How To Idenify FALSE Teachers!

[Elijah674]

The NT actually tells us that false teachers teach stuff that is contrary to what the NT says.
This is not interpretation or disputable matters.

So for example women in leadership, whilst potentially important, is a disputable matter because scripture can be provided to support both views.
Blessing homosexual relations would be a clear example of false teaching as there is not scripture to support it and scripture actually excludes and specifically condemns it.
It is also an issue that affects salvation. Indeed, 2 Peter 2 says false teachers introduce heresies, lgbt would be a good example.

James 2:10 has it just one way or the other! sun stuff or the Lord's REQUIREMENT! 1 John 3:4, Isa. 8:20. James 2:8-12, Eccl. 12:13-14, 1 John 2:4, Rev. 12:17 + IF YE LOVE ME KEEP MY COMMANDMENTS:yes:yes.

--Elijah

 

[Free]

What has resulted in the protestant milieu is a myriad of interpretations, all of equal validity but none that are actually the Truth of scripture.

This isn't the case in all circumstances. There certainly are doctrines to which all Protestants agree are essential, such as the Trinity, the virgin birth and the death and resurrection of Jesus.

 

[Elijah674]

This isn't the case in all circumstances. There certainly are doctrines to which all Protestants agree are essential, such as the Trinity, the virgin birth and the death and resurrection of Jesus.

You did leave out sunday worship + Rom. 13,s Protestant power from ibid 1-4.
--Elijah

 

[Jethro Bodine]

IF YE LOVE ME KEEP MY COMMANDMENTS:yes:yes.

"16 By their fruit you will recognize them.
20 Thus, by their fruit you will recognize them." (Matthew 7:16,20 NIV1984)


"22 ...the fruit of the Spirit is love..." (Galatians 5:22 NIV1984)


9 The commandments, “Do not commit adultery,†“Do not murder,†“Do not steal,†“Do not covet,†and whatever other commandment there may be, are summed up in this one rule: “Love your neighbor as yourself.†10 Love does no harm to its neighbor. Therefore love is the fulfillment of the law.' (Romans 13:9-10 NIV1984)

 

[Cassian]

smaller,

Uh, no. The determinations were made by the Bishops and that what was delivered to the balance. It didn't come from a bottom up methodology.

NO, it comes from the top down. Christ/via the Holy Spirit, the Bishops are responsible to teach, but the Body is what is infallible, it has always been affirmed this way. Every Ecumenical Council was only declared Ecumencial after many years for the consensus to work through and then confirmed at the next one.

Then I'm guessing you have an EO or OO slant on these matters. The EO votes in their clergy, locally. The RCC certainly doesn't operate that way. Chalk up another differential for traditions.

IN the Orthodox Church the Bishop is the only and highest ecclesiastical officer. All bishops are of equal standing. The Church has always been colligual, consiliar and episcopal.

Well, I have the pleasure of seeing my fellow believers as saved regardless of EO, RCC or OO traditions.

You do realize that all people see themselves as saved. From MOrmons, Jehovah Witnessess and every other person, group, sect that has come along. There is a vast difference between man made gospels and self defined salvation than that of the Gospel of Christ as He delieved it and has preserved it.

Oh please. Who are you kidding? There is a super abundance of various reflections within each of the units as well. The matter of the 4 words is only the beginning of a mountain that will never be climbed until they all get off their high horses.
If you think it expedient to condemn other believers to possibly burn alive forever over the dispute on 4 words I'd suggest a severe form of spiritual myopia is upon such.

I am not the one who will condemn. Christ will be the judge. Christ gave us His revelation, it has been entrusted to the Church, that one same Gospel is still in effect today without change. Both Christ's Body and the Gospel which has been entrusted to it has been preserved in time and will be so until the end.
Man can change, ignore, soften that Gospel to his detriment, but the Gospel stays the same and its intent. I presume by your remarks that you don't really believe Christ can do what He promised He would do. Either that, you believe man has authority over a text and can develop whatever one desires and that becomes Truth. Could hardly be a unified Gospel once given and preserved by the Holy Spirit.

My understanding is that non-teaching body EO and OO members are in pretty much the same shape as the RCC laity, though there may be some difference in terms, such as in the EO all members are laity but some are teaching members.

When has the Gospel been restricted to non laity. It is the work and duty of every believer to witness to the Truth. It is the responsibility of the bishops to teach as it always has been. No man has authority to interpret scripture or anything else, never has had that authority.
This is where sola scriptura and the authority of individuals to supercede the authority of the Holy Spirit working within Christ's Church interprets from a text all these new innovative theories and doctrines. Which is why scripture stated that the Holy Spirit does not give prophecy for private interpretation.

Yes, I understand the various religious fantasies that are deployed to justify the structures of the authorities. Just as I understand the baptism of infants is what prompted some early church splits.

so you call it, but the Apostles had that authority as divinily inspired initiators of the Gospel they were given. Again, you can rail upon the Holy Spirit all you want, it does not change His Revelation and the authority of the Apostles to put into existance His Body here on earth.
I do not know of any splits over infant baptism, but even if that be so, that is a personal choice of some and for them to leave. That does not harm the unity of the Church nor the Gospel. Many believers have left the Church, Paul even wrote about some who left during his ministry. Man is free to accept Christ or reject HIm.

Look, orthodoxy in all it's forms is all 'self' defined and 'self' authorized and subject to no scrutiny but their own. They are all what I call 'closed loop' systems that stand on their own internal legal systems.

There is only one form of Orthodoxy. Why would you think that Christ or the Holy Spirit must be responsible to you or to any man? Seems you are much to modern and democratic and don't like the theocratic authority of Christ over His Church. Christ is the way, the ONLY way. YOu can accept His way or develop one of your own. You certainly are a free man.

So anything that is seen being churned out amongst these factions as 'ecumenical' is almost entirely outside of the official internal legal ground and is given to assuage the masses who are ignorant enough to buy their political statement follies.

I have no idea what you are even saying here. The Church has no outside legal ground. Are you saying that Christ is not really the authority or the Holy Spirit and you prefer, what? YOurself as supreme authority? And what has been churned out, I don't see any changes in 2000 years of Church doctrine from the beginning. The Ecumencial Councils were protecting the Gospel from false teachings and maintained the original Gospel given.
YOu seem to have a distaste for any authority unless it might be yours.

None of them will be giving up their particular thrones. As soon as they do their system falls and fails as 'the one true church.' So there will continue to be multiple 'one true churches.'

and to whom would Christ give up His Throne? There is ONLY ONe True Church because there is ONLY one Christ. It has been that way from the beginning. I am not discussing all other forms of churches, but the ONE TRue Church, The Church Christ established in the world at Pentacost. That original Church still is in existance in Jerusalem where it all started. It still exists in Antioch, in Alexandria. It has expanded to cover the world today, but it is the very same Church. It cannot fail, unless you also think that Christ is not supreme and that He lacks the power and authority to do so.
There is ONLY ONE TRUE Church today. Many may make that claim, but if you are to lazy to research the claims, that is your fault, no one elses. YOu should be a Berean and check out what you read or hear.

I am happy to see that Gods Word and Spirit continues to effectively work in the hearts of mankind regardless of the multiple 'one true churches.'

which is the purpose of the Gospel in its Truth, and the work of the Holy Spirit to lead all men to that Truth. That is why the Church exists and God is calling all men to Himself, His Church, His Body here on earth.
Satan can work as light as well. He has accomplished much to divide the world into hundreds of camps, many who assume that what they hear is actually Truth.

And I'd suggest you have a pale view of sola in general. The task of being fully convinced of anything remains solely in the conscience of the holder. No other man or sect can answer before God in Christ for matters of conscience.

Yes, this is why the world if composed of many religions. Man is free either to Accept Christ on His terms, or one can reject HIm and then develop whatever religion one desires. History is repleat with this phenonomon and is exemplfied by the practice of sola scriptura. Man always want to elevate himself as sole authority.

One of the reasons I left the RCC and would not adhere to EO or OO is the matter of icons for example. I can not in good conscience kiss the little brass feet of a 4 foot tall artist rendering of Jesus on a cross no matter how much 'traditional teaching' tries to apply to that matter. If they want to do that, fine. I am not an iconoclast. But I can't in good conscience, participate. Nor can I pray to Mary, make repetitious prayers and abundance of other angles that are promoted by orthodox traditions.

and so it goes. YOu are certainly free to ignore all the pietistic practices that might assist one toward ones salvation and do it your way. Only you will be responsible for what you do with Christ, you will stand in judgement to HIm for what you did with the grace and knowledge given to you.

I am not going to take the demand of tradition to potentially condemn another believer, no. That is not in the repertoire of my conscience to do that. Some however delight in carrying that in their own hearts. The "me or my sect" is totally right and everyone else who believes is going to possibly fry. Not for me, thank you. I have a command to love that comes before all else.

Just remember Satan is a believer as well. When you water any religion down to it lowest denominator and have no standard, that religion ceases to exist. What you might have is individual religions, personal choices each having only one member.
Hardly the unified Gospel that Christ gave and is preserving for all men to the end of time. It seems Christ has a much different view than your own.

That activity is part of the heart disease that comes with the arena of faith. To me it is an internal sickness that I won't participate in.

if you are a sola scripturists you of necessity are participating in it. YOu cannot avoid it.

Thus the problem for the protestant milieu, there is no test for false teachings against the common unit, scripture.
YOur response....
Tradition answers to none but themselves and their own determinations.

precisely which confirms what I stated.

It is more than likely to me that every person that sits in any pew is going to have a different reflection on many matters regardless of the overall general adhesion's.
Word and Spirit in the final analysis provide us our own reflections of heart and they are by nature going to be different. That's how we were created. There are many reflections that I see from the Apostles that I take for myself that are flat out rejected by traditional authorities today. You will not find the pope [or any minister in your sect] sitting in the chair of St. Peter with the truth coming from his lips, that he has evil present with him as Paul did in Romans 7:21 for example nor will you hear them say they have a devil in their flesh as Paul did in 2 Cor. 12:7 nor will you find them claiming they are the chief of sinners post salvation as Paul did in 1 Tim. 1:15.
All of these factual statements of Paul have long departed traditional authorities. Were any of them to make those same claims today they would be immediately shunned from the ministry for speaking such truths. It just shows me how far the facts have fallen away from traditions.

Which is the same criticism Jesus had for traditions of men.
But Christ's Church, is not based on tradition, but HOLY Tradition, the Revelation of God to man in its full content and retained within the Church He established to which He could entrust His Gospel and through which the Holy Spirit is still working today. There in ONLY ONE Body of Christ. That Body is unified around the ONE faith over which Christ is Head. The very same faith, the very same practices, the very same Eucharist binds all together in ONE Body. It has been that way from the beginning.
So, after all that, you have no test to determine false teaching. YOu are a full supporter of each individual developing their own form of religion as long it has scripture as its base.

 

[smaller]

smaller,
NO, it comes from the top down. Christ/via the Holy Spirit, the Bishops are responsible to teach, but the Body is what is infallible,

Yeah, I think we've covered this adequately. They include their laity in the infallible body, except they, the common membership, need to understand they are receivers with access rights participants only.

The non-teaching non-official body certainly have no say in much, if anything.

It is as you say, top down only. And only as determined in these respective 'one true' churches times how many? 3 or more? So much for top down at that point.

I am not the one who will condemn. Christ will be the judge. Christ gave us His revelation, it has been entrusted to the Church, that one same Gospel is still in effect today without change.

Yeah, well, I've heard that line from just about every megalomanic on every street corner who thinks themselves a believer. Not I who condemn you to burn alive forever [for not believing exactly LIKE ME,] but GOD!

What all such claimants fail to see is that it is THEM making that claim.

Man can change, ignore, soften that Gospel to his detriment, but the Gospel stays the same and its intent. I presume by your remarks that you don't really believe Christ can do what He promised He would do.

The multiple claimant 'one true church' scheme does tend to shed a little suspicious light on that matter does it not?

Either that, you believe man has authority over a text and can develop whatever one desires and that becomes Truth. Could hardly be a unified Gospel once given and preserved by the Holy Spirit.

Well, you should maybe try that scheme out on the 3 'one and only' true churches.

When has the Gospel been restricted to non laity.

Orthodoxy of the EO/OO kind tend to mask this matter as they are more disjointed in their bishops area of control. The RCC is much more overt on this matter:

"Since the laity is distinct from the clergy, and since Divine worship, doctrinal teaching, and ecclesiastical government are reserved, at least in essentials,to the latter, it follows that the former may not interfere in purely clerical offices; they can participate only in a secondary and accessory manner, and that in virtue of a more or less explicit authorization. Any other interference would be an unlawful and guilty usurpation, punishable at times with censures and penalties."

It is the work and duty of every believer to witness to the Truth.

I very much doubt that if you did even a little investigation in EO or OO, (you have declined to say which you are aligned with at this point) you'd find any non-ordained lay person authorized to be engaging any differently than in the RCC. I know for a fact that the Russian Orthodox prohibit such activities almost identically to the RCC.

It is the responsibility of the bishops to teach as it always has been. No man has authority to interpret scripture or anything else, never has had that authority.

Yes, that is why I point out to non-authorized lay teachers of the orthodox kinds that they are probably engaged in doing what is forbidden by their sect. Some of them realize this and stop. Others don't care and do it anyway.

I do not know of any splits over infant baptism, but even if that be so, that is a personal choice of some and for them to leave. That does not harm the unity of the Church nor the Gospel. Many believers have left the Church, Paul even wrote about some who left during his ministry. Man is free to accept Christ or reject HIm.

There is a party line that is fed to the ignorant and uninformed masses and there is the official lines. I'd suggest you are not much familiar with the official lines on these matters. In the EO for example they only know 'where the church is' which in effect is only them as the 'one true church' and makes no statements about 'where it isn't.'

I give them minor credit for the fancy footwork and major discredit for not speaking forthrightly.

They should do as the RCC and claim everyone outside not 'in the church' period other than the extensions to the ignorant and uninformed, which the RCC extends their hands to for proselytizing purposes only. I don't think EO or OO has went that far and won't. They just claim 'we're it' and nobody else is, period.

There is only one form of Orthodoxy. Why would you think that Christ or the Holy Spirit must be responsible to you or to any man?

Like I said, try that scheme out on the 3 'one and only' true churches.

YOu seem to have a distaste for any authority unless it might be yours.

If you say I am not responsible for the dictates of my own conscience you would again be violating a position of your own sect.

I'm cutting the balance of the programming drone they stuck in your head as 'all three' one and only true church drones make the same claims. So again, try the wares out on them and see if you come up with only one.

So, after all that, you have no test to determine false teaching. YOu are a full supporter of each individual developing their own form of religion as long it has scripture as its base.

As stated prior, MANY of the early church foundational determinations are accepted by MOST sola adherents. It is what stemmed from there in traditions that began to fracture things. The real fracture was noted earlier. Fallible men seeing only in part and claiming to see infallibly by them and them alone have already fallen off the perch of simple truthful fact openly apparent to everyone, including even unbelievers who have rightfully mocked all such hypocrisy, even them knowing better. These matters have turned into simple arrogance in the hands of traditions.

2 Peter 1:3
According as his divine power hath given unto us all things that pertain unto life and godliness, through the knowledge of him that hath called us to glory and virtue:

Jude 1:3
Beloved, when I gave all diligence to write unto you of the common salvation, it was needful for me to write unto you, and exhort you that ye should earnestly contend for the faith which was once delivered unto the saints.

Sola adherents reflect on these matters of 'hath given' and 'once delivered.' Traditions have extended their reaches to many fanciful imaginations which are against the consciences of MANY believers and made their own beds of divisions.

The fallacy that these 3 units have some common unity is outright laughable. I could cite you recent authorships of various components of these orthodox teaching bodies STILL condemning each others openly as HERETICS.

Unity? Don't make me laugh.

s

 

[Cassian]

smaller,

Man can change, ignore, soften that Gospel to his detriment, but the Gospel stays the same and its intent. I presume by your remarks that you don't really believe Christ can do what He promised He would do.
YOur response.....
The multiple claimant 'one true church' scheme does tend to shed a little suspicious light on that matter does it not?

I didn't see any suspicion at all. It does not take much research to locate the ONE True Church from any others that claim it. The Church has an historical existance. It does not exist in a vaccum and if one or more make that claim it would be encumbent upon that person to research why any are making that claim.

Either that, you believe man has authority over a text and can develop whatever one desires and that becomes Truth. Could hardly be a unified Gospel once given and preserved by the Holy Spirit.
Your response.....
Well, you should maybe try that scheme out on the 3 'one and only' true churches.

I did and anyone can do the same. It is not difficult to find that ONE True Church, if one is actually dilligent.

I very much doubt that if you did even a little investigation in EO or OO, (you have declined to say which you are aligned with at this point) you'd find any non-ordained lay person authorized to be engaging any differently than in the RCC. I know for a fact that the Russian Orthodox prohibit such activities almost identically to the RCC.

I'm EO, but I find no person that performs interpretative teaching. Even the Bishops cannot do this. This is how historically, bishops mostly, have tried to impose their new innovative interpretations upon scripture. In every case they have been rejected.
The RCC is entirely a different entity. They have created new doctrines out of whole cloth and then try to align them with scripture. When on man or at minimum a magisterium has sole authority over the church it becomes quite easy to do so. This is why the Church has always been conciliar. The Gospel was given once and the Church has proclaimed that Gospel consistantly from the beginning. It is impossible to compare the Orthodox with RCC practices since they are vastly different, especially in the area of interpretation.

Yes, that is why I point out to non-authorized lay teachers of the orthodox kinds that they are probably engaged in doing what is forbidden by their sect. Some of them realize this and stop. Others don't care and do it anyway.

I have not known any myself, but that does not mean it does not happen. After all bishops have done so throughout Church history why not individuals.

There is a party line that is fed to the ignorant and uninformed masses and there is the official lines. I'd suggest you are not much familiar with the official lines on these matters. In the EO for example they only know 'where the church is' which in effect is only them as the 'one true church' and makes no statements about 'where it isn't.'

Precisely. God has revealed to us His revelation. That does not mean that God can operate outside of that revelation. But in receiving the Revelation, we are obligated to follow that revelation as He gave it. We should not presume that He will save us even if we ignore His revelation to man.

They should do as the RCC and claim everyone outside not 'in the church' period other than the extensions to the ignorant and uninformed, which the RCC extends their hands to for proselytizing purposes only. I don't think EO or OO has went that far and won't. They just claim 'we're it' and nobody else is, period

As far as I am aware, scripture states quite clearly that there is ONLY one Body to which we must become members. Christ did not establishe more than one Body on earth.

There is only one form of Orthodoxy. Why would you think that Christ or the Holy Spirit must be responsible to you or to any man?
YOur reponse....

Like I said, try that scheme out on the 3 'one and only' true churches.

It is not up to me to establish a church. Christ established HIs Church here on earth. ONE Body, a Body He has preserved of which He is the Head. Scripture so states as well. I don't see scripture claiming that there is more than ONE Body.

If you say I am not responsible for the dictates of my own conscience you would again be violating a position of your own sect.

In choosing Christ, you have submitted completely to HIm. If you reserve anything you are not committed to HIM. It has nothing to do with your conscience once you submit to HIm. YOu can change that committment, you can reject it at any time. But you have no authority whatsoever over the Gospel of Christ or His Church. If you think you do, then you are not of Christ but of some other religion based on you.

As stated prior, MANY of the early church foundational determinations are accepted by MOST sola adherents. It is what stemmed from there in traditions that began to fracture things. The real fracture was noted earlier. Fallible men seeing only in part and claiming to see infallibly by them and them alone have already fallen off the perch of simple truthful fact openly apparent to everyone, including even unbelievers who have rightfully mocked all such hypocrisy, even them knowing better. These matters have turned into simple arrogance in the hands of traditions.

which is precisely what I have been stating. And of all those traditions there is no test for false teachings, since there cannot be any. It is every man for himself.

Jude 1:3
Beloved, when I gave all diligence to write unto you of the common salvation, it was needful for me to write unto you, and exhort you that ye should earnestly contend for the faith which was once delivered unto the saints.

And He was speaking to those who are members of Christ's Body. That Body has existed from the beginning, as has the Gospel, unchanged by man. Christ has always been Head of His Church and that Body has always been animated by the Holy Spirit, to guide that Body, to preserve that Body and preserve the Gospel entrusted to it. That Body has always used the "rule of faith" is determining false from Truth for the last 2000 years.

Sola adherents reflect on these matters of 'hath given' and 'once delivered.' Traditions have extended their reaches to many fanciful imaginations which are against the consciences of MANY believers and made their own beds of divisions.

Which man has done with ease under the principle of sola scriptura. Man has elevated himself as his own authority over a text, isolated it from its full content and context.

The fallacy that these 3 units have some common unity is outright laughable. I could cite you recent authorships of various components of these orthodox teaching bodies STILL condemning each others openly as HERETICS.

I know of only one issue within Orthodoxy that might become a heresy. However, changes being made to eliminate that heresy from within. Outside of that I know of no heresy being proclaimed except against all the old ones which seem to pop up with the sola scriptura camp and new ones of the RCC.
If you know of others, please put forth the evidence.

So, we are right back to the OP, that there is no text for false teachings within the sola scriptura, protestant milieu

 

[smaller]

smaller,
I didn't see any suspicion at all. It does not take much research to locate the ONE True Church from any others that claim it. The Church has an historical existance. It does not exist in a vaccum and if one or more make that claim it would be encumbent upon that person to research why any are making that claim.
I did and anyone can do the same. It is not difficult to find that ONE True Church, if one is actually dilligent.

There are too many 'one true churches' to even bother with the effort. In such a search believers are doing no differently than sola advocates do. They 'work out their own salvation.'

Phi. 2:
11 And that every tongue should confess that Jesus Christ is Lord, to the glory of God the Father.
12 Wherefore, my beloved, as ye have always obeyed, not as in my presence only, but now much more in my absence, work out your own salvation with fear and trembling.
13 For it is God which worketh in you both to will and to do of his good pleasure.


God in Christ leads all of His Own regardless of 'man branding.'

I'm EO, but I find no person that performs interpretative teaching.

You're doing nothing different than any other believer.

Even the Bishops cannot do this. This is how historically, bishops mostly, have tried to impose their new innovative interpretations upon scripture. In every case they have been rejected.

Well, we certainly know for a fact from scripture and from reality that various authorities are wrong and in some cases even outright liars.

The RCC is entirely a different entity. They have created new doctrines out of whole cloth and then try to align them with scripture.

And they say the same about the EO. zzz

My observation is that it is more beneficial to me to stay away from both and believe that the adherents are saved regardless of their continuing pettiness and insistence only they are right.

It is also beneficial for me to know I'm wrong. Keeps one out of and avoiding the arrogance arena.

When on man or at minimum a magisterium has sole authority over the church it becomes quite easy to do so. This is why the Church has always been conciliar. The Gospel was given once and the Church has proclaimed that Gospel consistantly from the beginning. It is impossible to compare the Orthodox with RCC practices since they are vastly different, especially in the area of interpretation.

The fact is that traditions have led to 'different' interpretations and practices. No different than the sola pursuits.

I have not known any myself, but that does not mean it does not happen. After all bishops have done so throughout Church history why not individuals.

Uh, because orthodoxy officially prohibits such pursuits. But as noted prior, some members will disregard their own sects positions on these matters and do contrary pursuits anyway.

Precisely. God has revealed to us His revelation. That does not mean that God can operate outside of that revelation. But in receiving the Revelation, we are obligated to follow that revelation as He gave it. We should not presume that He will save us even if we ignore His revelation to man.

There is a heart package that comes with orthodox territory that I am not willing to take in. The arrogance of thinking God in Christ only works in 'my church' and everyone else is wrong and possibly damned is a deal I'm not interested in whatsoever. Also not interested in dead ritual, brain dead submission to fallible mens authority, repetitious prayers, prayers to Mary, venerations, etc etc. I'm just not interested in 'playing church.' Life in Christ is vastly more engaging than that.

There is a world full of people to love and to help, right in my own backyard.

As far as I am aware, scripture states quite clearly that there is ONLY one Body to which we must become members. Christ did not establishe more than one Body on earth.

As far as I'm concerned, anyone who has called upon God in Christ in faith to save them is part of His Body, period. If some within His Body want to divide and condemn the other believers, I consider them off the trail. They are welcome to live their entire lives in the condemnation of other believers and think they will be justified in that before God in Christ. I don't see it.

It is not up to me to establish a church. Christ established HIs Church here on earth. ONE Body, a Body He has preserved of which He is the Head. Scripture so states as well. I don't see scripture claiming that there is more than ONE Body.

Not up to you but up to you to sort through the pieces and make a decision. Other believers do no differently. At the point when you enter condemnation in heart to other believers, you have been led astray imho. I think God will save you regardless.

In choosing Christ, you have submitted completely to HIm. If you reserve anything you are not committed to HIM. It has nothing to do with your conscience once you submit to HIm. YOu can change that committment, you can reject it at any time. But you have no authority whatsoever over the Gospel of Christ or His Church. If you think you do, then you are not of Christ but of some other religion based on you.

When I need you or any other person to answer for my heart and conscience I'll let you know.

which is precisely what I have been stating. And of all those traditions there is no test for false teachings, since there cannot be any. It is every man for himself.

That's pretty much how it looks to me. In their quest for authority, traditions have taken on the task of condemnation to all other believers outside their sect. To me, that is both wrong and a smear of an evil conscience within. They can have and keep their 'authority' and wallow in that the rest of their lives.

I hope they all enjoy being totally right.

And He was speaking to those who are members of Christ's Body. That Body has existed from the beginning, as has the Gospel, unchanged by man. Christ has always been Head of His Church and that Body has always been animated by the Holy Spirit, to guide that Body, to preserve that Body and preserve the Gospel entrusted to it. That Body has always used the "rule of faith" is determining false from Truth for the last 2000 years.

Well, it certainly looks to me like you are proclaiming their programming. I am so glad that you and your group are totally right and that has granted you license to condemn any and all other believers to the potential of burning alive forever. In that you are on the most common doctrine of any sect.

Which man has done with ease under the principle of sola scriptura. Man has elevated himself as his own authority over a text, isolated it from its full content and context.

Yeah. Meanwhile you did no differently? lol

I know of only one issue within Orthodoxy that might become a heresy. However, changes being made to eliminate that heresy from within. Outside of that I know of no heresy being proclaimed except against all the old ones which seem to pop up with the sola scriptura camp and new ones of the RCC.
If you know of others, please put forth the evidence.

So, we are right back to the OP, that there is no text for false teachings within the sola scriptura, protestant milieu

I think blind and brain dead submission to other fallible groups is a great place for many natural believers.

I hope they enjoy their stays.

s

 

[Cassian]

smaller,

There are too many 'one true churches' to even bother with the effort. In such a search believers are doing no differently than sola advocates do. They 'work out their own salvation.'
Phi. 2:
11 And that every tongue should confess that Jesus Christ is Lord, to the glory of God the Father.
12 Wherefore, my beloved, as ye have always obeyed, not as in my presence only, but now much more in my absence, work out your own salvation with fear and trembling.
13 For it is God which worketh in you both to will and to do of his good pleasure.

God in Christ leads all of His Own regardless of 'man branding.'

Historically, there were only three, now two remain. So where are all these "too many true churces'?

YOu can quote scripture, but without the meaning to the person quoting it means nothing. And you are correct, Christ is leading His own, and not any group created by man which has developed their own form of religion.

I'm EO, but I find no person that performs interpretative teaching.

YOur response....

You're doing nothing different than any other believer.

quite the contrary. All one needs to do is look at the RCC and one can easily find many doctrines that are derived as developments of doctrine by either one man or by the Magisterium. When one looks that the last 500 years of sola scriptura, there have been hundreds of brand new doctrines proclaimed by hundreds of differeing denominations, groups, sects, and persons.

The RCC is entirely a different entity. They have created new doctrines out of whole cloth and then try to align them with scripture.
Your response....
And they say the same about the EO. zzz
My observation is that it is more beneficial to me to stay away from both and believe that the adherents are saved regardless of their continuing pettiness and insistence only they are right.

It is also beneficial for me to know I'm wrong. Keeps one out of and avoiding the arrogance arena.

unfortunately you have had a very bad experience with the RCC. You have not been a good Berean and made the effort to seriously research the claims instead of simply ignoring them or assumning all are incorrect. By so soing instead of avoiding the arrogance you think you have avoided, you have placed yourself above the Gospel of Christ and proclaimed yourself as that sole authority. YOu do the same as those you dispise.

The fact is that traditions have led to 'different' interpretations and practices. No different than the sola pursuits.

traditions have always led to different interpretations which is why they are called traditions.

However, HOLY TRADITION is not a man made tradition. It is the revelation of God to man,given via the Apostles to the Church, the Body of Christ, It is that Tradition that the Holy Spirit is guarding, and the Church He is protecting and perserving. In my particular research I could not find a single doctrine that the Church believes today that is different than the early Church from Pentacost.

I have not known any myself, but that does not mean it does not happen. After all bishops have done so throughout Church history why not individuals.

YOur response.....

Uh, because orthodoxy officially prohibits such pursuits. But as noted prior, some members will disregard their own sects positions on these matters and do contrary pursuits anyway.

Of course because man does not have such authority. It has been that way from the beginning. Arius was an elder, but subsequent heretics, mostly were bishops who went beyond their functions.
This is the very opposite of sola scriptura. Not only are they taking just a bare text, but they supplant the Holy Spirit in being the giver of God's revelation, protector of God's revelation, but elevate themselves as supreme authority over scripture, then proceed to develop all these new theories, doctrines from a bare text. We have 500 years of manifest history as to the madness, confusion and division that has resulted, making scripture null and void, same as Jesus castigated the Pharisees in His time.

There is a heart package that comes with orthodox territory that I am not willing to take in. The arrogance of thinking God in Christ only works in 'my church' and everyone else is wrong and possibly damned is a deal I'm not interested in whatsoever. Also not interested in dead ritual, brain dead submission to fallible mens authority, repetitious prayers, prayers to Mary, venerations, etc etc. I'm just not interested in 'playing church.' Life in Christ is vastly more engaging than that.

I think you need to read scripture with more discernment based on this reply. YOu are saying that you do not accept Christ as the Head of His Church, the Church He established here on earth for believers. YOu dislike Christ's arrogance that He can set Himself apart from the world and then ONLY work within His Body to save those who believe. Christ was quite arrogant when He stated that ONLY He is salvation. Only through Him does one become saved. As far as I can see Christ quite emphatically states that He only works in His Body. Christ is not divided. He did not create many bodies, surely not permitted man to create imagined bodies fitting man's traditions. It seems you want Christ only at your convenience and your perameters. A very modern man, quite typical of man's innate fallenness and persevation and enhancement of self.

As far as I'm concerned, anyone who has called upon God in Christ in faith to save them is part of His Body, period. If some within His Body want to divide and condemn the other believers, I consider them off the trail. They are welcome to live their entire lives in the condemnation of other believers and think they will be justified in that before God in Christ. I don't see it.

clearly a misunderstanding even of simple reading of scripture, let alone someone who would have recieved more as an RCC, even with all the tradition.

Not up to you but up to you to sort through the pieces and make a decision. Other believers do no differently. At the point when you enter condemnation in heart to other believers, you have been led astray imho. I think God will save you regardless.

Again, I think that remark is based on your RCC background. I don't see anyone condemning beleivers. We should not be condemning anyway but we are obligated to preach, teach the Gospel of Christ as He gave it. NOt as we develop it to suit our own perameters. In the end God is the judge of what man does with the knowledge and grace given to each. We can proclaim His Gospel, but we are not responsible for others, only ourselves.

When I need you or any other person to answer for my heart and conscience I'll let you know.

and who is answering to your heart or conscience. God created you free, a rational soul, just for the purpose that you can respond to Him as He desires. You can also freely reject Him. He has set perameters of your membership however. Here again, you are free to accept or in not accepting you are rejecting. That is why there will be a judgment for all men.

That's pretty much how it looks to me. In their quest for authority, traditions have taken on the task of condemnation to all other believers outside their sect. To me, that is both wrong and a smear of an evil conscience within. They can have and keep their 'authority' and wallow in that the rest of their lives.

I hope they all enjoy being totally right.

which includes yourself. By what you have written you have created your own tradition. Rejecting Holy Tradition, all other man made traditions, and then establishing your own.

Well, it certainly looks to me like you are proclaiming their programming. I am so glad that you and your group are totally right and that has granted you license to condemn any and all other believers to the potential of burning alive forever. In that you are on the most common doctrine of any sect.

Why do you think that Christ and the Holy Spirit are not correct? If they are incorrect, what is the purpose of any revelation. YOu seem to hold to some fate, some unguided force that no matter what will take place, and we can jolly do what we please, the outcome will be the same.

Which man has done with ease under the principle of sola scriptura. Man has elevated himself as his own authority over a text, isolated it from its full content and context.

Your response.....

Yeah. Meanwhile you did no differently? lol

And just how can Christ elevate Himself about Himself? How is Christ outside of His own Gospel and His own Body? Please explain how you get this from scripture?

I think blind and brain dead submission to other fallible groups is a great place for many natural believers.

based on the last 20 -50 years within the sola scriptura milieu it is not groups or denominations any longer that people are submitting to. It has become much more individualized, which you seem to be an example. It has become the privatization of a religion, of ideas generated from a book, that have become the religions of each person doing the interpretation.

Thus we are still back to the OP, for the sola scripturists there is no test for false teaching. My assumption on the replys is that such is no longer necessary. Everyone is saved no matter what they believe or in whom they believe as long as it can be derived from scripture. Scripture seems to have become the Savior instead of Christ.

 

[Free]

Thus we are still back to the OP, for the sola scripturists there is no test for false teaching. My assumption on the replys is that such is no longer necessary. Everyone is saved no matter what they believe or in whom they believe as long as it can be derived from scripture. Scripture seems to have become the Savior instead of Christ.

You seem to have missed my previous post.

 

[Cassian]

Free,

This isn't the case in all circumstances. There certainly are doctrines to which all Protestants agree are essential, such as the Trinity, the virgin birth and the death and resurrection of Jesus.

I apologize as I did indeed miss it.

To bring your statement back in context you replied to this statement of mine.

What has resulted in the protestant milieu is a myriad of interpretations, all of equal validity but none that are actually the Truth of scripture.

Even the Trinity does not hold equality among everyone. There are non-trintiarians. There are others who agree to the term but their theology does not use or reflect the scriptural content of the Trinity.

Virgin Birth has the same differences reflected in various groups, sects, denominations, of persons. Death and resurrection the same thing. There are some who believe Christ did not rise from the grave bodily for example.

That some hold a correct scriptural view is not the issue. How does a sola scripturist know if he is correct in his interpretation of a text? What test is there to judge false teachings?
Or to put it as the OP states, How does one identify false teachers (teachings).

 

[Elijah674]

This posting is truely Anti/God! False EVERYTHING & needing no reply. Eccl. 3:14, Rev. 22:18:19 (if ever the name was recorded in the Book of Life in first place?? ) Acts 5:32. And the OP has the posting identify itself! And thanks much for the revealing of the source of 's'pirits below! Gen. 4:7

How To Idenify FALSE Teachers! (is the OP)

Originally Posted by Cassian
Thus we are still back to the OP, for the sola scripturists there is no test for false teaching. My assumption on the replys is that such is no longer necessary. Everyone is saved no matter what they believe or in whom they believe as long as it can be derived from scripture. Scripture seems to have become the Savior instead of Christ.



​

 

[Cassian]

This posting is truely Anti/God! False EVERYTHING & needing no reply. Eccl. 3:14, Rev. 22:18:19 (if ever the name was recorded in the Book of Life in first place?? ) Acts 5:32. And the OP has the posting identify itself! And thanks much for the revealing of the source of 's'pirits below! Gen. 4:7

How To Idenify FALSE Teachers! (is the OP)

Originally Posted by Cassian
Thus we are still back to the OP, for the sola scripturists there is no test for false teaching. My assumption on the replys is that such is no longer necessary. Everyone is saved no matter what they believe or in whom they believe as long as it can be derived from scripture. Scripture seems to have become the Savior instead of Christ.



​

and how does this reflect any kind of answer to the OP?

 

[smaller]

smaller,
Historically, there were only three, now two remain. So where are all these "too many true churces'?

I am not aware of any church that claims itself to be false. You?

YOu can quote scripture, but without the meaning to the person quoting it means nothing. And you are correct, Christ is leading His own, and not any group created by man which has developed their own form of religion.
quite the contrary. All one needs to do is look at the RCC and one can easily find many doctrines that are derived as developments of doctrine by either one man or by the Magisterium. When one looks that the last 500 years of sola scriptura, there have been hundreds of brand new doctrines proclaimed by hundreds of differeing denominations, groups, sects, and persons.

unfortunately you have had a very bad experience with the RCC. You have not been a good Berean and made the effort to seriously research the claims instead of simply ignoring them or assumning all are incorrect. By so soing instead of avoiding the arrogance you think you have avoided, you have placed yourself above the Gospel of Christ and proclaimed yourself as that sole authority. YOu do the same as those you dispise.

And I would suggest you are WOEfully ignorant of your own supposed EO church teaching on non official teaching members teaching out of their own hat in using their own words.

I'd suggest you turn to the 7th Ecumenical Council Canon's number 19 and 64 for starters and then get back in your prescribed traditional box where you claim you belong.

Technically what you are doing is forbidden.

s

 

[Cassian]

smaller,

I am not aware of any church that claims itself to be false. You?

However, having once been a protestant and a member of three different denominations, none of them claimed to be the ONE True Church. I'm not aware of any protestant church, sect or denomination that has ever claimed it is the ONE True Church. If you know of any, enlighten me.

And I would suggest you are WOEfully ignorant of your own supposed EO church teaching on non official teaching members teaching out of their own hat in using their own words.

I'd suggest you turn to the 7th Ecumenical Council Canon's number 19 and 64 for starters and then get back in your prescribed traditional box where you claim you belong.

Technically what you are doing is forbidden.

Neither one forbades any to teach what has been established. What is forbidden is deriving new

interpretations of texts that are different than laid down before. This is precisely why the Church has never given authority to any single person the authority of interpretation. Whether that person be clergy or laity. This is why sola scriptura is the precise opposite. Man elevates himself above Christ and His Gospel and proclaimes his personal interpretation as the valid meaning of scripture.

Since I am not engaged in personal interpretation, nor teaching in opposition to the Churches teachings I am not in violation of any thing in the Orthodox Church. If you think I am, point it out and I will check to see if I have overreached and reinterpreted something of the Church awry.

and by the way it was the 6th Ecumenical Council, not the seventh.

We still have not arrived at a test for false teachers. If you have a test, what test do you use?

 

[smaller]

smaller,
However, having once been a protestant and a member of three different denominations, none of them claimed to be the ONE True Church. I'm not aware of any protestant church, sect or denomination that has ever claimed it is the ONE True Church. If you know of any, enlighten me.

Yeah, fortunately most prot sects haven't fallen in that pit of arrogance where they condemn everyone outside their sect to potential eternal torture. I believe your sect deserves full credit for that measure. Not even the RCC stepped into that pile.

Neither one forbades any to teach what has been established. What is forbidden is deriving new

And I'd suggest your reading skills are rather poor on that matter. Maybe you better ask somebody 'official' since they don't allow you to think for yourself?

?

s

 

[Cassian]

Yeah, fortunately most prot sects haven't fallen in that pit of arrogance where they condemn everyone outside their sect to potential eternal torture. I believe your sect deserves full credit for that measure. Not even the RCC stepped into that pile.


And I'd suggest your reading skills are rather poor on that matter. Maybe you better ask somebody 'official' since they don't allow you to think for yourself?

?

s

You really like to blaspheme the Holy Spirit. Making Christ a Head of a sect, and that Christ cannot call anyone to join with Him in His Body as He established it.

It seems that you have thrown out scripture alltogether and have just created your own belief system. You have accepted all others as valid, something like Universalism. A new brand to tolerance to everyone no matter what they believe.

We aught to stop all missions, just hand out Bibles with direction to develop your own personal faith. Anything you develop will be sufficient to save you. Sounds quite like modern man who strongly believes in self determination. A nice soft emotional lift and a very satisfying psychological crutch. Hardly what scripture says, but then it really only means what we need to make it mean for oneself.

So, once again, right back to the OP. It is quite apparent that there is no need for a test for false teachers since they no longer exist. Just concentrate on your personal version and you are safe and saved.

The Church empowers me to evangelize. It does not allow me to interpret or create new doctrines in the name of the Church. Anyone can explain existing dogma, doctrines, the Gospel of Christ as long as they remain within the meaning of that Gospel.

 

[smaller]

You really like to blaspheme the Holy Spirit. Making Christ a Head of a sect, and that Christ cannot call anyone to join with Him in His Body as He established it.

Condemn me to possibly burn alive forever for not believing like you then and move on.

That is what your traditions demand isn't it?

It seems that you have thrown out scripture alltogether and have just created your own belief system. You have accepted all others as valid, something like Universalism. A new brand to tolerance to everyone no matter what they believe.

I admit to being rather fond of not having to condemn other believers to burn alive forever for not believing like me.

Put whatever spin on that you want.

We aught to stop all missions, just hand out Bibles with direction to develop your own personal faith.

Wow, imagine that? Believers actually loving each others. What a concept!

Anything you develop will be sufficient to save you.

Here's another clue for you. I don't believe the structures of traditions 'save' people.

Jesus saves.

Traditions are not Jesus.

Sounds quite like modern man who strongly believes in self determination.

I'll take my determinations from His Word and Spirit, thank you. I don't need my conscience run through the traditional sifter.

Sounds like you need that.

A nice soft emotional lift and a very satisfying psychological crutch. Hardly what scripture says, but then it really only means what we need to make it mean for oneself.

I suspect you aren't even an EO member because you don't seem to know your place.

The Church empowers me to evangelize.

They 'limit' that activity as well to 'acts of charity.' Why are you here trying to evangelize believers in any case? Did they authorize you to proselytize as well?

It does not allow me to interpret or create new doctrines in the name of the Church. Anyone can explain existing dogma, doctrines, the Gospel of Christ as long as they remain within the meaning of that Gospel.

Well by all means you just get out that big authority stick and start whamming us to possible hell if we don't believe exactly like you then. There's one of your kind on every street corner already and you all have a different spin, except when it comes to the damnation you carry in your heart. That's all the same working within.

zzzzzz

s

 

[Cassian]

Smaller,

As much as you try to separate yourself from man's traditions, you have created one just for yourself. I understand fully your need to reject authority, even if it is of Christ Himself.

You have translated the long developed American tradition of individualism, which even in civil affairs is beginning to run amuck. People shun civil authority, and try to impose self rule or what they think should be done instead of by marjority. You have successfully translated that to religion as well. Same thing Isreal did in the time of Judges, every man for himself.

You certainly are welcome to it. It is unfortunate that you have been so misguided by the RCC. Hopefully someday you will recognize that Christ has a claim upon you.

Which leaves us right back to the OP, no test exists for false teaching.
It presumes that every view is valid and toleration of all views means that there can be no such thing as a false teaching.

 

[smaller]

Smaller,

As much as you try to separate yourself from man's traditions, you have created one just for yourself. I understand fully your need to reject authority, even if it is of Christ Himself.

I'll not be bowing to your groups construct of Christ, no. I hate to disappoint you but neither you or they in all their pomp and ceremony are God in Christ. If you believe God in Christ is assuaged by patting your forehead with holy water and making the sign of the cross and genuflecting before icons you just knock yourselves out. I am not about to condemn you for your practices of faith.

You have translated the long developed American tradition of individualism, which even in civil affairs is beginning to run amuck.

Brother, hasn't God in Christ told you and showed you that men are and have evil in heart.

What do you expect to see from that? An 'exception' in your sect? And now you think to belittle me over this fact at some false glory for your sect? In part I think most churches are filled with more hypocrisy than I personally can bear. And God Himself shows us this reality in the world, of OUR FAILURES to be honest about EVIL and SIN, personally applied.

Isn't the EO a big player in Greece? HA! lOl

People shun civil authority, and try to impose self rule or what they think should be done instead of by marjority. You have successfully translated that to religion as well. Same thing Isreal did in the time of Judges, every man for himself.

You think the facts of your own reality with indwelling sin and evil present are eliminated under traditions? I don't play that game, being sold false assuaging under any flag.

You certainly are welcome to it. It is unfortunate that you have been so misguided by the RCC. Hopefully someday you will recognize that Christ has a claim upon you.

I trust He Is quite sufficient to work it all out, even if it gets a little ugly on the trail.

Which leaves us right back to the OP, no test exists for false teaching.
It presumes that every view is valid and toleration of all views means that there can be no such thing as a false teaching.

When are you going to see that you have nothing more than the constructs of fallible men? That is in fact the idol you bow to in heart. I don't and won't bow to such nonsense as it's NOT THE TRUTH. Just another substitute claim.

?

God in Christ is very real in my own life and in that of my family and many of my friends. We live in His Love to us and each others.

Your man group demands that everyone who doesn't believe like you is possibly going to burn alive forever. I sincerely hope you all get a taste of your own medicine. I'm sure it will cure you quickly.

s