I Am Done With Church

[reba]

Common sense and grace seem to go right out the window when dealing with small community churches.

Great line

 

[Jethro Bodine]

You??? You who??

That hasn't been my experience. My relationship with God and my brothers and sisters is enhanced by the ancient liturgy.

Not a chance. Been there, done that.

But like I said, everybody has their own definition of what being serious about Christianity is and looks like. Liturgy ruined/ ruins the church. But Christians have no way of realizing that until they experience what really works.

 

[Jethro Bodine]

Who on this board goes to church each and every Sunday and Bible study ?

Meh.

Okay, not every single Sunday.
I've missed a couple lately for various reasons.

 

[Jethro Bodine]

Are you kidding?
I've been known for skipping service and only making it to small group.

I'm talking about the church at large. Obviously, you know what I'm talking about in regard to the 'traditional' church.

I am who I am and if they don't want me there they are gonna have to grow a pair and say something to my face...which the haters ain't ever going to do. I'd crush them both biblically and publicly.

Don't fight 'em.
Just hit the door.

 

[FireInCairo]

The real issue is the typical model for church leadership is a failure. The apostles worked in teams, deferring to Christ within one another. These teams were very, very close. They were bunk-mates on long journeys, they were daily companions in the streets evangelizing or teaching in small groups. They respected the presence of the Holy Spirit, and were quick to recognize His working among them when it came to decision making.

God loves to work through teams because no one man gets the glory, and it's obvious it's Jesus' hand at work. There is no quicker route to burnout than trying to do something for God alone and in your flesh.

 

[Jim Parker]

Liturgy ruined/ ruins the church.

sigh

Liturgy is what the believers practiced since the 1st century.

Act 13:2 As they ministered to the Lord and fasted, the Holy Spirit said, “Now separate to Me Barnabas and Saul for the work to which I have called them.”

The word translated "ministered" is the Greek word , "λειτουργέω" (Leitourgeo) from which we get the modern English word "Liturgy."


That the early church had a developed liturgy by the second century is attested to by the statements of Justin Martyr.

Justin Martyr: (AD 103-165) The First Apology of Justin
Chapter LXVII.—Weekly Worship of the Christians.

…… (1) And on the day called Sunday, all who live in cities or in the country gather together to one place, and
(2) the memoirs of the apostles or the writings of the prophets are read, as long as time permits;
(3) then, when the reader has ceased, the president1 verbally instructs, and exhorts to the imitation of these good things.
(4) Then we all rise together and pray, and, as we before said, when our prayer is ended,
(5) bread and wine and water are brought, and the president1 in like manner offers prayers and thanksgivings, according to his ability, and
(6) the people assent, saying Amen;
(7) and there is a distribution to each, and a participation of that over which thanks have been given, (the Eucharist) and to those who are absent a portion is sent by the deacons………….

(1) Sunday is the day on which we all hold our common assembly, because it is the first day on which God, having wrought a change in the darkness and matter, made the world; and Jesus Christ our Saviour on the same day rose from the dead. For He was crucified on the day before that of Saturn (Saturday); and on the day after that of Saturn, which is the day of the Sun, having appeared to His apostles and disciples,

(8) He (Jesus) taught them (the apostles & disciples) these things, which we have submitted to you also for your consideration.

(1) Justin described a gathering
(a) of the entire local church,
(b) at a place which would accommodate them,
(c) on Sunday.

He then described the process of the meeting which are easily identified as:

A. the Liturgy of the word
(2) The reading of the Gospels or Prophets
(3) The sermon
(4) The prayers of the people

B. The Liturgy of the Eucharist
(5) The consecration of the bread and wine (by the presider, AKA: "priest")
(6) The “great Amen”
(7) The people receive the Eucharist

The source of this form of liturgy: Justin stated that it was Jesus who taught this form of worship. (8) Thus, Justin refuted the notion that the Mass was a later development.

What Justin describes is the basic format of the liturgy which is followed to this day in all Orthodox, Roman Catholic, Lutheran, Anglican, Coptic and Assyrian Churches.

1. The “president” refers to the presiding presbyter or the bishop. The word “presbyter” has come down to us in modern English as “priest.”

But Christians have no way of realizing that until they experience what really works.

Worked better than what has worked just fine for 2000 years?

Worked better than what Jesus told his apostles to do?

Oh, brave new world to have such people in it!

 

[Jim Parker]

The real issue is the typical model for church leadership is a failure. The apostles worked in teams, deferring to Christ within one another. These teams were very, very close. They were bunk-mates on long journeys, they were daily companions in the streets evangelizing or teaching in small groups. They respected the presence of the Holy Spirit, and were quick to recognize His working among them when it came to decision making.

God loves to work through teams because no one man gets the glory, and it's obvious it's Jesus' hand at work. There is no quicker route to burnout than trying to do something for God alone and in your flesh.

Hmmmm.

You know, that sounds something like: Eph 4:11-16 And his gifts were that some should be apostles, some prophets, some evangelists, some pastors and teachers, to equip the saints for the work of ministry, for building up the body of Christ, until we all attain to the unity of the faith and of the knowledge of the Son of God, to mature manhood, to the measure of the stature of the fullness of Christ; so that we may no longer be children, tossed to and fro and carried about with every wind of doctrine, by the cunning of men, by their craftiness in deceitful wiles. Rather, speaking the truth in love, we are to grow up in every way into him who is the head, into Christ, from whom the whole body, joined and knit together by every joint with which it is supplied, when each part is working properly, makes bodily growth and upbuilds itself in love.

How about that?!

iakov the fool

 

[FireInCairo]

Hmmmm.

You know, that sounds something like: Eph 4:11-16 And his gifts were that some should be apostles, some prophets, some evangelists, some pastors and teachers, to equip the saints for the work of ministry, for building up the body of Christ, until we all attain to the unity of the faith and of the knowledge of the Son of God, to mature manhood, to the measure of the stature of the fullness of Christ; so that we may no longer be children, tossed to and fro and carried about with every wind of doctrine, by the cunning of men, by their craftiness in deceitful wiles. Rather, speaking the truth in love, we are to grow up in every way into him who is the head, into Christ, from whom the whole body, joined and knit together by every joint with which it is supplied, when each part is working properly, makes bodily growth and upbuilds itself in love.

How about that?!

iakov the fool

Exactly!

You will also note the giftings in which the different apostles were strongest. Peter was a prophet and a pastor, but was certainly not strong on teaching. Paul was clearly an evangelist (what he would call a "preacher"), pastor, and, obviously, a gifted teacher!

Paul often would go on missions with those with strong prophetic callings such as Barnabas ans Silas for good reason. He didn't dare to try and do what God called him to do all by himself (he likely learned the hard way early on).

 

[Jim Parker]

Exactly!

Paul ....didn't dare to try and do what God called him to do all by himself (he likely learned the hard way early on).

Jesus sent out the 12 and then the 70 in teams of two.

 

[Blake]

Be strong, Blake, be strong.

There's a lot to love about it. But with apologies to my Ortho brothers and sisters, there's also a lot not to.

Much love to you and yours this holiday season bro Jethro, we don't chat a whole lot on these forums but I continue to see you as a mentor and voice of reason. :nod

 

[Jim Parker]

There's a lot to love about it. But with apologies to my Ortho brothers and sisters, there's also a lot not to.

It's the same with every church. If only it weren't for all those people who keep coming........

Groucho Marx once said he wouldn't join any club that would admit him.

 

[Jim Parker]

oops pushed wrong button

 

[iLOVE]

The Spirit clearly says that in later times some will abandon the faith and follow deceiving spirits and things taught by demons. 1 Timothy 4:1 NIV

Whenever Satan moves against you, he always moves in the realm of death, because "the wages of sin is death" (Romans 6:23). And even if Satan doesn't kill you physically, he wants to ruin you spiritually. He wants you to live in the sphere of death.

 

[Rollo Tamasi]

Okay, here's the answer.

http://www.awakeamerica365.com/

 

[Jethro Bodine]

Much love to you and yours this holiday season bro Jethro

And much to you and yours, too, dear brother.

we don't chat a whole lot on these forums but I continue to see you as a mentor and voice of reason. :nod

Thank you kind sir. Your wisdom and insights in your honest journey of faith has been an encouragement to us all.

 

[Jethro Bodine]

It's the same with every church. If only it weren't for all those people who keep coming........

No, that's not the problem.
It's the ineffective, unBiblical model we have adopted for conducting the meeting of us imperfect and often annoying saints.

 

[Jethro Bodine]

Okay, here's the answer.

http://www.awakeamerica365.com/

Ouch! So early in the morning.
I'll wait till lunch to dig into it.

 

[smaller]

I personally detest "ritualism" masquerading as faith. Nor do I believe that God in Christ is bent or swayed by such, to be for or against us by doing or not doing.

Seriously, if God wants to get somethings done, they will get done. What might these things be and where do I fit in are always the questions to bring in prayer.

Was the goal of Christ to re-institute new upgraded forms of ritualism, from Jewish O.T. to Christian N.T?

Unlikely. Church in general is a social phenomena. Go see "The Force Awakens" or go to church. Is there a difference? Only if the person doing so thinks there is.

Do I really think ringing a little bell to get my attention drawn to the wafer means anything? To some it might. For me, no. Externalizing "real presence" is phony. Breaking bread DOES have other meanings, that are far more interesting. Real Presence was always meant to be internal. How and why did that change? We can thank the postures of sacerdotal isms and power grabbing God in Christ for all of that. Even in baptism, or laying on of hands, contains far more than dead exercises. But unfortunately these things became 'canned' over time and have really lost their meanings. Now these are just various ways to sell different brandings of sects. And now used to "judge" one another adversely. "Which church do you go to?" is really just a way believers use to condemn and judge each others in their hearts, today. Don't know how many times I've heard this in my believing life. "What BRAND are you?" Do I look like somebody's BRAND SLAVE? Consumerist drivel.

Jesus did call us to be witnesses to others. We "witness" or "testify" to the Love of God in Christ to others. And we stand against evil/deceptions, which are spiritually adverse in nature, that enslave others.

Christianity is not more complicated than this simplicity.

Do all these various sects condemn me for not being a part of their group? Undoubtedly, YES. And on that basis, they can keep their ritualism. I'm not interested.

 

[Jethro Bodine]

(1) Justin described a gathering
(a) of the entire local church,
(b) at a place which would accommodate them,
(c) on Sunday.

He then described the process of the meeting which are easily identified as:

A. the Liturgy of the word
(2) The reading of the Gospels or Prophets
(3) The sermon
(4) The prayers of the people

B. The Liturgy of the Eucharist
(5) The consecration of the bread and wine (by the presider, AKA: "priest")
(6) The “great Amen”
(7) The people receive the Eucharist

The source of this form of liturgy: Justin stated that it was Jesus who taught this form of worship. (8) Thus, Justin refuted the notion that the Mass was a later development.

What Justin describes is the basic format of the liturgy which is followed to this day in all Orthodox, Roman Catholic, Lutheran, Anglican, Coptic and Assyrian Churches.

1. The “president” refers to the presiding presbyter or the bishop. The word “presbyter” has come down to us in modern English as “priest.”

How sad that by Justin's time Paul's instructions for the meeting of the saints had been replaced by mechanical religion.

 

[Jethro Bodine]

Okay, here's the answer.

http://www.awakeamerica365.com/

Okay, back to this.
It's the answer for what?