How strong is your belief in God?

[cyberjosh]

Nothing could please me more than to testify of my faith, and of the grace of my God who has been merciful and faithful to save me and redeem me. And I hope that if at all possible it might be able to edify others.

God Bless,

~Josh

 

[kenan]

So you belief is conditional then ? You dont actually believe, youre just waiting to see. Isnt that right ?
How can belief be sound and secure if it is based in condition and guesswork ?

My belief is indeed conditional: if God doesn't exist, then what is there to believe in? Nothing. And what is it when you believe in something in spite of proof that the inverse is true? Blind faith. And to me, blind faith is the worst kind of hypocrisy. Furthermore, why waste time believing in and glorifying an imaginary being so that they will have mercy on you, when you could be doing things that could genuinely benefit others instead of yourself?

But, my belief is solid: nothing rules out the existence of the Lord God, and I will continue to love the Lord who is my God and I will see him and the end of time.

Im not trying to be offensive

It was, as a matter of fact. "You don't actually believe, you're just waiting to see" was pretty striking to me: how could you possibly know what I believe in my heart? There is no way that I could express my deepest beliefs in mere words. And "Isn't that right?" sounded negatively judgmental to me, and you know that negative judgment is a big no for us Christians.

Saying "we cannot say without any reasonable doubt that God exists because He has never been observed" cancels out absolute faith and is not a secure belief. Hebrews 11:1 tells us, "Now faith is the substance of things hoped for, the evidence of things not seen."

True belief is more than just "fairly certain;" true belief knows.

What is the limit to "true belief"? Don't you think that, for example, the Flat Earth Society, who believe in a flat earth, is a ridiculous concept? They have no proof, and the earth has been observed from space to be spherical. Yet, they continue to grasp onto traditional beliefs simply because they don't want to let go of them.

The same concept applies here: if the God of Abraham, Isaac and Moses (our God: the Father, Son of God and Holy Spirit) was proven to be imaginary in the distant future, and instead it had been proven that god was, in fact, a man made concept, or that there were a multitude of gods, all with different purposes in the universe, would you continue to grasp onto false beliefs and traditions like the Flat Earth Society does today, in spite of outstanding and irrefutable evidence?

My belief is solid, and everything I stated in the previous paragraph is merely hypothetical: but consider it all the same. I seek truth, not blind faith.

 

[follower of Christ]

And to me, blind faith is the worst kind of hypocrisy.

Really ?
Because Jesus says just the opposite...that believing WITHOUT seeing is to be blessed

Jesus saith unto him, Thomas, because thou hast seen me, thou hast believed: blessed are they that have not seen, and yet have believed.
(Joh 20:29)

You will have to forgive me if I dont care much if YOU see something as hypocrisy that my LORD calls blessed

My belief is indeed conditional: if God doesn't exist, then what is there to believe in? Nothing.

Conditional belief isnt belief by definition. It is guesswork and not faith at all, Im afraid.
"I believe in you *IF* you really exist"....THAT is a contradiction and possibly this hypocrisy you speak of.

But, my belief is solid: nothing rules out the existence of the Lord God,

But your belief is in the POSSIBILITY that God exists, NOT in His existence itself as proven by your very own words.

and I will continue to love the Lord who is my God and I will see him and the end of time.

How can you love something you dont know exists ?
YOU said:

My belief is indeed conditional: if God doesn't exist, then what is there to believe in? Nothing.

"I love you but you may not exist"
THAT is a contradiction...

I seek truth, not blind faith.

Im seek to be pleasing to the God I believe 100% in

But without faith it is impossible to please him: for he that cometh to God must believe that he is, and that he is a rewarder of them that diligently seek him.
(Heb 11:6)

Its hardly blind faith when you KNOW that He exists ;)

It was, as a matter of fact. "You don't actually believe, you're just waiting to see" was pretty striking to me: how could you possibly know what I believe in my heart?

Yes, it WAS matter of fact.
And what I said is true for those whose belief in His existence is conditional based on SEEING Him. Jesus said blessed are those who BELIEVE who have NOT seen.

Jesus saith unto him, Thomas, because thou hast seen me, thou hast believed: blessed are they that have not seen, and yet have believed.
(Joh 20:29)

Do I believe Jesus or you, friend ???
The verses Ive posted show that we MUST believe.

If any of you lacks wisdom, let him ask of God, who gives to all generously and without reproach, and it shall be given to him. But let him ask in faith, doubting nothing, for he that doubts is like a wave of the sea driven and tossed by the wind. For let not that man suppose that he shall receive anything from the Lord;
(Jas 1:5-7)

Jesus saith unto him, Thomas, because thou hast seen me, thou hast believed: blessed are they that have not seen, and yet have believed.
(Joh 20:29)

What is the limit to "true belief"? Don't you think that, for example, the Flat Earth Society, who believe in a flat earth, is a ridiculous concept? They have no proof, and the earth has been observed from space to be spherical. Yet, they continue to grasp onto traditional beliefs simply because they don't want to let go of them.

God has proven Himself to me enough for me to KNOW that He exists without SEEING Him.
Christians have His Spirit, what do flat earthers have ?

The same concept applies here

Im afraid it doesnt.

if the God of Abraham, Isaac and Moses (our God: the Father, Son of God and Holy Spirit) was proven to be imaginary in the distant future, and instead it had been proven that god was, in fact, a man made concept, or that there were a multitude of gods,

So you supposedly believe in and love something that may or may not be real ?
That is a contradiction.

all with different purposes in the universe, would you continue to grasp onto false beliefs and traditions like the Flat Earth Society does today, in spite of outstanding and irrefutable evidence?

*IF* you think that He could be man made, then HOW CAN you believe or have faith in Him as He REQUIRES ?
And its HARDLY the same, friend. God has given us His SPIRIT whereby we know we are His.
Flat Earthers are hardly comparable.
I hope you have better than this nonsense to present.

 

[Vic C.]

:Moderator's notes:

readers, please read Handy and Josh' posts. These are living examples of how to lift up and edify one who has doubts at times. Borderline condescending remarks don't usually help one bit, just the opposite; they could have a negative effect.

Just something to think about.:

 

[follower of Christ]

I agree Vic

What I dont agree with is comparing something like flat earth absurdity with faith in God as the flat earther has not been given what Christians have been...Gods Spirit.
Its rather annoying on my end, as much as it is for others, to hear someone basically telling me that I DONT really believe as I have said very clearly that I do.
If folks dont want a jab in their direction, then they ought to learn not to do it themselves.
Im more than willing to try to edify and help uplift someone, but its a bit hard to do when *I* know what *I* believe and this person tells me that I dont or cant and is sarcastic about it. THEN They basically tell us that NO one CAN Believe when GODS WORD SAYS we CAN and MUST.

True biblical faith is not halfhearted and its is CERTAINLY not this non-belief that kenan has presented whereby he thinks God may or may not be a figment of mans imagination.
That DOESNT mean that in a mans flesh that he can never have questions and equate those questions with doubt about Gods existence.
I have tons of questions that need answers. That doesnt mean that I dont believe in God 100%.

 

[Guest]

Doubt is to be unconvinced. Belief is the acceptance of an idea as true. Knowledge is the acceptance of an idea as true and lacking any doubt. This means knowledge is a form of belief. It is not possible to have doubt and knowledge. It is possible to have doubt and belief.

 

[follower of Christ]

Doubt is to be unconvinced. Belief is the acceptance of an idea as true. Knowledge is the acceptance of an idea as true and lacking any doubt. This means knowledge is a form of belief. It is not possible to have doubt and knowledge. It is possible to have doubt and belief.

Sorry but YOUR definitions defy Gods word in the matter...

If any of you lacks wisdom, let him ask of God, who gives to all generously and without reproach, and it shall be given to him. But let him ask in faith, doubting nothing, for he that doubts is like a wave of the sea driven and tossed by the wind. For let not that man suppose that he shall receive anything from the Lord;
(Jas 1:5-7)

&

But without faith it is impossible to please him: for he that cometh to God must believe that he is, and that he is a rewarder of them that diligently seek him.
(Heb 11:6)

Can you show me where doubt is compatible with those, especially the first one ?
Cant very well NOT doubt that God will give me wisdom if I DO have doubts about His existence, now can I ? ;)

 

[Guest]

How can you have a love relationship with someone you don't 100% believe exists?

You seem uninterested in understanding my perspective, so rather than attempt to show you I will simply tell you.

There exists software applications called chatterbots. These applications are designed to have reasonable conversations with people. It is possible for people to have entire discussions with the software and never know they were speaking to a chatterbot. How do I know you are not a chatterbot?

Well, the truth is, I cannot know you are not a chatterbot. That is, I cannot possible be 100% certain you are not a software application. Yet, in spite of this, I still have a relationship with you. Granted, it is reasonable for me to believe you are not a chatterbox, but I still lack the necessary experience and data to conclude with certainty that you are not.

Likewise, even though I harbor doubts about God, I can still engage Him in a relationship -- even a loving relationship.

Remember, simply because you and others here find my perspective unlikely or difficult to understand does not make my perspective false.

 

[follower of Christ]

How can you have a love relationship with someone you don't 100% believe exists?

You seem uninterested in understanding my perspective, so rather than attempt to show you I will simply tell you.

There exists software applications called chatterbots. These applications are designed to have reasonable conversations with people. It is possible for people to have entire discussions with the software and never know they were speaking to a chatterbot. How do I know you are not a chatterbot?

Well, the truth is, I cannot know you are not a chatterbot. That is, I cannot possible be 100% certain you are not a software application. Yet, in spite of this, I still have a relationship with you. Granted, it is reasonable for me to believe you are not a chatterbox, but I still lack the necessary experience and data to conclude with certainty that you are not.

Likewise, even though I harbor doubts about God, I can still engage Him in a relationship -- even a loving relationship.

Remember, simply because you and others here find my perspective unlikely or difficult to understand does not make my perspective false.

Wonderful example, but its lacking one thing....the christian is given the SPIRIT of God...I dont see any such thing in a chatter box.
I also dont see anything in a chatterbox that says;

"But let him ask in faith, doubting nothing,"
or
"for he that cometh to God must believe that he is"

You folks keep trying to use man made philosophy and logic to reject what GODS word teaches us. Its no wonder you doubt.

 

[cyberjosh]

The world is full of persuasive arguments, hey, this Forum is full of persuasive arguments, and one of the most persuasive is that somehow a Christian can't really state emphatically and with no equivocation that God is and is a rewarder of those who seek Him. But, don't get caught up in that particular delusion, God wants to you be fully assured of not only His existence, but of the wealth of blessings that He has for us.

Amen! Preach it sister! Indeed persuasive arguments can be a snare sometimes, but when nothing else makes sense logically the Spirit assures us of the truth despite what the world and even our mind may tell us (for we are not so clever & intelligent as to never be mistaken), and the Spirit is able to tell us "This is the way, walk in it!"

God Bless,

~Josh

 

[cyberjosh]

What I dont agree with is comparing something like flat earth absurdity with faith in God as the flat earther has not been given what Christians have been...Gods Spirit.

Indeed, and I think another thing needs to be clarified as far as what "belief in God" really means. The unbelieving world around us has forced this phrase/statement/inquiry to take on a primary meaning of "Do you believe in God's existence?", but biblically this in fact is not what is primarily meant by 'belief in God' in Scripture. Biblical belief rather means placing your trust in God as your provider and believing that God will do what He says He will do and that He will keep His covenant promises with His people, because He is a covenant (and therefore also a jealous) God. But the poll was oriented more towards God's existence (which cannot address its greater meaning & significance), and on that count alone I can say with 100% certainty that I am personally assured of God's existence, but for me it is such a given point that I am beyond that basic and essential question for the Christian, and am now in the midst of living the Christian life in light of God's relationship to us. In that stage of belief in God, none of us can claim perfection of having faith, because we will at some point trust in ourselves, and trust in others, and in material things while in the flesh. Yet even then since we are not the author of our own faith but rather Christ, God will bring to a completion what he has begun in us (Phillipians 1:6), and even in that selfsame verse Paul began it by saying, "For I am sure of this very thing".

What it comes down to is that limiting the definition of 'belief in God' to solely "God's existence" is to waver at a key principle and truth and limits any mature understanding of God. The atheist puts himself into this position and never gets past the child-faith like basics to discuss what real belief in God is. God's existence is the pre-school stage of theological inquiry, interaction, and experience. If you do not move past it you cannot mature in your understanding of God.

God Bless,

~Josh

 

[follower of Christ]

There is also another aspect to true faith. God gives us each a portion of faith but we have some responsibility on our own part.
Here we see that if we lack in wisdom that we can ask of God and it will be given to us.
But we must ask in faith and NOT DOUBT. *IF* we doubt then we shouldnt expect God to give us the wisdom we seek.

If any of you lacks wisdom, let him ask of God, who gives to all generously and without reproach, and it shall be given to him. But let him ask in faith, doubting nothing, for he that doubts is like a wave of the sea driven and tossed by the wind. For let not that man suppose that he shall receive anything from the Lord;
(Jas 1:5-7)

Firstly, how can we not doubt when we ASK for wisdom if we DO have doubts about the existence of the One we from which we request wisdom ?
I cant doubt His existence, then NOT doubt that He will respond.

The passage says "let him ask in faith".
This very clearly offers us a option. If one couldnt ask without faith, then it seems a bit odd to instruct us TO ask in faith and to not doubt.
The passage is very clearly encouraging and instructing us to HAVE faith and NOT doubt at all. There isnt any way to mistake the intent here.

The point ?
Faith on OUR part is a choice. *I* decide to believe in God 100%. Its not some random factor that I may or may not have. God gives each of man a portion of faith and the man has responsibility to simply not doubt.

Philosophy, science and critical thinking have brainwashed men into believing that 'blind faith' is 'hypocrisy'...that its not ok to believe in something we cannot SEE with our eyes or test with our senses.
This is EXACTLY the kind of faith Jesus Christ tells us to have..."blessed is he who believes who has NOT seen".
Critical thinking has its place, but carried too far and it destroys any hope of true faith when we dont SEE with our eyes or touch with our hands.

Thomas was not lost because he didnt believe without seeing, I dont think. But Jesus definitely seemed to be more pleased with those who DID have blind faith in Him. Such as when He chastised those in the boat in the storm when they were afraid while He was asleep...'you of little faith'

When Jesus got into the boat, his disciples went with him. Suddenly a violent storm came up on the sea, so that the boat began to be swamped by the waves. Yet Jesus kept sleeping. They went to him and woke him up, saying, "Lord, save us! We're going to die!" He said to them, "Why are you afraid, you who have little faith?" Then he got up and rebuked the winds and the sea, and there was a great calm.
(Mat 8:23-26 ISV)

Certainly their flesh was afraid of dying, but Jesus is teaching them to BELIEVE. To have FAITH regardless of how things seem.
Why didnt Jesus just cause them to have 100% faith ? Certainly He could have.
But instead He rebukes them for not having that kind of faith, thus showing them that they OUGHT to have it.
He is teaching them TO have that kind of faith. Faith that just KNOWS.

Without faith it is impossible to please Him.
Those who come to Him MUST BELIEVE that He is.
When we ask Him for wisdom we must NOT doubt.
One cannot have genuine faith in something one does not truly believe exists.
WE have a responsibility in our faith. It is not some random thing that some get and some dont.
WE must DECIDE to believe without wavering.

 

[follower of Christ]

Indeed, and I think another thing needs to be clarified as far as what "belief in God" really means. The unbelieving world around us has forced this phrase/statement/inquiry to take on a primary meaning of "Do you believe in God's existence?", but biblically this in fact is not what is primarily meant by 'belief in God' in Scripture. Biblical belief rather means placing your trust in God as your provider and believing that God will do what He says He will do and that He will keep His covenant promises with His people, because He is a covenant (and therefore also a jealous) God. But the poll was oriented more towards God's existence (which cannot address its greater meaning & significance), and on that count alone I can say with 100% certainty that I am personally assured of God's existence, but for me it is such a given point that I am beyond that basic and essential question for the Christian, and am now in the midst of living the Christian life in light of God's relationship to us. In that stage of belief in God, none of us can claim perfection of having faith, because we will at some point trust in ourselves, and trust in others, and in material things while in the flesh. Yet even then since we are not the author of our own faith but rather Christ, God will bring to a completion what he has begun in us (Phillipians 1:6), and even in that selfsame verse Paul began it by saying, "For I am sure of this very thing".

What it comes down to is that limiting the definition of 'belief in God' to solely "God's existence" is to waver at a key principle and truth and limits any mature understanding of God. The atheist puts himself into this position and never gets past the child-faith like basics to discuss what real belief in God is. God's existence is the pre-school stage of theological inquiry, interaction, and experience. If you do not move past it you cannot mature in your understanding of God.

God Bless,

~Josh

Excellent post, Josh !

 

[coelacanth]

The atheist puts himself into this position and never gets past the child-faith like basics to discuss what real belief in God is.

This atheist disagrees on a technicality ;) I used to believe, took plenty of advanced theology and philosophy classes that delved much further into what "real belief in God" is. I later discarded faith altogether, yet still have access to the speculative mentality of the human attempt to understand an almighty, infinite, divine, perfect, omnipotent, omniscient, and omnibenevolent entity. I have the ability to discuss it, but it does not stand on an underlying belief that the discussion is based on reality. I do, however, find it an interesting and useful exercise to imagine such an entity at times. I do not believe there is an occupant of any seat that has those combined characteristics, but holding those characteristics as ideals is utilitarian.

 

[Guest]

The atheist puts himself into this position and never gets past the child-faith like basics to discuss what real belief in God is.

This may be a case where Courtier's Reply is actually appropriate. I can understand expecting the atheist to read and understand theological perspectives insofar as they are relevant to discussions about God's existence, but it would be unreasonable to expect the atheist to ponder how one should be baptized or what it means to live like a Christian.

 

[JoJo]

:Moderator's notes:

readers, please read Handy and Josh' posts. These are living examples of how to lift up and edify one who has doubts at times. Borderline condescending remarks don't usually help one bit, just the opposite; they could have a negative effect.

Just something to think about.:

Vic, I thought and thought about how my comments might be perceived. My flesh wants to apologize for sounding pushy or judgmental or for stepping on anyone's toes, but my spirit stands by all I've said. If any of my statements have been "borderline condescending" then it is the truth that offends, not my opinion. I've tried to be careful to put things as bluntly as I could without sounding offensive or hurting anyone's feelings, but sometimes the truth has to be served as it is. Putting icing on a rich dessert doesn't make it more palatable, it makes it harder to digest.

I can't apologize for speaking logic: Anything less than 100% belief is not belief, it is merely wishful thinking. If one entertains even the slightest doubt and gives it any merit, then belief discontinues and "weighing the evidence" ensues. But true faith, as Hebrews 11:1 tells us, is "evidence of things not seen."

 

[JoJo]

How can you have a love relationship with someone you don't 100% believe exists?

You seem uninterested in understanding my perspective, so rather than attempt to show you I will simply tell you.

There exists software applications called chatterbots. These applications are designed to have reasonable conversations with people. It is possible for people to have entire discussions with the software and never know they were speaking to a chatterbot. How do I know you are not a chatterbot?

Well, the truth is, I cannot know you are not a chatterbot. That is, I cannot possible be 100% certain you are not a software application. Yet, in spite of this, I still have a relationship with you. Granted, it is reasonable for me to believe you are not a chatterbox, but I still lack the necessary experience and data to conclude with certainty that you are not.

Likewise, even though I harbor doubts about God, I can still engage Him in a relationship -- even a loving relationship.

Remember, simply because you and others here find my perspective unlikely or difficult to understand does not make my perspective false.

I completely disagree. If I were a chatterbot and didn't exist in the real world, it would be impossible to have a real relationship with me. We couldn't talk on the telephone or meet in person. We would be limited to forum chatting. That is not a true relationship. You simply cannot have a love relationship with someone you don't 100% believe exists. You can play-act or fantasize, but you can't have a solid relationship.

It isn't that I find your perspective hard to understand. I'm not dense. I just find it illogical.

 

[JoJo]

The atheist puts himself into this position and never gets past the child-faith like basics to discuss what real belief in God is.

This atheist disagrees on a technicality ;) I used to believe, took plenty of advanced theology and philosophy classes that delved much further into what "real belief in God" is. I later discarded faith altogether, yet still have access to the speculative mentality of the human attempt to understand an almighty, infinite, divine, perfect, omnipotent, omniscient, and omnibenevolent entity. I have the ability to discuss it, but it does not stand on an underlying belief that the discussion is based on reality. I do, however, find it an interesting and useful exercise to imagine such an entity at times. I do not believe there is an occupant of any seat that has those combined characteristics, but holding those characteristics as ideals is utilitarian.

True belief doesn't waver and certainly doesn't discard faith altogether.

 

[Guest]

I completely disagree. If I were a chatterbot and didn't exist in the real world, it would be impossible to have a real relationship with me. We couldn't talk on the telephone or meet in person. We would be limited to forum chatting. That is not a true relationship. You simply cannot have a love relationship with someone you don't 100% believe exists. You can play-act or fantasize, but you can't have a solid relationship.

This is called the "No True Scotsman" fallacy.

I just find it illogical.

Yes, as I expect. It is because your perspective makes certain assumptions which necessitate the conclusion. My perspective does not share some of these assumptions. Therefore, if you wish to criticize my perspective you must show those assumptions are valid and reasonable.

The central assumption deals with belief. Your perspective assumptions belief is necessarily binary. Why is belief necessarily binary?

 

[coelacanth]

True belief doesn't waver and certainly doesn't discard faith altogether.

Drat! Seems as though minnesota has beaten me to pointing out the No True Scotsman fallacy here... but I agree with him :yes