You guys have got Mormans and JW's on the brain. There are about 8 to 10 denominations that do not believe in Trinitarianism. P.S. The word "Godhead" was added to scriptures, it was not in the original text.
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mdo757 said:
psst... we hadn't gotten into the Trinity yet. shhhhh. we're workin' on the easy stuff first.
I know how you feel about the Trinity, mdo. This is something like an enlightenment for me since I joined. Living in my little bubble my whole life, I guess. I thought all Christians were Trinitarians. So in this respect, I've come to re-evaluate that.
But we weren't talking about the Trinity. We had a very engaging discussion with the always polite Mohrb - who has been awol for the past several days. (Mohrb
?) He was persistent yet always polite. Jesus as God - never created, has been the crux of the matter until now. Are we allowed to hold our ground on His divinity?
I myself grew up in the Baptist church, being taught Trinitarianism and believed it with all of my heart for about 30 years. Just like everyone else I had believed it to be a revelation from the Holy Spirit. And that is why it is so hard for Christians to believe otherwise. Truth is made known by the reason of the facts.mjjcb said:psst... we hadn't gotten into the Trinity yet. shhhhh. we're workin' on the easy stuff first.
I know how you feel about the Trinity, mdo. This is something like an enlightenment for me since I joined. Living in my little bubble my whole life, I guess. I thought all Christians were Trinitarians. So in this respect, I've come to re-evaluate that.
But we weren't talking about the Trinity. We had a very engaging discussion with the always polite Mohrb - who has been awol for the past several days. (Mohrb
The following is from
http://www.everystudent.com/wires/whodoyousay.html
Is Jesus God? How he implied he was God:
"Your father Abraham rejoiced as he looked forward to my coming. He saw it and was glad." The people said, "You aren't even fifty years old. How can you say you have seen Abraham?" Jesus answered, "I tell you the truth, before Abraham was even born, I Am!" At that point they picked up stones to throw at him. But Jesus was hidden from them and left the Temple.
"The Father and I are one." Once again the people picked up stones to kill him. Jesus said, "At my Father's direction I have done many good works. For which one are you going to stone me?" They replied, "We're stoning you not for any good work, but for blasphemy! You, a mere man, claim to be God."
Jesus shouted to the crowds, "If you trust me, you are trusting not only me, but also God who sent me. For when you see me, you are seeing the one who sent me. I have come as a light to shine in this dark world, so that all who put their trust in me will no longer remain in the dark."
After washing their feet, he put on his robe again and sat down and asked, "Do you understand what I was doing? You call me 'Teacher' and 'Lord,' and you are right, because that's what I am. And since I, your Lord and Teacher, have washed your feet, you ought to wash each other's feet."
Jesus told him, "I am the way, the truth, and the life. No one can come to the Father except through me. If you had really known me, you would know who my Father is. From now on, you do know him and have seen him!" Philip said, "Lord, show us the Father, and we will be satisfied." Jesus replied, "Have I been with you all this time, Philip, and yet you still don't know who I am? Anyone who has seen me has seen the Father! So why are you asking me to show him to you?"
Is Jesus God? How he described himself:
Jesus said, "I tell you the truth, Moses didn't give you bread from heaven. My Father did. And now he offers you the true bread from heaven. The true bread of God is the one who comes down from heaven and gives life to the world." "Sir," they said, "give us that bread every day." Jesus replied, "I am the bread of life. Whoever comes to me will never be hungry again. Whoever believes in me will never be thirsty."
Jesus spoke to the people once more and said, "I am the light of the world. If you follow me, you won't have to walk in darkness, because you will have the light that leads to life." The Pharisees replied, "You are making those claims about yourself! Such testimony is not valid." Jesus told them, "These claims are valid even though I make them about myself. For I know where I came from and where I am going, but you don't know this about me."
so he explained it to them: "I tell you the truth, I am the gate for the sheep. All who came before me were thieves and robbers. But the true sheep did not listen to them. Yes, I am the gate. Those who come in through me will be saved. They will come and go freely and will find good pastures. The thief's purpose is to steal and kill and destroy. My purpose is to give them a rich and satisfying life. I am the good shepherd. The good shepherd sacrifices his life for the sheep."
Martha said to Jesus, "Lord, if only you had been here, my brother would not have died. But even now I know that God will give you whatever you ask." Jesus told her, "Your brother will rise again." "Yes," Martha said, "he will rise when everyone else rises, at the last day." Jesus told her, "I am the resurrection and the life. Anyone who believes in me will live, even after dying. Everyone who lives in me and believes in me will never ever die. Do you believe this, Martha?" "Yes, Lord," she told him. "I have always believed you are the Messiah, the Son of God, the one who has come into the world from God."
Is Jesus God? What he said he was sent here to do:
But Jesus called them together and said, "You know that the rulers in this world lord it over their people, and officials flaunt their authority over those under them. But among you it will be different. Whoever wants to be a leader among you must be your servant, and whoever wants to be first among you must become your slave. For even the Son of Man came not to be served but to serve others and to give his life as a ransom for many."
for he wanted to spend more time with his disciples and teach them. He said to them, "The Son of Man is going to be betrayed into the hands of his enemies. He will be killed, but three days later he will rise from the dead." They didn't understand what he was saying, however, and they were afraid to ask him what he meant.
"For God loved the world so much that he gave his one and only Son, so that everyone who believes in him will not perish but have eternal life. God sent his Son into the world not to judge the world, but to save the world through him. There is no judgment against anyone who believes in him. But anyone who does not believe in him has already been judged for not believing in God's one and only Son."
However, those the Father has given me will come to me, and I will never reject them. For I have come down from heaven to do the will of God who sent me, not to do my own will. And this is the will of God, that I should not lose even one of all those he has given me, but that I should raise them up at the last day. For it is my Father's will that all who see his Son and believe in him should have eternal life. I will raise them up at the last day."
The following is from
http://www.allaboutjesuschrist.org/did-jesus-say-he-was-god-faq.htm
The gospel of John, which presents Jesus Christ in His deity, is sometimes called the "I AM" book. Over and over again in the book of John, Jesus said, "I AM." To the learned Jew this phrase "I AM" was very significant. It was a claim by Jesus that He is God. Why? In the Old Testament when God called Moses to lead the nation of Israel out of Egypt, He told Moses to tell the nation that "I AM" has sent you (Exodus 3:13-15). "I AM" is the covenant God of Israel, Jehovah! Therefore, the great "I AM" is the designation for God to the nation of Israel and Jesus' statement "I AM" is a clear indication that He was saying, "I AM God "
Bronzesnake
http://www.everystudent.com/wires/whodoyousay.html
Is Jesus God? How he implied he was God:
"Your father Abraham rejoiced as he looked forward to my coming. He saw it and was glad." The people said, "You aren't even fifty years old. How can you say you have seen Abraham?" Jesus answered, "I tell you the truth, before Abraham was even born, I Am!" At that point they picked up stones to throw at him. But Jesus was hidden from them and left the Temple.
"The Father and I are one." Once again the people picked up stones to kill him. Jesus said, "At my Father's direction I have done many good works. For which one are you going to stone me?" They replied, "We're stoning you not for any good work, but for blasphemy! You, a mere man, claim to be God."
Jesus shouted to the crowds, "If you trust me, you are trusting not only me, but also God who sent me. For when you see me, you are seeing the one who sent me. I have come as a light to shine in this dark world, so that all who put their trust in me will no longer remain in the dark."
After washing their feet, he put on his robe again and sat down and asked, "Do you understand what I was doing? You call me 'Teacher' and 'Lord,' and you are right, because that's what I am. And since I, your Lord and Teacher, have washed your feet, you ought to wash each other's feet."
Jesus told him, "I am the way, the truth, and the life. No one can come to the Father except through me. If you had really known me, you would know who my Father is. From now on, you do know him and have seen him!" Philip said, "Lord, show us the Father, and we will be satisfied." Jesus replied, "Have I been with you all this time, Philip, and yet you still don't know who I am? Anyone who has seen me has seen the Father! So why are you asking me to show him to you?"
Is Jesus God? How he described himself:
Jesus said, "I tell you the truth, Moses didn't give you bread from heaven. My Father did. And now he offers you the true bread from heaven. The true bread of God is the one who comes down from heaven and gives life to the world." "Sir," they said, "give us that bread every day." Jesus replied, "I am the bread of life. Whoever comes to me will never be hungry again. Whoever believes in me will never be thirsty."
Jesus spoke to the people once more and said, "I am the light of the world. If you follow me, you won't have to walk in darkness, because you will have the light that leads to life." The Pharisees replied, "You are making those claims about yourself! Such testimony is not valid." Jesus told them, "These claims are valid even though I make them about myself. For I know where I came from and where I am going, but you don't know this about me."
so he explained it to them: "I tell you the truth, I am the gate for the sheep. All who came before me were thieves and robbers. But the true sheep did not listen to them. Yes, I am the gate. Those who come in through me will be saved. They will come and go freely and will find good pastures. The thief's purpose is to steal and kill and destroy. My purpose is to give them a rich and satisfying life. I am the good shepherd. The good shepherd sacrifices his life for the sheep."
Martha said to Jesus, "Lord, if only you had been here, my brother would not have died. But even now I know that God will give you whatever you ask." Jesus told her, "Your brother will rise again." "Yes," Martha said, "he will rise when everyone else rises, at the last day." Jesus told her, "I am the resurrection and the life. Anyone who believes in me will live, even after dying. Everyone who lives in me and believes in me will never ever die. Do you believe this, Martha?" "Yes, Lord," she told him. "I have always believed you are the Messiah, the Son of God, the one who has come into the world from God."
Is Jesus God? What he said he was sent here to do:
But Jesus called them together and said, "You know that the rulers in this world lord it over their people, and officials flaunt their authority over those under them. But among you it will be different. Whoever wants to be a leader among you must be your servant, and whoever wants to be first among you must become your slave. For even the Son of Man came not to be served but to serve others and to give his life as a ransom for many."
for he wanted to spend more time with his disciples and teach them. He said to them, "The Son of Man is going to be betrayed into the hands of his enemies. He will be killed, but three days later he will rise from the dead." They didn't understand what he was saying, however, and they were afraid to ask him what he meant.
"For God loved the world so much that he gave his one and only Son, so that everyone who believes in him will not perish but have eternal life. God sent his Son into the world not to judge the world, but to save the world through him. There is no judgment against anyone who believes in him. But anyone who does not believe in him has already been judged for not believing in God's one and only Son."
However, those the Father has given me will come to me, and I will never reject them. For I have come down from heaven to do the will of God who sent me, not to do my own will. And this is the will of God, that I should not lose even one of all those he has given me, but that I should raise them up at the last day. For it is my Father's will that all who see his Son and believe in him should have eternal life. I will raise them up at the last day."
The following is from
http://www.allaboutjesuschrist.org/did-jesus-say-he-was-god-faq.htm
The gospel of John, which presents Jesus Christ in His deity, is sometimes called the "I AM" book. Over and over again in the book of John, Jesus said, "I AM." To the learned Jew this phrase "I AM" was very significant. It was a claim by Jesus that He is God. Why? In the Old Testament when God called Moses to lead the nation of Israel out of Egypt, He told Moses to tell the nation that "I AM" has sent you (Exodus 3:13-15). "I AM" is the covenant God of Israel, Jehovah! Therefore, the great "I AM" is the designation for God to the nation of Israel and Jesus' statement "I AM" is a clear indication that He was saying, "I AM God "
Bronzesnake
Bronzesnake said:
Why is it that people see something, yet what they claim they see, is not there ? Is it a mirage ?
If I were to tell you , that Jesus and I are one, as the Son and the Father are one, what would you think ? 1. That makes me Jesus or 2. That makes me God < Pick one or none please
To the learned Jew, the Phrase - "I am that I am" was significant, not I am. The messanger was only allowed to represent the I am that I am, by the words "I am" has sent me unto you. Moses did not declare that he was God ! He was declaring that the I am was God. Never did Moses say - "I am God", nor the messanger Jesus Christ the Son of God ever declare with the phrase - "I am God" ! Jesus Christ said that the Father has sent me, just as God sent Moses unto the children of Israel. And Moses was to tell the children of Israel that "I AM" sent me. Which is exactly what Jesus has told us as well. My Father has sent me. Not to do my will, but the will of the Father who sent me.
No man could go unto God , but Moses. For Moses declared God the Father. For no man can declare God unless he is sent. And Moses was sent unto the children of Israel.
Jesus told us that he came to reveal the Father, not tell us he was the Father ! But reveal the Father through the Son. Jesus said , why callest me good, that there is none other good, but my Father in heaven. I am in the Father and the Father in me. I speak not of myself ! But the Father that dwelleth in me, he doth the works. The Word also tells us, that God dwells in us also. Does this make us God ? Absolutely not ! For no man has seen God at any time. We see the Father through Jesus Christ, the Son of God. Israel saw God through Moses.
The very words of Jesus Christ - John 16:27 - 31
27) - "For the Father himself loveth you, because ye have loved me, and have believed that I came out from God"
28) - "I came forth from the Father, and am come into the world : again , I leave the world, and go to the Father"
29) - "His disciples said unto him, Lo, now speakest thou plainly, and speakest no proverb"
30) - "Now are we sure that thou knowest all things, and needest not that any man should ask thee: by this we believe that thou camest forth from God"
31) - "Jesus answered them, Do ye now believe ?"
John 17:1 - "These words spake Jesus, and lifted up his eyes to heaven, and said, Father, the hour is come ; glorify thy Son, that they Son also may glorify thee"
2) - As thou hast given him power over all flesh, that he should give eternal life to as many as thou hast given him"
3) - "And this is life eternal , that they might know thee the only true God, and Jesus Christ whom thou hast sent"
22) - "And the glory which thou gavest me I have given them; that they may be one, even as we are one"
23) - "I in them, and thou in me, that they may be made perfect in one ; and that the world may know that thou hast sent me, and hast loved them, as thou hast loved me"
24) - "Father, I will that they also , whom thou hast given me, be with me where I am; that they may behold my glory, which thou hast given me: for thou lovedst me before the foundation of the world"
25) - "O righeous Father , the world hath not known thee, and these have known that thou hast sent me" < Prayer of Jesus !
26) - "And I have declared unto them thy name, and will declare it : that the love wherewith thou hast loved me may be in them, and I in them" = "Christ in you , the hope of glory"
John 20:17 - "Jesus said unto her, Touch me not; for I am not yet ascended to my Father: but go to my brethren, and say unto them, I ascend unto my Father and your Father ; and to my God, and your God"
:amen
As is inevitable in discussions of the Trinity or the deity of Jesus, the anti-trinitarians cling to the Scriptures which show the humaneness of Jesus, which no trinitarian will deny, and ignore the clear Scriptures which also show his deity and equality with the Father.Mysteryman said:
Free said:
Hi Free
I am not quite sure why you group trinitarians against non-trinitarians. I know for a fact, that not all trinitarians believe alike. On that same note, I also know that non-trinitarians do not believe all alike.
I believe in the diety that Jesus Christ had. But I also understand from scripture, that whatever Jesus Christ had, it was given to him. His diety, would be his authority. God dwells in Christ. Jesus Christ is the only begotten Son of God. He is the anointed one. And in I John 2:27, the Apostle John makes the comment, that those in Christ , have the anointing as well. But the Word also tells us, that God dwells in us also. For we are sons of God, with the authority of God as well.
I grouped them for convenience's sake. A basic foundation of the Trinity is that Jesus is just as much God as is the Father. That is my point. No one can rightly be called trinitarian and at the same time deny that Jesus is in nature God. Of course, Oneness denies the Trinity but theirs is another error.Mysteryman said:
Deity is not something that can be given. Either Christ always was God or he never was God and never can be said to be deity.MM said:
Yahshua said he was a god, one among many. His spirit was placed in a body prepared for him in Mary's womb. And that is how it came to be that he is called The Son of Man, and that is why he is called a Son of God. He said so himself. He came into this world not to be worshipped by man, but to reconcile mankind to God through the New Covenant. The oldest scriptural text do not have the Trinitarian formula, and the translation of some text are corrupted by the scholars who belonged to the Masonic Order, and or the Catholics Popes.
Jude
1. Jude, a servant of Yahshua the Messiah, and brother of James, and to them that are sanctified by Yahwah the Father, also called and saved by Yahshua the Messiah.
2. May mercy, peace, and devotion, be multiplied to you.
3. Loved, I was eager to write to you about the salvation we share, it was necessary for me to write to you, and encourage you to earnestly contend for the faith that was given to the saints.
4. Because you are unaware that certain men have sneaked in, who are of a ancient order to their condemnation...
Jude
1. Jude, a servant of Yahshua the Messiah, and brother of James, and to them that are sanctified by Yahwah the Father, also called and saved by Yahshua the Messiah.
2. May mercy, peace, and devotion, be multiplied to you.
3. Loved, I was eager to write to you about the salvation we share, it was necessary for me to write to you, and encourage you to earnestly contend for the faith that was given to the saints.
4. Because you are unaware that certain men have sneaked in, who are of a ancient order to their condemnation...
Free said:
Hi free
Well that might be your belief. But IMHO you are not using the proper definition of the word deity. I believe that you own your own definition because of a certain belief. The word deity is a much broader definition than you are giving this word.
The word deity, properly understood, is one who has been given authority or power from another, or is recognized authority. A King is a deity, a Lord is a deity, a Prophet of God is a deity.
Hebrews 10:5Free said:
Therefore, when Christ came into the world, he said: "Sacrifice and offering you did not desire, but a body you prepared for me;
NIV Footnotes:
a.Psalm 40:4 Or to falsehood
b.Psalm 40:6 Hebrew; Septuagint but a body you have prepared for me (see also Symmachus and Theodotion)
Matthew 4:10
Jesus said to him, "Away from me, Satan! For it is written: 'Worship the Lord your God, and serve him only.' "
John 5:41
"I do not accept praise from men,...
John 10:33-36 33"We are not stoning you for any of these," replied the Jews, "but for blasphemy, because you, a mere man, claim to be God/a god."
Jesus answered them, "Is it not written in your Law, 'I have said you are gods'? 35If he called them 'gods,' to whom the word of God came—and the Scripture cannot be broken— 36what about the one whom the Father set apart as his very own and sent into the world? Why then do you accuse me of blasphemy because I said, 'I am God's Son'?
So then you are making this a matter of semantics and yet I would say that you are the one redefining the word deity. Here is the definition from webster.com:Mysteryman said:
1 a : the rank or essential nature of a god : divinity b capitalized : god 1, supreme being
2 : a god or goddess <the deities of ancient Greece>
3 : one exalted or revered as supremely good or powerful
In each case, whether it is applied to a human or God, the point is that the object is seen to be God. So, no, the definition isn't much broader; you have merely pointed out it's misuse when applied to men.
The Bible states clearly that Jesus is God just as the Father is yet they are distinct. Jesus is worshiped as God because he is God. The Bible also makes clear that Jesus was truly human. Neither of these ideas can be ignored when speaking of the nature of God.
Free said:
Hi free
I don't want to argue with you just for argument sake. That is a waste of both of our time and effort. However , I will point out, that anything i have said or declared , I have supported by scripture.
And the definition of the word deity is as the dictionary states. And I gave you an exact example by telling you that even a King is a deity, or a Lord is a deity, or a Prophet of God is a deity. Or it is one who recognizes authority < which means that this is a very broad view of the word "deity".
Nothing I quoted from scripture can be denied, unless one denies the scriptures themselves.
Bless
And yet you ignore the verses where Jesus accepts worship (all from the ESV):mdo757 said:
Mat 2:2 saying, "Where is he who has been born king of the Jews? For we saw his star when it rose and have come to worship him."
Mat 2:11 And going into the house they saw the child with Mary his mother, and they fell down and worshiped him. Then, opening their treasures, they offered him gifts, gold and frankincense and myrrh.
Mat 14:33 And those in the boat worshiped him, saying, "Truly you are the Son of God."
Mat 28:9 And behold, Jesus met them and said, "Greetings!" And they came up and took hold of his feet and worshiped him.
Mat 28:17 And when they saw him they worshiped him, but some doubted.
Luk 24:52 And they worshiped him and returned to Jerusalem with great joy,
Joh 9:38 He said, "Lord, I believe," and he worshiped him.
mdo757 said:
The term "Godhead" is an English variant of the word "godhood" and was first introduced by John Wycliffe (1330-1384 C.E.) in English Bible versions as godhede. The word "Godhead" is a translation of three different Greek words, theion (meaning "divinity, deity", # 2304 in Thayer's Greek-English Lexicon of the New Testament) at Acts 17:29, theiot?s (meaning "divinity, divine nature", # 2305 in Thayer's Greek-English Lexicon of the New Testament) at Romans 1:20, and theot?s (meaning "deity", # 2320 in Thayer's Greek-English Lexicon of the New Testament) at Colossians 2:9.
To translate three different Greek words as one word and deviously incorrect at that in the King James Bible, is no different than translating in the King James Bible, the Hebrew word she’ohl´ with three different English words of "hell" (10 times), "grave" (31 times), and "pit" (3 times).
This is not unlike having three different names for one street on a map (with the real name hidden), so that when a person used it, he wound up lost. Likewise of those who read Bibles with "Godhead" in it, thereby misleading a person that the trinity is "real".
Hence, the need for an accurate Bible, one that renders Hebrew and Greek words and phrases with a high degree of precision, just as a map that can be counted on to provide exact information. Unfortunately, many Bibles follow the lead of the King James Bible, or is otherwise biased, because the trinity, along with a host of other religious teachings that are not true, has such a strangle hold on so many.
Mysteryman said:
Mysteryman, you do seem to want to argue for arguments sake, IMHO. I know we've resolved a little bit of tension that was mounting, and I think we came to an understanding. I don't want to create more strife, but I have to take issue with this. You're argument seems to have come down to a definition of "deity". Of course, when we talk about the deity of Jesus, you know what we are saying. And you also know all the scripture that you have to look past to ignore His divinity.
When I was engaged with Mohrb, you stepped in and were taking issue with how I define a "Christian". Who God calls His sons and daughters is of His providence. Who we define as Christian in not letting other faiths claim it and muddy the waters, seems to be more of a man-made definition. So I'm uncomfortable including those who reject a main tenet of my faith in with a name that is associated with our faith.
I honestly have a hard time understanding where you are coming from.
