and follow Jesus?

And you believe the Gospel's were written under the law, where is that mentioned in Scripture? And even so they are also God breathed like the whole Bible (2 Timothy 3:16-17) you can't cherry picked verses that support your doctrine and reject others that don't.

 

[Jethro Bodine]

Where does scripture say "Water baptism is a public profession of one's faith in Christ."?

Here:

1 Peter 3:21
21And this water symbolizes the baptism that now saves you also—not the removal of dirt from the body, but the pledge off a clear conscience toward God—through the resurrection of Jesus Christ

Read it in conjunction with Romans 10:10 and you’ll see that the mistake you are making is thinking the pledge and confession of your faith in public baptism is what makes you a saved person.

Romans 10:10
10For with your heart you believe and are justified, and with your mouth you confess and are saved.

Believing the gospel in your heart is what justifies you, making you a saved person, forgiven and released from all sin guilt. The confession of your faith in water baptism, or in any other commanded obedience of God does not do that. It can’t do that. Only faith can do that, all by itself, just as that was true for Abraham, our example of how to be justified by faith all by itself apart from works. When the Bible speaks of being saved by works it does not mean you become a saved person by doing those works.

 

[Charlie24]

Here:

1 Peter 3:21
21And this water symbolizes the baptism that now saves you also—not the removal of dirt from the body, but the pledge off a clear conscience toward God—through the resurrection of Jesus Christ

Read it in conjunction with Romans 10:10 and you’ll see that the mistake you are making is thinking the pledge and confession of your faith in public baptism faith is what makes you a saved person.

Romans 10:10
10For with your heart you believe and are justified, and with your mouth you confess and are saved.

Believing the gospel in your heart is what justifies you, making you a saved person, forgiven and released from all sin guilt. The confession of your faith in water baptism, or in any other commanded obedience of God does not do that. It can’t do that. Only faith can do that, all by itself, just as that was true for Abraham, our example of how to be justified by faith all by itself apart from works. When the Bible speaks of being saved by works it does not mean you become a saved person by doing those works.

Well said, Jethro!

 

[Robert Pate]

You are correct for the most part, however, Matthew Mark and Luke and John were written after the Pauline Epistles. And if the law is the nature and character of God how can it promote sin when God's nature and character reject sin?

It's the abscence of law, or lawlessness that promotes sin, hence the most evil man to come is named The Man Of Lawlessness (or Sin), correct?

And when you assert to no laws rules or religion, are you saying you are free to sin and do whatever you want or that the working power of the Holy Spirit through faith will wipe sin from our lives?

Do you believe in the need to deny ourselves, take up our cross, and follow Jesus?

And you believe the Gospel's were written under the law, where is that mentioned in Scripture? And even so they are also God breathed like the whole Bible (2 Timothy 3:16-17) you can't cherry picked verses that support your doctrine and reject others that don't.

What I teach is not my doctrine, it is Paul's doctrine. Paul said the law promotes sin, Romans 7:8. Your problem is not with me, your problem is with Paul. I am not going to waste my time trying to convince you that Paul is right. To be under the law or subject to it is to be under the curse, Galatians 3:10. Enjoy your curse.

 

[Mungo]

Mungo

Let me say this.

When Martin Luther nailed to the Church door his 95 thesis in Wittenberg, Germany, the Reformation began.

Luther emphasized by headlining, " The just shall live by faith."

That is the problem we still have with your Church, they are not living by faith, but by works, and we reject it!

Another opinion backed up by no evidence whatsoever.

Of course faith is needed. Jesus said "He who believes and is baptized will be saved" (Mk 16:16). I believe that. The Catholic Church teaches that and so did Martin Luther.

 

[Mungo]

You want to believe that a sinner is baptized into Christ when he joins the Catholic church.

A repentant sinner is baptised into Christ when he is baptised according to Jesus' instructions.
If he is baptised in a Catholic church then he joins the Catholic Church.
If he is baptised in a Lutheran church then he joins the Lutheran Church.
If he is baptised in a Presbyterian church then he is baptised into the Presbyterian Church.
etc.

And Peter said to them, “Repent, and be baptized every one of you in the name of Jesus Christ for the forgiveness of your sins; and you shall receive the gift of the Holy Spirit. ..... So those who received his word were baptized, and there were added that day about three thousand souls. (Acts 2:38&41).
What were they added to?
Added to the Church!

 

[Charlie24]

Another opinion backed up by no evidence whatsoever.

Of course faith is needed. Jesus said "He who believes and is baptized will be saved" (Mk 16:16). I believe that. The Catholic Church teaches that and so did Martin Luther.

That is where Luther and Calvin bumped heads during the Reformation.

They both agreed that the Catholic Church was wrong in their works, but differed on water baptism.

The Reformers were not perfect in doctrine and neither are we.

But they all agreed on one thing, they must depart from the Catholic Church.

 

[Mungo]

Here:

1 Peter 3:21
21And this water symbolizes the baptism that now saves you also—not the removal of dirt from the body, but the pledge off a clear conscience toward God—through the resurrection of Jesus Christ

Read it in conjunction with Romans 10:10 and you’ll see that the mistake you are making is thinking the pledge and confession of your faith in public baptism is what makes you a saved person.

Romans 10:10
10For with your heart you believe and are justified, and with your mouth you confess and are saved.

Believing the gospel in your heart is what justifies you, making you a saved person, forgiven and released from all sin guilt. The confession of your faith in water baptism, or in any other commanded obedience of God does not do that. It can’t do that. Only faith can do that, all by itself, just as that was true for Abraham, our example of how to be justified by faith all by itself apart from works. When the Bible speaks of being saved by works it does not mean you become a saved person by doing those works.

That doesn't say "Water baptism is a public profession of one's faith in Christ."

Also see post #22 for why Romans 10:10 doesn't say what you claim.

 

[Mungo]

That is where Luther and Calvin bumped heads during the Reformation.

They both agreed that the Catholic Church was wrong in their works, but differed on water baptism.

The Reformers were not perfect in doctrine and neither are we.

But they all agreed on one thing, they must depart from the Catholic Church.

So what? That's not relevant to how Jesus saves us.

 

[Charlie24]

So what? That's not relevant to how Jesus saves us.

OK, I can't argue over it. It's a waste of time.

 

[Mungo]

OK, I can't argue over it. It's a waste of time.

Well certainly, just pushing your unscriptural opinions is a waste of time.

 

[Robert Pate]

A repentant sinner is baptised into Christ when he is baptised according to Jesus' instructions.
If he is baptised in a Catholic church then he joins the Catholic Church.
If he is baptised in a Lutheran church then he joins the Lutheran Church.
If he is baptised in a Presbyterian church then he is baptised into the Presbyterian Church.
etc.

And Peter said to them, “Repent, and be baptized every one of you in the name of Jesus Christ for the forgiveness of your sins; and you shall receive the gift of the Holy Spirit. ..... So those who received his word were baptized, and there were added that day about three thousand souls. (Acts 2:38&41).
What were they added to?
Added to the Church!

Baptism is the results of salvation, not the cause of it. The scripture says, "Now when they heard this (the Gospel) they were pricked in their heart and said to the rest of the apostles, Men and brethren, WHAT SHALL WE DO? Acts 2:37.

They were already saved. Then Peter said unto them, Repent and be baptized every one of you in the name of Jesus Christ for the remission of sins, and you shall receive the gift of the Holy Spirit, Acts 2:37. Peter was not the best source for theological information. Paul had to set him strait, Galatians 2:11-16.

 

[Mungo]

Baptism is the results of salvation, not the cause of it. The scripture says, "Now when they heard this (the Gospel) they were pricked in their heart and said to the rest of the apostles, Men and brethren, WHAT SHALL WE DO? Acts 2:37.

They were already saved. Then Peter said unto them, Repent and be baptized every one of you in the name of Jesus Christ for the remission of sins, and you shall receive the gift of the Holy Spirit, Acts 2:37. Peter was not the best source for theological information. Paul had to set him strait, Galatians 2:11-16.

No, baptism is not the result of salvation. That is not biblical.
Jesus said "He who believes and is baptized will be saved"
That's faith + baptism = salvation.
Jesus put salvation after baptism (will be saved) not before.

Acts 2:37 doesn't say they were saved. You just made that up.
They hadn't yet had their sins forgiven. That is part of salvation.
Note Peter says baptism is for the forgiveness of sins. He also says that when they are baptised they will receive the Holy Spirit. All part of salvation.

What you are trying to suggest by your (false) comments about Peter is the Peter, having just been filled with the Holy Spirit, was inspired by that Holy Spirit to speak falsehoods.

 

[Rookie]

What I teach is not my doctrine, it is Paul's doctrine. Paul said the law promotes sin, Romans 7:8. Your problem is not with me, your problem is with Paul. I am not going to waste my time trying to convince you that Paul is right. To be under the law or subject to it is to be under the curse, Galatians 3:10. Enjoy your curse.

If you are so right then why are you robotically avoiding the verses that contradict your understanding of Paul, I notice you rarely if ever address a comment directly just repeat what you've said like your talking to yourself.

You haven't addressed the contradiction of your eisegesis of Paul compared to "Romans 13:1-5, Romans 3:31, John 14:21, Galatians 3:21, Matthew 5:17-19".

You haven't addressed how can the law be God's nature and character and at the same time promote sin?

You haven't addressed the commentaries which show the real meaning of Romans 7:8
According to versebyversecommentary:
"The principle here is that, if there is no law, then there is no transgression. Transgression is the crossing of a line or standard set up by God. A person can sin but, if there is no law prohibiting that sin, there is no crossing of a standard, even God’s norms. No one can have responsibility for a violation if there is no extant law that forbids it. Until God gave the law 500 years after Abraham, there was no transgression.
Ro 5:13, (For until the law sin was in the world, but sin is not imputed when there is no law.
“No transgression” does not mean there is no sin. The idea here is simply that a transgression is the basis for annulling God’s promise. God cannot fulfill His promise if those to whom He made the promise come short of the promise by keeping the law.
Sin occurred before the law, but it was not a transgression because there was no extant standard to prohibit it. Again, the law made sin sinful."
Bibleref.com
"This is not meant to be understood to mean those not under the law have never sinned. Everyone has sinned (Romans 3:23), and has done so without any valid excuse (Romans 1:18–20). Paul simply means that those who are not under the law have not broken the law, specifically."

You haven't addressed "And when you assert to no laws rules or religion, are you saying you are free to sin and do whatever you want or that the working power of the Holy Spirit through faith will wipe sin from our lives?
Do you believe in the need to deny ourselves, take up our cross, and follow Jesus?
And you believe the Gospel's were written under the law, where is that mentioned in Scripture? And even so they are also God breathed like the whole Bible (2 Timothy 3:16-17) you can't cherry picked verses that support your doctrine and reject others that don't."

What you're doing and what others have pointed out is that you're twisting Scripture to support you're overarching theology of faith/no works salvation, which you have a crooked eisegesis of Paul, which contradicts other passages of Scripture, but your pride refuses for you to admit that.

The book of James also contradicts your entire foundation of your personally altered theology. You can say it was written under the law (which you have zero evidence for than your opinion) but 2 Timothy 3:16-17 contradicts your view that James, or any passage of the Bible that contradicts your thesis isn't usable.

Revelation 22:18-19 "18 I warn everyone who hears the words of the prophecy of this scroll: If anyone adds anything to them, God will add to that person the plagues described in this scroll. 19 And if anyone takes words away from this scroll of prophecy, God will take away from that person any share in the tree of life and in the Holy City, which are described in this scroll.

Using Scripture to justify your own theology is were things get dangerous. But enjoy to your own expense.