Christian Forums

This is a sample guest message. Register a free account today to become a member! Once signed in, you'll be able to participate on this site by adding your own topics and posts, as well as connect with other members through your own private inbox!

Hypocritical?

SputnikBoy said:
My take on this issue has little or nothing to do with the law as such, PDoug. It's more to do with those professed Christians who sit in their pews on Sunday or Saturday morning listening to the Word of God while in the evening choose to involve themselves in things that are in complete opposition to the Word of God. In other words, they 'turn off God' merely to be entertained. Many of us do this and it isn't right. It also casts a bad image of our Christianity for others.

So, what does one's actually choosing to be - or not be - entertained with ungodly material have to do with the texts that you presented above, PDoug? Are you actually implying that if I find a movie/DVD, etc. offensive and in contradiction to my beliefs as a Christian and choose not to watch it that I lose my salvation? Strange logic but rather typical of today's Christian. And besides, you have your interpretation of these texts backwards.
What I'm saying is do not do try to do good works directly for the sake of salvation. Have faith correctly (Mark 11:22-24) and do good works because you are inclined to do so. Besides, trying to do good works directly is a waste of time: because it is impossible to do so anyway (Romans 7:18-23).

The issue you should have with someone, is whether or not that person has faith correctly. That is the point of James 2:17. If someone has faith correctly, then that person will automatically do good works.
 
Windozer said:
If you do not have faith that God will take care of you, of what value is your faith? Do you need scripture backing to believe that?

Faith is not only about being taken care of.

The righteous will live by faith in who?

More accurately, "his faith", if we go read Habbakuk. Not only by "faith in" but by the faith of the Messiah (Romans 3:22; Galatians 2:16; Galatians 2:20; Galatians 3:22; Ephesians 3:12; Philippians 3:9; James 2:1; Revelation 14:12).

Faith of, not merely faith in. And his faithfulness was in the Father and his Word (which is true, John 17:17, and he embodies that through his perfection).
 
PDoug said:
Besides, trying to do good works directly is a waste of time: because it is impossible to do so anyway (Romans 7:18-23).

I know we've spoken enough, but I have a question for you.

You say doing good works is impossible. What do you mean when you say this? Does this mean some one, say, a satanist cannot do anything good? They are incapable of say, helping some one in need?

I don't think you have used Romans 7 in it's proper context...
 
wavy said:
To follow him is not an abstract concept like "thinking" about how good he was or anything like that. To follow him is to walk as he walked (1 John 2:6). And he had faith and complete trust in the Father. Even to the end of a horrible death. He taught directly out of the Word.

Read his request in John 17:17. :)
I don't get it. Why do you insist on continually ignoring portions of the messages that I write? Where did I ever say or suggest that having faith was following Christ, or 'an abstract concept like "thinking" about how good he was or anything like that'? The following is what I wrote here:

PDoug said:
Windozer,

Remember, having faith is not merely believing in God: having faith is the practice of: saying what you want and believing that it will happen, or asking God for things and believing you will receive it (Mark 11:22-24). There is no scriptural foundation for the notion that having faith is merely, directly believing in God. Mark 11:22-24 on the other is a scripture in which Christ instructs us on how we should have faith. (Please read here, here, here, and here for more on the subject.) It is my testimony, that when you have faith consistent with Mark 11:22-24, you will see the natural production of good works in you that I keep talking about.
 
PDoug said:
I don't get it. Why do you insist on continually ignoring portions of the messages that I write? Where did I ever say or suggest that having faith was following Christ, or 'an abstract concept like "thinking" about how good he was or anything like that'?

Am I late? Have I missed something? Because unless you and Windozer are the same person...
 
Windozer said:
PDoug said:
There is no scriptural foundation for the notion that having faith is merely, directly believing in God.

PDoug...When you sit in a chair you have faith that the chair will hold you. It is the same when you have faith in God. If you do not have faith that God will take care of you, of what value is your faith? Do you need scripture backing to believe that?

If you do then perhaps Romans 1:17 NIV. will do it.
For in the gospel a righteousness from God is revealed, a righteousness that is by faith from first to last, [ Or is from faith to faith] just as it is written: "The righteous will live by faith." [ Hab. 2:4]

The righteous will live by faith in who?

Romans 3:22 NIV.
[quote:d3198]This righteousness from God comes through faith in Jesus Christ to all who believe. There is no difference,

Jesus Christ...That is who.[/quote:d3198]
How can you place manmade instructions on how to have faith over the ones given by Christ in Mark 11:22-24? Does what man think faith is, trumps what God declares faith to be?
 
wavy said:
PDoug said:
I don't get it. Why do you insist on continually ignoring portions of the messages that I write? Where did I ever say or suggest that having faith was following Christ, or 'an abstract concept like "thinking" about how good he was or anything like that'?

Am I late? Have I missed something? Because unless you and Windozer are the same person...
Oops! :)
 
wavy said:
Windozer said:
PDoug said:
You have to follow all the scriptures

No I don't....The only one I need to follow is Jesus.

Who followed the scriptures. :-D

Ya....Right.... Wavy.... ROFL....Is this supposed to be some kind of joke?

John 8 NIV. verse 3 + 4
The teachers of the law and the Pharisees brought in a woman caught in adultery. They made her stand before the group and said to Jesus, "Teacher, this woman was caught in the act of adultery.
Scripture said in verse 5
In the Law Moses commanded us to stone such women. Now what do you say?"
Jesus said. in verse 7
"If any one of you is without sin, let him be the first to throw a stone at her."
 
wavy said:
PDoug said:
Besides, trying to do good works directly is a waste of time: because it is impossible to do so anyway (Romans 7:18-23).

I know we've spoken enough, but I have a question for you.

You say doing good works is impossible. What do you mean when you say this? Does this mean some one, say, a satanist cannot do anything good? They are incapable of say, helping some one in need?

I don't think you have used Romans 7 in it's proper context...
I mean that it is impossible to act consistently good. Circumstances will arise repeatedly in which you see your own righteousness (i.e. your own direct efforts to act good) crumble. But you will also see a strange / alien goodness in you, that acts righteously in all circumstances. The first set of (unreliable) righteous behavior happens under the strength of the sinful nature. The second set of (reliable) righteous behavior is due to the controlling effect of the Spirit (Romans 8:9). That is what Romans 7:18-25 means. (But again, the second set of righteous behavior only occurs when someone has faith consistent with Christ's instructions in Mark 11:22-24).
 
Windozer said:
Ya....Right.... Wavy.... ROFL....Is this supposed to be some kind of joke?

John 8 NIV. verse 3 + 4
The teachers of the law and the Pharisees brought in a woman caught in adultery. They made her stand before the group and said to Jesus, "Teacher, this woman was caught in the act of adultery.
Scripture said in verse 5
[quote:a5695] In the Law Moses commanded us to stone such women. Now what do you say?"
Jesus said. in verse 7
"If any one of you is without sin, let him be the first to throw a stone at her."
[/quote:a5695]

So you're saying he didn't follow the scriptures...and laughing about it because I say he did?

Anyway, I know what you are getting at anyway. Not the first time (or the second or third, fourth, fifth, sixth etc) I've encountered this thinking.

Please read when Vic brought this up:


Vic said:
Jesus neither suggested stoning nor putting away in this case. Why?

wavy said:
A fair question. I think you must know the Torah to know the answer. There's two ways, imo, as to why this incident went wrong.

They brought the woman without the man (that was one error that had been made). The Torah indicates that both the man and the woman caught in adultery were to be put to death (Leviticus 20:10). They, however, favored the woman to use to try to accuse the Messiah. They hadn't even gone through with the right procedures. They had only set this up to accuse the Messiah as John 8:6 says. They weren't judging righteous judgment (a Torah requirment, of course, found in many passages).

There is an interesting explanation as to what Messiah was writing on the ground in this passage. It could be very possible that he was writing down the Torah commandments that accused them of doing wrong.

The other one is that (and I'm sure you heard of this one perhaps) that what he was writing was Jeremiah 17:13, where those who forsake the living waters were prophesied to be "written in the earth".

He had been in the Temple the day before, declaring himself as those living waters in the previous chapter (John 7:37-38). So when he came to the Temple again the next day, he could have written down Isaiah 12:3 and Jeremiah 17:13. When those who heard his words ("he that is without sin, let him cast...") after he wrote in the ground , they somehow became convicted in themselves (John 8:9) and walked out. Possibly realizing that before their eyes that prophesy was coming to pass. They had forsaken the living waters.

Either way, the people were at fault, and Messiah upheld the Torah. He asked the woman where her accusers were (her witnesses, since out of the mouth of two-three witnesses is some one put to death - Deuteronomy 17:6), and if no man had condemned/judged her. After they had left, she had no witnesses against her. Messiah didn't catch her himself in the act and even if he had, he was only one witness (and you need at least two). So he said, "Neither do I condemn you. Go and sin no more". True Torah knowledge and judgment.

If anyone upheld the Torah here, it was indeed the Messiah. Any prophet trying to turn away the people from any of the Torah commandments is supposed to be rightfully condemned (Deuteronomy 13:1-5). Messiah never broke Torah however. He was without sin and without fault before Yahweh's Word. He was put to death wrongfully. Had he been "changing the law" or ignoring it or deliberately breaking it, he would have rightly been put to death. I know that he was sinless, however, and considered all the Word authorative and not an old, bondage document. :)
 
Anyway, professed Christian + acceptance in one's life of ungodly literature and entertainment fare = hypocrite. This is not finger-pointing toward any particular person since my own standards have become compromized over the years. We perhaps need to become more aware of the following, however:

Put a frog in cold water, he'll swim around happily.
Put a frog in scalding water, he'll jump out immediately.
Put him in cold water gradually increasing the temperature and he'll die.

Many of us today - perhaps most of us - have become conditioned into accepting things that we should not. Christians in particular have a responsibility to not come across to nonChristians as hypocrites. What we are seen to accept or not accept via the entertainment industry IS an important reflection of our Christianity! We really should not require misquoted scriptural texts to give us the nod to participate in ungodly things. This is a 'choice' issue, not a "I am led by the Holy Spirit and therefore am a programmed robot" issue.
 
PDoug said:
I mean that it is impossible to act consistently good.

Define "consistently". What's the scale for it to become generally consistent? Because there are sincere people out there who are just as kind as they could possibly be. No more or less a sinner as you or I...yet they do not believe in the bible...
 
wavy said:
PDoug said:
I mean that it is impossible to act consistently good.

Define "consistently". What's the scale for it to become generally consistent? Because there are sincere people out there who are just as kind as they could possibly be. No more or less a sinner as you or I...yet they do not believe in the bible...

Good point, wavy. I've said this for a long time. In fact, the only obvious thing that seems to be missing from the lives of these 'nonChristians' are the first four commandments.
 
But remember, they don't need the first four commandments.

He who loves his neighbor has "fulfilled the law". Remember? If there is any other commandment, it is "briefly comprehended in this saying: thou shalt love thy neighbor as thyself".

:-D :-D :-D :-D :-D :-D :-D :-D :-D :-D
 
PDoug said:
Windozer said:
PDoug said:
There is no scriptural foundation for the notion that having faith is merely, directly believing in God.

PDoug...When you sit in a chair you have faith that the chair will hold you. It is the same when you have faith in God. If you do not have faith that God will take care of you, of what value is your faith? Do you need scripture backing to believe that?

If you do then perhaps Romans 1:17 NIV. will do it.
For in the gospel a righteousness from God is revealed, a righteousness that is by faith from first to last, [ Or is from faith to faith] just as it is written: "The righteous will live by faith." [ Hab. 2:4]

The righteous will live by faith in who?

Romans 3:22 NIV.
[quote:66828]This righteousness from God comes through faith in Jesus Christ to all who believe. There is no difference,

Jesus Christ...That is who.
How can you place manmade instructions on how to have faith over the ones given by Christ in Mark 11:22-24? Does what man think faith is, trumps what God declares faith to be?[/quote:66828]

If you are not happy with what I have presented in scripture please take that up with God.

Put yourself in the place of God for a moment? How would you view a relationship with your children? With all of them asking you for things because they believe you will supply anything they ask if they only believe. Would you model that same picture for your children?

Would you not supply what you thought would be best for them? Do you really expect God to be any different?

I believe God will supply anything we ask of him as long as it is line with what he thinks is best for us, with the requirement being that we believe he will provide it.

As far as any man made instructions is concerned, that is something I really do not wish to have any expertise in. So I will not go there.
 
wavy said:
But remember, they don't need the first four commandments.

He who loves his neighbor has "fulfilled the law". Remember? If there is any other commandment, it is "briefly comprehended in this saying: thou shalt love thy neighbor as thyself".

:-D :-D :-D :-D :-D :-D :-D :-D :-D :-D

You're right of course. I stand corrected. :lol!:
 
Wavy said:
So you're saying he didn't follow the scriptures...and laughing about it because I say he did?

No Wavy I am not saying he didn't follow the scriptures.

Scripture says that.

I am laughing because you expected me to believe that he followed scripture. And that is not the only place (in scripture) where that kind of thing occurred. It was the first that came to mind.

As for the rest of your post I will not go there, that would only be letting you off the hook which I don't intend to do.
 
wavy said:
PDoug said:
I mean that it is impossible to act consistently good.

Define "consistently". What's the scale for it to become generally consistent? Because there are sincere people out there who are just as kind as they could possibly be. No more or less a sinner as you or I...yet they do not believe in the bible...
Is everyone that you are close to perfect? While there are a number of people who appear good at a distance, when you get to know them by spending time with them, you invariably see that much of their goodness is just a show. When you look beneath their surface behavior, you see lots of warts. That is what the following scriptures mean:

Matthew 23

25 "Woe to you, teachers of the law and Pharisees, you hypocrites! You clean the outside of the cup and dish, but inside they are full of greed and self-indulgence.
26 Blind Pharisee! First clean the inside of the cup and dish, and then the outside also will be clean.
27 "Woe to you, teachers of the law and Pharisees, you hypocrites! You are like whitewashed tombs, which look beautiful on the outside but on the inside are full of dead men's bones and everything unclean.
28 In the same way, on the outside you appear to people as righteous but on the inside you are full of hypocrisy and wickedness.

John 8

34 Jesus replied, "I tell you the truth, everyone who sins is a slave to sin.

Romans 3

23 for all have sinned and fall short of the glory of God


Therefore it is my testimony, that my observations of people are consistent with the above, and other scriptures.
 
PDoug said:
Is everyone that you are close to perfect? While there are a number of people who appear good at a distance, when you get to know them by spending time with them, you invariably see that much of their goodness is just a show. When you look beneath their surface behavior, you see lots of warts. That is what the following scriptures mean:

Therefore it is my testimony, that my observations of people are consistent with the above, and other scriptures.

Yes, I believe people are like that. But not all of them. Are you saying all people are as you described above as you spend time with them?
 
Back
Top