How exactly is Divorce without cause and remarriage NOT ADULTERY?

[for_his_glory]

I think he gave fitting advice for the setting.

That's what I am talking about. He gave, not God. Yes many things of what he spoke can be found in other scriptures, but yet what he spoke was his opinions and judgement as in his own authority to speak as God only gave him permission to speak, but not what to say.

 

[billybalke]

Your skirting the question :-( I don't like that game Billy, I'm too old to play, and it's not conducive to an open discussion.
As far as what repentance is, as far as I can tell, it's stopping one behavior / thought that is against our created design and doing another which is in line with how God created us to live. By way of example, Paul tells us this.
Ephesians 4:24 And that you put on the new man, which after God is created in righteousness and true holiness.
Here are the examples of what repentance looks like according to Paul.
Ephesians 4:25 Therefore putting away lying, speak every man truth with his neighbor: for we are members one of another.
We see that it's not enough to stop what were doing, but we must start doing what we should be doing. In the case above, one is still a liar until he starts telling the truth.
Ephesians 4:28 Let him that stole steal no more: but rather let him labor, working with his hands the thing which is good, that he may have to give to him that needs.
Here, we see that it's not enough to stop stealing. One must get a job and provide for those in need. This is what repentance looks like. We stop doing what is wrong, and do what is right, and there is a direct correlation IE Lies - telling truth. Stealing - giving etc, etc, etc.
Paul himself was probably one of the greatest examples where he once persecuted and murdered Christian, he became one of Christ's most vocal advocate as attested by his many writings.
John the Baptist also shows many examples of repentance to tax collectors etc.

Now, I have openly told you what my thoughts are on what repentance is, and how it's lived out. Do you have any more questions that you would like me to clear up before answering my questions to you?

I'm not "skirting" anything. Mt.5:32 is plain, see my comments in post 165. Gal.5:19-21 is plain, those who continue to do the works of the flesh (including adultery) "shall not inherit the kingdom of heaven."

You provided numerous passages teaching what repentance is, and--they are correct and you are to be congratulated for presenting them. I like also Jesus' definition of repentance in Mt. 21:28-31, its short and to the point. I shall not add opinion and emotion to it. There has been to much emotion, speculation and feeling in this thread. The truth can and does often sting, but none the less its God's word. The bottom line of those passages is do what they teach. If the thief must stop stealing, then what must the adulterer do?

BTW, I'm not a "disciple of the Church of Christ" but of Jesus the Christ. I am, however, a part of that body, the church which is "the pillar and ground of the truth" I Tim.3:15.

To be deep in scripture is to cease being Catholic, Protestant (denominational), Jew and Calvinist.
Rom.16:16

 

[Free]

Well, since it is Paul's command and not God's it's all conjecture and personal opinion. Including that of Paul.
Marriage between two people isn't a consensus among the church. That's a cult. Not the body of Christ.

So you cannot believe any of the Bible is inspired, or, if you do, then you cannot know what is inspired and what isn't. Not a great position to hold. It makes me wonder why you are even debating what the Bible says.

 

[billybalke]

So you cannot believe any of the Bible is inspired, or, if you do, then you cannot know what is inspired and what isn't. Not a great position to hold. It makes me wonder why you are even debating what the Bible says.

Amen and Amen!

 

[billybalke]

Amen and Amen!

I suggest that I Cor.7 be understood in the context of vs. 26: "I suppose therefore that this is good for THE PRESENT DISTRESS--". (emp. mine, B.B.

 

[Free]

Twelve things (at least) support my argument from the context.

Not a single one. You are reading into those things the idea of marriage. You need to let Scripture speak.

No I’m not. It’s clearly about more than worshipping.

No, it's about worshipping. I'll post the verses again:

2Co 6:14 Do not be unequally yoked with unbelievers. For what partnership has righteousness with lawlessness? Or what fellowship has light with darkness?
2Co 6:15 What accord has Christ with Belial? Or what portion does a believer share with an unbeliever?
2Co 6:16 What agreement has the temple of God with idols? For we are the temple of the living God; as God said, “I will make my dwelling among them and walk among them, and I will be their God, and they shall be my people.
2Co 6:17 Therefore go out from their midst, and be separate from them, says the Lord, and touch no unclean thing; then I will welcome you, (ESV)

It is about not joining in the worship of idols.

You are claiming (not effectively) an opinion that v14 is only about worship of idols when clearly it’s about whom to partner with (or not) in various aspects and “affections” of life as the context of the letter, indeed the chapter, proves. To include in whom to partner with in marriage, in fellowship, in ministry, in sleepless nights, etc. as a showed.

Do not become unevenly yoked with unbelievers, for what participation is there between righteousness and lawlessness? Or what fellowship does light have with darkness?​

2 Corinthians 6:14 - https://www.biblegateway.com/passage?search=2 Corinthians 6:14&version=LEB

The context supports my position, whereas you are reading things into the text that are not there.

And it’s God who yokes spouses together:

and said, ‘On account of this a man will leave his father and his mother and will be joined to his wife, and the two will become one flesh’? So then, they are no longer two but one flesh. Therefore what God has joined together, man must not separate.”​

Matthew 19:5-6 - https://www.biblegateway.com/passage?search=Matthew 19:5-6&version=LEB

Which would mean all spouses.

 

[stovebolts]

I'm not "skirting" anything. Mt.5:32 is plain, see my comments in post 165. Gal.5:19-21 is plain, those who continue to do the works of the flesh (including adultery) "shall not inherit the kingdom of heaven."

You provided numerous passages teaching what repentance is, and--they are correct and you are to be congratulated for presenting them. I like also Jesus' definition of repentance in Mt. 21:28-31, its short and to the point. I shall not add opinion and emotion to it. There has been to much emotion, speculation and feeling in this thread. The truth can and does often sting, but none the less its God's word. The bottom line of those passages is do what they teach. If the thief must stop stealing, then what must the adulterer do?

BTW, I'm not a "disciple of the Church of Christ" but of Jesus the Christ. I am, however, a part of that body, the church which is "the pillar and ground of the truth" I Tim.3:1

To be deep in scripture is to cease being Catholic, Protestant (denominational), Jew and Calvinist.
Rom.16:16

Billy,
What I asked you, is how you live out your faith? And how do you treat others? You have already stated point blank that anyone living in adultery, for any reason has lost their salvation and are damned to hell citing Galations 5:19-21 as your grounds.
I challenge this notion as every sin is forgivable except one, and that is to deny the work of the Holy Spirit. And I think this is where you need to tread lightly.
Jesus said Matthew 5:28 But I say unto you, That whosoever looketh on a woman to lust after her hath committed adultery with her already in his heart.
How many married men in today's world are secretly addicted to Porn, or secretly look at other women lustfully through the week? When this happens, they start to treat their wives like dirt. They stop loving their wives as they are commanded to do. Sure, there is no physical evidence for adultery, but God knows the heart of men, and neither you nor I are judge of that.
What I do know, is that a man has a responsibility to his wife just like Israel has responsibility to God. Yet Israel went after idols... pieces of wood and stone. No, they did not have sex with these objects, yet God called them prostitutes, and how much worse is a prostitute who is married who commits adultery than one who commits adultery in their heart?
This is not emotion my friend, it is life, and the world we live our faith in.

Let me ask you your thoughts on these verses.
Romans 1:29-32 Being filled with all unrighteousness, fornication, wickedness, covetousness, maliciousness; full of envy, murder, debate, deceit, malignity; whisperers, Backbiters, haters of God, despiteful, proud, boasters, inventors of evil things, disobedient to parents, Without understanding, covenant breakers, without natural affection, implacable, unmerciful: Who knowing the judgment of God, that they who commit such things are worthy of death, not only do the same, but have pleasure in them that do them.
Romans 2:1-6 Therefore you are inexcusable, O man, whosoever you are that judge: for in what you judge another, you condemn yourself; for you that judge do the same things. But we are sure that the judgment of God is according to truth against them who commit such things. And do you think, O man, that judge them who do such things, and do the same, that you shall escape the judgment of God? Or despise you the riches of his goodness and forbearance and longsuffering; not knowing that the goodness of God leads you to repentance? But according to your hardness and unrepentant heart treasure up unto yourself wrath against the day of wrath and revelation of the righteous judgment of God; Who will render to every man according to his deeds:

I'll end with a story. When my current wife divorced her first husband, it was because he was physically abusive to her and wanted to bring another man into the bedroom. When she divorced him, she had no physical proof that he had committed adultery. Point blank, they told her, "Good luck finding another church that will accept you".
And yet another reason I am disappointed in the teachings of the church of Christ. There is no understanding. Only rules and consequences who would have happily married couples separate, or sleep in different beds...

 

[Free]

I'll end with a story. When my current wife divorced her first husband, it was because he was physically abusive to her and wanted to bring another man into the bedroom. When she divorced him, she had no physical proof that he had committed adultery. Point blank, they told her, "Good luck finding another church that will accept you".
And yet another reason I am disappointed in the teachings of the church of Christ. There is no understanding. Only rules and consequences.

Exactly a couple of the reasons why I think there is more to the issue than what people think Jesus plainly said. There simply cannot be any way that God wants people to remain married to an abusive spouse, given what marriage is and what it is supposed to be about.

 

[stovebolts]

Exactly a couple of the reasons why I think there is more to the issue than what people think Jesus plainly said. There simply cannot be any way that God wants people to remain married to an abusive spouse, given what marriage is and what it is supposed to be about.

Exactly, which is why I brought in the point about Israel being known as Adulterers and a prostitute...

Matthew 16:4 A wicked and adulterous generation seeketh after a sign; and there shall no sign be given unto it, but the sign of the prophet Jonas. And he left them, and departed.

 

[Free]

Exactly, which is why I brought in the point about Israel being known as Adulterers and a prostitute...

Ah, I should have read the whole post. Ha ha. I made some points several pages back which have gone unaddressed. Among them were the fact marriage is used as an analogy for Christ and the Church. Together with your point, which does stand alone, it is hard to see how God would tolerate someone abusing Christ and not remove them from his Church.

It is also worth noting that if we take Jesus words to mean that only due to marital unfaithfulness, then we must also see that he is talking to men only and women therefore have no recourse for unfaithful husbands. I brought up a couple of other points regarding those passages, but as of yet, no response.

 

[reba]

Sheesh i also touchrd on those points

 

[Free]

Sheesh i also touchrd on those points

I've missed a few pages.

 

[reba]

LoL the church is the bride (female) Christ the groom

SHE did not have a right of divorce

 

[Traveling teacher]

I believe the scriptures are clear on marriage divorce and remarriage.....
But i beleieve there is a deeper question and A higher commandment...

In all these issues are we walking in love??????
Matthew 22:36-40
Are we loving our spouse and forgiving as Christ forgave us.....
Do we hold bitterness and unforgiveness against our husband wife or EX......
How can Christ forgive us if we dont forgive our EX.......
Matthew 6:14-15
Those who are divorced have you confessed past transgressions???????

2 of my closest brothers in Christ have 7 marriages between them both......
Same issues carried over to the next marriage.....
Even if you are legally divorced...not wise to remarry until you work out past issues.........

 

[billybalke]

Billy,
What I asked you, is how you live out your faith? And how do you treat others? You have already stated point blank that anyone living in adultery, for any reason has lost their salvation and are damned to hell citing Galations 5:19-21 as your grounds.
I challenge this notion as every sin is forgivable except one, and that is to deny the work of the Holy Spirit. And I think this is where you need to tread lightly.
Jesus said Matthew 5:28 But I say unto you, That whosoever looketh on a woman to lust after her hath committed adultery with her already in his heart.
How many married men in today's world are secretly addicted to Porn, or secretly look at other women lustfully through the week? When this happens, they start to treat their wives like dirt. They stop loving their wives as they are commanded to do. Sure, there is no physical evidence for adultery, but God knows the heart of men, and neither you nor I are judge of that.
What I do know, is that a man has a responsibility to his wife just like Israel has responsibility to God. Yet Israel went after idols... pieces of wood and stone. No, they did not have sex with these objects, yet God called them prostitutes, and how much worse is a prostitute who is married who commits adultery than one who commits adultery in their heart?
This is not emotion my friend, it is life, and the world we live our faith in.

Let me ask you your thoughts on these verses.
Romans 1:29-32 Being filled with all unrighteousness, fornication, wickedness, covetousness, maliciousness; full of envy, murder, debate, deceit, malignity; whisperers, Backbiters, haters of God, despiteful, proud, boasters, inventors of evil things, disobedient to parents, Without understanding, covenant breakers, without natural affection, implacable, unmerciful: Who knowing the judgment of God, that they who commit such things are worthy of death, not only do the same, but have pleasure in them that do them.
Romans 2:1-6 Therefore you are inexcusable, O man, whosoever you are that judge: for in what you judge another, you condemn yourself; for you that judge do the same things. But we are sure that the judgment of God is according to truth against them who commit such things. And do you think, O man, that judge them who do such things, and do the same, that you shall escape the judgment of God? Or despise you the riches of his goodness and forbearance and longsuffering; not knowing that the goodness of God leads you to repentance? But according to your hardness and unrepentant heart treasure up unto yourself wrath against the day of wrath and revelation of the righteous judgment of God; Who will render to every man according to his deeds:

I'll end with a story. When my current wife divorced her first husband, it was because he was physically abusive to her and wanted to bring another man into the bedroom. When she divorced him, she had no physical proof that he had committed adultery. Point blank, they told her, "Good luck finding another church that will accept you".
And yet another reason I am disappointed in the teachings of the church of Christ. There is no understanding. Only rules and consequences who would have happily married couples separate, or sleep in different beds...

Can you produce a scripture which teaches that unrepented

Billy,
What I asked you, is how you live out your faith? And how do you treat others? You have already stated point blank that anyone living in adultery, for any reason has lost their salvation and are damned to hell citing Galations 5:19-21 as your grounds.
I challenge this notion as every sin is forgivable except one, and that is to deny the work of the Holy Spirit. And I think this is where you need to tread lightly.
Jesus said Matthew 5:28 But I say unto you, That whosoever looketh on a woman to lust after her hath committed adultery with her already in his heart.
How many married men in today's world are secretly addicted to Porn, or secretly look at other women lustfully through the week? When this happens, they start to treat their wives like dirt. They stop loving their wives as they are commanded to do. Sure, there is no physical evidence for adultery, but God knows the heart of men, and neither you nor I are judge of that.
What I do know, is that a man has a responsibility to his wife just like Israel has responsibility to God. Yet Israel went after idols... pieces of wood and stone. No, they did not have sex with these objects, yet God called them prostitutes, and how much worse is a prostitute who is married who commits adultery than one who commits adultery in their heart?
This is not emotion my friend, it is life, and the world we live our faith in.

Let me ask you your thoughts on these verses.
Romans 1:29-32 Being filled with all unrighteousness, fornication, wickedness, covetousness, maliciousness; full of envy, murder, debate, deceit, malignity; whisperers, Backbiters, haters of God, despiteful, proud, boasters, inventors of evil things, disobedient to parents, Without understanding, covenant breakers, without natural affection, implacable, unmerciful: Who knowing the judgment of God, that they who commit such things are worthy of death, not only do the same, but have pleasure in them that do them.
Romans 2:1-6 Therefore you are inexcusable, O man, whosoever you are that judge: for in what you judge another, you condemn yourself; for you that judge do the same things. But we are sure that the judgment of God is according to truth against them who commit such things. And do you think, O man, that judge them who do such things, and do the same, that you shall escape the judgment of God? Or despise you the riches of his goodness and forbearance and longsuffering; not knowing that the goodness of God leads you to repentance? But according to your hardness and unrepentant heart treasure up unto yourself wrath against the day of wrath and revelation of the righteous judgment of God; Who will render to every man according to his deeds:

I'll end with a story. When my current wife divorced her first husband, it was because he was physically abusive to her and wanted to bring another man into the bedroom. When she divorced him, she had no physical proof that he had committed adultery. Point blank, they told her, "Good luck finding another church that will accept you".
And yet another reason I am disappointed in the teachings of the church of Christ. There is no understanding. Only rules and consequences who would have happily married couples separate, or sleep in different beds...

Yes, there is only one unforgiveable sin, agreed. But, can you produce a scripture teaching that any sin is forgiven without repentance? Thats what you need.

 

[stovebolts]

Ah, I should have read the whole post. Ha ha. I made some points several pages back which have gone unaddressed. Among them were the fact marriage is used as an analogy for Christ and the Church. Together with your point, which does stand alone, it is hard to see how God would tolerate someone abusing Christ and not remove them from his Church.

It is also worth noting that if we take Jesus words to mean that only due to marital unfaithfulness, then we must also see that he is talking to men only and women therefore have no recourse for unfaithful husbands. I brought up a couple of other points regarding those passages, but as of yet, no response.

Good points, and I doubt they will be addressed. It's unfortunate. But yeah, I agree that there is more to this than what's on the surface. In the conservative church of Christ, they teach a hard line on the issue, which is why I was pushing back on Billy. On my wife's side of the family, she has relatives who sleep in different beds because the wife didn't have a "biblical" divorce. I have also heard couples who after finding out they were living in "adultery," and fearing for their salvation, they divorced.
This is why I asked Billy how he lives out his faith. I'd like to know how he views the issue and what rules he would bind on others.

 

[stovebolts]

Can you produce a scripture which teaches that unrepented


Yes, there is only one unforgiveable sin, agreed. But, can you produce a scripture teaching that any sin is forgiven without repentance? Thats what you need.

Earlier, I showed scripture that separates sin committed in ignorance, and sin committed willfully and that both sins will be treated differently.
There are levels of scripture where you may have to break one commandment to honor another, just like in the case of David eating the shewbread that was only for the priest. It's called discernment and it's not so black and white as you are making it out to be. There is no giving or taking of marriage in the world to come, and as Paul says in his letter to the Romans, a woman is not considered an adulteress once her husband dies. She is no longer bound by that law.

So, what would repentance look like for somebody with an un-scriptural divorce? Perhaps it would look like a second chance where one wouldn't make the same mistakes in their second marriage that they did in the first marriage. Paul couldn't bring back the Christians he killed, and sometimes you can't bring back a marriage that's been destroyed. But what you can do, is learn and grow from the experience and be conformed more to the image of Christ each and every day.

None of this is to minimize the severity of divorce. God hates it, and so should we. When two people can't live in accordance to God's will, it's an ugly thing. If people could live up to God's standards for us, we wouldn't need God's grace. But God's grace isn't cheap, we were bought with a price. This means we keep trying, we don't give up. We confess our sins, and support one another in our walk with Christ. We ease one another's burdens, and we pray for each others burdens. We don't revel in how right we are, and add additional physical and emotional burden's to our fellow Brothers and Sisters.

 

[reba]

So the guy that looks at 'other ' women in lust... over and over how does he repent...blind his eyes his mind eye

Psa_103:12 As far as the east is from the west, so far hath he removed our transgressions from us.

Another divorce? how does sinning again fix the first sin...

Those who are in the world bounce around awhile then seek our Lord are their sins washed white as snow..

My thoughts kinda run different for those who claim Christianity THEN divorce & remarry

 

[reba]

very nice post StoveBolts

 

[billybalke]

Earlier, I showed scripture that separates sin committed in ignorance, and sin committed willfully and that both sins will be treated differently.
There are levels of scripture where you may have to break one commandment to honor another, just like in the case of David eating the shewbread that was only for the priest. It's called discernment and it's not so black and white as you are making it out to be. There is no giving or taking of marriage in the world to come, and as Paul says in his letter to the Romans, a woman is not considered an adulteress once her husband dies. She is no longer bound by that law.

So, what would repentance look like for somebody with an un-scriptural divorce? Perhaps it would look like a second chance where one wouldn't make the same mistakes in their second marriage that they did in the first marriage. Paul couldn't bring back the Christians he killed, and sometimes you can't bring back a marriage that's been destroyed. But what you can do, is learn and grow from the experience and be conformed more to the image of Christ each and every day.

None of this is to minimize the severity of divorce. God hates it, and so should we. When two people can't live in accordance to God's will, it's an ugly thing. If people could live up to God's standards for us, we wouldn't need God's grace. But God's grace isn't cheap, we were bought with a price. This means we keep trying, we don't give up. We confess our sins, and support one another in our walk with Christ. We ease one another's burdens, and we pray for each others burdens. We don't revel in how right we are, and add additional physical and emotional burden's to our fellow Brothers and Sisters.

Some of the above I agree with. Some is emotion as with your previous post prior to this one. Mt. 5 and Gal.5 etc. are plain, simple and easy to be understood. I didn't write it, God did. I didn't choose it, God did. I'm not the judge, God is. I can only attempt to "speak where the Bible speaks". I do not claim to be right, God forbid. God is always right. God is God, you and I are not.

Again, I ask you to produce the scripture which teaches forgiveness without repentance. Again, I ask if the thief is to be saved, what must he do? If the drunkard is to be saved, what must he do? If the liar is to be saved, what must he do? If the adulterer is to be saved what must he so? No emotion please, its "what saith the scripture" Rom.4:3.

With this I'm going to bed, even if the New Year has not yet arrived.

Respectfully