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How to defend the trinity!

D-D-W said:
I know many who would vehemently disagree with you on that point.
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Can you demonstrate any Jewish prophet who taught God is three Divine Persons?
D-D-W said:
Your statement betrays your understanding that Judaism and Christianity are supposed to be 2 different religions. They are not. Judaism was supposed to progress from Mosaic covenant based to New Covenant based; just as it did from the Abrahamic covenant to the Mosaic covenant.
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They are two different religions because the Jews rejected Jesus. This is Judaism 101.

(The Incarnation and the Trinity imply one another.)
D-D-W said:
That is STILL Judaism, just a New Covenant Judaism.
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I would say Christianity is the fulfillment of Judaism.

(Scripture is quite explicit what the New Covenant is ---> The Eucharist)
 
Walpole said:
Moishe Rosen is one of main the progenitors. He was a 1970s hippie from California.
Jews For Jesus was his baby.
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And he broke J4J off of a Messianic Jewish organization now called Chosen People Ministries who celebrated their 125th anniversary 2 years ago. It was founded by Rabbi Leopold Cohn in New York in 1894.

Side note: we have many evangelists in Russia. When the USSR fell there was a massive influx of cult groups like Hare Krishnas, Falun Gong, Jehovah Witnesses, et al. They saw the formerly enforced atheist land as a ripe field. So the government decided that ONLY groups present in Russia before the 1917 revolution could be allowed to set up shop. Chassidic Rabbi Joseph Rabinowitz set up several Messianic synagogues in Russia, Muldova and the Ukraine in the 1880s and 90s. Messianic evangelist Johnathan Bernis has led thousands of Jews to faith in Messiah there in the past 2 decades.
 
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Walpole said:
You just made the point of the OP and my previous point: You cannot arrive at an orthodox Trinitarian theology using sola Scriptura.

There is nothing new under the sun. I've always said Protestantism is really just a hodge-podge of previously condemned heresies. The non-Trinitarians of antiquity, most notably led by Arius, famously used this attack - that the Trinity is not found in the Scriptures - against the Catholics.
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Since you've always said Protestantism is really just a hodge-podge of previously condemned heresies, you've always been wrong.

The Bible clearly says that there are three -- Father, Son, and Holy Spirit.
 
Earlier it was claimed by Walpole that you can't be a Jew and a Christian. To set the record straight -- straight out of Scripture -- Paul wrote in Acts 22:3, " “I am a Jew, born in Tarsus in Cilicia, but brought up in this city, educated with strictness under Gamaliel according to the law of our ancestors, and was zealous for God just as all of you are today." Notice the present tense: I am a Jew.

So who is correct, the great Apostle Paul or Walpole?
 
jaybo said:
Since you've always said Protestantism is really just a hodge-podge of previously condemned heresies, you've always been wrong.

The Bible clearly says that there are three -- Father, Son, and Holy Spirit.
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That is not the Trinity, as even Mormons and Oneness Pentecostals believe that.

It is becoming more obvious with each subsequent post in this thread that many do not even understand what the dogma of the Trinity is.

The dogma defines the essence of Christ. In other words, it defines who Christ is (homooúsios with the Father). Everything else flows from this point.

It answers the most important question ever posed: “Who do you say that I am?”
 
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D-D-W said:
So can you find scripture that says "sola scriptura" is correct? NO.
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You don't have to find the words "sola scriptura" to know that the Bible is 100% true and correct and that non-Scriptural doctrine is wrong. If the teachings of men differ from the teachings of the Bible, it's obvious which is correct.

Anything that contradicts Scripture is ecclesiastical propaganda. Period.
 
jaybo said:
You don't have to find the words "sola scriptura" to know that the Bible is 100% true and correct and that non-Scriptural doctrine is wrong. If the teachings of men differ from the teachings of the Bible, it's obvious which is correct.

Anything that contradicts Scripture is ecclesiastical propaganda. Period.
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Oh I agree on that. But that is not the essence of sola scriptura.

The essence is that one needs NO OUTSIDE information at all, including cultural knowledge, linguistic nuances, etc. Nothing that is not contained in the text itself. There is no scripture that excludes those things.
 
D-D-W said:
Oh I agree on that. But that is not the essence of sola scriptura.

The essence is that one needs NO OUTSIDE information at all, including cultural knowledge, linguistic nuances, etc. Nothing that is not contained in the text itself. There is no scripture that excludes those things.
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Sola scriptura ("by scripture alone" in English) is a theological doctrine held by some Protestant Christian denominations that posits the Christian scriptures as the sole infallible source of authority for Christian faith and practice. While the scriptures' meaning is mediated through many kinds of subordinate authority—such as the ordinary teaching offices of a denominated church, the ecumenical creeds and the councils of the Catholic church, amongst others—sola scriptura in contrast rejects any original infallible authority other than the Bible. In this view, all subordinate authority is derived from the authority of the scriptures, and is therefore subject to reform when compared to the teaching of the Bible. (source: wikipedia)
 
OzSpen said:
You didn't answer my question.
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This was my original question.

You never answered.


I believe we can all agree that the Father, the Son and the Holy Spirit are one.

There is no need to undermine the validity of another persons version of the Bible.


JLB
 
Walpole said:
This is a great post.

However, the Trinity IS just a New Testament doctrine, as the Jews are not Trinitarians.
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Gen 1:1 states, "In the beginning God (Elohim) created the heavens and the earth." Elohim is plural. Are Trinitarians exclusive to the NT?

Oz
 
D-D-W said:
And he broke J4J off of a Messianic Jewish organization now called Chosen People Ministries who celebrated their 125th anniversary 2 years ago. It was founded by Rabbi Leopold Cohn in New York in 1894.

Side note: we have many evangelists in Russia. When the USSR fell there was a massive influx of cult groups like Hare Krishnas, Falun Gong, Jehovah Witnesses, et al. They saw the formerly enforced atheist land as a ripe field. So the government decided that ONLY groups present in Russia before the 1917 revolution could be allowed to set up shop. Chassidic Rabbi Joseph Rabinowitz set up several Messianic synagogues in Russia, Muldova and the Ukraine in the 1880s and 90s. Messianic evangelist Johnathan Bernis has led thousands of Jews to faith in Messiah there in the past 2 decades.
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Different movement...

en.wikipedia.org

Messianic Judaism - Wikipedia

en.wikipedia.org en.wikipedia.org
 
jaybo said:
The Bible clearly says that there are three -- Father, Son, and Holy Spirit.
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The Bible starts out talking about the Trinity in Genesis 1:1

"In the beginning God (Elohim) created the heavens and the earth"

The word Elohim is H430 and is the plural form of H433 "Eloha", so I can't understand the confusion about this issue.
 
Edward said:
The Bible starts out talking about the Trinity in Genesis 1:1

"In the beginning God (Elohim) created the heavens and the earth"

The word Elohim is H430 and is the plural form of H433 "Eloha", so I can't understand the confusion about this issue.
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Plural means more than one. Thus plural can mean two, three, four, five, ten, a hundred...a thousand.

Nowhere in Genesis or anywhere in the OT is God described as three (Trinity) Persons. You cannot arrive at an orthodox Trinitarian theology using sola Scriptura. This was Arius and his disciples' strongest argument. St. Athanasius, the great defender of orthodoxy, had to throw down the ultimate trump card against them...
 
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JLB said:
Do you believe the Father, the Son and the Holy Spirit are one?
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I've answered that question but you haven't dealt with the bibliology of the KJV, NKJV and Textus Receptus.

Oz
 
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Walpole said:
Plural means more than one. Thus plural can mean two, three, four, five, ten, a hundred...a thousand.

Nowhere in Genesis or anywhere in the OT is God described as three (Trinity) Persons. You cannot arrive at an orthodox Trinitarian theology using sola Scriptura. This was Arius and his disciples' strongest argument. St. Athanasius, the great defender of orthodoxy, had to throw down the ultimate trump card against them...
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Is Elohim of Gen 1:1 singular or plural?
 
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