Hunting the Whore of Babylon

[RND]

I see only four.

OK, let's go back to the original point regarding the statue vision in Daniel 2. There are 5 parts to that vision. 1) Head, 2) Chest and arms, 3) Bell and thighs, 4) Legs, 5) Feet. You stated there were only 4. Now, if you understand the book of Daniel you understand that the book is a "chiastic" (chiasm) writing. Do you know what a chiasm is? Chapter 1 is the introduction and chapters 2 and 7, 3 and 6, and 4 and 5 are mirrors of each other in repeating the same theme. Thus, just as there are 5 parts to Daniel 2 and the vision of the statue there are five parts to the vision of Daniel 7.

And 10 kings coming from the 4th kingdom (like 10 Presidents coming out of the United States)

The fourth kingdom is Rome, not the United States. It matches the Legs of Iron of Daniel two. It has iron teeth. It breaks things. Do you not see that another beast comes from the midst of these ten kings?

Dan 7:24 And as for the ten horns, out of this kingdom shall ten kings arise: and another shall arise after them; and he shall be diverse from the former, and he shall put down three kings.

After the ten kingdoms arise another arises after them.

As for the 1260 years, I believe most commentators put the time, times and half time as years. The 3 1/2 years of Revelation.

A day for a year is specific to Bible prophecy. See Numbers 14:34 and Ezekiel 4:6.

Num 14:34 After the number of the days in which ye searched the land, [even] forty days, each day for a year, shall ye bear your iniquities, [even] forty years, and ye shall know my breach of promise.

Eze 4:6 And when thou hast accomplished them, lie again on thy right side, and thou shalt bear the iniquity of the house of Judah forty days: I have appointed thee each day for a year.

Now, read Adam Clarke again, this time very carefully:

In prophetic language a time signifies a year; and a prophetic year has a year for each day. Three years and a half (a day standing for a year, as in Joh_9:24) will amount to one thousand two hundred and sixty years, if we reckon thirty days to each month, as the Jews do.

Adam Clarke's Commentary on the Bible

You have posted 3 commentaries but they don't all say the same thing.

 

[researcher]

The fourth kingdom is Rome, not the United States.

Yes, I believe that. I was just using it as an example. ;)

I see Clark uses the year thing also. There are a few other commentators I'll have to check.

Back later after work. ;)

 

[researcher]

Oops, here's one real quick:

Dan 4:16 Let his heart be changed from man's, and let a beast's heart be given unto him; and let seven times pass over him.

Dan 4:32 And they shall drive thee from men, and thy dwelling shall be with the beasts of the field: they shall make thee to eat grass as oxen, and seven times shall pass over thee, until thou know that the most High ruleth in the kingdom of men, and giveth it to whomsoever he will.

How long were those times? :o ;)

 

[RND]

Oops, here's one real quick:

Dan 4:16 Let his heart be changed from man's, and let a beast's heart be given unto him; and let seven times pass over him.

Dan 4:32 And they shall drive thee from men, and thy dwelling shall be with the beasts of the field: they shall make thee to eat grass as oxen, and seven times shall pass over thee, until thou know that the most High ruleth in the kingdom of men, and giveth it to whomsoever he will.

How long were those times? :o ;)

They were years. Nebuchadnezzar was a wild beast for seven years. Now were those descriptive uses or were those uses related to prophecy? See the difference?

 

[researcher]

Oops, here's one real quick:

Dan 4:16 Let his heart be changed from man's, and let a beast's heart be given unto him; and let seven times pass over him.

Dan 4:32 And they shall drive thee from men, and thy dwelling shall be with the beasts of the field: they shall make thee to eat grass as oxen, and seven times shall pass over thee, until thou know that the most High ruleth in the kingdom of men, and giveth it to whomsoever he will.

How long were those times? :o ;)

They were years. Nebuchadnezzar was a wild beast for seven years. Now were those descriptive uses or were those uses related to prophecy? See the difference?

Yes, but Daniel seems to be the only one to use the "times" description. I think it's best to use precedence in this case where Daniel uses the words time and times to describe years in his earlier writings, and continued to use it in his later writing. Thus, it should be the same thing. ;)

 

[RND]

Thus, it should be the same thing. ;)

One description is dealing with one thing (the madness of Nebuchadnezzar) the other is prophecy. There is a huge difference.

So, have you manged to figure out what the ten toes represent yet?

 

[parousia70]

Yours is the assumption, based solely on extra biblical evidence (or lack thereof).
It has no foundation on scripture.

Then you believe in preterism - that Jesus has already come. Clearly that hasn't happened.

again, you base your position SOLELY on extra Biblical evidence (or lack thereof), and not on scripture alone as I do.

You are kidding, right?

No, I'm not. Please, point out the prophecy in Genesis that states there will be a flood to wipe out the antediluvian world.

Genesis 7:4
4 Seven days from now I will send rain on the earth for forty days and forty nights, and I will wipe from the face of the earth every living creature I have made."

[quote:1zjx7cpk]So when you say "even at the doors" you are trying to convey that it could be thousands of years away still?

Not me. I believe it could be any day now.[/quote:1zjx7cpk]

But you said you meant the same thing James meant.....

What do you know that James didn't?

 

[RND]

again, you base your position SOLELY on extra Biblical evidence (or lack thereof), and not on scripture alone as I do.

Jesus has not come back to earth a second time. The preterist view you espouse has been proven to be nonsense.

Genesis 7:4
4 Seven days from now I will send rain on the earth for forty days and forty nights, and I will wipe from the face of the earth every living creature I have made."

This is a description from Moshe recording what God said at that time. In other words it was a description of a "past" and not "future" event in that the flood had already occurred when Moshe wrote this. Not prophecy.

But you said you meant the same thing James meant.....

Peter.

What do you know that James didn't?

Nothing frankly. You seem to be missing the point. Jesus is at the door. That's sanctuary language for entering into the Tabernacle. He was at the door then and He is in the Tabernacle now. That was 2,000 years ago. A day with God is like 1,000 years. Thus it was only two short days ago that Christ died and entered into the Heavenly Sanctuary. So He is still at the door, very close to returning.

 

[parousia70]

Jesus has not come back to earth a second time. The preterist view you espouse has been proven to be nonsense.

Hardly

[quote:1zj8ne15]Genesis 7:4
4 Seven days from now I will send rain on the earth for forty days and forty nights, and I will wipe from the face of the earth every living creature I have made."

This is a description from Moshe recording what God said at that time. In other words it was a description of a "past" and not "future" event in that the flood had already occurred when Moshe wrote this. Not prophecy. [/quote:1zj8ne15]

Of course it was prophecy when God Spoke it.
It's simply fulfilled prophecy now.

That was 2,000 years ago. A day with God is like 1,000 years..

So, when God in genesis said "in 7 days I will make it rain 40 days...." He meant "in 7000 years I will make it rain 40,000 years..." since as you say, God is bound by this mathmatical formula of "a day is a thousand years"?

Thus it was only two short days ago that Christ died and entered into the Heavenly Sanctuary. So He is still at the door, very close to returning

Yet your position mandates that you admit that it could still be thousands of years away....

 

[RND]

Hardly

No, not hardly. The earth is still here and the resurrection of the dead has yet to happen.

2Pe 3:10 ¶ But the day of the Lord will come as a thief in the night; in the which the heavens shall pass away with a great noise, and the elements shall melt with fervent heat, the earth also and the works that are therein shall be burned up. 2Pe 3:11 [Seeing] then [that] all these things shall be dissolved, what manner [of persons] ought ye to be in [all] holy conversation and godliness, 2Pe 3:12 Looking for and hasting unto the coming of the day of God, wherein the heavens being on fire shall be dissolved, and the elements shall melt with fervent heat?

Of course it was prophecy when God Spoke it.
It's simply fulfilled prophecy now.

That's like saying the light on the room is still on after the light has been turned off and everyone has left the room!

Genesis 7:4 is not prophecy but a description of what Moshe relates God said to Noah.

So, when God in genesis said "in 7 days I will make it rain 40 days...." He meant "in 7000 years I will make it rain 40,000 years..." since as you say, God is bound by this mathmatical formula of "a day is a thousand years"?

Nope. 7 earth days in God's time line wouldn't amount to much.

Yet your position mandates that you admit that it could still be thousands of years away....

Or it could be tomorrow. Most likely it will be quite soon. When I have no idea. However, whether it is tomorrow or a thousand years from now is irrelevant to me and my belief system.

Of course, I don't see why you would care considering as a preterist you believe He has already come.

 

[parousia70]

Hardly

No, not hardly. The earth is still here and the resurrection of the dead has yet to happen.

2Pe 3:10 ¶ But the day of the Lord will come as a thief in the night; in the which the heavens shall pass away with a great noise, and the elements shall melt with fervent heat, the earth also and the works that are therein shall be burned up. 2Pe 3:11 [Seeing] then [that] all these things shall be dissolved, what manner [of persons] ought ye to be in [all] holy conversation and godliness, 2Pe 3:12 Looking for and hasting unto the coming of the day of God, wherein the heavens being on fire shall be dissolved, and the elements shall melt with fervent heat?

How do you know this hasn't happened yet?
You don't, unless you are relying SOLELY on EXTRA BIBLICAL EVIDENCE and pre conceived notions of what 2 Peter 3 teaches.

As for me, I understand that:
A)Jesus applied His thief in the night coming to 1st century people, and Jesus does not Lie:

Revelation 3:3
Remember therefore how you [first century Church of Sardis] have received and heard; hold fast and repent. Therefore if you [first century Church of Sardis]will not watch, I will come upon you[first century Church of Sardis] as a thief, and you[first century Church of Sardis] will not know what hour I will come upon you[first century Church of Sardis].

and B) The word "elements" in 2 Peter is ALWAYS used in scripture to refer to the basic principles of the Mosaic Law which did indeed burn with furvent heat in 70AD as prophesied

and C) the Language of "Heavens dissolving" and "earth Burning" is common Hebrew prophetic idiom used to describe the fall of nations. Such is the way Isaiah used it to describe the Fall of Edom in Is 34.
The OT is packed full of such spectacular Judgements. Yahweh is depicted as having destroyed the universe when he judged Israel through Babylon (Jer 4:22-30), and did so again when he judged Egypt by Babylon's King Nebuchadnezzar (Ez 32:1-16).

Only those who either do not know how the Bible uses this language or Do not WANT to know how the Bible uses this language would come to the Hyper Literal Conclusions you do when reading 2 Peter 3 in a vacuum.

[quote:u6r0vyxc]Of course it was prophecy when God Spoke it.
It's simply fulfilled prophecy now.

That's like saying the light on the room is still on after the light has been turned off and everyone has left the room![/quote:u6r0vyxc]

LOL.
You Deny that At the time God Spoke this to Noah, 7 days prior to sending the rain, God spoke a Prophesy?
LOL

[quote:u6r0vyxc]So, when God in genesis said "in 7 days I will make it rain 40 days...." He meant "in 7000 years I will make it rain 40,000 years..." since as you say, God is bound by this mathmatical formula of "a day is a thousand years"?

Nope. 7 earth days in God's time line wouldn't amount to much. [/quote:u6r0vyxc]

But your position mandates that when God uses time statements like these, they are meant to be understood by how time relates to God, not how it relates to us. so you must insist God MEANT 7000 years when He SAID 7 Days. If you were consistant anyway, which you clearly aren't.

[quote:u6r0vyxc]Yet your position mandates that you admit that it could still be thousands of years away....

Or it could be tomorrow. Most likely it will be quite soon.[/quote:u6r0vyxc]


that's exactly what ALL the apostles Believed and taught 2000 years ago, and your position claimes they were DEAD WRONG.

But apparently you know something they didn't.

When I have no idea. However, whether it is tomorrow or a thousand years from now is irrelevant to me and my belief system.

And If it happened 2000 years ago it's irrelevant to the status of your salvation, so why do you care anyway?

 

[RND]

How do you know this hasn't happened yet?
You don't, unless you are relying SOLELY on EXTRA BIBLICAL EVIDENCE and pre conceived notions of what 2 Peter 3 teaches.

Because earth is still here and there hasn't been a resurrection yet. Honestly, if such an event of such monumental note had taken place we would have reams of documentation to prove it happened. There is -zero- historical documentation to prove that the graves opened and millions of people were resurrected.

You argument falls flat on it's face from that point alone.

As for me, I understand that:
A)Jesus applied His thief in the night coming to 1st century people, and Jesus does not Lie:

Revelation 3:3
Remember therefore how you [first century Church of Sardis] have received and heard; hold fast and repent. Therefore if you [first century Church of Sardis]will not watch, I will come upon you[first century Church of Sardis] as a thief, and you[first century Church of Sardis] will not know what hour I will come upon you[first century Church of Sardis].

Jesus was describing the various stages of church history with the various circuits of the church. This was done as John was in vision. Most scholars place the writing of Revelation around 90-95AD, long after the destruction of Jerusalem.

To put things in proper perspective when John wrote regarding the church at Smyrna:

Rev 2:10 Fear none of those things which thou shalt suffer: behold, the devil shall cast [some] of you into prison, that ye may be tried; and ye shall have tribulation ten days: be thou faithful unto death, and I will give thee a crown of life.

The ten days of tribulation is specifically referring to the 10 year reign of terror Diocletian raged against all the Christian believers in Rome. By using the 'day for a year" principle for Bible prophecy (Numbers 14:34/Ezekiel 4:6) we can see from historical facts how this prophecy was fulfilled already.

"The Diocletianic Persecution (or Great Persecution) was the last and most severe persecution of Christians in the Roman empire.[1] In 303, Emperor Diocletian and his colleagues Maximian, Galerius, and Constantius issued a series of edicts rescinding the legal rights of Christians and demanding that they comply with traditional religious practices. Later edicts targeted the clergy and demanded universal sacrifice, ordering all inhabitants to sacrifice to the gods. The persecution varied in intensity across the empire—weakest in Gaul and Britain, where only the first edict was applied, and strongest in the Eastern provinces. Persecutory laws were nullified by different emperors at different times, but Constantine and Licinius's Edict of Milan (313) has traditionally marked the end of the persecution."

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Diocletianic_Persecution

303-AD to 313AD. Ain't Bible prophecy grand!?

and B) The word "elements" in 2 Peter is ALWAYS used in scripture to refer to the basic principles of the Mosaic Law which did indeed burn with furvent heat in 70AD as prophesied

Always? Really? I think you are stretching the common understanding of the word stoicheion to a whole new level!

and C) the Language of "Heavens dissolving" and "earth Burning" is common Hebrew prophetic idiom used to describe the fall of nations. Such is the way Isaiah used it to describe the Fall of Edom in Is 34. The OT is packed full of such spectacular Judgements. Yahweh is depicted as having destroyed the universe when he judged Israel through Babylon (Jer 4:22-30), and did so again when he judged Egypt by Babylon's King Nebuchadnezzar (Ez 32:1-16).

Only those who either do not know how the Bible uses this language or Do not WANT to know how the Bible uses this language would come to the Hyper Literal Conclusions you do when reading 2 Peter 3 in a vacuum.

And only those tied the the ridiculous belief that the resurrection has already taken place and that the son of man has already returned would seek to deny the obvious of Peter's language. By repeating Isaiah 34 Peter is drawing an analogy to what had happened in the past to what will happen in the future - a common theme amongst all the writers of the NT!

"But the day of the Lord will come as a thief in the night" is commonly referred to in scripture as being the 'last day' and that certain thing must taken place before the last day happens.

LOL.
You Deny that At the time God Spoke this to Noah, 7 days prior to sending the rain, God spoke a Prophesy?
LOL

:o Nope, I'm not denying any such thing. I'm simply and logically suggesting that something is not prophecy if the event had already happened and then someone decided to write about it!

An example would be to suggest that a newspaper reporter was somehow 'prophesying' about a car accident he wrote about. He wouldn't be prophesying about the accident simply because he wrote about it!

Moshe was writing about an event that had already happened, not something that would take place.

But your position mandates that when God uses time statements like these, they are meant to be understood by how time relates to God, not how it relates to us. so you must insist god MEANT 7000 years when he SAID 7 Days. If you were consistant anyway, which you clearly aren't.

Again, I think you are adding things into what is being said simply because you have a limited understanding because of you belief system.

Let's review.

"But, beloved, be not ignorant of this one thing, that one day is with the Lord as a thousand years, and a thousand years as one day."

Living one day "with the Lord" is like a 1,00 years. The key to understanding this verse isthe phrase "with the Lord."

that's exactly what ALL the apostles Believed and taught 2000 years ago, and your position claimes they were DEAD WRONG.
But apparently you know something they didn't.

Not at all. They never taught that it was any more immediate in their day as to happen right away. And again, with there understanding of a 1,000 years is like 'one day" with God then 2,000 years only equates to 2 days.

And If it happened 2000 years ago it's irrelevant to the status of your salvation, so why do you care anyway?

Well, you just answered everything for us with your use of the word "if."

I care simply because preterism is a false teaching invented by the Jesuits during the Reformation to claim the Antichrist was Nero's Rome and not the Papacy. Unfortunately more and more and more Christians have bought into the lie of preterism and futureism; when prophecy in scripture is was the telling of future events before they happen - that preterism and futureism again take people's eyes off of Rome and the Papacy.

 

[TheCatholic]

....I care simply because preterism is a false teaching invented by the Jesuits during the Reformation to claim the Antichrist was Nero's Rome and not the Papacy......

LOL. You listen to everything your guru Ellen White proclaims, don't you. You impose Old Testament legalisms on your followers and then have the nerve to talk about false teachings? Of COURSE Nero was the antichrist. He proclaimed himself a god and that people must worship him. I don't remember the pope ever saying that. Go get a life

 

[RND]

[LOL. You listen to everything your guru Ellen White proclaims, don't you.

Truth is hard to argue with.

You impose Old Testament legalisms on your followers and then have the nerve to talk about false teachings?

I haven't imposed anything on anyone. Why the guilty conscience?

Of COURSE Nero was the antichrist.

My Bible tells me that anyone that denies Jesus is the son of God is an antichrist - they were in the world in John's day and they have always been in the world.

He proclaimed himself a god and that people must worship him. I don't remember the pope ever saying that. Go get a life

You mean you've never heard the Catholic church's teaching that the Pope is Christ's replacement on earth? Really?

"Take care that we lose not that salvation, that life and breath which thou hast given us, for thou art our shepherd, thou art our physician, thou art our governor, thou art our husbandman, thou art finally another God on earth." -- Christopher Marcellus in Oration addressing Pope Julius II, in Fifth Lateran Council, Session IV (1512), Council Edition. Colm. Agrip. 1618, (Sacrorum Conciliorum, J.D. Mansi (ed.), Vol. 32, col. 761), (also quoted in History of the Councils, vol. XIV, col 109, by Labbe and Cossart).

"Those whom the Pope of Rome doth separate, it is not a man that separates them but God. For the Pope holdeth place on earth, not simply of a man but of the true God....dissolves, not by human but rather by divine authority....I am in all and above all, so that God Himself and I, the vicar of God, hath both one consistory, and I am able to do almost all that God can do...wherefore, if those things that I do be said not to be done of man, but of God, what do you make of me but God? Again, if prelates of the Church be called of Constantine for gods, I then being above all prelates, seem by this reason to be above all gods." -- Decretales Domini Gregori ix Translatione Episcoporum, (on the Transference of Bishops), title 7, chapter 3; Corpus Juris Canonice (2nd Leipzig ed., 1881), col. 99; (Paris, 1612), tom. 2, Decretales, col. 205 (while Innocent III was Pope).

"The Pope takes the place of Jesus Christ on earth...by divine right the Pope has supreme and full power in faith, in morals over each and every pastor and his flock. He is the true vicar, the head of the entire church, the father and teacher of all Christians. He is the infallible ruler, the founder of dogmas, the author of and the judge of councils; the universal ruler of truth, the arbiter of the world, the supreme judge of heaven and earth, the judge of all, being judged by no one, God himself on earth." -- Quoted in the New York Catechism.

"The Pope and God are the same, so he has all power in Heaven and earth." -- Pope Pius V, quoted in Barclay, Chapter XXVII, p. 218, "Cities Petrus Bertanous".

This is blasphemy of the highest order and well predicted by the Holy Scriptures:

Rev 13:1 ¶ And I stood upon the sand of the sea, and saw a beast rise up out of the sea, having seven heads and ten horns, and upon his horns ten crowns, and upon his heads the name of blasphemy.

Rev 13:5 And there was given unto him a mouth speaking great things and blasphemies; and power was given unto him to continue forty [and] two months.

 

[parousia70]

How do you know this hasn't happened yet?
You don't, unless you are relying SOLELY on EXTRA BIBLICAL EVIDENCE and pre conceived notions of what 2 Peter 3 teaches.

Because earth is still here and there hasn't been a resurrection yet. Honestly, if such an event of such monumental note had taken place we would have reams of documentation to prove it happened. There is -zero- historical documentation to prove that the graves opened and millions of people were resurrected.

Proving my point that you rest you hat on EXTRA BIBLICAL evidence ALONE. You have to.
Scripture is abundant with such language of global catastrophy that describes localized judgments that have already taken place:

Again, when you read 2 peter 3 in a vacuum as you do, you easily hyper literalize this language away from the author's intent.

[quote:2l10awl1]As for me, I understand that:
A)Jesus applied His thief in the night coming to 1st century people, and Jesus does not Lie:

Revelation 3:3
Remember therefore how you [first century Church of Sardis] have received and heard; hold fast and repent. Therefore if you [first century Church of Sardis]will not watch, I will come upon you[first century Church of Sardis] as a thief, and you[first century Church of Sardis] will not know what hour I will come upon you[first century Church of Sardis].

Jesus was describing the various stages of church history with the various circuits of the church.[/quote:2l10awl1]
Show me the scripture that teaches this.

Most scholars place the writing of Revelation around 90-95AD, long after the destruction of Jerusalem.

Incorrect.
The Bulk of Bible scholars favor the pre 70 date for the book.
We can see who possesses the list with the greater number of scholars if you want... I've got mine handy.

in Revelation 3:3 Christ PROMISED that his thief's coming ( which you rightly cement to the last day) would befall real air breathing, blood pumping human beings alive in the 1st century.

Your view claims He did not fulfill that promise.
I reject such nonsense.

To put things in proper perspective when John wrote regarding the church at Smyrna:

Rev 2:10 Fear none of those things which thou shalt suffer: behold, the devil shall cast [some] of you into prison, that ye may be tried; and ye shall have tribulation ten days: be thou faithful unto death, and I will give thee a crown of life.

The ten days of tribulation is specifically referring to the 10 year reign of terror Diocletian raged against all the Christian believers in Rome. By using the 'day for a year" principle for Bible prophecy (Numbers 14:34/Ezekiel 4:6) we can see from historical facts how this prophecy was fulfilled already.

I though a day equals 1000 years, not "one year" with you folks....
When you decide which one you want, let me know and I'll respond accordingly

[quote:2l10awl1]and B) The word "elements" in 2 Peter is ALWAYS used in scripture to refer to the basic principles of the Mosaic Law which did indeed burn with furvent heat in 70AD as prophesied

Always? Really? I think you are stretching the common understanding of the word stoicheion to a whole new level! [/quote:2l10awl1]
Observe for yourself:

* Galatians 4:3 KJV

Even so we, when we were children, were in bondage under the elements of the world:

* Galatians 4:9 KJV

But now, after that ye have known God, or rather are known of God, how turn ye again to the weak and beggarly elements, whereunto ye desire again to be in bondage ?

* Hebrews 5:12 KJV

For when for the time ye ought to be teachers, ye have need that one teach you again which be the first principles of the oracles of God; and are become such as have need of milk, and not of strong meat.

Colossians 2:8
8 Beware lest anyone cheat you through philosophy and empty deceit, according to the tradition of men, according to the basic principles of the world, and not according to Christ.

Colossians 2:20-21
0 Therefore,[e] if you died with Christ from the basic principles of the world, why, as though living in the world, do you subject yourselves to regulations— 21 “Do not touch, do not taste, do not handle,â€

Colossians 2:20 is especially instructive as it plainly states that the elements, principles (stoicheion) of the world are indeed the "basic rudimentary principles of the Mosaic Law" - Do not eat, do not touch, etc....

So when we read 2 peter 3 with the previously well established meaning of stoicheion, we come to the rightful conclusion that I have spelled out.

[quote:2l10awl1]and C) the Language of "Heavens dissolving" and "earth Burning" is common Hebrew prophetic idiom used to describe the fall of nations. Such is the way Isaiah used it to describe the Fall of Edom in Is 34. The OT is packed full of such spectacular Judgements. Yahweh is depicted as having destroyed the universe when he judged Israel through Babylon (Jer 4:22-30), and did so again when he judged Egypt by Babylon's King Nebuchadnezzar (Ez 32:1-16).

Only those who either do not know how the Bible uses this language or Do not WANT to know how the Bible uses this language would come to the Hyper Literal Conclusions you do when reading 2 Peter 3 in a vacuum.

And only those tied the the ridiculous belief that the resurrection has already taken place and that the son of man has already returned would seek to deny the obvious of Peter's language. By repeating Isaiah 34 Peter is drawing an analogy to what had happened in the past to what will happen in the future - a common theme amongst all the writers of the NT! [/quote:2l10awl1]

So you claim the heavens dissolved and rolled up like a scroll and all the earth was burned before?
Where is the historical evidence of the monumental global catastrophy?

Let's review.

"But, beloved, be not ignorant of this one thing, that one day is with the Lord as a thousand years, and a thousand years as one day."

Living one day "with the Lord" is like a 1,00 years. The key to understanding this verse is the phrase "with the Lord."

What of the "and" in the phrase?
"that one day is with the Lord as a thousand years, and a thousand years as one day."

Peter is not repeating the same thing here, he is contrasting.
one God day is as 1000 earth years AND one earth day is as 1000 God years.
Peter is merely saying God is timeless, not that he is bound by some absurd math formula for ho time affects Him.

Your view means that even if God wanted 1000 earth years to seem like half a day to Him, He could not because He is bound for 1000 earth years to be exactly one day to him.
We of course know this to be preposterous.

The Psalmist that Peter is quoting gives us further proof that your theory is false:

Psalm 90:4 For a thousand years in Your sight
Are like yesterday when it is past,
And like a watch in the night.

RND, a Hebrew "watch in the Night" lasted anywhere from 3-6 hours.
The Psalmist claims here that 1000 years are as 3-6 hrs for God, or as yesterday that has already past.
God is timeless. Period.
If God wants one earth day to seem like 1000 years TO HIM, scripture is clear that He can and does.

2Peter 3 is not a mathematical formula for prophesy time calculations.

 

[parousia70]

]

that's exactly what ALL the apostles Believed and taught 2000 years ago, and your position claimes they were DEAD WRONG.
But apparently you know something they didn't.

Not at all. They never taught that it was any more immediate in their day as to happen right away.

You make this TOO easy

1. "The Kingdom of Heaven is at hand." (Matt. 3:2)

2. "Who warned you to flee from the wrath about to come?" (Matt. 3:7)

3. "The axe is already laid at the root of the trees." (Matt. 3:10)

4. "His winnowing fork is in His hand." (Matt. 3:12)

5. "The kingdom of heaven is at hand." (Matt. 4:17)

6. "The kingdom of heaven is at hand." (Matt. 10:7)

7. "You shall not finish going through the cities of Israel, until the Son of Man comes." (Matt. 10:23)

8. "...the age about to come." (Matt. 12:32)

9. "The Son of Man is about to come in the glory of His Father with His angels; and will then recompense every man according to his deeds." (Matt. 16:27)

10. "There are some of those who are standing here who shall not taste death until they see the Son of Man coming in His kingdom." (Matt. 16:28; cf. Mk. 9:1; Lk. 9:27)

11. "'When the owner of the vineyard comes, what will he do to those vine-growers?' '...He will bring those wretches to a wretched end, and will rent out the vineyard to other vine-growers, who will pay him the proceeds at the proper seasons.' '...Therefore I say to you, the kingdom of God will be taken away from you, and be given to a nation producing the fruit of it.' ...When the chief priests and the Pharisees heard His parables, they understood that He was speaking about them." (Matt. 21:40-41,43,45)

12. "This generation will not pass away until all these things take place." (Matt. 24:34)

13. "From now on, you [Caiaphas, the chief priests, the scribes, the elders, the whole Sanhedrin] shall be seeing the Son of Man sitting at the right hand of Power, and coming on the clouds of heaven." (Matt. 26:64; Mk. 14:62; Lk. 22:69)

14. "The kingdom of God is at hand." (Mk. 1:15)

15. "What will the owner of the vineyard do? He will come and destroy the vine-growers, and will give the vineyard to others. ...They [the chief priests, scribes and elders] understood that He spoke the parable against them." (Mk. 12:9,12)

16. "This generation will not pass away until all these things take place." (Mk. 13:30)

17. "Who warned you to flee from the wrath about to come?" (Lk. 3:7)

18. "The axe is already laid at the root of the trees." (Lk. 3:9)

19. "His winnowing fork is in His hand..." (Lk. 3:17)

20. "The kingdom of God has come near to you." (Lk. 10:9)

21. "The kingdom of God has come near." (Lk. 10:11)

22. "What, therefore, will the owner of the vineyard do to them? He will come and destroy these vine-growers and will give the vineyard to others." ...The scribes and the chief priests...understood that He spoke this parable against them." (Lk. 20:15-16,19)

23. "These are days of vengeance, in order that all things which are written may be fulfilled." (Lk. 21:22)

24. "This generation will not pass away until all things take place." (Lk. 21:32)

25. "Daughters of Jerusalem, stop weeping for Me, but weep for yourselves and for your children. For behold, the days are coming when they will say, 'Blessed are the barren, and the wombs that never bore, and the breasts that never nursed.' Then they will begin to say to the mountains, 'Fall on us,' and to the hills, 'Cover us.'" (Lk. 23:28-30; Compare Rev. 6:14-17)

26. "We were hoping that He was the One who is about to redeem Israel." (Lk. 24:21)

27. "I will come to you. ...In that Day you shall know that I am in My Father, and you in Me, and I in you.' ...'Lord, what then has happened that You are about to disclose Yourself to us, and not to the world?'" (Jn. 14:18,20,22)

28. "If I want him to remain until I come, what is that to you?" (Jn. 21:22)

29. "This is what was spoken of through the prophet Joel: 'And it shall be in the last days...'" (Acts 2:16-17)

30. "He has fixed a day in which He is about to judge the world in righteousness..." (Acts 17:31)

31. "There is about to be a resurrection of both the righteous and the wicked." (Acts 24:15)

32. "As he was discussing righteousness, self-control and the judgment about to come..." (Acts 24:25)

33. "Not for [Abraham's] sake only was it written, that [faith] was reckoned to him [as righteousness], but for our sake also, to whom it is about to be reckoned." (Rom. 4:23-24)

34. "If you are living according to the flesh, you are about to die." (Rom. 8:13)

35. "I consider that the sufferings of this present time are not worthy to be compared with the glory that is about to be revealed to us." (Rom. 8:18)

36. "It is already the hour for you to awaken from sleep; for now salvation is nearer to us than when we believed. The night is almost gone, and the day is at hand." (Rom. 13:11-12)

37. "The God of peace will soon crush Satan under your feet." (Rom. 16:20)

38. "The time has been shortened." (I Cor. 7:29)

39. "The form of this world is passing away." (I Cor. 7:31)

40. "Now these things ...were written for our instruction, upon whom the ends of the ages have come." (I Cor. 10:11)

41. "We shall not all fall sleep, but we shall all be changed, in a moment, in the twinkling of an eye, at the last trumpet; for the trumpet will sound, and the dead will be raised imperishable, and we shall be changed." (I Cor. 15:51-52)

42. "Maranatha!" [The Lord comes!] (I Cor. 16:22)

43. "...not only in this age, but also in the one about to come." (Eph. 1:21)

44. "The Lord is near." (Phil. 4:5)

45. "The gospel ...was proclaimed in all creation under heaven." (Col. 1:23; Compare Matt. 24:14; Rom. 10:18; 16:26; Col. 1:5-6; II Tim. 4:17; Rev. 14:6-7; cf. I Clement 5,7)

46. "...things which are a shadow of what is about to come." (Col. 2:16-17)

47. "...we who are alive, and remain until the coming of the Lord... We who are alive and remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds... ...You, brethren, are not in darkness, that the Day should overtake you like a thief." (I Thess. 4:15,17; 5:4)

48. "May your spirit and soul and body be preserved complete, without blame at the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ." (I Thess. 5:23)

49. "It is only just for God to repay with affliction those who afflict you, and to give relief to you who are afflicted and to us as well when the Lord Jesus shall be revealed from heaven with His mighty angels in flaming fire." (II Thess. 1:6-7)

50. "Godliness ...holds promise for the present life and that which is about to come." (I Tim. 4:8)

51. "I charge you ...that you keep the commandment without stain or reproach until the appearing of our Lord Jesus Christ." (I Tim. 6:14)

52. "...storing up for themselves the treasure of a good foundation for that which is about to come, so that they may take hold of that which is life indeed." (I Tim. 6:19)

53. "In the last days difficult times will come. For men will be lovers of self... ...Avoid these men. For of these are those who enter into households and captivate weak women... ...These also oppose the truth... ...But they will not make further progress; for their folly will be obvious to all..." (II Tim. 3:1-2,5-6,8-9)

54. "I solemnly charge you in the presence of God and of Christ Jesus, who is about to judge the living and the dead..." (II Tim. 4:1)

55. "God, after He spoke long ago to the fathers in the prophets in many portions and in many ways, in these last days has spoken to us in His Son." (Heb. 1:1-2)

56. "Are they not all ministering spirits, sent out to render service for the sake of those who are about to inherit salvation?" (Heb. 1:14)

57. "He did not subject to angels the world about to come." (Heb. 2:5)

58. "...and have tasted ...the powers of the age about to come." (Heb. 6:5)

59. "For ground that drinks the rain which often falls upon it and brings forth vegetation useful to those for whose sake it is also tilled, receives a blessing from God; but if it yields thorns and thistles, it is worthless and near a curse, and it's end is for burning." (Heb. 6:7-8)

60. "When He said, 'A new covenant,' He has made the first obsolete. But whatever is becoming obsolete and growing old is ready to disappear." (Heb. 8:13)

61. "The Holy Spirit is signifying this, that the way of the [heavenly] Holy Places has not yet been revealed, while the outer tabernacle is still standing, which is a symbol for the present time. Accordingly both gifts and sacrifices are offered which cannot make the worshiper perfect in conscience, since they relate only to food and drink and various washings, regulations for the body imposed until a time of reformation." (Heb. 9:8-10; Compare Gal. 4:19; Eph. 2:21-22; 3:17; 4:13)

62. "But when Christ appeared as a high priest of the good things about to come..." (Heb. 9:11)

63. "Now once at the consummation of the ages He has been manifested to put away sin." (Heb. 9:26)

64. "For the Law, since it has only a shadow of the good things about to come..." (Heb. 10:1)

65. "...as you see the Day drawing near." (Heb. 10:25)

66. "...the fury of a fire which is about to consume the adversaries." (Heb. 10:27)

67. "For yet in a very little while, He who is coming will come, and will not delay." (Heb. 10:37)

68. "For here we do not have a lasting city, but we are seeking the one that is about to come." (Heb. 13:14)

69. "Speak and so act, as those who are about to be judged by the law of liberty." (Jms. 2:12)

70. "Come now, you rich, weep and howl for your miseries which are coming upon you. ...It is in the last days that you have stored up your treasure!" (Jms. 5:1,3)

71. "Be patient, therefore, brethren, until the coming of the Lord." (Jms. 5:7)

72. "You too be patient; strengthen your hearts, for the coming of the Lord is at hand." (Jms. 5:8)

73. "...salvation ready to be revealed in the last time." (I Peter 1:6)

74. "He ...has appeared in these last times for the sake of you." (I Peter 1:20)

75. "They shall give account to Him who is ready to judge the living and the dead." (I Peter 4:5)

76. "The end of all things is at hand; therefore, be of sound judgment and sober spirit for the purpose of prayer." (I Peter 4:7)

77. "For it is time for judgment to begin with the household of God." (I Peter 4:17)

78. "...as your fellow elder and witness of the sufferings of Christ, and a partaker also of the glory that is about to be revealed." (I Peter 5:1)

79. "We have the prophetic word ...which you do well to pay attention as to a lamp shining in a dark place, until the Day dawns and the morning star arises in your hearts." (II Peter 1:19)

80. "Their judgment from long ago is not idle, and their destruction is not asleep." (II Peter 2:3)

81. "In the last days mockers will come. ...For this they willingly are ignorant of..." (I Peter 3:3,5)

82. "But the day of the Lord will come like a thief, in which the heavens will pass away with a roar and the elements will be destroyed with intense heat, and the earth and its works will be burned up. Since all these things are to be destroyed in this way, what sort of people ought you to be in holy conduct and godliness, looking for and hastening the coming of the day of God." (II Peter 3:10-12)

83. "The darkness is passing away, and the true light is already shining." (I Jn. 2:8)

84. "The world is passing away, and its desires." (I Jn. 2:17)

85. "It is the last hour." (I Jn. 2:18)

86. "Even now many antichrists have arisen; from this we know that it is the last hour." (I Jn. 2:18; Compare Matt. 24:23-34)

87. "This is that of the antichrist, of which you have heard that it is coming, and now it is already in the world." (I Jn. 4:3; Compare II Thess. 2:7)

88. "For certain persons have crept in unnoticed, those who were long beforehand marked out for this condemnation. ...About these also Enoch ...prophesied, saying, 'Behold, the Lord came with many thousands of His holy ones, to execute judgment upon all, and to convict all the ungodly...'" (Jude 1:4,14-15)

89. "But you, beloved, ought to remember the words that were spoken beforehand by the apostles of our Lord Jesus Christ, that they were saying to you, 'In the last time there shall be mockers, following after their own ungodly lusts.' These are the ones who cause divisions..." (Jude 1:17-19)

90. "...to show to His bond-servants, the things which must shortly take place." (Rev. 1:1)

91. "The time is near." (Rev. 1:3)

92. "Nevertheless what you have, hold fast until I come." (Rev. 2:25)

93. "I also will keep you from the hour of testing which is about to come upon the whole world." (Rev. 3:10)

94. "I am coming quickly." (Rev. 3:11)

95. "And she gave birth to a son, a male child, who is about to rule all the nations with a rod of iron." (Rev. 12:5)

96. "And in her [the Great City Babylon] was found the blood of prophets and of saints and of all who have been slain on the earth." (Rev. 18:24; Compare Matt. 23:35-36; Lk. 11:50-51)

97. "...to show to His bond-servants the things which must shortly take place." (Rev. 22:6)

98. "Behold, I am coming quickly." (Rev. 22:7)

99. "Do not seal up the words of the prophecy of this book, for the time is near." (Rev. 22:10; Compare Dan. 8:26)

100. "Behold, I am coming quickly." (Rev. 22:12)

101. "Yes, I am coming quickly." (Rev. 22:20)

 

[RND]

It's only too easy to misapply and misunderstand scripture. For example your first point: 1. "The Kingdom of Heaven is at hand." (Matt. 3:2) refers to John the Baptist's fulfillment of prophecy regarding the 1st advent of the Messiah. The world did not end upon the prediction and ministry of John nor did it when Jesus came. So at best the web site your borrowed these from (which you didn't cite = http://www.biblicalpreteristarchive.com ... ts/101.htm) doesn't take these straight forward facts into account.

So, in our discussion about 'preterism' your first borrowed example falls flat on it's complete misunderstanding of what John was declaring. BTW, this was at least a full 43 years before the destruction of Jerusalem so this doesn't even fit within the time frame that preterist's love to claim.

Now, if you want I can go through all 99 of the other examples you borrowed from but I don't think that would be necessary. In all fairness and honesty as a good Christian you should cite each and everyone of the sources you use and provide. I personally think it is extremely disingenuous to copy/paste material from another web site and not give that web site proper credit. Come to think of it I think that is a violation of the rules of the forum - and if it isn't it should be.

 

[veteran]

All those adverbial expressions still won't conclude that the resurrection and gathering of the saints to Christ has already happenned.

And the context of how 2 Peter 3:10 uses the word "elements" (Greek stoicheion) is pointing to this world age, an orderly arrangement of things. Peter even contrasted that destruction with the destruction of a previous world by a flood. The Lord Jesus put all that in perspective about God's law too..

Matt 5:17-18
17 Think not that I am come to destroy the law, or the prophets: I am not come to destroy, but to fulfil.
18 For verily I say unto you, Till heaven and earth pass, one jot or one tittle shall in no wise pass from the law, till all be fulfilled.
(KJV)

If the destruction by a flood Peter mentioned in 2 Pet.3 was not real, then one could treat that word "elements" to mean something else. But the destruction God brought upon this earth with a flood was real, and that's also the context of 2 Peter 3:10. That's also the context Christ shows when He spoke of heaven and earth passing. There's still prophecies contained within the Books of The Law, and those prophecies have yet to come to pass.

Preterism is a servant doctrine to the "one world government" hosts, which sadly, includes a lot of professing Christians, but they are deceived professing Christians. It's the one-world globalists that are trying to setup their own version of Christ's Kingdom today. Thus the doctrines that Christ's return is past, or even that the resurrection is past, and doctrines that try to spiritualize the literal prophetic Biblical events that are to occur as proof of Christ's Kingdom established on earth, act as works of deception to serve the globalists today who are setting up the last beast kingdom which Christ is going to destroy at His LITERAL return to this earth, as written.

 

[RND]

All those adverbial expressions still won't conclude that the resurrection and gathering of the saints to Christ has already happenned.

And the context of how 2 Peter 3:10 uses the word "elements" (Greek stoicheion) is pointing to this world age, an orderly arrangement of things. Peter even contrasted that destruction with the destruction of a previous world by a flood. The Lord Jesus put all that in perspective about God's law too..

Matt 5:17-18
17 Think not that I am come to destroy the law, or the prophets: I am not come to destroy, but to fulfil.
18 For verily I say unto you, Till heaven and earth pass, one jot or one tittle shall in no wise pass from the law, till all be fulfilled.
(KJV)

If the destruction by a flood Peter mentioned in 2 Pet.3 was not real, then one could treat that word "elements" to mean something else. But the destruction God brought upon this earth with a flood was real, and that's also the context of 2 Peter 3:10. That's also the context Christ shows when He spoke of heaven and earth passing. There's still prophecies contained within the Books of The Law, and those prophecies have yet to come to pass.

Preterism is a servant doctrine to the "one world government" hosts, which sadly, includes a lot of professing Christians, but they are deceived professing Christians. It's the one-world globalists that are trying to setup their own version of Christ's Kingdom today. Thus the doctrines that Christ's return is past, or even that the resurrection is past, and doctrines that try to spiritualize the literal prophetic Biblical events that are to occur as proof of Christ's Kingdom established on earth, act as works of deception to serve the globalists today who are setting up the last beast kingdom which Christ is going to destroy at His LITERAL return to this earth, as written.

Excellent points.

 

[veteran]

I never got a chance to respond to this...

RND asks what am I protesting? I'm not protesting, I'm declaring; there is a difference.

You called yourself a "Protestant" the root word of course is "protest."

So again, what are you protesting to call yourself a "Protestant?"

I'm not a member of the RCC; as a matter of fact, I've got European ancestors that were Huganoughts, part of the earliest Protestant movement against the RCC in France.

The Huguenots were definitely attacked unmercifully by the RCC.

[quote:6e9hcjzq]That was one of the reasons my Protestant Christian ancestors wound up in Great Britain and then America later. The early Protestants thought the RCC was the manifesting of the beast and antichrist in their day, and thus thought the end would come in their days. It didn't happen. They were watching like our Lord Jesus said to do, but not all the signs were there, a lot of the signs were missing. But today, a lot of those missing signs are present, but not with the RCC, but with the one-world order globalist movement, which appears to be a rarely covered topic from the world view of those who concentrate on the RCC as the Revelation beast (because of false Kingdom Theology?).

It seems to me in these last days "worship" becomes the major issue - forced worship at that. How does the modern, secular, nation state of Israel force the world to worship them?

And that concetration appears to be coming from a misleading of teachers within some Churches today keying too much on the old reformer's histories.

Deflecting questions aimed at your comments doesn't change the fact that you should have at least a semblance of an answer for why you believe Israel is the woman of Revelation 17.[/quote:6e9hcjzq]


Did I ever say the nation state of Israel will force the whole world to worship how it worships? Don't recall ever mentioning that kind of idea.

But I have said before, that the Revelation Babylon harlot is about a certain 'city' on earth, like the last verse of Rev.17 says. And that it is pointing to fallen Jerusalem in the hands of Christ's enemies. I'm curious to know why some here seem so touchy about that statement, especially since Jerusalem has been sieged and taken by God's enemies many times throughout history. And with the historical Babylon captivity of Jerusalem by Nebuchadnezzar, God Himself brought that one because of how His people had rebelled against Him. In light of that historical and Biblical fact, it makes me wonder even more at why some here get upset with me pointing to fallen Jerusalem as the Revelation harlot city.

The main revelation those appear to be missing, is that the Revelation 11 events have yet to happen, afterall, at the 15th verse forward all the kingdoms of this world become the kingdoms of our Lord and of His Christ, the time of reward for Christ's servants, and the time of the dead to be judged, as written. That means all Christ's enemies in this world subdued, literally. The world is not at that point yet it should be obvious.

So Israel is not the Revelation harlot, it's a certain city like the Scripture says.

But can the state of Israel which represents the "house of Judah" become like a spiritual harlot when bowing to worship a false messiah that comes there, thinking he is God? Well, what did God call both houses of Israel for falling away in false worship to another...

Ezek 23:2-4
2 Son of man, there were two women, the daughters of one mother:
3 And they committed whoredoms in Egypt; they committed whoredoms in their youth: there were their breasts pressed, and there they bruised the teats of their virginity.
4 And the names of them were Aholah the elder, and Aholibah her sister: and they were Mine, and they bare sons and daughters. Thus were their names; Samaria is Aholah, and Jerusalem Aholibah.
5 And Aholah played the harlot when she was Mine; and she doted on her lovers, on the Assyrians her neighbours,
(KJV)

Samaria was the capital city of the northern kingdom of Israel after God split Israel into two separate nations (1 Kings 11 forward). Samaria is put for the ten tribes of the northern kingdom, called the "house of Israel". It fell to pagan worship of golden calves before God took them away and scattered them through the nations, like He foretold Israel He would do in Deut.4 if they ever fell away from Him. And Jerusalem there is put for the capital city of the southern kingdom made up of the "house of Judah". They later fell away also, and God brought the king of Babylon upon Jerusalem in Jeremiah's days. God called both cities harlots because of falling away from Him into false worship.

Does it hurt some here to be reminded of this? If so, why?

What would starting up the Levitical priesthood ways and animal sacrifices per the old covenant with a rebuilt temple in Jerusalem mean for Christ today? What would it mean with a false messiah arriving on the scene there causing false worship to him in place of The Father and The Son? Jerusalem would indeed become a harlot city, again, like Old Testament history when it fell away from God. That's the fallen state Revelation 17 is pointing to with Jerusalem, and that event is still in process of being fulfilled today.
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