Hunting the Whore of Babylon

[researcher]

RND wrote - Vic, I'm not too sure where you are going here in that I don't see the connection between the Pharisees in Jesus' day and the false teachings of the mother church in Rev. 17.

If I might answer for Vic:

So what's you answer? Quoting related scripture doesn't do much if you don't equate the meaning of what is behind the scripture. Are you saying that the Pharisees are Babylon? Jesus said the Pharisees were "of your father the devil, and the lusts of your father ye will do" because they didn't abide "in the truth, because there is no truth in him." Thus what we are seeing in Revelation 18 is that Babylon is fallen because she has the same spirit of the devil that the Pharisees had.

Babylon = Babel = "gate of God" = a different way to God.

I'm saying Jerusalem was Babylon, and that she met her fate in 70AD. In Jerusalem was found the blood of the prophets and saints, and she was held accountable for all the righteous blood shed on the earth.

 

[RND]

I'm saying Jerusalem was Babylon, and that she met her fate in 70AD.

Well, that certainly is the huge danger of Preterism.

Tell me, in Daniel 2 the stone cut out of the mountain smashes into the feet of the statue that Nebuchadnezzar. How do those feet represent Jerusalem?

In Jerusalem was found the blood of the prophets and saints, and she was held accountable for all the righteous blood shed on the earth.

So what you are saying then is that there was no "righteous blood" shed after 70AD? Who's responsible for that blood shed after 70AD?

 

[samuel]

So what you are saying then is that there was no "righteous blood" shed after 70AD? Who's responsible for that blood shed after 70AD?

But neither can you place the blame on Rome, for all the blood shed before AD 70. . I don't think the Statue in Daniel has anything to do with the Whore of Babylon, just the Gentile world powers. Israel are the chosen people of God, and were the first to turn from God to Idols. Most of which were from the Old Babylonian religion.

 

[researcher]

I'm saying Jerusalem was Babylon, and that she met her fate in 70AD.

Well, that certainly is the huge danger of Preterism.

Tell me, in Daniel 2 the stone cut out of the mountain smashes into the feet of the statue that Nebuchadnezzar. How do those feet represent Jerusalem?

In Jerusalem was found the blood of the prophets and saints, and she was held accountable for all the righteous blood shed on the earth.

So what you are saying then is that there was no "righteous blood" shed after 70AD? Who's responsible for that blood shed after 70AD?

The stone would be Jesus, the cornerstone.

Who's responsible for that blood shed after 70AD?

I would suppose anyone who shed righteous blood. ;) ;) :P

 

[RND]

I'm saying Jerusalem was Babylon, and that she met her fate in 70AD.

Well, that certainly is the huge danger of Preterism.

Tell me, in Daniel 2 the stone cut out of the mountain smashes into the feet of the statue that Nebuchadnezzar. How do those feet represent Jerusalem?

In Jerusalem was found the blood of the prophets and saints, and she was held accountable for all the righteous blood shed on the earth.

So what you are saying then is that there was no "righteous blood" shed after 70AD? Who's responsible for that blood shed after 70AD?

The stone would be Jesus, the cornerstone.

That's right! I asked about the feet however, not the stone.

[quote:17cn7bf6]Who's responsible for that blood shed after 70AD?

I would suppose anyone who shed righteous blood. ;) ;) :P[/quote:17cn7bf6] That's right as well. We are all responsible for our own actions - always have been and always will be. So why was Jesus equating the actions of the Pharisees with the actions of those that killed the prophets?

 

[researcher]

That's right! I asked about the feet however, not the stone.

The feet or fourth empire would be Rome.

Dan 2:40 And the fourth kingdom shall be strong as iron, forasmuch as iron breaketh in pieces and subdueth all things; and as iron that crusheth all these, shall it break in pieces and crush.

Dan 2:44 And in the days of those kings shall the God of heaven set up a kingdom which shall never be destroyed, nor shall the sovereignty thereof be left to another people; but it shall break in pieces and consume all these kingdoms, and it shall stand for ever.

Mar 1:15 and saying, The time is fulfilled, and the kingdom of God is at hand: repent ye, and believe in the gospel.

Mat 28:18 And Jesus came to them and spake unto them, saying, All authority hath been given unto me in heaven and on earth.

God set up His kingdom in the days of the 4th beast i.e. the Roman empire. And Jesus was given all authority at that point, so, he would be responsible for Rome's breakup as he ruled from heaven thus the feet were crushed by him.

 

[RND]

That's right! I asked about the feet however, not the stone.

The feet or fourth empire would be Rome.

Dan 2:40 And the fourth kingdom shall be strong as iron, forasmuch as iron breaketh in pieces and subdueth all things; and as iron that crusheth all these, shall it break in pieces and crush.

Dan 2:44 And in the days of those kings shall the God of heaven set up a kingdom which shall never be destroyed, nor shall the sovereignty thereof be left to another people; but it shall break in pieces and consume all these kingdoms, and it shall stand for ever.

The "feet" are part of the "fifth" kingdom which is pagan Rome.

1) Head, 2) Chest and arms, 3) Bell and thighs, 4) Legs, 5) Feet.

Mar 1:15 and saying, The time is fulfilled, and the kingdom of God is at hand: repent ye, and believe in the gospel.

Mat 28:18 And Jesus came to them and spake unto them, saying, All authority hath been given unto me in heaven and on earth.

God set up His kingdom in the days of the 4th beast i.e. the Roman empire.

That's right! But the stone didn't strike and destroy that empire because the Roman empire lasted until the 4th century.

And Jesus was given all authority at that point, so, he would be responsible for Rome's breakup as he ruled from heaven thus the feet were crushed by him.

So maybe you could explain why the "fifth" empire is still in existence?

 

[parousia70]

Whatever it was,

Whatever it was? You mean we can't know? God is playing "hide n' seek" with us?

of course God is not playing hide and seek....I'm just pointing out audience relevance.

[quote:3652bp57]it applied to the Thessalonians of the first century as this man was alive and being restrained from his takeover of the temple in their day.

Question: If it applied to an event in the Thessalonians day what is it in the Bible for?[/quote:3652bp57]

Not sure I follow your line of reasoning here... are you suggesting that any scripture that contains a fulfilled prophesy is useless for us today?
Are you suggesting we should toss out the warnings of the impending flood in Genesis because they are not warnings about a futureTO us Flood?

Are you likewise suggesting that 2 Thessalonians was useless to the 1st century people to whom the letter was addressed and delivered to because, after all, you seem to be saying it was not for them?

[quote:3652bp57]
It's not an event in our future.

It's even at the door.[/quote:3652bp57]

When you say that, do you mean the same thing James meant when he said it 2000 years ago (James 5:8-9) or do you mean something different?

 

[parousia70]

The stone would be Jesus, the cornerstone.

That's right! I asked about the feet however, not the stone.

Scripture gives us the answer:

Matthew 21:40-45

40 “Therefore, when the Lord of the vineyard comes, what will he do to those vinedressers?â€
41 They said to Him, “He will destroy those wicked men miserably, and lease his vineyard to other vinedressers who will render to him the fruits in their seasons.â€
42 Jesus said to them, “Have you never read in the Scriptures:


‘ The stone which the builders rejected
Has become the chief cornerstone.
This was the LORD’s doing,
And it is marvelous in our eyes’?[j]

43 “Therefore I say to you, the kingdom of God will be taken from you and given to a nation bearing the fruits of it. 44 And whoever falls on this stone will be broken; but on whomever it falls, it will grind him to powder.â€
45 Now when the chief priests and Pharisees heard His parables, they understood that He was speaking of them. 46 But when they sought to lay hands on Him, they feared the multitudes, because they took Him for a prophet.

As stated in Matthew 21:40-45, the Lord of the Vineyard came to the apostate leaders of first-century Israel and was The Stone that crushed them to powder, removing the Kingdom of God from them and giving it to a new Nation. Jesus Christ, the Lord of heaven and earth, came in the glory of the Father and did so in the lifetimes of the apostles, exactly as he promised (Matt 16:27-28; 24:33-34).

 

[RND]

The stone would be Jesus, the cornerstone.

That's right! I asked about the feet however, not the stone.

Scripture gives us the answer:

Matthew 21:40-45

40 “Therefore, when the Lord of the vineyard comes, what will he do to those vinedressers?â€
41 They said to Him, “He will destroy those wicked men miserably, and lease his vineyard to other vinedressers who will render to him the fruits in their seasons.â€
42 Jesus said to them, “Have you never read in the Scriptures:


‘ The stone which the builders rejected
Has become the chief cornerstone.
This was the LORD’s doing,
And it is marvelous in our eyes’?[j]

43 “Therefore I say to you, the kingdom of God will be taken from you and given to a nation bearing the fruits of it. 44 And whoever falls on this stone will be broken; but on whomever it falls, it will grind him to powder.â€
45 Now when the chief priests and Pharisees heard His parables, they understood that He was speaking of them. 46 But when they sought to lay hands on Him, they feared the multitudes, because they took Him for a prophet.

As stated in Matthew 21:40-45, the Lord of the Vineyard came to the apostate leaders of first-century Israel and was The Stone that crushed them to powder, removing the Kingdom of God from them and giving it to a new Nation. Jesus Christ, the Lord of heaven and earth, came in the glory of the Father and did so in the lifetimes of the apostles, exactly as he promised (Matt 16:27-28; 24:33-34).

I know what the stone is, what about the "feet" of the statue in Daniel 2. That's the question.

 

[RND]

of course God is not playing hide and seek....I'm just pointing out audience relevance.

Audience relevance? Isn't all of God's word relevant?

[quote:3m8fibxc][quote:3m8fibxc]it applied to the Thessalonians of the first century as this man was alive and being restrained from his takeover of the temple in their day.

Question: If it applied to an event in the Thessalonians day what is it in the Bible for?[/quote:3m8fibxc]

Not sure I follow your line of reasoning here... are you suggesting that any scripture that contains a fulfilled prophesy is useless for us today?[/quote:3m8fibxc]

You would be assuming that 1 Thessalonians is fulfilled prophecy. It's not. Christ hasn't come in the clouds with great power and glory yet. No shout of the archangel, no trumpet.

Are you suggesting we should toss out the warnings of the impending flood in Genesis because they are not warnings about a futureTO us Flood?

Not at all. But then again the story of what happened in Genesis was not the fulfillment of prophecy. Unless you know something I don't.

Are you likewise suggesting that 2 Thessalonians was useless to the 1st century people to whom the letter was addressed and delivered to because, after all, you seem to be saying it was not for them?

What I'm suggesting is that the letter was relevant for them but was in no way describing that the Lord would be coming at that time.

When you say that, do you mean the same thing James meant when he said it 2000 years ago (James 5:8-9) or do you mean something different?

Same thing.

2Pe 3:8 But, beloved, be not ignorant of this one thing, that one day [is] with the Lord as a thousand years, and a thousand years as one day.

2,000 years ago was just two days ago in relation to the time of God.

 

[parousia70]

I know what the stone is

You agree the stone is the the Lord of The Vineyard that came and crushed those wicked vinedressers?

 

[parousia70]

Audience relevance? Isn't all of God's word relevant?

Of course it is.
although your position depends on the opposite being true.

You would be assuming that 1 Thessalonians is fulfilled prophecy. It's not.

Yours is the assumption, based solely on extra biblical evidence (or lack thereof).
It has no foundation on scripture.

the story of what happened in Genesis was not the fulfillment of prophecy. Unless you know something I don't.

You are kidding, right?

What I'm suggesting is that the letter was relevant for them

How?

[quote:sczj0uas]When you say that, do you mean the same thing James meant when he said it 2000 years ago (James 5:8-9) or do you mean something different?

Same thing.

2Pe 3:8 But, beloved, be not ignorant of this one thing, that one day [is] with the Lord as a thousand years, and a thousand years as one day.

2,000 years ago was just two days ago in relation to the time of God.[/quote:sczj0uas]

So when you say "even at the doors" you are trying to convey that it could be thousands of years away still?

 

[RND]

I know what the stone is

You agree the stone is the the Lord of The Vineyard that came and crushed those wicked vinedressers?

Yes, I think you have an usual take on the parable however. Now what's the feet in Daniel 2 represent?

 

[RND]

Of course it is.
although your position depends on the opposite being true.

Not at all.

Yours is the assumption, based solely on extra biblical evidence (or lack thereof).
It has no foundation on scripture.

Then you believe in preterism - that Jesus has already come. Clearly that hasn't happened.

You are kidding, right?

No, I'm not. Please, point out the prophecy in Genesis that states there will be a flood to wipe out the antediluvian world.

How?

Because Paul was explaining clearly what would happen in the latter days. He was telling the Thessalonians that they were not to be moved or shaken by what he wrote them.

2Th 2:2 That ye be not soon shaken in mind, or be troubled, neither by spirit, nor by word, nor by letter as from us, as that the day of Christ is at hand.

So when you say "even at the doors" you are trying to convey that it could be thousands of years away still?

Not me. I believe it could be any day now.

 

[researcher]

So maybe you could explain why the "fifth" empire is still in existence?

I'm not sure where you're getting the "fifth" empire. Is that like the fifth element?

I see 4 empires, and 10 kings rising out of the 4th.

 

[TheCatholic]

Excellent rebuttal, and I'm a Protestant Christian.

Even while Rome was still pagan, the Apostle Paul was under its protection and allowed to preach The Gospel to all those who visited his captivity home. That's something even the unbelieving in Jerusalem would not allow him to do.

Thank you. I had not considered that

 

[RND]

So maybe you could explain why the "fifth" empire is still in existence?

I'm not sure where you're getting the "fifth" empire. Is that like the fifth element?

You had insisted that there were only four elements to the statue of Daniel 2. Clearly there are five. Here it is again for you:The "feet" are part of the "fifth" kingdom which is pagan Rome.

1) Head, 2) Chest and arms, 3) Bell and thighs, 4) Legs, 5) Feet.

I see 4 empires, and 10 kings rising out of the 4th.

Really? I see "one" prominent "little horn" coming out of the midst of the 4th beast. Don't you see that?

Dan 7:24 And the ten horns out of this kingdom [are] ten kings [that] shall arise: and another shall rise after them; and he shall be diverse from the first, and he shall subdue three kings.

So clearly we see a "fifth" power coming out of the fourth beast after the rise of the ten horns. You see that right? And what does Daniel tell us about this "little horn?"

Dan 7:25 And he shall speak [great] words against the most High, and shall wear out the saints of the most High, and think to change times and laws: and they shall be given into his hand until a time and times and the dividing of time.

Who is that power that speaks against God, wears out of the saints of God, changes times and laws and lasts for 1,260 years? Jerusalem? Not even close!

 

[Ed the Ned]

To the Catholic: Trying to analyze what was said I submitted this article you wrote to Dave Hunt at The bereancall.org web site. I got a response to say that they were aware of this article and submitted the section of the book that this article tries to prove wrong. This then lead me to google the title of the article and I found a copy of it on http://www.catholic.net. It seems the article was given approval for publication in 2004 and the following was written at the end of the article.

NIHIL OBSTAT: I have concluded that the materials
presented in this work are free of doctrinal or moral errors.
Bernadeane Carr, STL, Censor Librorum, August 10, 2004

IMPRIMATUR: In accord with 1983 CIC 827
permission to publish this work is hereby granted.
+Robert H. Brom, Bishop of San Diego, August 10, 2004

Now what was written at the end is what confuses me the most. Could you please explain why permission needs to be given to publish this article. Who is in charge God or the Papacy (The woman on the beast)

Could you also please identify if you are the author of this article? If so it would be great as you would be the right person to explain the section above.
If you are not the author could you explain why you did not credit the author in your post.

If this has gone beyond the rules I apologize, but the attack was made on Dave Hunt and his analysis of revelations which is end time prophecy.

I would like to go back to this previous question I asked the member who started this thread?

 

[researcher]

So maybe you could explain why the "fifth" empire is still in existence?

I'm not sure where you're getting the "fifth" empire. Is that like the fifth element?

You had insisted that there were only four elements to the statue of Daniel 2. Clearly there are five. Here it is again for you:The "feet" are part of the "fifth" kingdom which is pagan Rome.

1) Head, 2) Chest and arms, 3) Bell and thighs, 4) Legs, 5) Feet.

[quote:25b7cfiz]I see 4 empires, and 10 kings rising out of the 4th.

Really? I see "one" prominent "little horn" coming out of the midst of the 4th beast. Don't you see that?

Dan 7:24 And the ten horns out of this kingdom [are] ten kings [that] shall arise: and another shall rise after them; and he shall be diverse from the first, and he shall subdue three kings.

So clearly we see a "fifth" power coming out of the fourth beast after the rise of the ten horns. You see that right? And what does Daniel tell us about this "little horn?"

Dan 7:25 And he shall speak [great] words against the most High, and shall wear out the saints of the most High, and think to change times and laws: and they shall be given into his hand until a time and times and the dividing of time.

Who is that power that speaks against God, wears out of the saints of God, changes times and laws and lasts for 1,260 years? Jerusalem? Not even close![/quote:25b7cfiz]
I see only four.

Dan 7:3 And four great beasts came up from the sea, diverse one from another.

Dan 7:17 These great beasts, which are four, are four kings, that shall arise out of the earth.

Dan 7:19 Then I desired to know the truth concerning the fourth beast

Dan 7:23 Thus he said, The fourth beast shall be a fourth kingdom upon earth, which shall be diverse from all the kingdoms, and shall devour the whole earth, and shall tread it down, and break it in pieces.

And 10 kings coming from the 4th kingdom (like 10 Presidents coming out of the United States)

Dan 7:24 And as for the ten horns, out of this kingdom shall ten kings arise: and another shall arise after them; and he shall be diverse from the former, and he shall put down three kings.

As for the 1260 years, I believe most commentators put the time, times and half time as years. The 3 1/2 years of Revelation.

Dan 7:25 And he shall speak words against the Most High, and shall wear out the saints of the Most High; and he shall think to change the times and the law; and they shall be given into his hand until a time and times and half a time.

Rev 11:2 And the court which is without the temple leave without, and measure it not; for it hath been given unto the nations: and the holy city shall they tread under foot forty and two months.

Rev 12:6 And the woman fled into the wilderness, where she hath a place prepared of God, that there they may nourish her a thousand two hundred and threescore days.

Rev 13:5 and there was given to him a mouth speaking great things and blasphemies; and there was given to him authority to continue forty and two months.

Commentary on the times:

In prophetic language a time signifies a year; and a prophetic year has a year for each day. Three years and a half (a day standing for a year, as in Joh_9:24) will amount to one thousand two hundred and sixty years, if we reckon thirty days to each month, as the Jews do.

Adam Clarke's Commentary on the Bible

Until a time, and times, and the dividing of time; by "a time" is meant a year, the longest part of time; by "times", two years; and "the dividing of time", half a year; in all three years and a half, which is the same with 1260 days, or forty two months, the time of the witnesses prophesying in sackcloth, and of the reign of antichrist; so long shall he continue, exercising his power and authority, his wrath and rage, and blasphemy, and no longer; see Rev_11:2.

John Gill's Exposition of the Entire Bible

time, times, and half a time (that is, for three years and a half), that famous prophetical measure of time which we meet with in the Revelation, which is sometimes called forty-two months, sometimes 1260 days, which come all to one.

Matthew Henry’s Commentary on the Whole Bible