SailorWriter
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I just want to my faith of God stronger than before. Thank you.
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Desire to be a vessel of honor unto the Lord Jesus Christ?
Join For His Glory for a discussion on how
https://christianforums.net/threads/a-vessel-of-honor.110278/
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Taking the time to pray? Christ is the answer in times of need
https://christianforums.net/threads/psalm-70-1-save-me-o-god-lord-help-me-now.108509/
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How to deal with doubt/weakness of faith as a Christian?
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Dorothy Mae
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As you can see I did but you did not specify. Next time specify.
Fair enough.
No but this is very common in church. They get talented musicians to play and the pastor tells us how wonderful the presence of God is when it is really just the music. This is very common.
I gave you scripture and you disagree with scripture and that is powerful Scripture. You need to argue with God Almighty as to who he says he loves and who he says He will come and dwell in then. I just copied it. I did not write it.
Too bad because Jesus said clearly, blessed are the pure in heart for they shall see God. Do you see the difference? God loves man true. But only the man whose deeds please the father has the joy of experiencing God revealing Himself and his ways. Jesus also said, "without holiness shall no man see God." Do you see the difference? We are talking walking with God like Enoch or Moses or Elijah or Jeremiah. God loves all men but God only reveals Himself to some and those some are always obedient. Always. No exceptions.
If you are assuming a feeling needs to precede obedience, then this is not the way the human heart works. If you are assuming that a love for God will well up and overwhelm another considerations and feelings a man has when faced with a clear choice of obedience, that you are mistaken in the way the human heart works. If you are assuming that obedience costs a man little because he will WANT to obey and have NO OTHER DESIRE, then you are mistaken in how the human heart works. Jesus himself did not want to obey and yet made himself do so. It was not painless. It was not easy. And he was not glad to do so but glad when he could finally say "it is finished." That is how obedience often works. And the joy afterwards is indescribable but afterwards. To these God reveals hIs heart. To these God can show Himself.
They were not really obedient. Jesus said they neglected the weightier matters of the law. They were disobedient.
I am sorry to be personal, but can you describe how you obeyed God this week please? Or pick something recently that you obeyed what God was telling you to do that is something you otherwise would not have wanted to do? I can give you lots of scriptures when men of God obeyed God and did not enjoy a moment of it, were not joyful nor enthusiastic, not fearless or power-filled. When a man wants to do what God wants anyway, that is of less value. When a man does what God wants that is the opposite of that man's desire, this is very valuable to God.
Here is I have to disagree. A person's faith is built by hearing and doing the word of God. The foolish man hears the word,, understands it but does not do it. The wise man hears and understands it as well, but the difference is he does it whether it happens to be something he'd like to do or not.
Dorothy Mae
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Tenchi
I will tell you how I know that God comes and reveals himself to the obedient because scripture. And I am absolutely certain that God reveals Himself ONLY to those who obey Him and it has to be a pattern, a way of life.
Obeying God requires you to forgive others. If we do not, He won't even forgive us. There are times when God asks us to ask humans to forgive us. This is NOT AT ALL PLEASANT and not something anyone wants to do. No one goes and ask forgiveness of someone else joyfully and so on. No one. It is humbling and painful. But if one wants God to walk with one fulfilling the desire to know Him, it is a must.
Out of my personal life, this week I was doing something God had told me to do for my health but was afraid as sometimes I get pain if I do. So I did a few and got up because I was afraid. He told me to do 15 repetitions. I told Him I was afraid and struggled. I knew that I was struggling with believing God and DOING what He said, or letting unbelief stop me from doing so. It was a clear moment of choice where faith was a choice denying my feelings. I asked him if 10 was OK, and He agreed and so I did 10. But it was not something I took joy in doing but was glad afterwards as all obedience leads to. I have to say I was glad when it was done. That is very often how real obedience is. One is glad when it is done unless one's desire and God's are the same. One NEVER loses one's desire but coming to know Him changes one's desire to wanting to please Him.
But from Biblical observation of others and my own life, it is not such that one's own desire and God's desire always match completely. We are always our own person and have our own desires. We are not swallowed up into Him losing who we are.
I will tell you how I know that God comes and reveals himself to the obedient because scripture. And I am absolutely certain that God reveals Himself ONLY to those who obey Him and it has to be a pattern, a way of life.
Obeying God requires you to forgive others. If we do not, He won't even forgive us. There are times when God asks us to ask humans to forgive us. This is NOT AT ALL PLEASANT and not something anyone wants to do. No one goes and ask forgiveness of someone else joyfully and so on. No one. It is humbling and painful. But if one wants God to walk with one fulfilling the desire to know Him, it is a must.
Out of my personal life, this week I was doing something God had told me to do for my health but was afraid as sometimes I get pain if I do. So I did a few and got up because I was afraid. He told me to do 15 repetitions. I told Him I was afraid and struggled. I knew that I was struggling with believing God and DOING what He said, or letting unbelief stop me from doing so. It was a clear moment of choice where faith was a choice denying my feelings. I asked him if 10 was OK, and He agreed and so I did 10. But it was not something I took joy in doing but was glad afterwards as all obedience leads to. I have to say I was glad when it was done. That is very often how real obedience is. One is glad when it is done unless one's desire and God's are the same. One NEVER loses one's desire but coming to know Him changes one's desire to wanting to please Him.
But from Biblical observation of others and my own life, it is not such that one's own desire and God's desire always match completely. We are always our own person and have our own desires. We are not swallowed up into Him losing who we are.
Tenchi
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The context of my request should have cued you to what I was wanting, Dorothy Mae.
Yes, it is. But not in my life as you seem to imply was the case.
And the passages I gave you, Dorothy Mae? I don't disagree with the Scripture you cited, only with your handling of it.
No, I don't. I have no argument with Him on this head at all, only with your views on what He has said in His word about who He loves (and doesn't).
There are none who are so, Dorothy Mae. Apart from the perfect righteousness of Christ, there is "none righteous, no, not one." (Romans 3:10, 23) In love, God has extended this righteousness to all sinners who will, by faith, receive it.
Do you? What you are describing is the difference between mere relationship to God and fellowship with Him.
Yes, right.
Not a feeling, an emotion, but desire. Desire gives rise to emotions but can exist quite independent of them. Like the desire for, say, water, or food, or sleep, or the desire to get a cavity filled, or to build a shed, or whatever. I wouldn't say being thirsty is an emotion, nor would I say that the desire to change the oil in my car is an emotion, either. So, no, I don't think some particular emotion needs to exist in order for obedience to happen.
A deep desire for God does overcome other, lesser, sinful desires, prompting obedience to God's commands that is joyful and persistent. This is how my heart works. I don't know about yours, though...
And when a contest between a strong, sinful desire and a command of God confronts me, I simply yield myself to the Spirit's control, knowing that such a contest is always, at bottom, an invitation to step out from under the Spirit's control. As I remain submitted to the Spirit's will and way, standing by faith on the truth of who I am in Christ, I am moved by the Spirit into God's will with power and joy, rather than the typical Christian experience of stuffing oneself down in order to obey God, failing as often as not to do so and growing exhausted by the effort.
Obedience to God can cost a believer almost everything, as it did Christ, Peter, John and Paul. But the cost is paid joyfully when love for God, a deep, over-riding desire for Him, is the motivation for doing so. This doesn't mean Paul enjoyed being stoned nearly to death, or that Jesus took delight in being crucified. It does mean that in the midst of suffering in fulfilling the will of God, joy may still exist.
Hebrews 12:2 (NASB)
2 fixing our eyes on Jesus, the author and perfecter of faith, who for the joy set before Him endured the cross, despising the shame, and has sat down at the right hand of the throne of God.
Philippians 3:7-8 (NASB)
7 But whatever things were gain to me, those things I have counted as loss for the sake of Christ.
8 More than that, I count all things to be loss in view of the surpassing value of knowing Christ Jesus my Lord, for whom I have suffered the loss of all things, and count them but rubbish so that I may gain Christ,
Paul is really clear here that love - desire for God (Christ) - has motivated the loss of the things he once counted as gain so that he might gain Christ. Fear, duty, obligation, religious piety - none of these things motivated Paul's pursuit of Jesus, only love. Which is at is should be (see: Matthew 22:36-38; 1 Corinthians 13:1-3)
No, he did not make himself. It was the joy of doing his Father's will that motivated Jesus to endure the cross. And Jesus took joy in obeying His Father's will despite suffering terribly for doing so because of how enormously he loved the Father. Jesus was also filled with the Spirit and in the power of Spirit acted as he did. (Luke 3:22; Luke 4:1; Luke 4:14; Luke 4:18; Matthew 12:15-18; Matthew 12:24-28; John 3:34-35, etc.) So, there was no making himself do anything. It was love of the Father and the power of the Spirit that empowered his sacrifice for sinners. It is the same for you and I.
Continued below.
Tenchi
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There is a kind of (perhaps) unintended equivocation going on in what you've written. Yes, obeying God sometimes involves suffering and that suffering is not itself pleasant or desirable. Such suffering, though, cannot quell the joy that love engenders in the one who suffers for God's sake, in fulfillment of His will. I trained in the martial arts for almost thirty years and endured a great deal of physical suffering in the process. While I didn't enjoy dislocated joints, broken teeth, bruises and sprains, I still took great joy in the training. In fact, if I hadn't had this joy - born of love - in training, I soon would have stopped. So, too, in my walk with God. It is joy in knowing and walking with the God I love that motivates obedience to Him even when suffering results from doing so. And no other motivation has been as powerful or as joy-producing in the midst of suffering (as opposed to afterward) as love has been in my life. This is why obedience to God doesn't start with action but with a heart condition, with desiring Him with all of my being (Matthew 22:36-38)
On some things, yes, they were. But not all. Like every hypocrite, they were obedient to God in some things. But their obedience did not arise from a desire for God, from a heart of love for Him, as Jesus pointed out.
All of my obedience to God these days happens within a state of constant submission to Him. Any time a thought, or feeling, or temptation to action confronts me that I know isn't of God, I submit to Him, to the Holy Spirit. And so long as the attitude, or thought, or temptation to wrong action persists, I continue to submit to God. Always, when the Spirit decides to do so, he moves me beyond the crossroad of choice between my will and God's, often with such subtlety and power that I don't realize 'til an hour or so later that the crossroad is long past and I've been walking down God's road easily and joyfully for awhile. This happens over and over every day and still astonishes me.
The more I walk in this experience of the power of the Spirit, submitted to him throughout each day, moved by his power through temptation and trial, the more excited about and desirous of this experience I am. It just gets better and better, my desire for God growing as a consequence, and the fruit of His life manifesting more and more in my living.
I am not by nature a bold, extroverted, charismatic person. My human, selfish reflex is to avoid conflict, to isolate and/or shrink back from aggression and the disfavor of others. But as I walk with God and He makes me increasingly useable to Himself, He is putting me in situations where I must endure persecution from those He has called me to serve. In my flesh, I would recoil from these situations, flee from them like they were the plague. But under the control of the Holy Spirit, strengthened, settled and guided by him, I find myself saying and doing things that are completely unlike my "normal" self-directed Self, taking joy in the censure of others because I know that I do so in the course of the fulfillment of my Heavenly Father's will. So long as me and God are good, increasingly I simply don't care what others think of me, or how they respond to those things God directs me to say and do.
How is this disagreeing with what I wrote? You appear to be agreeing with me here. In the hearing, what is a person doing? Taking in knowledge. And once they have, they may act upon it. No one can have faith in that about which they know nothing.
This doesn't contradict what I wrote about knowledge preceding and giving rise to belief and action. All you've described here is someone who stops short of the last step and one who doesn't. Yes, there are both kinds of people; I've not denied this. But in both cases, the order of things regarding faith is just as Paul described to Timothy.
Dorothy Mae
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You have some valid points here and I fear that the only way I can point out the differences between what I am trying to communicate and what you are thinking is to ask you if you always, 100% obey the Holy Spirit such that you never have to make yourself so any unpleasant obedience to God and that this is confirmed by those who know you. If the situation in your heart is as you say, that obeying God is joyful, then it ought to be 100% accomplished as we have no problem doing that which is joyful. You are full of loving and kindness and gentleness and meekness towards other people 100% of the time for that is what he commands and you claim his commands to you are nothing but joy. So it must be easy and other people must find you to be like Jesus in how you treat them, right?
I will point out that Jesus begged God not to have to go to the cross. There was no joy in "but thy will be done" but raw making himself do it, as I describe. The Bible says he despised the shame. There is no joy in despising. The prophet Jonah did not find obedience to God joyful. Peter was told he would be taken to where he did not want to go. Jesus told us to forgive those who sin against us which is a command that we much obey but it is not joyful nor even pleasant.
I am sorry I have to get down to the nitty gritty but I am a scientist and we test theories in real life. Does the theology in the head match the behavior or outcome in real life. That is how I was able to tell another poster than I believe the Bible is true. It is because what it teaches matches real life, if one does what it teaches.
Dorothy Mae
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Yes, I can agree with that although the obedience I do generally does not involve suffering. It is just not always pleasant and I am glad when it is done in those cases. The easiest example is one people do not do these days, but ask someone else to forgive your for the wrong you did to them. No one finds that pleasant or joyful. No one suffers (except pride) in doing so. Anyone who does this is glad when it is over.
Where did Jesus tell them that their problem was that they did not love God and so their obedience to the smaller matters of the law (weighing out the spices) was just a lack of love? He told them that they neglect the weightier matters of the law. I do not think not obeying God in all things is not being a hypocrite. A hypocrite is an actor who presents a picture of themselves to men but is not really that way.
OK, so that is a kind of experience I gather in sharing your faith and resisting temptation. How are you at treating those who live with you? What do they say of you? Do they agree that the Holy Spirit is manifesting in you in power and that you treat others as you would like to be treated on an astounding level?
The reason I ask is because if you tell others that pose the question as to how to deal with weak faith that they need to muster up some internal wherewithal or wait until joy overcomes their doubt, you are teaching in internal kind of "wait until you want to obey God with joy before you obey Him" or am I mistaken? Say a person feels God wants them to give 100 bucks to someone at church. What is they do not feel like doing so? Should they wait until they feel joy welling up within them to obey?
Ok, the believers here have for the most part already taken in knowledge and long ago. They still struggle with a weak faith and they ask the question as to what to do. What would you say besides take in more knowledge? Maybe this is where we differ but maybe we do not differ.
Yes, but the one struggling with a weak faith is not lacking in knowledge. They read the Bible and they struggle with believing. They have taken in knowledge and lots of it. Now what? Maybe I err but I think you are saying to take in more knowledge. I say to start doing whatever the knowledge you got tells you whether you feel like it or not.
And if a man does this, over and over again, obeys whether there is joy there or not, and I mean obeys the Holy Spirit speaking to him and that is generally in reference to how he treats others, he will find his faith grow and with time, he will find that more of the Holy Spirit dwells in Him. Knowledge is not the key to having the Father and Son love you and come and dwell in you. Obedience is the key. Do you agree?
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Dorothy Mae
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Tenchi
I have neglected to tell you that I rejoice at your description of your walk with Him. It is delightful and I praise God for your life and how you walk with Him. You honor Him with you joy and words and I was blessed to read your description of your walk. This needs to be said. Thank you!!
I have neglected to tell you that I rejoice at your description of your walk with Him. It is delightful and I praise God for your life and how you walk with Him. You honor Him with you joy and words and I was blessed to read your description of your walk. This needs to be said. Thank you!!
To believe in Christ being rejected, least esteemed, meek, lowly, having nowhere to lay His head, coming with the love of God, doing well to all, preaching the righteousness of the Kingdom of Heaven, taking no thought for our lives, loosing your life for His sake, abasing ourselves, and recognising that all the leaders and advisers around Jesus believed and follow the exact opposite to what is right.
People have faith for themselves, live their life for themselves, join forums only for debate, for self exaltation, thinking knowledge is a start with knowing God, when love is, what Jesus had for us to lay His life down, and how we come to believe in Him in the same love He pours into our heart.
People cannot advise about faith, because faith is the gift of God, and the gift of God are all the things He has shred with us, to give a chance to know who deceives, and who follows Christ in sincerity. ( the Apostles of the Lord are unfeigned examples, who also had nothing, nowhere to live, persecuted to the death, for the name of Jesus Christ)
People have faith for themselves, live their life for themselves, join forums only for debate, for self exaltation, thinking knowledge is a start with knowing God, when love is, what Jesus had for us to lay His life down, and how we come to believe in Him in the same love He pours into our heart.
People cannot advise about faith, because faith is the gift of God, and the gift of God are all the things He has shred with us, to give a chance to know who deceives, and who follows Christ in sincerity. ( the Apostles of the Lord are unfeigned examples, who also had nothing, nowhere to live, persecuted to the death, for the name of Jesus Christ)
Dorothy Mae
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Jesus criticized his disciples for their lack of faith which makes it clear that not all faith is a gift. He would have otherwise blamed God, the Giver, not them.
So according to Jesus we are responsible for our faith or lack thereof, not God. Not as comfortable as blaming God but nevertheless true.
Should atheists and insincere Christians be criticised for their lack of faith yes, as they have nothing good without it, then they know they need to find it. ( no atheists nor insincere Christin can have kindness without charity, and charity we put on which is Jesus Christ.)
Faith works by love, the Holy Ghost was given after Christ was glorified. The love of God was then shed abroad into our hearts, by the Holy Ghost which was given to us.
Galatians 5:6 For in Jesus Christ neither circumcision availeth any thing, nor uncircumcision; but faith which worketh by love.
John 7:39 (But this spake he of the Spirit, which they that believe on him should receive: for the Holy Ghost was not yet given; because that Jesus was not yet glorified.)
Romans 5:5 And hope maketh not ashamed; because the love of God is shed abroad in our hearts by the Holy Ghost which is given unto us.
People love ( fast for) strife and debate, they never try the love of God instead, ( without strife, without debate, they NEVER REPENT, being also filled with all unrighteousness.)
Isaiah 58:4 Behold, ye fast for strife and debate, and to smite with the fist of wickedness: ye shall not fast as ye do this day, to make your voice to be heard on high.
Romans 1:29 Being filled with all unrighteousness, fornication, wickedness, covetousness, maliciousness; full of envy, murder, debate, deceit, malignity; whisperers,
2 Corinthians 12:20 For I fear, lest, when I come, I shall not find you such as I would, and that I shall be found unto you such as ye would not: lest there be debates, envyings, wraths, strifes, backbitings, whisperings, swellings, tumults:
Faith works by love, the Holy Ghost was given after Christ was glorified. The love of God was then shed abroad into our hearts, by the Holy Ghost which was given to us.
Galatians 5:6 For in Jesus Christ neither circumcision availeth any thing, nor uncircumcision; but faith which worketh by love.
John 7:39 (But this spake he of the Spirit, which they that believe on him should receive: for the Holy Ghost was not yet given; because that Jesus was not yet glorified.)
Romans 5:5 And hope maketh not ashamed; because the love of God is shed abroad in our hearts by the Holy Ghost which is given unto us.
People love ( fast for) strife and debate, they never try the love of God instead, ( without strife, without debate, they NEVER REPENT, being also filled with all unrighteousness.)
Isaiah 58:4 Behold, ye fast for strife and debate, and to smite with the fist of wickedness: ye shall not fast as ye do this day, to make your voice to be heard on high.
Romans 1:29 Being filled with all unrighteousness, fornication, wickedness, covetousness, maliciousness; full of envy, murder, debate, deceit, malignity; whisperers,
2 Corinthians 12:20 For I fear, lest, when I come, I shall not find you such as I would, and that I shall be found unto you such as ye would not: lest there be debates, envyings, wraths, strifes, backbitings, whisperings, swellings, tumults:
Faith is the gift of God, it is the grace of God we are saved by, and faith is given by the Spirit. ( those who have the Spirit can confess and not deny, that the gift of the Holy Ghost is after Jesus Christ died for us and rose again, to be glorified.)
Ephesians 2:8 For by grace are ye saved through faith; and that not of yourselves: it is the gift of God:
1 Corinthians 12:9 To another faith by the same Spirit; to another the gifts of healing by the same Spirit;
Ephesians 2:8 For by grace are ye saved through faith; and that not of yourselves: it is the gift of God:
1 Corinthians 12:9 To another faith by the same Spirit; to another the gifts of healing by the same Spirit;
Faith is believing in your heart to righteousness, then you are reborn of the Spirit to do righteousness, knowing Christ is righteous.
Romans 3:26 To declare, I say, at this time his righteousness: that he might be just, and the justifier of him which believeth in Jesus.
Romans 10:9 That if thou shalt confess with thy mouth the Lord Jesus, and shalt believe in thine heart that God hath raised him from the dead, thou shalt be saved.
10 For with the heart man believeth unto righteousness; and with the mouth confession is made unto salvation.
1 John 2:1 My little children, these things write I unto you, that ye sin not. And if any man sin, we have an advocate with the Father, Jesus Christ the righteous:
1 John 2:29 If ye know that he is righteous, ye know that every one that doeth righteousness is born of him.
Romans 3:26 To declare, I say, at this time his righteousness: that he might be just, and the justifier of him which believeth in Jesus.
Romans 10:9 That if thou shalt confess with thy mouth the Lord Jesus, and shalt believe in thine heart that God hath raised him from the dead, thou shalt be saved.
10 For with the heart man believeth unto righteousness; and with the mouth confession is made unto salvation.
1 John 2:1 My little children, these things write I unto you, that ye sin not. And if any man sin, we have an advocate with the Father, Jesus Christ the righteous:
1 John 2:29 If ye know that he is righteous, ye know that every one that doeth righteousness is born of him.
There is no faith on earth right now, then the best way is not to seek faithful advise from them:
Luke 18:8 I tell you that he will avenge them speedily. Nevertheless when the Son of man cometh, shall he find faith on the earth?
Here is the advice of Christ at this time though:
Luke 21:34 And take heed to yourselves, lest at any time your hearts be overcharged with surfeiting, and drunkenness, and cares of this life, and so that day come upon you unawares.
35 For as a snare shall it come on all them that dwell on the face of the whole earth.
36 Watch ye therefore, and pray always, that ye may be accounted worthy to escape all these things that shall come to pass, and to stand before the Son of man.
Luke 18:8 I tell you that he will avenge them speedily. Nevertheless when the Son of man cometh, shall he find faith on the earth?
Here is the advice of Christ at this time though:
Luke 21:34 And take heed to yourselves, lest at any time your hearts be overcharged with surfeiting, and drunkenness, and cares of this life, and so that day come upon you unawares.
35 For as a snare shall it come on all them that dwell on the face of the whole earth.
36 Watch ye therefore, and pray always, that ye may be accounted worthy to escape all these things that shall come to pass, and to stand before the Son of man.
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Faith is described differently in the Bible:
Heb 11:1- Now faith is the assurance of things hoped for, the conviction of things not seen.
Are you ASSURED He exists- and what does it take to convince you?
Stories- or reality?
Dorothy Mae
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There certainly is faith in the earth!