How must we love?

[Godfrey]

Sorry, I meant Jer.12.8 as quoted in my earlier post. Tiredness.

I’m not totally clear how much we are agreeing and how much we are differing. We both agree that the Atonement was unconditional, I think. And if by

what is conditional is the way that love is manifest in our lives

you mean, but it is not unconditional that we are going to experience that love, here and in heaven, then I agree. What I have trouble with is, first, that it does appear to me that there comes a point where we may no longer be the object of God’s love. If Jesus commands us to remain in His love right after warning about cut off branches being thrown into the fire and burned, then it seems to me that they are burnt precisely because they have not remained in His love. But perhaps this is splitting hairs from a practical viewpoint: if you are burning in the fires of hell, whether or not God still loves you in some way is immaterial.

My second problem, so far unstated on this thread, is that I think we do unbelievers a disservice if we talk to them about unconditional love. I don’t say, ‘God loves you’ to unbelievers any more, because I know what sort of reaction I will get: the indifferent ‘Yeah, whatever’; the antagonistic ‘Well, how come he let all those people die in that earthquake in Sumatra? How come he let my dad die painfully of cancer?’ and, lastly and most dangerously, the assumption that what I am offering is universalism: they will go to heaven regardless of their life here on earth – because God loves them.

but John 3:16 does apply to all of the human race

Yes, but do we read it aright? For years I subconsciously read it as ‘For God loves the world so very much ….’, but that isn’t what it really says. You have to look back to v.15 and that incident in Numbers 21. Here’s a translation that expresses that word so as it should be:

14-15 ‘Moses lifted up the snake in the desert that the people might be healed; in the same way the Son of Man must be lifted up that everyone who believes in Him might be saved and receive eternal life as a gift.’

John explains (3.16-21)

In the same way, because God loved the people of the world, He gave His one and only Son so that whoever believes in Him shall not die eternally, but have God’s gift of eternal life instead …

- The Truth version

As I have mentioned Pawson, perhaps I can quote his gloss:

The important point in the [Numbers 21] story is this: God refused to take the snakes away … The people were still under constant threat of death, but God gave them a way of escape.
...
Now that is the story of [an] occasion when God loved. And it was in just the same way that God loved the rebellious world and gave His Son.
…
Do you understand what we are saying? Here in John’s gospel, the God of the Old Testament who puts people to death for ingratitude, is the same God who gives His only Son for us … But when you take v.16 by itself, you may well be misled into thinking that the God of the New Testament is not the God of the Old, and that He is much kinder and more loving than He was then, whereas John is saying, 'In the same way';'Just so.'

- Pawson, op.cit.

 

[Guest]

Sorry, I meant Jer.12.8 as quoted in my earlier post. Tiredness.

I’m not totally clear how much we are agreeing and how much we are differing. We both agree that the Atonement was unconditional, I think. And if by

what is conditional is the way that love is manifest in our lives

you mean, but it is not unconditional that we are going to experience that love, here and in heaven, then I agree. What I have trouble with is, first, that it does appear to me that there comes a point where we may no longer be the object of God’s love. If Jesus commands us to remain in His love right after warning about cut off branches being thrown into the fire and burned, then it seems to me that they are burnt precisely because they have not remained in His love. But perhaps this is splitting hairs from a practical viewpoint: if you are burning in the fires of hell, whether or not God still loves you in some way is immaterial.

let's skip to this part... We, the humans of this world, are the very objects of God's love...but in order to understand this in relation to how love is manifest in our lives, we first must understand what love is...let me see if I can make this ultra simplistic, so that it is easier to understand....I have 5 children, when they disobey, they get into trouble, that, depending on the offense, could be a scolding, a grounding, a spank, or maybe a combination...all of those stem from the very same love but because they didn't "remain" in my love, they knew justice for thier actions. The love doesn't change, in fact it is because of my unconditional love that I grieve, worry, get angry at them. It is the love I have for them that compels me to punish them. If they remain in my love, they do not know my wrath, my judgment of thier actions, but if they do not, the very unconditional love, is manifest in a very different way. Love is not a warm fuzzy, it transcends emotions, love isn't an act of compassion, it transcends actions...love cannot be contained in emotions or actions which is why the Greeks had several different words for love, so that we could know what love we are speaking of...Hope that clarifies some for you...

My second problem, so far unstated on this thread, is that I think we do unbelievers a disservice if we talk to them about unconditional love. I don’t say, ‘God loves you’ to unbelievers any more, because I know what sort of reaction I will get: the indifferent ‘Yeah, whatever’; the antagonistic ‘Well, how come he let all those people die in that earthquake in Sumatra? How come he let my dad die painfully of cancer?’ and, lastly and most dangerously, the assumption that what I am offering is universalism: they will go to heaven regardless of their life here on earth – because God loves them.

I gathered that was your problem from the start, but again it goes back to a correct understanding of what love is....let me tell you a quick story, not about me, but about God. Many years ago, I asked God to teach me to love and to listen...years later He compelled me to write something He had been laying on my heart. The written words so moved me that I began to understand what He had been teaching me. For about 2 1/2 years now, I have been focusing about 6-8 hours a day on the study of biblical love. The result of this is that I have at one time or other talked to someone from each of the groups you have mentioned and been able to silence their objections to God through the simple understanding of what biblical love is all about. "Yeah whatever" is not a real response, it is an excuse, scripture tells us that everyone in the world is seeking unconditional love. If scripture is truth, then that means that for all the protests, they are still interested is seeing how God's love is unconditional.

‘Well, how come he let all those people die in that earthquake in Sumatra? How come he let my dad die painfully of cancer?’ This too is easy when we understand what love is, because love does not force itself on man, this goes for both the believer and the unbeliever, it waits. It also knows the real dangers in theis world, dangers that we don't always understand with physical eyes.

they will go to heaven regardless of their life here on earth and this one we have already talked about...salvation is conditional, just as living in the center of God's love is conditional, what is not conditional is the love God extends to all man.

Now one more thing here, let me also explain to you that I know first hand and through scripture how loving God can be, even in the midst of great "tradgety". Let me share one such story with you. I'll shorten the story a bit for you since you didn't really ask for a story. I grew up in an abusive household. One day while I was sewing, my sister came in and laid on my back. Long story short when she finally got off my back, she ran to my dad, showed him and old scratch and claimed I scratched her. My father went bolistic, took off his belt and began to beat me for scratching my sister, something I did not do...again long story short, this sounds like a terrible tradgety for a young kid growing up trying to see a God who loves. But the funny thing is, I did see God in that situation, an unconditional love of my Lord and King. For never once did that belt strike me, I neither felt it, nor had marks from that beating. From many others yes, but in that particular moment, God literally stood in my place, our tradgeties don't have to be tradgeties, in fact, what does scripture tell us? Rom 8:28, ALL things work together for good for those who love the Lord for those who are called according to His purpose...we go through life trying to label this thing or that thing as love, but God's word defines love for us, we can't do that on our own without failing. Love can be in the midst of our most joyous experiences, love can be lurking in the depths of our pains, and love, can and is found in the judgments of a righteous King, but until we take the time to explore and understand what love is and how it looks, we usually miss love, which is why so many turn away, walk away from the saving grace of our Lord and Savior. It is why so many who know God, refuse to remain in His love, because, we don't know what that love is, or how to remain in the center of it. First chaper complete ;)

[quote:3g3n20tn]but John 3:16 does apply to all of the human race

Yes, but do we read it aright? For years I subconsciously read it as ‘For God loves the world so very much ….’, but that isn’t what it really says. You have to look back to v.15 and that incident in Numbers 21. Here’s a translation that expresses that word so as it should be:

14-15 ‘Moses lifted up the snake in the desert that the people might be healed; in the same way the Son of Man must be lifted up that everyone who believes in Him might be saved and receive eternal life as a gift.’

John explains (3.16-21)

In the same way, because God loved the people of the world, He gave His one and only Son so that whoever believes in Him shall not die eternally, but have God’s gift of eternal life instead …

- The Truth version

As I have mentioned Pawson, perhaps I can quote his gloss:

The important point in the [Numbers 21] story is this: God refused to take the snakes away … The people were still under constant threat of death, but God gave them a way of escape.
...
Now that is the story of [an] occasion when God loved. And it was in just the same way that God loved the rebellious world and gave His Son.
…
Do you understand what we are saying?

nope

Here in John’s gospel, the God of the Old Testament who puts people to death for ingratitude, is the same God who gives His only Son for us … But when you take v.16 by itself, you may well be misled into thinking that the God of the New Testament is not the God of the Old, and that He is much kinder and more loving than He was then, whereas John is saying, 'In the same way';'Just so.'

- Pawson, op.cit.

[/quote:3g3n20tn]God is the same yesterday, today and forever, I don't see how any of this suggests otherwise? The God of the NT is just as loving, just as just, just as kind, patient, righteous, etc. as He was in the OT and yes, sometimes that involves hate. But in the end, when it is all done, the love, the passionate, just, unconditional love is absolutely, without doubt the same love.

 

[Godfrey]

Thanks for posting such an extensive reply.

I do understand about the different forms of love. Eros relates to the emotions, philia to the mind and agape to the will. When it says God loved the world, the word is agape. He didn't like the world, He wasn't attracted to the world, He just chose to do something about the world's predicament. A firefighter will risk his life in a burning building if he thinks there's someone in there to be got out, be the man Josef Fritzl, Bernie Madoff or Harold Shipman. That's agape. God, of course, knew exactly how sinful we are when He sent Jesus to die for us.

It is also agape that He calls us to repentance so that we can be saved. Obviously, salvation is conditional on our response, but I have to go further and say that the moment comes when God's love runs out. The agape attempt to get us to repent is abandoned, and we cannot say that the sinner is any longer the object of God's love. When you discipline your children, that is with their welfare at heart; but hell is purely punitive: it is not there for sinners' benefit or to improve them, but to punish them. Indeed, that word perish in John 3.16 has a connotation of being completely ruined.

I don't see how one can say in any meaningful sense that God loves the damned in hell. In which case the moment comes in this life when God gives up on you if you won't respond:

Then he told this parable: "A man had a fig tree, planted in his vineyard, and he went to look for fruit on it, but did not find any. So he said to the man who took care of the vineyard, 'For three years now I've been coming to look for fruit on this fig tree and haven't found any. Cut it down! Why should it use up the soil?'
"'Sir,' the man replied, 'leave it alone for one more year, and I'll dig around it and fertilize it. If it bears fruit next year, fine! If not, then cut it down.'" – Luke 13.6-9 NIV

Given that Jesus has just been speaking about unnatural and violent death, that is the real answer to the natural disaster question: it is not that God loves them, it is that their time has run out – after God has exerted Himself in agape love to get them to repent.

 

[Guest]

Thanks for posting such an extensive reply.

I do understand about the different forms of love. Eros relates to the emotions, philia to the mind and agape to the will. When it says God loved the world, the word is agape. He didn't like the world, He wasn't attracted to the world, He just chose to do something about the world's predicament. A firefighter will risk his life in a burning building if he thinks there's someone in there to be got out, be the man Josef Fritzl, Bernie Madoff or Harold Shipman. That's agape. God, of course, knew exactly how sinful we are when He sent Jesus to die for us.

It is also agape that He calls us to repentance so that we can be saved. Obviously, salvation is conditional on our response, but I have to go further and say that the moment comes when God's love runs out. The agape attempt to get us to repent is abandoned, and we cannot say that the sinner is any longer the object of God's love. When you discipline your children, that is with their welfare at heart; but hell is purely punitive: it is not there for sinners' benefit or to improve them, but to punish them. Indeed, that word perish in John 3.16 has a connotation of being completely ruined.

here is where our disagreement begins to become apparent. Hell is eternal death, it is not the punishment for our disobedience, but rather the consequence. As such, it is not something imposed on man because of sin, but rather the consequence man chooses for himself. It is a consequence that God grieves over and that grief is because of the unconditional love He has for man. Let me see, let's try this simplistic approach (I'm not suggesting your simplistic or anything, please don't take it that way) Let's take our same child, we tell them not to go play in the street, but even though our love instructed them properly, they play in the street anyway...car comes by and hits them...do I stop loving them? Of course not...do I grieve for the child? absolutely, I grieve because of love. God grieves for those who do not come, but that grief is because of love. The punishment for sin was laid out in Gen and is about toiling and pain in childbirth. Two different things.

I don't see how one can say in any meaningful sense that God loves the damned in hell. In which case the moment comes in this life when God gives up on you if you won't respond:

yes, He does give us over to our own evil desires, He does so because we are stubborn. consider the prodigal son, the father loved Him even though he gave the son over to his own evil desires. When did the father stop loving his son?

[quote:119f43h7]Then he told this parable: "A man had a fig tree, planted in his vineyard, and he went to look for fruit on it, but did not find any. So he said to the man who took care of the vineyard, 'For three years now I've been coming to look for fruit on this fig tree and haven't found any. Cut it down! Why should it use up the soil?'
"'Sir,' the man replied, 'leave it alone for one more year, and I'll dig around it and fertilize it. If it bears fruit next year, fine! If not, then cut it down.'" – Luke 13.6-9 NIV

Given that Jesus has just been speaking about unnatural and violent death, that is the real answer to the natural disaster question: it is not that God loves them, it is that their time has run out – after God has exerted Himself in agape love to get them to repent.[/quote:119f43h7]It's about both, I'm not sure I understand what is so hard to grasp about this concept. God gives man over to his own evil desires. Our eldest son wanted to walk to a neighboring state. We tried to offer him council but he was determined, so we advised him to at least prepare his feet for the trip. He didn't heed either warning, either advice, and walked out the door on a grand adventure. Why did we let him go, knowing the dangers that could befall him? Knowing he would surely fail in his quest? We let him go because we loved him. When we try to hold too tightly to what we love, we are sure to loose it. Remember the old saying, if you love something set it free if it comes back to you it is yours. Our son walked out the door because of our great love for him, not because we withdrew that love. If he had met demise, we would not have loved him any less. Ask any parent who loves their child, a child that is defiant, harmful to themselves, etc. why they let the child go in the first place, the answer is always love. Recently I talked to a young mother at church whose daughter was doing something she did not think was best for the child, her reasoning for letting her child do it, was that she loved her child enough to allow her to make her beliefs her own and not just her parents...that is great, unconditional love, the kind God shows to us His creation.

 

[Godfrey]

Here we do part company, because hell undoubtedly is a punishment as well as a consequence, and the Lord does the punishing:

"Then they will go away to eternal punishment, but the righteous to eternal life." Matt.25.46 NIV

... when the Lord Jesus is revealed from heaven in blazing fire with his powerful angels. He will punish those who do not know God and do not obey the gospel of our Lord Jesus. They will be punished with everlasting destruction and shut out from the presence of the Lord and from the majesty of his power - 2 Th.1.7-9 NIV

If we deliberately keep on sinning after we have received the knowledge of the truth, no sacrifice for sins is left, but only a fearful expectation of judgment and of raging fire that will consume the enemies of God.
Anyone who rejected the law of Moses died without mercy on the testimony of two or three witnesses.
How much more severely do you think a man deserves to be punished who has trampled the Son of God under foot, who has treated as an unholy thing the blood of the covenant that sanctified him, and who has insulted the Spirit of grace?
For we know him who said, "It is mine to avenge; I will repay," and again, "The Lord will judge his people." It is a dreadful thing to fall into the hands of the living God. - Heb.10.26-31 NIV

I don't think we are going to get any further with this, so I will sign off here. Nice talking to you

 

[Guest]

Here we do part company, because hell undoubtedly is a punishment as well as a consequence, and the Lord does the punishing:

"Then they will go away to eternal punishment, but the righteous to eternal life." Matt.25.46 NIV

... when the Lord Jesus is revealed from heaven in blazing fire with his powerful angels. He will punish those who do not know God and do not obey the gospel of our Lord Jesus. They will be punished with everlasting destruction and shut out from the presence of the Lord and from the majesty of his power - 2 Th.1.7-9 NIV

when in doubt, look it up....Matt. 25, disciplinary action...http://www.blueletterbible.org/lang/lex ... 2851&t=KJV which is indeed part of love.

II Th. 1:8...justice, again very much a part of love...
http://www.blueletterbible.org/lang/lex ... 1557&t=KJV

Neither show lack of love, and as far as punishment, even consequences can be viewed at punishment, though they are the result of something else, the words we use in this lang. conform to punishment. But the punishment referred to is not about lack of love, but rather about love itself.[quote:1ets4nrm]

If we deliberately keep on sinning after we have received the knowledge of the truth, no sacrifice for sins is left, but only a fearful expectation of judgment and of raging fire that will consume the enemies of God.

agreed

Anyone who rejected the law of Moses died without mercy on the testimony of two or three witnesses.
How much more severely do you think a man deserves to be punished who has trampled the Son of God under foot, who has treated as an unholy thing the blood of the covenant that sanctified him, and who has insulted the Spirit of grace?

it's not about my vengence at all, or what I think someone deserves, but rather it is about God.

For we know him who said, "It is mine to avenge; I will repay," and again, "The Lord will judge his people." It is a dreadful thing to fall into the hands of the living God. - Heb.10.26-31 NIV

agreed, but as stated previously judgment and justice are part of love, not the opposite. In fact, without love, neither could exist.

I don't think we are going to get any further with this, so I will sign off here. Nice talking to you

[/quote:1ets4nrm]it's been a pleasure