Hypothetical Man on the Island.....

[Georges]

Is this man saved?

2006......

A small group of people live on a remote island in the middle of the Pacific ocean. One day a box washes up on shore...in it is a single book. The title of the book is "Tanakh". It is the Old Testament as we know it.....The man opens it and reads it (miraculously it is in his language). The man decides he likes what is written inside and wants to use it as the way to live a good life. He teaches the contents of the book to the rest of the people on the island and they all agree to abide by the books rules as much as possible according to their circumstances....

Are these people saved?


There is no mention of Jesus in the OT as the savior...these people therefore have no idea of a Savior named Jesus....

Are they saved by accepting and obeying God's word?

 

[Rob]

John 14:6 is why I voted the way I voted ;)

 

[ChristineES]

I never did go with the popular answers, I have never been Miss Popularity (or in my case now, Mrs). I don't think that people who have never heard Jesus Gospel are "going to hell". I have heard all the arguments, and I just don't agree. I also can't imagine tiny babies or mentally handicapped folks being eternally punished either. I don't expect many will agree with me, there are others who may even think I am a Universal Resurrectionist (which I am not). But I am not afraid to state my opinion on this.

 

[JM]

If it means “what doctrines must one believe to be saved?†the answer is, None. I hold the Reformed view that children in infancy, even before birth, can be regenerated and saved, presumably before they have any conscious doctrinal beliefs. Of course, regenerate people, as they mature, naturally respond positively to the truths of the Scriptures, because of the Spirit’s work in them. Refusal to embrace these doctrines is evidence that the person is not regenerate.

If it means “what doctrines are essential to a Christian profession?†or “what beliefs should be required of adults who wish to join a church?†I would keep it fairly simple. To join a church, a person should be able to make a credible profession of Christ: “I am a sinner; Jesus, the Son of God, died on the cross as a sacrifice to absolve me of sin. I hope only in his grace, not in my own works.†And there should be no evident contradiction between his profession and his life.

If it means, “what doctrines must be held by official teachers of the church?†the question is more complicated. I think a teacher of the church should be able to instruct others in sound doctrine and to refute heresy. To do this, he must be abreast of the church’s growing understanding of the Scriptures. So in 200 AD, I think it would not have been right to expect teachers to hold a doctrine of justification like Luther’s, but in 1600 I think that should have been a requirement. Today, I think that teachers in the church should affirm the Nicene Creed, the Chalcedon Declaration, the “doctrines of grace,†the doctrine of justification by faith alone apart from works, the five “solas,†and biblical inerrancy. They should also be free from heresies like liberalism, universalism, extreme feminism, open theism, etc. Of course, doctrinal orthodoxy is only one of the biblical requirements for church leaders. They must also lead exemplary lives. An Interview with John Frame By Marco Gonzalez

 

[Georges]

The question and intent of the OP is....

Is this man saved because of his intent to keep the Torah...without knowledge of Jesus, without the learned "how to" look for him as taught by tradition?

 

[JM]

...the Jews that followed Moses were never guaranteed salvation unto eternal life through Moses, only an escape from the enslavement of Pharaoh.

God's real chosen people...[are]granted escape from the bondage of sin and death and are thus guaranteed eternal life.

These are the ones (Jews and Gentiles alike) who are granted to believe in Jesus Christ (John 1:12; Acts 13:48).

 

[Georges]

...the Jews that followed Moses were never guaranteed salvation unto eternal life through Moses, only an escape from the enslavement of Pharaoh.

God's real chosen people...[are]granted escape from the bondage of sin and death and are thus guaranteed eternal life.

These are the ones (Jews and Gentiles alike) who are granted to believe in Jesus Christ (John 1:12; Acts 13:48).

Nah......The Jewish belief is that you were gauranteed a part in the Olam Haba if you were Torahally (new word?) righteous...It was the Jewish belief also that even proselyte Gentiles were allowed a portion in the Messianic Kingdom.

The question remains....the man on the Island...if he keeps the Torah as pertains to him (if he accepts it), is he saved?

and...what Gaurantee did Moses, Joshua, David, or Joe Blowstien have in the OT? Obviously David and Soloman didn't keep Torah.... Are you saying there is a chance we might not see them?

Did I miss understand your post?

 

[unred typo]

I copped a ‘donno’ answer… mainly because it would be impossible to judge what was in their hearts and if they obeyed or just promised to obey, never really submitting to the law written in their hearts, and now confirmed by the washed up book, no pun intended, George. :wink:

It seems to me that because Jesus died for the sin of the whole world, he will be the ultimate judge of who is saved or lost by the secrets of their hearts. He has paid the price sufficient to save every man so the decision of who will be saved rests with him, whom God the Father gave the right to forgive sins at his discretion. Matthew 9:6

Romans 2:14 For when the Gentiles, which have not the law, do by nature the things contained in the law, these, having not the law, are a law unto themselves:
15Which shew the work of the law written in their hearts, their conscience also bearing witness, and their thoughts the mean while accusing or else excusing one another;)
16In the day when God shall judge the secrets of men by Jesus Christ according to my gospel.

 

[Gabbylittleangel]

There is no mention of Jesus in the OT as the savior...these people therefore have no idea of a Savior named Jesus....

Hmmm. There is no mention of Jesus in your story either. The God of all creation knows this man. He knows his name. He knows what is in his heart. Any chance at all that the man in your story is named Cornelius?

Act 10:1-4 There was a certain man in Caesarea called Cornelius, a centurion of the band called the Italian [band], [A] devout [man], and one that feared God with all his house, which gave much alms to the people, and prayed to God alway. He saw in a vision evidently about the ninth hour of the day an angel of God coming in to him, and saying unto him, Cornelius. And when he looked on him, he was afraid, and said, What is it, Lord? And he said unto him, Thy prayers and thine alms are come up for a memorial before God.

My God is not willing that any should perish, but that all should come to repentance.

Act 8:26-38 ¶ And the angel of the Lord spake unto Philip, saying, Arise, and go toward the south unto the way that goeth down from Jerusalem unto Gaza, which is desert. And he arose and went: and, behold, a man of Ethiopia, an eunuch of great authority under Candace queen of the Ethiopians, who had the charge of all her treasure, and had come to Jerusalem for to worship, Was returning, and sitting in his chariot read Esaias the prophet. Then the Spirit said unto Philip, Go near, and join thyself to this chariot. And Philip ran thither to [him], and heard him read the prophet Esaias, and said, Understandest thou what thou readest? And he said, How can I, except some man should guide me? And he desired Philip that he would come up and sit with him....
... And as they went on [their] way, they came unto a certain water: and the eunuch said, See, [here is] water; what doth hinder me to be baptized? And Philip said, If thou believest with all thine heart, thou mayest. And he answered and said, I believe that Jesus Christ is the Son of God. And he commanded the chariot to stand still: and they went down both into the water, both Philip and the eunuch; and he baptized him.

It matters nothing to God if you are in a desert in Gaza, a person that the Apostle leadership is prejudiced against, or on a remote island in the middle of the Pacific ocean.

Are these people saved??

If God sees that they are ready to be saved, God will send a Peter or a Philip or a Georges to them to tell them what they must do to be saved.

 

[Georges]

There is no mention of Jesus in the OT as the savior...these people therefore have no idea of a Savior named Jesus....

Hmmm. There is no mention of Jesus in your story either. The God of all creation knows this man. He knows his name. He knows what is in his heart. Any chance at all that the man in your story is named Cornelius?

Nope....I'll call him.....Solo (no relation )....Ono Solo.....Gabby, you are right...there is no mention (on purpose) of Jesus in the story.....All Ono Solo has is the OT....that's it....it is in his language so he understands the words on the page.

Act 10:1-4 There was a certain man in Caesarea called Cornelius, a centurion of the band called the Italian [band], [A] devout [man], and one that feared God with all his house, which gave much alms to the people, and prayed to God alway. He saw in a vision evidently about the ninth hour of the day an angel of God coming in to him, and saying unto him, Cornelius. And when he looked on him, he was afraid, and said, What is it, Lord? And he said unto him, Thy prayers and thine alms are come up for a memorial before God.

My God is not willing that any should perish, but that all should come to repentance.

Act 8:26-38 ¶ And the angel of the Lord spake unto Philip, saying, Arise, and go toward the south unto the way that goeth down from Jerusalem unto Gaza, which is desert. And he arose and went: and, behold, a man of Ethiopia, an eunuch of great authority under Candace queen of the Ethiopians, who had the charge of all her treasure, and had come to Jerusalem for to worship, Was returning, and sitting in his chariot read Esaias the prophet. Then the Spirit said unto Philip, Go near, and join thyself to this chariot. And Philip ran thither to [him], and heard him read the prophet Esaias, and said, Understandest thou what thou readest? And he said, How can I, except some man should guide me? And he desired Philip that he would come up and sit with him....
... And as they went on [their] way, they came unto a certain water: and the eunuch said, See, [here is] water; what doth hinder me to be baptized? And Philip said, If thou believest with all thine heart, thou mayest. And he answered and said, I believe that Jesus Christ is the Son of God. And he commanded the chariot to stand still: and they went down both into the water, both Philip and the eunuch; and he baptized him.

In the story (this thread), you can't use the NT....to prove a point...All he has is the OT....can he be saved by accepting it and trying to live by it?


It matters nothing to God if you are in a desert in Gaza, a person that the Apostle leadership is prejudiced against, or on a remote island in the middle of the Pacific ocean.

There are no Apostles as far as Ono Solo is concerned...He has never heard of the name Jesus, or isn't aware of the concept of a messiah...All he has is a "book" with a bunch of rules to live by and stories about a group of people...If he tries to live by the rules put forth (so he can identify with the People of this God), will God consider him worthy to enter into the future Messianic Kingdom.

Are these people saved??

If God sees that they are ready to be saved, God will send a Peter or a Philip or a Georges to them to tell them what they must do to be saved.

Hey,,,,I like that...so if they die before I get there, but they obeyed Torah as best as they could....are they saved (will they enter the Messianic Kingdom) or not...?

Hi Gabby...me in red...

 

[Vic C.]

Hey,,,,I like that...so if they die before I get there, but they obeyed Torah as best as they could....are they saved (will they enter the Messianic Kingdom) or not...?

unred typo nailed it with the Romans passage.

 

[Georges]

I copped a ‘donno’ answer… mainly because it would be impossible to judge what was in their hearts and if they obeyed or just promised to obey, never really submitting to the law written in their hearts, and now confirmed by the washed up book, no pun intended, George. :wink:

Ok..as creator of the story....I will say they followed Torah as best they could...understanding that all God requires is a contreit and repentent heart for the forgiveness of sins....Based on Psa 32:5, a verse everyone should have memorized because it is the essence of forgiveness..

Psa 32:5 I acknowledged my sin unto thee, and mine iniquity have I not hid. I said, I will confess my transgressions unto the LORD; and thou forgavest the iniquity of my sin. Selah.

Notice..."I will confess my transgressions"....which means "sins against the Torah". And, God forgives the sin upon confession...no sacrifice is even needed....

It seems to me that because Jesus died for the sin of the whole world, he will be the ultimate judge of who is saved or lost by the secrets of their hearts.

There is no Jesus.....on this island. Based on Ps 32:5, if they keep Torah as best they can....are they saved to enter the Messianic Kingdom?

He has paid the price sufficient to save every man so the decision of who will be saved rests with him, whom God the Father gave the right to forgive sins at his discretion. Matthew 9:6

Can't use this....there is no NT.....on the Island....They only have the OT..

Romans 2:14 For when the Gentiles, which have not the law, do by nature the things contained in the law, these, having not the law, are a law unto themselves:
15Which shew the work of the law written in their hearts, their conscience also bearing witness, and their thoughts the mean while accusing or else excusing one another;)
16In the day when God shall judge the secrets of men by Jesus Christ according to my gospel.

There is no Paul on the island....no NT....you say Paul and Ono Solo goes "Wha"? All he knows is Adam, Moses, David, Isaiah and the rest of the boys...

Unred.....Psa 32:5, are they saved if they confess their sins against God and his Torah?

There is no Jesus, Paul or NT on the Island.....

 

[Vic C.]

There is no Paul on the island....no NT....you say Paul and Ono Solo goes "Wha"? All he knows is Adam, Moses, David, Isaiah and the rest of the boys...

George, you missed the point Paul was making. You don't need to tell Ono Paul said it, because he didn't. They are God's words. God will judge them based on what they did with the words given them in the Book, whether or not Paul EVER wrote what he wrote.

 

[Georges]

Hey,,,,I like that...so if they die before I get there, but they obeyed Torah as best as they could....are they saved (will they enter the Messianic Kingdom) or not...?

unred typo nailed it with the Romans passage.

Not so fast Monsieur Le Vic.........No, NT.....Will God convict based on the Psalm I quoted?

Besides and I hate doing this....cause I don't want to argue NT opening a can of worms..the Romans passages I believe are written concerning Gentiles who are aware of Christ....perhaps even proselytes or God fearers (like Cornelius) who are aware of Christ...last I said on that....

I do promise to add a NT element to my story in a little bit...so I don't really want to go any more into that yet...

 

[Vic C.]

Read up George. You posted too quickly. :wink:

 

[Georges]

Vic....are they saved by observing Torah as best they can, and confessing their sins as put forth in Psalms?

 

[Vic C.]

Vic....are they saved by observing Torah as best they can, and confessing their sins as put forth in Psalms?

You can't use Psalms either. It is not part of the Torah. ;-)

The answer to your question is not as easy as you'd like it to be. Man cannot achieve salvation by the outward doing of things. That was made clear in Genesis:

Gen 3:7 And the eyes of them both were opened, and they knew that they were naked; and they sewed fig leaves together, and made themselves aprons.
Gen 3:8 And they heard the voice of the LORD God walking in the garden in the cool of the day: and Adam and his wife hid themselves from the presence of the LORD God amongst the trees of the garden.
Gen 3:9 And the LORD God called unto Adam, and said unto him, Where art thou?
Gen 3:10 And he said, I heard thy voice in the garden, and I was afraid, because I was naked; and I hid myself.
Gen 3:11 And he said, Who told thee that thou wast naked? Hast thou eaten of the tree, whereof I commanded thee that thou shouldest not eat?

They tried to cover thier sin by covering themselves with fig leaves. This was unacceptable to God, so HE took matters into HIS own "Hands":

Gen 3:21 Unto Adam also and to his wife did the LORD God make coats of skins, and clothed them.

HE killed innocent animals so that HE could cover them with the skins. Only by the shedding of innocent blood was HE able to cover them. :wink:

The people on your island still need to be judged to see if they will be allowed to eat from the Tree of Life.

 

[unred typo]

OK, even though Vic did an excellent job of taking the words right out of my keyboard, I’ll go ahead and restate it.

Georges wrote: Ok..as creator of the story....I will say they followed Torah as best they could...understanding that all God requires is a contreit and repentent heart for the forgiveness of sins....Based on Psa 32:5, a verse everyone should have memorized because it is the essence of forgiveness..
Psa 32:5 I acknowledged my sin unto thee, and mine iniquity have I not hid. I said, I will confess my transgressions unto the LORD; and thou forgavest the iniquity of my sin. Selah.
Notice..."I will confess my transgressions"....which means "sins against the Torah". And, God forgives the sin upon confession...no sacrifice is even needed....

Based on your qualification then, I would say ‘yes, they are saved’ according to all I’ve read in scripture. I’m balking on “no sacrifice is even needed†though. Even in the OT, before the OT even, God planned to reverse the curse with the sacrifice of his Son, so all forgiveness was granted on the layaway plan with faith being accounted for righteousness. Now if your man was washed up after Christ had died, their sins are covered because they are obeying the commands written on their hearts, and those commands are confirmed by the Torah. They are living up to the light they have and that is all God requires. God himself has paid the price required so they can be saved. A perfect life was required. If righteousness came by the law alone, what did Jesus die for?


Georges wrote: There is no Jesus.....on this island. Based on Ps 32:5, if they keep Torah as best they can....are they saved to enter the Messianic Kingdom?

But that is my point. Whether they know there is a Jesus or not, there IS a Jesus who died for their sins. He will determine if they will be born again by the Spirit. If they are living up to the light they have, following the commands written on their hearts and the leading of the Holy Spirit in their lives, God dwells in their hearts by faith in his word.

The reason they would need to hear the gospel is for their own peace of mind, to confirm what the gospel says about Jesus being raised from the dead and they can have the joy of knowing that this has been done for him, and will be done for them. When they follow the laws written in their hearts, they are in reality, following the commands of Christ, they are, in reality, obeying the gospel, and they have in reality, accepted his word in their heart by accepting what the Holy Spirit has led them to do.



Georges wrote: There is no Paul on the island....no NT....you say Paul and Ono Solo goes "Wha"? All he knows is Adam, Moses, David, Isaiah and the rest of the boys…

The verse was a reference that tells why I believe they are saved if they followed the commands on their hearts, George. I know Paul wasn’t in your hypothetical Torah book washed up on the beach. By Torah, do you mean the ten commandments or the other hundred or so, with commands for the temple building, sacrifices, rites, feasts, holy days, cleansings and ordinances? Do you have a list? Just curious.

 

[Vic C.]

Torah is commonly known as the first five books, but it can also refer to the entire OT. George didn't speciify; I assumed he meant the first five. Plus, there are over 600 points or Laws they were to observe.

 

[unred typo]

Torah is commonly known as the first five books, but it can also refer to the entire OT. George didn't speciify; I assumed he meant the first five. Plus, there are over 600 points or Laws they were to observe.

Thanks, Vic. I didn’t have the number but I’m not surprised by 600, and that wouldn’t have covered every situation back then, let alone today. No wonder God reduced it to ‘love one another as I have loved you’ and Jesus died as our example.