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How to defend the trinity!

D-D-W said:
Not really. They were Jews who stayed Jews their entire life. Jews who understood they had encountered the Jewish Messiah and started living the New Covenant which was with Israel and Judah. Jeremiah 31.31
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"Now it was in Antioch that the disciples were first called Christians." The earliest believers were almost all Jews (with very few exceptions). They were Jews who stayed Jews their entire life.
 
jaybo said:
They were Jews and Christians. They are not mutually exclusive. Ask any Messianic Jews if they aren't Jews any longer -- then run!
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They were Jews who became Christian.

"Messianic Jews" began out of the Hippie movement in the 1970s in the United States. It's a far cry from Abraham.
 
D-D-W said:
Not really. They were Jews who stayed Jews their entire life. Jews who understood they had encountered the Jewish Messiah and started living the New Covenant which was with Israel and Judah. Jeremiah 31.31
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You are conflating a Jew who becomes Christian with the beliefs of Judiasm. No practicing Jew believes God is a Trinity of Persons.
 
jaybo said:
But the author of Genesis -- at least one of them -- wrote "Then God said, “Let Us make man in Our image, according to Our likeness"

Genesis 1:26, NET translator's note: The plural form of the verb has been the subject of much discussion through the years, and not surprisingly several suggestions have been put forward. Many Christian theologians interpret it as an early hint of plurality within the Godhead, but this view imposes later trinitarian concepts on the ancient text. Some have suggested the plural verb indicates majesty, but the plural of majesty is not used with verbs. C. Westermann (Genesis, 1:145) argues for a plural of “deliberation” here, but his proposed examples of this use (2 Sam 24:14; Isa 6:8) do not actually support his theory. In 2 Sam 24:14 David uses the plural as representative of all Israel, and in Isa 6:8 the Lord speaks on behalf of his heavenly court. In its ancient Israelite context the plural is most naturally understood as referring to God and his heavenly court (see 1 Kgs 22:19-22; Job 1:6-12; 2:1-6; Isa 6:1-8). (The most well-known members of this court are God’s messengers, or angels. In Gen 3:5 the serpent may refer to this group as “gods/divine beings.” See the note on the word “evil” in 3:5.) If this is the case, God invites the heavenly court to participate at the creation of humankind (perhaps in the role of offering praise, see Job 38:7), but he himself is the one who does the actual creative work (v. 27). Of course, this view does assume that the members of the heavenly court possess the divine “image” in some way. Since the image is closely associated with rulership, perhaps they share the divine image in that they, together with God and under his royal authority, are the executive authority over the world.
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Once again, "Us" can be two, three, four, five...ten...one hundred.
 
jaybo said:
I am a Jew who believes that God is a trinity of persons. I was born a Jew -- all my ancestors were Jews -- but became a Christian many years ago.
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Exactly. You became Christian.

No practicing Jew believes God is a Trinity of Persons. That is a uniquely Christian belief.
jaybo said:
I suggest you look into Messianic Judaism a little deeper than you apparently have.
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Once again, "Messianic Judaism" was born out of the Hippie movement in the 1970s in the United States. It's a far cry from the religion of Abraham.
 
Walpole said:
However, the people to whom God originally revealed Himself do not. As you know, Jews are not Trinitarians.
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What is a Trinitarian?


You sure seem to know a lot of Jews from the Old Testament, and what they believed.
 
JLB said:
What is a Trinitarian?
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Someone who believes...

1. In the One Divine Nature, there are Three Persons – the Father, the Son (also called the Word, or Logos) and the Holy Spirit.
2. The Father is not the Son, the Son is not the Holy Spirit, the Holy Spirit is not the Father – in other words, no one of the Persons is either of the others.
3. The Father is God, the Son is God and the Holy Spirit is God.
4. There are not three Gods, but one God.
JLB said:
You sure seem to know a lot of Jews from the Old Testament, and what they believed.
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You cannot understand Christianity apart from Judaism. For Christianity is the fulfillment of Judaism. The Gospel is the very proclamation that Jesus is Israel's promised messiah and is now Lord of all.
 
Walpole said:
Exactly. You became Christian.

No practicing Jew believes God is a Trinity of Persons. That is a uniquely Christian belief.

Once again, "Messianic Judaism" was born out of the Hippie movement in the 1970s in the United States. It's a far cry from the religion of Abraham.
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You seem dead set in your beliefs, so there is no point in discussing this with you. I am a Jew who has accepted Jesus as my Messiah, just like the first believers. You can tell me otherwise but I know precisely who I am. And you don't.
 
jaybo said:
You seem dead set in your beliefs, so there is no point in discussing this with you. I am a Jew who has accepted Jesus as my Messiah, just like the first believers. You can tell me otherwise but I know precisely who I am. And you don't.
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Best wishes to you.
 
Walpole said:
Someone who believes...

1. In the One Divine Nature, there are Three Persons – the Father, the Son (also called the Word, or Logos) and the Holy Spirit.
2. The Father is not the Son, the Son is not the Holy Spirit, the Holy Spirit is not the Father – in other words, no one of the Persons is either of the others.
3. The Father is God, the Son is God and the Holy Spirit is God.
4. There are not three Gods, but one God.

You cannot understand Christianity apart from Judaism. For Christianity is the fulfillment of Judaism. The Gospel is the very proclamation that Jesus is Israel's promised messiah and is now Lord of all.
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I believe...there are three that bear witness in heaven: the Father, the Word, and the Holy Spirit; and these three are one… because I’m a follower of Jesus Christ; a Christian.


Yet if anyone suffers as a Christian, let him not be ashamed, but let him glorify God in this matter. 1 Peter 4:16


I don’t find Trinitarian in the Bible, or Catholic.





JLB
 
Walpole said:
They were Jews who became Christian.

"Messianic Jews" began out of the Hippie movement in the 1970s in the United States. It's a far cry from Abraham.
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Actually the Modern Messianic Jewish movement started in the 1880s.
 
JLB said:
What is a "practicing Jew"?
I thought Jew referred to a descendant of Abraham, and more specifically Judah.
How does one practice being a Jew. :shrug
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Perhaps a better term would be "observant" Jew meaning following (observing) the Torah commands.
 
Jews or Jewish people are members of an ethnoreligious group and a nation originating from the Israelites and Hebrews of historical Israel and Judah. Wikipedia
 
Walpole said:
No practicing Jew believes God is a Trinity of Persons. That is a uniquely Christian belief.
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I know many who would vehemently disagree with you on that point.

Your statement betrays your understanding that Judaism and Christianity are supposed to be 2 different religions. They are not. Judaism was supposed to progress from Mosaic covenant based to New Covenant based; just as it did from the Abrahamic covenant to the Mosaic covenant.

That is STILL Judaism, just a New Covenant Judaism.
 
JLB said:
I believe...there are three that bear witness in heaven: the Father, the Word, and the Holy Spirit; and these three are one… because I’m a follower of Jesus Christ; a Christian.


Yet if anyone suffers as a Christian, let him not be ashamed, but let him glorify God in this matter. 1 Peter 4:16


I don’t find Trinitarian in the Bible, or Catholic.





JLB
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You just made the point of the OP and my previous point: You cannot arrive at an orthodox Trinitarian theology using sola Scriptura.

There is nothing new under the sun. I've always said Protestantism is really just a hodge-podge of previously condemned heresies. The non-Trinitarians of antiquity, most notably led by Arius, famously used this attack - that the Trinity is not found in the Scriptures - against the Catholics.
 
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