Human Free Will Responsible For Drowned Children In The Genesis Flood.

[Rollo Tamasi]

is there a scripture that says children were drowned?

before the flood people lived hundreds of years - methusala 969 - enoch 300

if the bible does not state there were children then it is conceivable that God caused the flood to happen in a time when there were no children - only adults who willfully chose to ignore God

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Genealogies_of_Genesis - lists the ages of the patriarchs before the flood - most around 800 yrs

Is God responsible for his creation?

 

[OzSpen]

We know that God is merciful and that He loves the human race and sent His Son the Lord Jesus to die on a cruel cross to pay for the sins of the human race so they could be redeemed.

1 John 4:16 "God is love."

John 3:16 "for God so loved the world"

So on Christian doctrine God loves the world. And therefore it is reasonable to speculate on what this God who loves the world, might have done
for those children during The Great Flood.

We do not know what God does in the unseen world....

JAG,

By focussing on only one of God's attributes (love), you have given a skewed version of the nature of God. Could you have forgotten ...

• God's justice, 'Far be it from you to do such a thing—to kill the righteous with the wicked, treating the righteous and the wicked alike. Far be it from you! Will not the Judge of all the earth do right?' (Gen 18:25 NIV).
• The God of all wisdom, 'If any of you lacks wisdom, you should ask God, who gives generously to all without finding fault, and it will be given to you' (James 1:5 NIV).
• 'He asked, ‘How did you get in here without wedding clothes, friend?’ The man was speechless.“Then the king told the attendants, ‘Tie him hand and foot, and throw him outside, into the darkness, where there will be weeping and gnashing of teeth.’ “For many are invited, but few are chosen" (Matt 22:12-14 NIV). The God of love also is the God who judges.
• Etc

Oz

 

[OzSpen]

A friend of mine recently wrote to me "
"I assert that there were no children drowned in the Flood."

I replied as follows:

Miscellaneous Points:

{1} I have heard that argued before.

{2} I am on your side, which means I hope you can and will
present evidence to support your assertion, that rises to the
certainty-level of 2 + 2 = 4

{3} Or at least evidence that has a clear and obvious high
Probability of being true.

{4} I have yet to see any evidence that convinced me that it
was highly Probable that there were no children living at the
time of the Genesis Flood.

{5} Of course you may have some evidence that I have never
seen. I hope you do.

{6} It is highly reasonable and highly Probable and highly Plausible
to believe that the people living during the Genesis Flood were a
regular normal society of people like all other societies of people
that have new born babies and children of all ages, and teens,
and young adults to the very old.

{7} My view is that, to defeat {6} up there will require some solid
evidence that rises way above mere speculation or inference.

{8} There is a passage in the New Testament that strongly suggests
that there were children present during the Genesis Flood.

"As it was in the days of Noah, so it will be at the coming of the Son
of Man. For in the days before the flood, people were eating and
drinking, marrying and giving in marriage, up to the day Noah
entered the ark; and they knew nothing about what would happen
until the flood came and took them all away. That is how it will be
at the coming of the Son of Man."___Matthew 24:37-39
{a similar passage appears in Luke 17:26-27}

Note the particulars In {8}
{A} "As it was in the days of Noah"
{B} "For in the days before the flood"
{C} "people were . . . marrying and giving in marriage"
{D} "up to the day Noah entered the ark"

{9} A crucial question is this: Since they were marrying and giving
in marriage right up to the day that Noah entered the ark, why does
anyone think they were NOT having children?

{10} My view is -- it will be very difficult to defeat {6} and {8}
and {9} with speculation or inference.

{11} True, the Bible does NOT say there were children
present during the Genesis Flood.
Neither does the Bible say there were NOT children present.
during the Genesis Flood. But {6} and {8} and {9} seem to
enjoy a high level of Probability.

But like I said, I am on your side. I hope you can eliminate the
idea that there was children drowned in the Genesis Flood.___JAG

_________

I added the above to the thread just as a point of possible interest and
information. I had previously not considered Matthew 24:37-39
{or the Luke 17:26-27 passage) as having a bearing on this issue.

JAG,

There was no need for the Bible to say that children were drowned in the great flood of Noah's day because the reliable Scripture states:

​

Every living thing that moved on land died. The birds, the livestock and the wild animals died. All of the creatures that fill the earth also died. And so did every human being. 22 Every breathing thing on dry land died. 23 Every living thing on earth was wiped out. People and animals were destroyed. The creatures that move along the ground and the birds in the sky were wiped out. Everything on earth was destroyed. Only Noah and those with him in the ark were left k (Gen 7:21-23 NIRV).​

​

The comprehensive language of 'every living thing', 'every human being', 'every breathing thing', and 'people and animals were destroyed' indicates that all children died, apart from those on the Ark.

We are not left to guess about this, Scripture has made it clear. It doesn't matter which version one uses, the result is the same: 'All flesh died' and that included 'every man'. 'All in whose nostrils was the breath of life' died'. 'Every living substance was destroyed' and that included 'man' (KJV).

Oz

 

[JAG ..]

JAG,

There was no need for the Bible to say that children were drowned in the great flood of Noah's day because the reliable Scripture states:

​

Every living thing that moved on land died. The birds, the livestock and the wild animals died. All of the creatures that fill the earth also died. And so did every human being. 22 Every breathing thing on dry land died. 23 Every living thing on earth was wiped out. People and animals were destroyed. The creatures that move along the ground and the birds in the sky were wiped out. Everything on earth was destroyed. Only Noah and those with him in the ark were left k (Gen 7:21-23 NIRV).​

​

The comprehensive language of 'every living thing', 'every human being', 'every breathing thing', and 'people and animals were destroyed' indicates that all children died, apart from those on the Ark.

We are not left to guess about this, Scripture has made it clear. It doesn't matter which version one uses, the result is the same: 'All flesh died' and that included 'every man'. 'All in whose nostrils was the breath of life' died'. 'Every living substance was destroyed' and that included 'man' (KJV).

Oz

"There was no need for the Bible to say that children were drowned in the
great flood of Noah's day because the reliable Scripture states:. . "__Oz


"The comprehensive language of 'every living thing', 'every human being', 'every breathing thing', and 'people and animals were destroyed' indicates that all children died, apart from those on the Ark."___Oz

Miscellaneous Points.
{1} You have just re-stated my view- the view I have taken in this thread.
{2} It is clear from reading your post that you have misunderstood
my Opening Post and especially have misunderstood my follow-up posts.
{3} You and I are saying the same thing.
{4} You obviously think that I am saying something different than
you are saying. I am not.
{5} Oz, thanks for your comments and for your interest in the thread.


`

 

[JAG ..]

JAG,

By focussing on only one of God's attributes (love), you have given a skewed version of the nature of God. Could you have forgotten ...

• God's justice, 'Far be it from you to do such a thing—to kill the righteous with the wicked, treating the righteous and the wicked alike. Far be it from you! Will not the Judge of all the earth do right?' (Gen 18:25 NIV).
• The God of all wisdom, 'If any of you lacks wisdom, you should ask God, who gives generously to all without finding fault, and it will be given to you' (James 1:5 NIV).
• 'He asked, ‘How did you get in here without wedding clothes, friend?’ The man was speechless.“Then the king told the attendants, ‘Tie him hand and foot, and throw him outside, into the darkness, where there will be weeping and gnashing of teeth.’ “For many are invited, but few are chosen" (Matt 22:12-14 NIV). The God of love also is the God who judges.
• Etc

Oz

"JAG,
By focussing on only one of God's attributes (love), you have given a skewed
version of the nature of God. Could you have forgotten ..."____Oz

Oz, I have absolutely not even a slight understanding of what you
are talking about. Are you sure that you are in the right thread?
You must be thinking of another thread when you wrote your post
up there. The Scriptures you quoted and the points you made have
nothing to do with what I have said in this thread.

By the way, I agree with what you said and I totally appreciate all the
Bible verses you presented --- I just do not see how they relate to
what I have said in this thread.

Nonetheless, thank you for taking the time to post them and thank you
for your interest in this thread.

 

[Ernest T. Bass]

Many atheists unjustly accuse the God of the Bible of drowning children in the
Genesis Flood. They are wrong. The Flood was not God's fault, it was the fault
of fallen evil human beings. The likes of Richard Dawkins, Sam Harris, Daniel
Dennett, the late Christopher Hitchens, Matt Dillahunty all accuse the God of the
Bible of drowning children during the Genesis Flood.

God was right and just in drowning every living being during The Great Flood.
Why?

Because a vital part of the narrative of The Great Flood was the total wickedness
and murderous violence of the people living at the time of The Great Flood.

If we take any part of the Genesis narrative seriously, we have to take all of it
seriously.

The Genesis narrative says that God did drown all living beings at the time of The
Great Flood.

The Genesis narrative ALSO explains WHY God made the decision to drown them.

Here is why:

"The Lord saw how great man's wickedness on the earth had become and that every
inclination of the thoughts of his heart was only evil all the time." Genesis 6:5

"Now the earth was corrupt in God's sight and was full of violence . . .for all the people
of earth had corrupted their ways" Genesis 6:11

We take the narrative that God drowned them seriously and as being historically true.

We then ALSO have to take Genesis 6:5 and Genesis 6:11 seriously and as being
historically true.

If we do not take the Genesis narrative that God drowned them as historically true,
then you have no moral problem with God.

If we also take Genesis 6:5 and Genesis 6:11 as historically true then you should have
no moral problem with God.

Note that the wickedness of man was great and that "every inclination of the thoughts
of his heart was only evil all the time, and that the earth "was corrupt and full of violence."

These people were not salvageable.

Total wickedness. Murderous violence.

And both of those all the time, not just some of the time.

_______________

Free Will.

The institution of Free Will.

Parents are morally responsible for what happens to their children when it is the parents that make Free Will decisions to choose to do evil.

It was wholly the moral fault of the parents living at the time of The Great Flood because it was THEY that made the decision to plunge into total wickedness and murderous violence.

And to do that all the time . . . ALL the time.

Here is the principle:

The reality and presence of innocent children cannot void and nullify the institution of Free Will.

Therefore what parents choose to do, will determine what happens to their children.

For example, mothers who use their Free Will to choose to take harmful illegal drugs during their pregnancies can expect their innocent babies to be born with serious health problems.

These mothers cannot say to God, "Please void out and nullify my Free Will because I am carrying an innocent helpless human baby."

No, the mother is the one morally responsible for her Free Will decision to consume harmful illegal drugs during her pregnancy.

Humans cannot point to their innocent children and say to God, "Do not punish me for my total plunge into wickedness and murderous violence because if you punish me, you will also harm my innocent children.

_______________


Classic Historical Example Of This Free Will Principle:

Germany During World War ll

When Germany's parents made the social and political decision to follow Adolph Hitler and embrace Nazism, they also made the decision to put their innocent children at risk of serious harm. The parents of Germany could not say to The Allies (or to God) do not try to put a stop to our Nazism because if you do that, you will harm our innocent children.

So?

So the drowning of the children at the time of The Great Flood was wholly the immoral fault of the parents who lived at that time, and made the Free Will decision to plunge into total wickedness and murderous violence.

And to do that ALL the time . . not just occasionally, but ALL the time.

I have always heard that the worst thing about sin is it can cause a person to be lost and condemned eternally. The second worst thing about sin is it can cause innocent people to be harmed. I see that is the case with the flood as you point out. I see it also the case with the Amalekites (1 Samuel 15:2-3) because of the wickedness of the parent, the innocent children/infants also died.

I can only speculate why God did not spare the children. It could be in God's infinite wisdom and foreknowledge that death would be the best thing for those children/infants. To an atheist death would be a bad thing, end of existence. But for Christian death is a good thing (Psalms 116:15; Phil 1:21-23). Isaiah explains what happens to the righteous when they die (Isa 57:1-2) they are taken away from evil to come, enter into peace, rest in their beds walking in uprightness. This is what happen to those innocent children that died. Who could wish anything better for them than what they have now?

Isaiah says they are "taken away from evil to come". If God did not have judgment against the Amalekites then most likely those children (and their children's children) would have matured and grown up to be just as evil, if not more so, than their parents and be lost just as their parents. But by God sending judgment against the Amalekites, it put an end to the perpetuation of evil being passed from one generation to the next.

But God's judgment against men has never been something that was unconditionally predetermined before the world began apart from man's free will, apart from what man choose to do. Ezekiel 25, God's judgment against men came as a result of men choosing to be disobedient to God and not a result of predetermination against/apart from man's free will choices.

 

[Ernest T. Bass]

"ok - good point - praying in support of your presentation of God to atheists"__Truthfrees

Thanks Truthfrees, thanks for your encouragement -- much appreciated.

Truthfrees,

What are your views on the following issue?

A large number of Atheists out there in Thread World on the Internet At Large are angry vicious people that genuinely HATE the God of the Bible. And they will grab on to anything no matter how absurd to attack, mock, and ridicule the Bible and the God of the Bible. This raises an interesting question and presents a choice:

Which one of these is God's will with regard to angry vicious atheists inside Thread World?

(1) Continue to preach the gospel to them AND continue to share with them the arguments found in the great works on Christian Apologetics that defend the Christian faith and defend the God of the Bible. {The Bible the word of God teaches that we should preach the gospel to everybody that will listen to it, doesn't it?}

OR . . .

(2) Apply Matthew 7:6 to them
"Do not give dogs what is sacred; do not throw your pearls to pigs. If you do, they may trample them under their feet, and then turn and tear you to pieces."__The Lord Jesus

The above (1) or (2) is a reasonable question. I am not sure I have the answer to that question. I tend towards number (1) up there. I think its a better thing to try to help them see the truth.

PS
I will be glad to read any comments you have on any of that up there.

PSS
Atheists inside Thread World can trample your pearls under their feet, but they cannot actually "turn and tear you to pieces" --- unless one calls posting insults the same as "tearing you to pieces." I am pretty much immune to insults. I just smile and keep on preaching to them. I never return the insult.


`

Genesis 6:1-2 people on earth at that time were 'beginning' to multiply and giving birth. How could there not be any children?

 

[JAG ..]

Genesis 6:1-2 people on earth at that time were 'beginning' to multiply and giving birth. How could there not be any children?

"Genesis 6:1-2 people on earth at that time were 'beginning' to multiply and
giving birth. How could there not be any children?"___Ernest T. Bass

With regard only to your "How could there not be any children"___Ernet T. Bass

{1} Your statement means that you agree that there was children drowned
in the Genesis Flood.
{2} That is my position -- the position that I have taken in this thread.
{2} It is clear from reading your post that you have misunderstood
my position in this thread and especially have misunderstood my
follow-up posts in this thread.
{3} You and I are saying the same thing with regard to children
being present during the Genesis Flood.
{4} You obviously think that I am saying something different than
you are saying. I am not.
{5} Ernest, thanks for your comments and for your interest in the thread.


`

 

[Ernest T. Bass]

"Genesis 6:1-2 people on earth at that time were 'beginning' to multiply and
giving birth. How could there not be any children?"___Ernest T. Bass

With regard only to your "How could there not be any children"___Ernet T. Bass

{1} Your statement means that you agree that there was children drowned
in the Genesis Flood.
{2} That is my position -- the position that I have taken in this thread.
{2} It is clear from reading your post that you have misunderstood
my position in this thread and especially have misunderstood my
follow-up posts in this thread.
{3} You and I are saying the same thing with regard to children
being present during the Genesis Flood.
{4} You obviously think that I am saying something different than
you are saying. I am not.
{5} Ernest, thanks for your comments and for your interest in the thread.


`

I was agreeing with the title of the thread, that children suffered (flood, Amalekites) as a consequence of sinful choices/decisions made by their parents.

 

[JAG ..]

I have always heard that the worst thing about sin is it can cause a person to be lost and condemned eternally. The second worst thing about sin is it can cause innocent people to be harmed. I see that is the case with the flood as you point out. I see it also the case with the Amalekites (1 Samuel 15:2-3) because of the wickedness of the parent, the innocent children/infants also died.

I can only speculate why God did not spare the children. It could be in God's infinite wisdom and foreknowledge that death would be the best thing for those children/infants. To an atheist death would be a bad thing, end of existence. But for Christian death is a good thing (Psalms 116:15; Phil 1:21-23). Isaiah explains what happens to the righteous when they die (Isa 57:1-2) they are taken away from evil to come, enter into peace, rest in their beds walking in uprightness. This is what happen to those innocent children that died. Who could wish anything better for them than what they have now?

Isaiah says they are "taken away from evil to come". If God did not have judgment against the Amalekites then most likely those children (and their children's children) would have matured and grown up to be just as evil, if not more so, than their parents and be lost just as their parents. But by God sending judgment against the Amalekites, it put an end to the perpetuation of evil being passed from one generation to the next.

But God's judgment against men has never been something that was unconditionally predetermined before the world began apart from man's free will, apart from what man choose to do. Ezekiel 25, God's judgment against men came as a result of men choosing to be disobedient to God and not a result of predetermination against/apart from man's free will choices.

"I can only speculate why God did not spare the children. It could be in God's infinite wisdom and foreknowledge that death would be the best thing for those children/infants. To an atheist death would be a bad thing, end of existence. But for Christian death is a good thing (Psalms 116:15; Phil 1:21-23). Isaiah explains what happens to the righteous when they die (Isa 57:1-2) they are taken away from evil to come, enter into peace, rest in their beds walking in uprightness. This is what happen to those innocent children that died. Who could wish anything better for them than what they have now?"___Ernest T. Bass

Ernest, thank you for your comments and for your contribution to the thread.


`

 

[JAG ..]

I was agreeing with the title of the thread, that children suffered (flood, Amalekites) as a consequence of sinful choices/decisions made by their parents.

"I was agreeing with the title of the thread, that children suffered (flood, Amalekites) as a consequence of sinful choices/decisions made by their parents."___Ernest T. Bass

Okay. I got it.
Thanks for the clarification.

 

[Ernest T. Bass]

Is God responsible for his creation?

If God predetermined all that happens, as some people think, then yes He would be responsible for what happens.

But God is not responsible for free will choices men make.

 

[OzSpen]

is there a scripture that says children were drowned?

Truthfrees,

What is the meaning of this Scripture?

'Every living thing on the face of the earth was wiped out; people and animals and the creatures that move along the ground and the birds were wiped from the earth. Only Noah was left, and those with him in the ark' (Gen 7:23 NIV).​

Surely 'every living thing ... people and animals' included children. 'Every' means not one was missed out.

Oz

 

[Prycejosh1987]

Many atheists unjustly accuse the God of the Bible of drowning children in the
Genesis Flood. They are wrong. The Flood was not God's fault, it was the fault
of fallen evil human beings.

God caused the circumstances and people disobeyed and were so hard hearted that they just didnt care. Its amazing that only 8 were saved, there must have been millions of people. I would not say billions, not millions. Imagne that how much sin came up to God from the people. In scripture God has a temperature meter of sin and as people sin the temperature meter goes up, once it reaches max level, then God executes judgement. This implies that Jesus Christ did God a huge favour on his "stress levels" There are 2 billion Christians in this world, and over 1 billion Muslims that believe in Christ. The world is better then in the time of the flood in some respects and worse in other respects.

 

[Randy]

The souls of those infants would have been spared all the wickedness in earth and God would have comforted them in heaven.