"I Believe" Does That Mean I'm Saved?

[FreeGrace]

Again, you redefine a word here, so that you give it "another' meaning.

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Seal here does not mean what you are claiming it means.

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The Holy Spirit is given to those who obey the Gospel.

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The Holy Spirit is God's seal of authenticity.

The Holy Spirit is the "proof" you are God's child.

Yep. And just as the birth parent to child RELATIONSHIP is permanent and cannot be broken, the same is true of our spiritual birth Parent and those who believe. It is permanent.

No one has shown otherwise.

The Holy Spirit is the grace of God, The Spirit of Grace.

Strong's # G4972 - https://www.blueletterbible.org/lang/Lexicon/Lexicon.cfm?strongs=G4972&t=KJV


to set a seal upon, mark with a seal, to seal

1. for security: from Satan
   
2. since things sealed up are concealed (as the contents of a letter), to hide, keep in silence, keep secret
   
3. in order to mark a person or a thing
   1. to set a mark upon by the impress of a seal or a stamp
      
   2. angels are said to be sealed by God
4. in order to prove, confirm, or attest a thing
   1. to confirm authenticate, place beyond doubt
      1. of a written document
         
      2. to prove one's testimony to a person that he is what he professes to be

This seal of the Holy Spirit is for those who believe/obey the Gospel.

Believe the gospel. All believes are sealed with the Holy Spirit according to Eph 1:13. It's NOT conditioned upon performance. Please prove your claim from Scripture.

Further, the onus is on you to prove from Scripture that all the verses I posted regarding the sealing with the Holy Spirit do NOT guarantee the believer for the day of redemption.

This doesn't mean a person can not ever choose to turn away from God to idolatry, or go back to the unrighteous lifestyle they once had.
JLB

Correct. Yet, there are NO verses about one's performance leading to loss of salvation or eternal life.

And as I've shown from Scripture, God's gifts are irrevocable in Rom 11:29. And Paul didn't add any exclusion.

And paul previousy described both justification (Rom 5:15,16,17) and eternal life (Rom 6:23) as gifts of God.

Therefore, we know that eternal life is irrevocable.

 

[JLB]

Correct. Yet, there are NO verses about one's performance leading to loss of salvation or eternal life.

And as I've shown from Scripture, God's gifts are irrevocable in Rom 11:29. And Paul didn't add any exclusion.

And paul previousy described both justification (Rom 5:15,16,17) and eternal life (Rom 6:23) as gifts of God.

Therefore, we know that eternal life is irrevocable.

Again you must redefine what eternal life is, rather than what Jesus says it is:


And this is eternal life, that they may know You, the only true God, and Jesus Christ whom You have sent.
John 17:3

All you have to do is show us that a person can still have eternal life, though they become "disconnected" from Him.


If anyone does not abide in Me, he is cast out as a branch and is withered; and they gather them and throw them into the fire, and they are burned. John 15:6


Jesus warns us, that if we don't remain connected to Him, we are in danger of being cast into the fire.


Please show us the scripture that says; it's impossible to become disconnected from Him, or the scripture that says we still have eternal life, though we have become disconnected from Him.


It's your choice:

• Either provide a scripture that says: we can never become disconnected from Him, once we are in Him.

or

• Provide the scripture that says we still have eternal life, even though we have become disconnected from Him

JLB

 

[GodsGrace]

(Post removed. Failure to follow A&T guidelines, specifically: "Subsequent responses either opposing or adding additional information should include references to specific supportive scripture relevant to the thread and offer explanation of the member's understanding of how that scripture applies. There have been several warnings placed in this thread by staff and administration which were not meant to be ignored. Obadiah)

 

[JLB]

Believe the gospel. All believes are sealed with the Holy Spirit according to Eph 1:13. It's NOT conditioned upon performance. Please prove your claim from Scripture.

If anyone does not abide in Me, he is cast out as a branch and is withered; and they gather them and throw them into the fire, and they are burned. John 15:6


What is the reason these who were in Him, and then ended up being cast into the fire and burned?



JLB

 

[FreeGrace]

Again you must redefine what eternal life is, rather than what Jesus says it is:
And this is eternal life, that they may know You, the only true God, and Jesus Christ whom You have sent.
John 17:3

Those who have believed obviously have know Him. Otherwise, what were they even believing in? So your point is not taken.

All you have to do is show us that a person can still have eternal life, though they become "disconnected" from Him.

No, the onus is on your to prove from Scripture that anyone who has believed can become disconnected from Christ. Oh, and according to your own rules, make sure the Scripture uses the word "disconnected" as well.

If anyone does not abide in Me, he is cast out as a branch and is withered; and they gather them and throw them into the fire, and they are burned. John 15:6

Agricultural metaphor. And you've not shown nor proven that abiding means RELATIONSHIP rather than FELLOWSHIP.

Jesus warns us, that if we don't remain connected to Him, we are in danger of being cast into the fire.

no, totally not true. He spoke of abiding, not being "connected".

Please show us the scripture that says; it's impossible to become disconnected from Him, or the scripture that says we still have eternal life, though we have become disconnected from Him.

Please show from Scripture where disconnection is even mentioned. You've already shown your view that since the actual words "eternal life" do not occur in Rom 11:29, that the verse isn't about eternal life.

So, show any verse that says anything about being disconnected from Christ.

Although, that will be impossible, since I've already proven from Scripture that those who believe ARE sealed with the Holy Spirit WHEN they believe, and this is a promise of God to His own possession (His own children) for the day of redemption.

Please explain what these mean:

"day of redemption"
"promise"
"guarantee"

Here's the whole concept again, from Scripture:Paul clearly taught eternal security in these verses:

Eph 1:13,14 - 13InHim, you also, after listening to the message of truth, the gospel of your salvation—having also believed, you were sealed in Him with the Holy Spirit of promise, 14who is given as a pledge of our inheritance, with a view to the redemption of God’s own possession, to the praise of His glory.

Eph 4:30 - Do not grieve the Holy Spirit of God, by whom you were sealed for the day of redemption.

2 Cor 1:22 - who also sealed us and gave us the Spirit in our hearts as a pledge.

2 Cor 5:5 - Now He who prepared us for this very purpose is God, who gave to us the Spirit as a pledge.

So, what has Paul taught here?

First, having believed, we are SEALED IN HIM (union with Christ) with the Holy Spirit of PROMISE, given as a PLEDGE FOR the day of redemption of God's own possession. This seal is a PLEDGE from God.

And consider this verse:

Heb 6:18 - so that by two unchangeable things in which it is impossible for God to lie, we who have taken refuge would have strong encouragement to take hold of the hope set before us.

So, for one to accept your view of loss of salvation, 2 things are required:

1. Either prove by exegesis that Eph 1:13,14 4:30, 2 Cor 1:22 and 5:5 do NOT teach eternal security, or

2. Accept that God DOES break His promises and pledges, which makes Him a liar. Even though Scripture SAYS that it is impossible for God to lie. Titus 1:2 and Heb 6:18

It's your choice:

No, the choice is yours. Which do you believe; #1 or #2? That's what your view demands as a conclusion.

Either provide a scripture that says: we can never become disconnected from Him, once we are in Him.

I did. God's gifts are irrevocable (Rom 11:29) and eternal life is one of God's gifts (Rom 6:23).

Also, see the verses above on the sealing with the Holy Spirit, which is for the day of redemption.

Also, 1 Thess 5:10 - who died for us, so that whether we are awake or asleep, we will live together with Him.

v.4-9 contrast believers with unbelievers by use of analogy: light and dark, sober/alert and drunk. So when Paul concludes with v.10, by "awake or asleep" in reference to believers, he is speaking of lifestyle. And EITHER lifestyle WILL result in "living together with Him".

Provide the scripture that says we still have eternal life, even though we have become disconnected from HimJLB

I did already. God's gifts are irrevocable (Rom 11:29). And one of God's gifts is eternal life (Rom 6:23), which is irrevocable.

So, whatever you mean by "being disconnected" does NOT change the meaning of what irrevocable means.

 

[FreeGrace]

A thought did come to mind, FreeGrace. You say the onus is on JLB to show that your analysis is wrong from scripture.

I make that challenge for this reason: if I am wrong, and do not have the truth, it should be relatively easy to prove that I'm wrong. For truth cannot be refuted. Only false doctrine can be refuted by the truth.

IOW, you're absolutely sure that OSAS is the correct doctrine.

Because eternal life, a gift of God (Rom 6:23) is irrevocable (Rom 11:29). No other reason. No one has proven from Scripture that this is wrong and that Paul didn't mean to include eternal life as a gift of God that is revocable. In fact, JLB won't even address this. If Paul didn't mean to include eternal life as one of the gifts of God that are irrevocable, where's the evidence? He cannot provide any.

The major denominations that exist today are in favor of loss of salvation.

I've never subscribed to the idea of theology by democracy.

Their theologians have had all the arguments we're having and have determined that salvation can be lost. How many denominations believe in OSAS?

Don't know. Don't care. I know what the Scripture says, and no one has refuted any of it. Disagreed? Oh yeah. Plenty of times. But none have refuted if, even though some have made that claim. Scripture has refuted them.

Even Calvinists don't believe in eternal salvation. They believe if you're saved you must be one of the elect - and if you FALL AWAY AND BECOME UNSAVED, then you must never have been saved to begin with.

I've never heard that before from any Calvinist and I've been dealing with Calvinists for over a decade. They absolutely DO believe in eternal security. I think you've misread something, or misunderstood something.

So they do believe in the concept of Falling Away.

I think you have Arminians in mind. What you've described fits their theology. They equate falling away with loss of salvation, but they can't prove that claim.

Which begs the question: How do I know I'm really saved???

Read and believe what the Bible says about it.

1 Jn 5:13 - These things I have written to you who believe in the name of the Son of God, so that you may know that you have eternal life.

Do you believe this verse? I do.

Do I have to wait till I die to know that I haven't fallen away and am really saved?

No. Why would falling away from the faith result in loss of salvation? What verse SAYS that?

OSAS is incorrect on so many fronts.

Only for those who seem not to have much understanding of God's grace, and don't really believe the promises that God has made to His children.

And no one can show that the human birth parent-child RELATIONSHIP can be broken. Only FELLOWSHIP can be, but that is not salvation. Fellowship is the condition of the relationship.

Are there any verses that speak of loss of salvation from loss of fellowship? no.

I'm going to answer your reply to me, but not this evening.
But JLB has brought up many good points.
Wondering

No he hasn't. He cannot prove his view from Scripture. All of the verses he's cited can be explained in ways that are totally reasonable and fit with all the rest of Scripture.

If his view were true, then Scripture is contradicted. Maybe there are those who are ok with that, but I'm not.

 

[FreeGrace]

If anyone does not abide in Me, he is cast out as a branch and is withered; and they gather them and throw them into the fire, and they are burned. John 15:6


What is the reason these who were in Him, and then ended up being cast into the fire and burned?
JLB

I'm always happy to explain Scripture to those unsure of or simply fail to understand but ask.

Jesus used an agricultural metaphor which speaks of being useful or not, depending upon whether the believer is abiding in Jesus or not. Clearly about fellowship, and cannot be about relationship, as previously proven.

But I'm always happy to be of help.

 

[reba]

For me i just dont believe every person who has ever prayed the 'sinners prayer' is saved..
The end this discussion always comes too after pages and pages or days and days is 'well they were just never really saved'
Which removes any value of the argument..

added; Joh_8:51 Verily, verily, I say unto you, If a man keep my saying, he shall never see death.

 

[JLB]

Agricultural metaphor. And you've not shown nor proven that abiding means RELATIONSHIP rather than FELLOWSHIP.

A metaphor that teaches us about people, and there connection to Christ.

If anyone does not abide in Me, he is cast out as a branch and is withered; and they gather them and throw them into the fire, and they are burned.John 15:6

These are references to people.


Those who are connected to HIm, have eternal life.

Those who become disconnected from HIm, are thrown into the fire and burned.

Jesus used an agricultural metaphor which speaks of being useful or not, depending upon whether the believer is abiding in Jesus or not. Clearly about fellowship, and cannot be about relationship, as previously proven.

Proven?

All you have done is deny God's word.

You have proven that you reject what Christ said.

You have proven, that you have to redefine what Christ said, to try and convince people of your "theory".

That's about all you have proven.


What you have not proven is...the reason these who were in Him, and then ended up being cast into the fire and burned?

You just "made up" your own scenario that doesn't include people thrown into the fire.

Here read these words for yourself - ...they gather them and throw them into the fire, and they are burned.

Those who became disconnected from Him, and were thrown into the fire.

Into the fire and burned.

That's unmistakably and irrefutable.

THROWN INTO THE FIRE AND BURNED.

Those who were thrown into the fire and burned, are those who were in Him, then they became disconnected from Him, and thrown into the fire and burned.



JLB

 

[JLB]

Those who have believed obviously have know Him. Otherwise, what were they even believing in? So your point is not taken.

Those who were in Him, became connected to Him by believing.

Then later they were no longer in Him, and thrown into the fire.

They did not abide; remain connected to Him.

• Either provide a scripture that says: we can never become disconnected from Him, once we are in Him.

or

• Provide the scripture that says we still have eternal life, even though we have become disconnected from Him

JLB

 

[GodsGrace]

FOR FREEGRACE

Good Morning,

It seems to me that you make all arguments null and void by your understanding of Relationship vs Fellowship.
You say that it's possible to end fellowship, but not relationship. Of course, I disagree.

There is a problem with this since we are not born into God's family, but have been grafted in. We are sons by adoption. We are sons because of Ephesians 1:13,14 which you cite many times regarding the seal.
This verse says that "you were included in Christ when you heard the word of truth, the gospel of your salvation. HAVING BELIEVED you were marked IN HIM with A seal, the promised Holy Spirit." The seal is the Holy Spirit.

Again we're faced with the word "believed". Believing is essential to Christianity. We must believe in Christ. To believe means to accept, to follow, to adhere to, to agree with. If one falls away, is he still believing?

(In your own words you cite John 3:36 "He who believes in the Son has eternal life, but he who does not OBEY the Son will not see life, but the wrath of God abides on him."
Then you go on to say that in your lexicon "not obey" (apietho) means to disbelieve.
My point exactly! If we are not obeying, how do we have life? If we fall away, we are not obeying.)

We were marked IN HIM. In Christ. We're trusting IN HIM for our seal. If we abandon Him, are we still trusting in Him? No. Our trust has returned to the world or to some other god or to our own beliefs. We are no longer trusting IN HIM. We were marked with A seal - and which seal would that be ? The promised Holy Spirit. The Holy Spirit IS our seal, for as long as we are IN CHRIST.

Your concept refuses the idea of sonship by adoption, the possibility of losing sonship, the understanding of belief as not being as deep as the Greek word describes it in the original writing of the N.T. and this idea of being sealed.

If we can be so sure of this seal, why would Paul say:
Phillipians 2:12
"Therefore, my dear friends, as you have always obeyed--not only in my presence, but now much more in my absence--continue to work out your salvation with fear and trembling,"

I see you understand tenses really well - Paul says CONTINUE to work out your salvation with fear and trembling.

Also, 1 Peter 2:2 says:
"Therefore, rid yourselves of all malice and all deceit, hypocrisy, envy, and slander of every kind. 2 Like newborn babies, crave pure spiritual milk, so that by it you may grow up in your salvation, 3 now that you have tasted that the Lord is good"

Above we see both an exhortation to be holy and to GROW in our salvation, showing it as a continuous process.

Can we speak to Justification and Sanctification for a moment?
Justification: In a moment we are justified in God's eyes.
Sanctification: A continuing process by which we are made holy.

God's aim is that we should be holy. Jesus said:
"Be perfect as your heavenly Father is perfect".
Mathew 5:48 NIV

Jesus didn't mean we could ever be perfect, but it is His goal for us. If God in heaven is perfect, we are to be perfect as He is. This is the goal. If sanctification ends, and we cease to try to be perfect, can we still be justified? Are we justified in God's eyes if we stop following His goal for us? I believe the answer to that has to be No.
If sanctification ends, justification comes to a halt. We must always remember that Paul is writing to believers so everything he says is directed to them, NOT to unbelievers trying to come into the fold. In fact the letter to Ephesus is addressed to: "The saints in Ephesus, the FAITHFUL in Christ Jesus." Ephesians 1:1 NIV.
Yes, as in Phillipians, why would the Ephesians need to continue to work out their salvation? Does Paul command different requirements from different communities? No. The requirements are the same for all Christians.

It is God's work to make saints - it's man's work to BELIEVE. If we do not believe, we cannot become saints. Believing is to believe in Christ. Christianity is centered on Christ and we are to believe His words. Christ used the word IF many times, which I have shown in previous posts. The Ephesians were surrounded by pagans and Paul did not want the new Christians to be influenced by these pagans and thus return to their old ways and thus lose their salvation. This brings us back to 2 Peter 2:20-22 NIV (a dog returning to his vomit). This is clearly showing that Paul is speaking to some who had come to believe in the Lord, as in Ephesus, and then had abandoned the Lord's teachings. In your reply to this you say it's not speaking to eternity but that one will be facing God's anger for their TURNING AWAY and the discipline that will come. Well, what happens to those with whom God is angry? Seems like if God is angry at them, they are not longer under the "cover" of Jesus and God is seeing only our sinful soul.

See Romans 13:13-14 NIV It speaks, again, to how we're not to behave IF we're to follow Jesus AND to put Him on as a coat of salvation. He WILL save us, IF we believe in Him and follow Him and accept Him and agree with Him.

The Kingdom starts here, and you're right that much is referred to here, but the main reason Jesus came to us was to teach us how to get to heaven. Since He, as God, had full authority to do so.

Otherwise, He becomes just another nice and good moral teacher.

Wondering
P.S. Could you please check that quote feature? It's not working when you reply and it makes it very difficult for me to read since it all becomes one with my comments.

 

[JLB]

Freegrace said - Yep. And just as the birth parent to child RELATIONSHIP is permanent and cannot be broken, the same is true of our spiritual birth Parent and those who believe. It is permanent.

The relationship between Lucifer, God's son, as well as the angels who sinned during the days of Noah, and God the Father has not changed, in the fact that God is still their Father, and they are still sons of God.

However, this does not prevent these sons of God from being cast into hell.

For if God did not spare the angels who sinned, but cast them down to hell and delivered them into chains of darkness, to be reserved for judgment; 2 Peter 2:4

and again

“How you are fallen from heaven, O Lucifer, son of the morning!
How you are cut down to the ground, You who weakened the nations!
13 For you have said in your heart: ‘I will ascend into heaven,
I will exalt my throne above the stars of God; I will also sit on the mount of the congregation on the farthest sides of the north;
14 I will ascend above the heights of the clouds, I will be like the Most High.’
15 Yet you shall be brought down to Sheol, To the lowest depths of the Pit. Isaiah 14:12-15

and again

41 “Then He will also say to those on the left hand, ‘Depart from Me, you cursed, into the everlasting fire prepared for the devil and his angels: Matthew 25:41


JLB

 

[Malachi]

I guess a greater study should be done on the difference between faith and belief, but just because someone says they believe they are saved does not make it so, as is evidenced by their fruit.

Actually faith and belief are synonymous in the New Testament. It is one thing to say "I believe I am saved" (uncertainty) and another thing to say "I have believed and therefore I am saved" (certainty). We should not try to make salvation more complicated than it is. What does Scripture say (Jon 3:14-18)?:
And as Moses lifted up the serpent in the wilderness, even so must the Son of man be lifted up: That whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have eternal life. For God so loved the world, that he gave his only begotten Son, that whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have everlasting life. For God sent not his Son into the world to condemn the world; but that the world through him might be saved. He that believeth on him is not condemned: but he that believeth not is condemned already, because he hath not believed in the name of the only begotten Son of God.

It is not faith as such that saves us, but it is the Person in whom we have placed our faith, and the finished work of redemption which He has accomplished, which saves us by God grace.

BTW while fruit may be the evidence of salvation in the eyes of men, genuine faith (which is always accompanied by repentance) is evidence enough in God's eyes. That is why the Brazen Serpent is shown as a type of Christ above. A simple look of faith saved the one who was bitten, as it also saved that malefactor on the cross beside Christ, who had absolutely no fruit to present. While good works must follow salvation, good works do not save.

 

[FreeGrace]

I figure if believing alone produced salvation then Satan is saved. It would seem it requires more than just believing in Jesus.

The real issue in believing in Christ is better understood that, to believe is to trust your very soul to Christ for salvation. Satan certainly has not done that.

Yes, he and all the demons believe that Jesus is the Christ, the Son of God. But not on the basis of trusting their angelic souls, or whatever they are, to salvation. They believe that Jesus is the Christ because all the demons once worshiped God the Father, God the Son, and God the Holy Spirit, before they rebelled against God.

Their belief is from experience, not trust, and they are not trusting Him for anything except future guaranteed judgment.

Matt 8:29 - And they cried out, saying, “What business do we have with each other, Son of God? Have You come here to torment us before the time?”

 

[Rollo Tamasi]

Unity in the body of Christ

Ephesians 4:15-16;
Instead, speaking the truth in love, we will in all things grow up into him who is the head, that is, Christ. From him the whole body, joined and held together by every supporting ligament, grows and builds itself up in love, as each part does its work".
Spiritual growth
Spiritual maturity
Spiritual progress
Spiritual love

I see this all coming from FreeGrace,
But those of you who take a non-OSAS stance, where is your love?
You are destroying someone's faith, causing them to think they have to work hard every moment of their lives or they will lose their salvation.
How does this edify the body of Christ?
Romans 14:19
1 Corinthians 14:4
Ephesians 4:12-13;