"I Believe" Does That Mean I'm Saved?

[smaller]

No that would "Relativism", which is a modern day Heresy, whereby Truth is redefined and "re-manufactured", and is based on the person's perspective, or culture or circumstances.

Uh, no. It's a difference in how we understand the judgment of believers and fire. You read it and go to automatic hell. I read it and see correction or the judgment of works by fire that still results in salvation.

 

[FreeGrace]

You can "redefine" words, and biblical phrases all you want, it doesn't change the outcome.

Everyone who reads this thread knows better than that, as you too.

If anyone does not abide in Me, he is cast out as a branch and is withered; and they gather them and throw them into the fire, and they are burned. John 15:6

Yep. Agricultural metaphor about not being useful.

And the notion that this verse is about loss of salvation is totally refuted by the fact that eternal life is a gift of God, and God's gifts are irrevocable. Rom 6:23, 11:29.

Further, all believers have been sealed with the Holy Spirit, which is a promise and guarantee to God's own possession (beliebvers) for the day of redemption. Eph 1;13,14.

How in the world do you get around that?

These people were "in Him", then later they were cast into the fire and burned.

Cannot be that, for Eph 1:13,14 shoots that notion right out of the water.

Sealed for the day of redemption, PLUS NO verses that say directly that one's sealing can or will be broken really closes the case, huh.

 

[FreeGrace]

Peter teaches we receive the salvation of our souls at the end of our faith, not the beginning.

Why on earth would you even try to pit Scripture against Scripture? For what purpose?

Jesus tells us exactly WHEN one receives eternal life in Jn 5:24, which totally refutes your notions.

“Truly, truly, I say to you, he who hears My word, and believes Him who sent Me, HAS eternal life, and does not come into judgment, but has passed out of death into life.

What is there about the phrase "HAS eternal life" that isn't completely clear?

Jesus' point: one HAS eternal life WHEN one believes.

 

[FreeGrace]

There's too much in post 336 and it's almost midnight here. But I'd like to answer you tomorrow. I see many flaws in your line of reasoning.

Just for the above:
You're dating someone. Her name is Mary. Mary really loves you and states she'll never leave you.
You love her too. But after about a year or so you start tiring of her. But you still like her a lot. After a while you don't even like her anymore. You decide to stop calling her and you don't accept any calls from her and you refuse to see her anymore. She still really loves you and she'll always be sorry you left her.

You see. SHE didn't leave you but YOU left her. Is the relationship still intact?

Interesting. I also see many flaws in your post.

The prodigal son provides a very clear picture of the believer's RELATIONSHIP with God the Father. AT the beginning of the parable, the son WAS a son. During his time in a far country, the son WAS still a son. When the son came to his senses and returned to his father, he was STILL a son. iow, he was ALWAYS a son. That never changed, even though he was quite willing to be demoted to slave.

This parable makes a lot of points. One is that even when in a far country, a son is a son. The mention of being "dead" refers directly to loss of fellowship, as there was no fellowship between father and SON. He was still a son even in the far country. This is not debatable.

Another point is that God is ALWAYS ready to receive repentant children when they return. The phrase about the son being alive again refers to the regaining of fellowship with the father.

Finally, the parable shows that RELATIONSHIP cannot be broken. But fellowship can.

 

[JLB]

Why on earth would you even try to pit Scripture against Scripture? For what purpose?

Jesus tells us exactly WHEN one receives eternal life in Jn 5:24, which totally refutes your notions.

“Truly, truly, I say to you, he who hears My word, and believes Him who sent Me, HAS eternal life, and does not come into judgment, but has passed out of death into life.

What is there about the phrase "HAS eternal life" that isn't completely clear?

Jesus' point: one HAS eternal life WHEN one believes.

You have to reconcile scripture with scripture.

By denying the biblical definition of faith, as well as what the scriptures actually say, and by avoiding my question, like you have been and are doing now, you are teaching an unbiblical doctrine, that props up your man-made theory that teaches people, it is impossible, absolutely impossible for anyone to lose salvation, even if they turn homosexual, take the mark of the beast, renounce Christ, practice a sinful lifestyle, by lying, and stealing and sexual immorality, or sorcery, and idolatry... Please review the forum guidelines. WIP

Jesus' point: one HAS eternal life WHEN one believes

Jesus point: when one is in Him, and then disconnected from Him, they are gathered up and throw into the fire. John 15:6



Please explain how a person who was in Christ, then was no longer in Christ, and was thrown into the fire and burn, still somehow has eternal life?


JLB

 

[Warrior4Jesus]

Mat 13:21Yet hath he not root in himself, but dureth for a while: for when tribulation or persecution ariseth because of the word, by and by he is offended.

This scripture is what prompted me to come here. I do not want to be this person, that kind of believer.

 

[WIP]

Closed for review.

Okay, I have been forced to remove a number of posts or parts of posts for failing to follow the forum guidelines. This thread has numerous posting from staff requesting that we hold to the forum guidelines. This topic can be very volatile and when we begin to stray from Scripture and post only from our own minds the tendency is to get more and more personal eventually leading the discussion down into a pit.

We need to work to gain understanding and learn from the Truth of Scripture; not try to one-up the other guy/gal to prove we are a better debater. Satan can debate with the best of us and yet that does not mean he speaks the truth.

I don't want to close this thread as I think it is a very good and important topic so let's keep things cool going forward. Thank you.

 

[GodsGrace]

Interesting. I also see many flaws in your post.

The prodigal son provides a very clear picture of the believer's RELATIONSHIP with God the Father. AT the beginning of the parable, the son WAS a son. During his time in a far country, the son WAS still a son. When the son came to his senses and returned to his father, he was STILL a son. iow, he was ALWAYS a son. That never changed, even though he was quite willing to be demoted to slave.

This parable makes a lot of points. One is that even when in a far country, a son is a son. The mention of being "dead" refers directly to loss of fellowship, as there was no fellowship between father and SON. He was still a son even in the far country. This is not debatable.

Another point is that God is ALWAYS ready to receive repentant children when they return. The phrase about the son being alive again refers to the regaining of fellowship with the father.

Finally, the parable shows that RELATIONSHIP cannot be broken. But fellowship can.

The Prodigal Son is probably the most loved parable in the N.T.
The son always remains a son. You're right about that.
We're all sons of God. God made all of us.
Let us make man in our image. Genesis 1:26
In this sense we're all sons of God.

So the Prodigal son leaves. He takes his share which the father gives willingly.
He squanders it. He REPENTS and goes back to the father who is waiting with open arms. Luke 15:20
We're good. The son repents, the father is waiting.
BUT the son does have to return home to be welcomed by the father.
Read Luke 15:32
The father says to the prodigal son's angry brother that they are to rejoice because:
"This brother of yours WAS DEAD and has BEGUN to live, and WAS LOST and has been found."

The father himself says the son was dead. He was the son even before but he became dead after leaving.
The P.S. began to live AFTER returning home again. If he had ALWAYS been "alive" the father would not have needed to say this. The P.S. was LOST and has been found.

What does lost mean?
What if the P.S. had never gone back home?
He might have still been a son but in name only. He had already received all his father had to give him, his share, Luke 15:12, so there would have been nothing else to give him had he not returned home.

equals:

God gave us all He could while we were saved - if we become lost again there will be nothing left to give us as to the saved (heaven).

Could you respond to this instead of just posting a new verse?

An explanation of how you understand this would be interesting.

Wondering

 

[FreeGrace]

The Prodigal Son is probably the most loved parable in the N.T.
The son always remains a son. You're right about that.
We're all sons of God. God made all of us.

I don't believe the parable was given in that sense. I believe the sense was one of permanent relationship, which is expressed throughout Scripture as God the Father and believers are His children.

Let us make man in our image. Genesis 1:26
In this sense we're all sons of God.

And I don't believe the parable was in that sense.

So the Prodigal son leaves. He takes his share which the father gives willingly.
He squanders it. He REPENTS and goes back to the father who is waiting with open arms. Luke 15:20
We're good. The son repents, the father is waiting.
BUT the son does have to return home to be welcomed by the father.
Read Luke 15:32
The father says to the prodigal son's angry brother that they are to rejoice because:
"This brother of yours WAS DEAD and has BEGUN to live, and WAS LOST and has been found."

The father himself says the son was dead. He was the son even before but he became dead after leaving.
The P.S. began to live AFTER returning home again. If he had ALWAYS been "alive" the father would not have needed to say this. The P.S. was LOST and has been found.

Right. The point of the parable is about restoration of fellowship, not relationship. The son broke fellowship by even asking for his inheritance before the father was dead. In that culture, such an action was tantamount to telling your father that you wish he were dead already. Clearly the son broke fellowship. How can one have fellowship with another if the other would rather have you dead.

What does lost mean?

Broken fellowship.

What if the P.S. had never gone back home?

He would have stayed out of fellowship. But he remained his father's son. That never changed. The only thing that changed was fellowship.

1. It was broken when the son left.
2. It was restored when the son confessed and returned to the father.

He might have still been a son but in name only.

This is not true. His DNA never changed after he left. He was always the son. The father was always the father.

Relationship never changed. Only fellowship.

He had already received all his father had to give him, his share, Luke 15:12, so there would have been nothing else to give him had he not returned home.

There was nothing to give him when he was gone anyway. I don't see your point.

equals:

God gave us all He could while we were saved - if we become lost again there will be nothing left to give us as to the saved (heaven).

What is so commonly misunderstood is that what wa lost was fellowship with his father by his leaving. He continued to be the son, but there was zero fellowship.

This parable is not about salvation being lost and found. Otherwise, every time a believer breaks fellowship results in loss of salvation, which is gained by confession and repentance. Where in the Bible is that taught?

We're saved by grace through faith in Christ. Only. And confession restores fellowship, per 1 John 1.

Could you respond to this instead of just posting a new verse?

Doing that now.

An explanation of how you understand this would be interesting.

I hope you found it interesting.

I'm fully aware that my view isn't common at all. But there is nothing I've said about the parable that isn't true.

 

[GodsGrace]

I don't believe the parable was given in that sense. I believe the sense was one of permanent relationship, which is expressed throughout Scripture as God the Father and believers are His children.


And I don't believe the parable was in that sense.


Right. The point of the parable is about restoration of fellowship, not relationship. The son broke fellowship by even asking for his inheritance before the father was dead. In that culture, such an action was tantamount to telling your father that you wish he were dead already. Clearly the son broke fellowship. How can one have fellowship with another if the other would rather have you dead.


Broken fellowship.

He would have stayed out of fellowship. But he remained his father's son. That never changed. The only thing that changed was fellowship.

1. It was broken when the son left.
2. It was restored when the son confessed and returned to the father.


This is not true. His DNA never changed after he left. He was always the son. The father was always the father.

Relationship never changed. Only fellowship.


There was nothing to give him when he was gone anyway. I don't see your point.


What is so commonly misunderstood is that what wa lost was fellowship with his father by his leaving. He continued to be the son, but there was zero fellowship.

This parable is not about salvation being lost and found. Otherwise, every time a believer breaks fellowship results in loss of salvation, which is gained by confession and repentance. Where in the Bible is that taught?

We're saved by grace through faith in Christ. Only. And confession restores fellowship, per 1 John 1.


Doing that now.


I hope you found it interesting.

I'm fully aware that my view isn't common at all. But there is nothing I've said about the parable that isn't true.

Yes. Your reply was interesting. The eternal salvation concept has always been interesting to me because it's easy for me to understand different views; this one I don't understand.

I'd like to make clear that I'm not a works oriented person because I believe in faith and grace, gifts of God, freely given (I like your name) as in Ephesians 2:8

I don't agree with OSAS however. Because God is a good God Psalm 73:1 James 1:17 Mathew 7:11
I hardly think I need scripture for that... But God is also a just God Psalm 98:9 Colossians 3:25
1 Peter 1:17

If God judges, He judges at all times. Not one time only. If we are in Christ, He judges us accordingly - seeing Christ His Son and not us. But if we are not in Christ, God will see us and we are sinful creatures.
John 3:18

You want to call your relationship with God "fellowship". Okay. You could support that with scripture. I don't disagree. But what does having fellowship with God mean? John says that it means to walk in the light with Him. John 1:4 says that life is in Jesus and that life is the light of men. In verse 5 John says that the darkness did not comprehend the light. Verse 9 says that the true light, enlightens every man.

What if we decide not to walk in the light anymore? Is God not a just God then? He judges only once and then is no longer just? Are we not told to persevere until the end? The scriptures are countless. Just some:
Galatians 6:1
We are to restore a brother caught in trespass. Why if we're saved anyway?
What about Galatians 6:7
God cannot be deceived - (because He is just)
Whatever a man sows he will also reap.
Galatians 6:8
The one who sows to his own flesh will reap corruption, but he who sows to the Spirit will reap eternal life.

Remember that Paul was speaking to the Christians in Galatia. This clearly shows one could lose eternal life. They could reap corruption or eternal life and he's speaking to the "brethren" as the beginning of Galatians 6 states.

And in His own words, Jesus has much to say in Mathew 24:10
"in that time many will FALL AWAY" Can it be more clear?

Mathew 24:13
"But the one who endures till the end will be saved".
So if you don't endure till the end, you will not be saved.

What do you think of all these passages that speak about enduring till the end?
If we're told so many times to endure, it must be important.

Wondering

 

[FreeGrace]

Yes. Your reply was interesting. The eternal salvation concept has always been interesting to me because it's easy for me to understand different views; this one I don't understand.

I'd like to make clear that I'm not a works oriented person because I believe in faith and grace, gifts of God, freely given (I like your name) as in Ephesians 2:8

I believe the key to understanding eternal security lies in rightfully understanding grace. We do not deserve salvation, nor can we earn it. And since Christ died for all our sins, all we can do is receive it. And there aren't any verses that say that we can "give it away", or "give it back" or any other such wording.

I don't agree with OSAS however. Because God is a good God Psalm 73:1 James 1:17 Mathew 7:11
I hardly think I need scripture for that... But God is also a just God Psalm 98:9 Colossians 3:25
1 Peter 1:17

I would think that 'because God is a good God', that would support eternal security.

As to God's justice, Christ took our place on the cross, and bore our sins. Again, because of grace. We didn't deserve it nor do we earn it. That's grace.

If God judges, He judges at all times. Not one time only.

There are degrees and kinds of judgment. It's not all the same. Unbelievers are judged at the Great White Throne in Rev 22. Believers are judged at the Judgment Seat of Christ in 2 Cor 5. Both are based on the person's deeds. But the believer already has eternal life and his judgment relates to whether he/she will receive reward IN heaven, not getting INTO heaven.

The unbeliever's judgment based on deeds (Rev 20) will determine how "tolerable" it will be in the lake of fire, since Jesus made the point about it being "more tolerable" for those from Sodom and Gomorrah than current cities in His day.

Eternal life is based solely on whether one has believed in Jesus Christ for salvation.

If we are in Christ, He judges us accordingly - seeing Christ His Son and not us. But if we are not in Christ, God will see us and we are sinful creatures. John 3:18

Those not in Christ are unbelievers. Only believers are in Christ per Eph 1:13.

You want to call your relationship with God "fellowship". Okay. You could support that with scripture.

Which is why I do.

I don't disagree. But what does having fellowship with God mean? John says that it means to walk in the light with Him. John 1:4 says that life is in Jesus and that life is the light of men. In verse 5 John says that the darkness did not comprehend the light. Verse 9 says that the true light, enlightens every man.

Fellowship is HOW the believer is able to function as he was designed to function. Living in the power of the Holy Spirit.

Recall Paul's commands:
be filled with the Spirit - Eph 5:18
walk by means of the Spirit - Gal 5:16
STOP grieving the Spirit - Eph 4:30
STOP quenching the Spirit - 1 Thess 5:19

This is the issue in spiritual growth. We grow ONLY when we follow the first 2. And we cannot grow when we don't stop doing the last 2.

What if we decide not to walk in the light anymore?

We lose fellowship with God. We're out of fellowship, not at all different than the prodigal son in the pig sty. He was a son, but certainly not enjoying fellowship with his father. Only when he returned did he have fellowship again with his father.

Is God not a just God then? He judges only once and then is no longer just?

God's justice was satisfied at the cross. For salvation. Beyond that, God does have the right to discipline His children, which is taught in Heb 12. In fact, His discipline can be so severe as to even include loss of physical life, which is seen in many examples throughout Scripture.

Are we not told to persevere until the end? The scriptures are countless. Just some:
Galatians 6:1
We are to restore a brother caught in trespass. Why if we're saved anyway?

Restoring FELLOWSHIP.

What about Galatians 6:7
God cannot be deceived - (because He is just)
Whatever a man sows he will also reap.

All in the sense of discipline, no different than any good father will do with his disobedient children.

Galatians 6:8
The one who sows to his own flesh will reap corruption, but he who sows to the Spirit will reap eternal life.

This must be understood in light of all the other verses about how eternal life is received, which is through faith. The key here is found in the word "reap", which connotes earning by effort. iow, to reap a harvest requires a lot of work.

Remember that Paul was speaking to the Christians in Galatia. This clearly shows one could lose eternal life.

I see nothing so "clear". Could you direct me to a specific verse that says that we can lose eternal life?

However, Paul wrote that God's gifts are irrevocable in Rom 11:29. And he had already decribed both justification (Rom 5:15,16,17) and eternal life (Rom 6:23) as gifts of God. So eternal life is an irrevocable gift. I do not see this as debatable.

They could reap corruption or eternal life and he's speaking to the "brethren" as the beginning of Galatians 6 states.

The "reaping" refers to rewards, which is gained by works, not faith. Faith results in eternal life.

And in His own words, Jesus has much to say in Mathew 24:10
"in that time many will FALL AWAY" Can it be more clear?

Don't forget Luke 8:13. However, nowhere in Scripture do we read anything about falling away referring to losing salvation. That is always the assumption that accompanies the phrase.

Mathew 24:13
"But the one who endures till the end will be saved".
So if you don't endure till the end, you will not be saved.

Context determines specific word meaning. The context here is about the 7 year Tribulation period. This is not a general verse that applies to anytime. And the meaning of 'saved' here refers to physical deliverance, not eternal salvation.

What do you think of all these passages that speak about enduring till the end?
If we're told so many times to endure, it must be important.
Wondering

Of course believers are supposed to endure.

Paul was real clear about it in 2 Tim 2:12
If we endure, we will also reign with Him; If we deny Him, He also will deny us;

To 'reign with Him' doesn't refer to salvation, but the reward IN heaven for being faithful (enduring).

But look at the flip side: if we don't endure (by denying Him, as Peter did 3 times) we will be denied reigning with Him IN Heaven.

I think v.13 nails it.
If we are faithless, He remains faithful, for He cannot deny Himself.

Even those who are faithless (and Paul made it personal by the use of the first person pronoun "we") will not be denied heaven. Why? Because every believer has been sealed with the Holy Spirit of promise (God cannot lie, meaning He cannot break His promises), which is a guarantee to God's own possession for the day of redemption. Eph 1:13,14

iow, believers are sealed as a promise from God for the day of redemption.

I think those verses are very clear about eternal security.

There are no such clear verses about loss of salvation or eternal life. Only lots of assumptions about what certain verses "must" mean to some.

 

[GodsGrace]

I believe the key to understanding eternal security lies in rightfully understanding grace. We do not deserve salvation, nor can we earn it. And since Christ died for all our sins, all we can do is receive it. And there aren't any verses that say that we can "give it away", or "give it back" or any other such wording.

I would think that 'because God is a good God', that would support eternal security.

As to God's justice, Christ took our place on the cross, and bore our sins. Again, because of grace. We didn't deserve it nor do we earn it. That's grace.

There are degrees and kinds of judgment. It's not all the same. Unbelievers are judged at the Great White Throne in Rev 22. Believers are judged at the Judgment Seat of Christ in 2 Cor 5. Both are based on the person's deeds. But the believer already has eternal life and his judgment relates to whether he/she will receive reward IN heaven, not getting INTO heaven.

The unbeliever's judgment based on deeds (Rev 20) will determine how "tolerable" it will be in the lake of fire, since Jesus made the point about it being "more tolerable" for those from Sodom and Gomorrah than current cities in His day.

Eternal life is based solely on whether one has believed in Jesus Christ for salvation.

Those not in Christ are unbelievers. Only believers are in Christ per Eph 1:13.

Which is why I do.

Fellowship is HOW the believer is able to function as he was designed to function. Living in the power of the Holy Spirit.

Recall Paul's commands:
be filled with the Spirit - Eph 5:18
walk by means of the Spirit - Gal 5:16
STOP grieving the Spirit - Eph 4:30
STOP quenching the Spirit - 1 Thess 5:19

This is the issue in spiritual growth. We grow ONLY when we follow the first 2. And we cannot grow when we don't stop doing the last 2.

We lose fellowship with God. We're out of fellowship, not at all different than the prodigal son in the pig sty. He was a son, but certainly not enjoying fellowship with his father. Only when he returned did he have fellowship again with his father.

God's justice was satisfied at the cross. For salvation. Beyond that, God does have the right to discipline His children, which is taught in Heb 12. In fact, His discipline can be so severe as to even include loss of physical life, which is seen in many examples throughout Scripture.

Restoring FELLOWSHIP.

All in the sense of discipline, no different than any good father will do with his disobedient children.

This must be understood in light of all the other verses about how eternal life is received, which is through faith. The key here is found in the word "reap", which connotes earning by effort. iow, to reap a harvest requires a lot of work.

I see nothing so "clear". Could you direct me to a specific verse that says that we can lose eternal life?

However, Paul wrote that God's gifts are irrevocable in Rom 11:29. And he had already decribed both justification (Rom 5:15,16,17) and eternal life (Rom 6:23) as gifts of God. So eternal life is an irrevocable gift. I do not see this as debatable.

The "reaping" refers to rewards, which is gained by works, not faith. Faith results in eternal life.

Don't forget Luke 8:13. However, nowhere in Scripture do we read anything about falling away referring to losing salvation. That is always the assumption that accompanies the phrase.

Context determines specific word meaning. The context here is about the 7 year Tribulation period. This is not a general verse that applies to anytime. And the meaning of 'saved' here refers to physical deliverance, not eternal salvation.

Of course believers are supposed to endure.

Paul was real clear about it in 2 Tim 2:12
If we endure, we will also reign with Him; If we deny Him, He also will deny us;

To 'reign with Him' doesn't refer to salvation, but the reward IN heaven for being faithful (enduring).

But look at the flip side: if we don't endure (by denying Him, as Peter did 3 times) we will be denied reigning with Him IN Heaven.

I think v.13 nails it.
If we are faithless, He remains faithful, for He cannot deny Himself.

Even those who are faithless (and Paul made it personal by the use of the first person pronoun "we") will not be denied heaven. Why? Because every believer has been sealed with the Holy Spirit of promise (God cannot lie, meaning He cannot break His promises), which is a guarantee to God's own possession for the day of redemption. Eph 1:13,14

iow, believers are sealed as a promise from God for the day of redemption.

I think those verses are very clear about eternal security.

There are no such clear verses about loss of salvation or eternal life. Only lots of assumptions about what certain verses "must" mean to some.

Hi FreeGrace,
Sorry but the quote feature just takes too long.
You know there are some doctrines that so go against the Christian concept and what God wants for us that I have difficulty in understanding how it could be misunderstood. Of course, I think YOU are midundersanding!

I agree with everything you've said regarding Jesus paying for our sins and everything else you've said regarding salvation. But it's regarding salvation - how does this automatically mean you have it forever?

You've thought this over well and know the bible well. Have you ever noticed a bit of a disconnect between what Jesus taught and what Paul taught? I've been a christian for 40 years and are just coming to notice this difference. Paul made all of the theology of christianity known in his writings - especially Romans. He put forth all the salvation theology which you state above. Not Jesus. Jesus, OTOH, taught how we were to behave to be saved.

Take Mathew 5, the beatitudes. This is how one in the kingdom is expected to behave. What if we stop behaving this way? Why make a whole sermon if He didn't really mean it because if we decided we didn't want to be like this, we'd be saved anyway? Why preach anythnig except to BELIEVE. I'm not going to repeat again what "believe" means in Greek. You're intelligent and I think you know. So, what if I stop believing? Jesus went through 3 years of preaching and ended up dying to show us how to be saved. He could have just said "believe what I say and you'll be okay." This is not what He did.

Take the adultress woman. In John 8:11 Jesus says to her "Neither do I condemn you...From now on sin no more." There is always that admonition to sin no more. What if she had continued to sin? So Jesus saves us (Paul's theology) and He'll always cover for our sins - as long as we WANT that cover.

I'm saying that if we don't WANT it God will not force it upon us. Where's our free will if you're correct? What I I WILL not to be saved? People in hell are there because they want to be there, not because God wanted to send them there.

What about the biggie: John 3:16 WHOSOEVER BELIEVETH. You must believe (there's that word again) and you must continue in your belief. I could choose to stop believing (I'm not speaking of having doubt).
Jesus said the word IF many times:

END OF ONE

 

[GodsGrace]

TWO For FreeGrace


John 8:31 "IF you ABIDE in My word, THEN you are disciples of Mine."
IF ABIDE THEN

Jesus came to fulfill the Law. To satisfy it. Not to abolish it.
Mathew 5:17-18
It says that He has not come to abolish the Law but to fulfill
For TRULY (to bring importance to what He's going to say) I say to you until heaven and earth pass away not the smallest letter or stroke shall pass from the Law.

Jesus does seem to go more for performance and Paul does seem to go more for the "covering" we're to have in the Lord. What if we desire to leave that "covering"? Will God FORCE us to be with Him in heaven even if we change our minds and don't want to be with Him? Isn't the whole idea in the bible that we have a choice? Deuteronomy 30:15 I have set before you this day life and death and verse 18 says that if we don't choose properly we will perish. "Choose this day whom you will serve" Joshua 24:14. It cannot be disputed that there is a choice to be made and if we have free will that choice must be ongoing.

Galatians 5 speaks to the flesh and how the spirit saves us from the Law. But to be saved from the Law we MUST BE in the spirit. How are we in the spirit if we've decided to abandon our Lord and return to our unbelief? Galatians 5:19-21 . Those who practice immorality, idolatry, jealousy, drunkeness, etc. shall NOT inherit the Kingdom of God. So I could do all this since I no longer BELIEVE in Jesus and His teachings, and STILL inherit the Kingdom? It clearly says you cannot.

You say that UNBELIEVERS will be judged at the great white throne jdugment. Okay. And WHO are these unbelievers? Those who don't believe in Jesus' teachings, those who are not His disciples, at the time of their death. Think of it. I can accept Jesus as Lord and Savior when I'm 17. Turn away from Him at 25, live the rest of my life as one as in Galatians 5:19 and then go before God blameless without Jesus' cover?

Yes. God took our place on the cross. FOR WHOSOEVER BELIEVETH... that seems to be the critical question here: Do I Believe??

(at the Seat of Christ it is our deeds - it's for believers - no problem)

You say those not in Christ are unbelievers - only believers are in Christ.
RIGHT! But you must be a believer to be in Christ. Maybe this word "believe" needs to be better understood by you? I'm not saying you don't understand it, but couple that together with your free choice to believe.

You say the believer is able to function as he was designed to function - in the power of the H.S.
Again, I agree but you have to be a Believer.

Then you give me Paul's commands with scripture:
Be filled with the spirit
walk by means of the spirit
Stop grieving the H.s.
Stop quenching the Spirit

So is someone who has decided to leave belief in Jesus doing the above? No. And, he's telling this to christians! So it must be pretty important. Why bring this type of "commands" up at all if we're eternally saved once we accept Jesus?? Paul could have just said "accept the Lord and then go on your merry way with no further thought to pleasing Him because you're saved no matter what". Think of how much shorter the N.T. would have been!

Re your "son" idea. Are you a mom/dad? I am. If my son kept mistreating me, giving me grief, stealing money from me, beating me up, etc. AND he was an adult and knew what he was doing - by golly, I think I'd kick him out! He'd still be my son, but in name only as I've said, and NOT in love or in inheritance. Better to leave all to my daughter who treats me well. What say you?

You want a specific verse that says we can lose eternal life. Wasn't Galatians 6:8 good?
The flesh reaps corruption (loss, damnation) the spirit reaps eternal life. To have eternal life we must be in the spirit, to be in the spirit we must be following Jesus, if we abandon Jesus we are no longer following Him.

You bring up Romans 11:29, the gift of God being irrevocable. It sends me to Hebrews 7:21 which is the New Covenant. Maybe we could get into that. The New Covenant has a condition. It's too much for right now. It's a gift and a big one. It's God's plan from the beginning. But it is a conditional covenant. Which is another reason why I can't accept OSAS. You must remain in the covenant and adhere to that condition. The condition, really quick, is ACCEPTANCE. You must accept it to be in it.

I understand loss of salvation, you understand disciplining. it could be both. When scripture speaks to discipline it clearly states it. Hebrews 12:5

You say the sowing refers to rewards and faith results in eternal life. What if I no longer have faith? Jesus will never leave us, no scripture necessary - but we could leave Him. It only takes one leaving to ruin relationship and fellowship.

You say that Mathew 24:13 is referring to the tribulation. Okay. But what exactly does it mean then?
Take it in context as you say it should. The trib comes. We DON'T endure, we're NOT saved.
Saved from what? Endure what? We're to endure ALL to be saved from the wrath of God. Mark 4:17 speaks of falling away.

in 2 Timothy 2:12 which you cite you say reign means reward. Okay. But it also says that if we deny Him, he will deny us. But if we are faithless, He will remain faithful for He cannot deny Himself.
But Paul just said Jesus WOULD deny us? Is this a dichotomy? No. Paul is not contradicting himself in two sentences right next to each other. Jesus can deny us before God ("this person is not mine") but Jesus will remain faithful. To what? To HIS plan of salvation. He is faithful to HIMSELF because He cannot deny Himself. He cannot deny that He is salvation.
Here is Young's Literal Translation which makes this clear:
"if we do endure together, we shall reign together, if we deny Him, he also shall deny us, if we are not steadfast, he remaineth steadfast, to deny himself he is not able."
Jesus will remain steadfast in His mission to save and reign, even if we do not endure and fall away.

You've brought up the seal of the H.S. No more time for now.

There's a lot here. It's for your consideration - I doubt we're going to change each other's minds. I've tried to answer your points.

Could you, though, reply to this:

Peter 2:15-22
It's speaking of people who knew Jesus verse 15-20
After they have escaped the world by knowledge of the Lord...
they are AGAIN entangled in them and are overcome
21 for it would have been better for them not to have known the way of righteousness**... than to turn from the holy commandment**
22 it has happened to them: "a dog returns to his vomit"...

** See Ezekiel 18:24

Remember that God is the same yesterday, today and tomorrow
And Jesus said he has not come to abolish the Law...

Wondering

 

[FreeGrace]

Hi FreeGrace,
Sorry but the quote feature just takes too long.
You know there are some doctrines that so go against the Christian concept and what God wants for us that I have difficulty in understanding how it could be misunderstood. Of course, I think YOU are midundersanding!

I agree with everything you've said regarding Jesus paying for our sins and everything else you've said regarding salvation. But it's regarding salvation - how does this automatically mean you have it forever?

It is automatic because of God's promise.

Paul clearly taught eternal security in these verses:

Eph 1:13,14 - 13InHim, you also, after listening to the message of truth, the gospel of your salvation—having also believed, you were sealed in Him with the Holy Spirit of promise, 14who is given as a pledge of our inheritance, with a view to the redemption of God’s own possession, to the praise of His glory.

Eph 4:30 - Do not grieve the Holy Spirit of God, by whom you were sealed for the day of redemption.

2 Cor 1:22 - who also sealed us and gave us the Spirit in our hearts as a pledge.

2 Cor 5:5 - Now He who prepared us for this very purpose is God, who gave to us the Spirit as a pledge.

So, what has Paul taught here?

First, having believed, we are SEALED IN HIM (union with Christ) with the Holy Spirit of PROMISE, given as a PLEDGE FOR the day of redemption of God's own possession. This seal is a PLEDGE from God.

And consider this verse:

Heb 6:18 - so that by two unchangeable things in which it is impossible for God to lie, we who have taken refuge would have strong encouragement to take hold of the hope set before us.

So, for one to accept your view of loss of salvation, 2 things are required:

1. Either prove by exegesis that Eph 1:13,14 4:30, 2 Cor 1:22 and 5:5 do NOT teach eternal security, or
2. Accept that God DOES break His promises and pledges, which makes Him a liar. Even though Scripture SAYS that it is impossible for God to lie. Titus 1:2 and Heb 6:18

You've thought this over well and know the bible well. Have you ever noticed a bit of a disconnect between what Jesus taught and what Paul taught?

Not ever. If that were true, then the Bible is contradicted and God isn't God.

I've been a christian for 40 years and are just coming to notice this difference. Paul made all of the theology of christianity known in his writings - especially Romans. He put forth all the salvation theology which you state above. Not Jesus. Jesus, OTOH, taught how we were to behave to be saved.

Well, we certainly disagree here. Paul taught that we have the "mind of Christ" in 1 Cor 2:16, meaning, of course, the written Word of God. Just as Jesus is the Living Word of God.

Take Mathew 5, the beatitudes. This is how one in the kingdom is expected to behave. What if we stop behaving this way?

Yes, Jesus did emphasize how we are expected to live. And when a child of God stops behaving, he faces God's hand of discipline, which can include physical death. Heb 12:5 describes His discipline as being "scourged with a whip", which in the day that was written, everyone understood Roman scourging, which was basically being skinned alive with a whip. Not very pretty.

Why make a whole sermon if He didn't really mean it because if we decided we didn't want to be like this, we'd be saved anyway? Why preach anythnig except to BELIEVE.

Because there are consequences for those who do not behave.

I'm not going to repeat again what "believe" means in Greek. You're intelligent and I think you know. So, what if I stop believing? Jesus went through 3 years of preaching and ended up dying to show us how to be saved. He could have just said "believe what I say and you'll be okay." This is not what He did.

Actually, He did. Consider John 3:15,16,18, 5:24, 6:40, 47, 11:25-27.

Here is what John the baptizer said: Jn 3:36 - “He who believes in the Son has eternal life; but he who does not obey the Son will not see life, but the wrath of God abides on him.”

The Greek word for "not obey" is apietho and in my lexicon can mean to "disbelieve".

And John the disciple said this, in summary of his gospel: but these have been written so that you may believe that Jesus is the Christ, the Son of God; and that believing you may have life in His name.

Take the adultress woman. In John 8:11 Jesus says to her "Neither do I condemn you...From now on sin no more." There is always that admonition to sin no more. What if she had continued to sin? So Jesus saves us (Paul's theology) and He'll always cover for our sins - as long as we WANT that cover.

This passage is not found in any of the earliest and most reliable manuscripts. It only showed up in later manuscripts so isn't actually part of the original autograph. Same for Mark 16:9-20.

I'm saying that if we don't WANT it God will not force it upon us.

Here's the problem. How many kids have NOT wanted their parents. But guess what. Tough bite. The relationship between birth parent and child is PERMANENT, and there is no reason at all to assume that the spiritual relationship between God and His born again children are any less permanent.

Where's our free will if you're correct?

You're free to rebel. But I recommend that you duck.

What I I WILL not to be saved?

Doesn't matter. Same as for your birth parents. That cannot be changed.

People in hell are there because they want to be there, not because God wanted to send them there.

That's not true. Many people have been deceived. Yes, there is no excuse for it, but many did NOT choose to be there. Jesus even told us a story about a rich man who ended up in torments and wanted Lazarus to return to his 5 brothers so they wouldn't end up there.

What about the biggie: John 3:16 WHOSOEVER BELIEVETH. You must believe (there's that word again) and you must continue in your belief. I could choose to stop believing (I'm not speaking of having doubt).

There are no verses that teach that one must continue to believe in order to either be saved or to remain saved.

In fact, Paul used the aorist tense in his answer to the jailer who asked him what he MUST DO to be saved. The answer was to believe in the Lord Jesus and you will be saved.

The aorist tense refers to a point in time. Not continuous action.

Jesus said the word IF many times:
END OF ONE

Yes, there are consequences for God's conditions.

But the ONLY condition for salvation is to believe in Christ.

 

[JLB]

Everyone who reads this thread knows better than that, as you too.

Everyone who reads this thread, knows that you have redefined words to mean something other than their original meaning, so as to prop up your man made doctrine.

Example:

Inherit the kingdom.

Without even going to the scripture, where Jesus established the meaning of this phrase, anyone can see that inherit the kingdom of God, means just that, you are granted access to the kingdom of God.

If someone inherits an estate from someone, their now have access to that estate, if someone does not inherit that estate, then they do not have access to that estate.

Likewise Jesus defined for us and His disciples, exactly what inherit the kingdom means.

31 “When the Son of Man comes in His glory, and all the holy angels with Him, then He will sit on the throne of His glory. 32 All the nations will be gathered before Him, and He will separate them one from another, as a shepherd divides his sheep from the goats. 33 And He will set the sheep on His right hand, but the goats on the left. 34 Then the King will say to those on His right hand, ‘Come, you blessed of My Father, inherit the kingdom prepared for you from the foundation of the world: Matthew 25:31-34


To those who do not inherit the kingdom, he said this:

“Then He will also say to those on the left hand, ‘Depart from Me, you cursed, into the everlasting fire prepared for the devil and his angels: Matthew 25:41


Then again to some up the outcome of the two groups of His servants, that were standing before Him on that Day, He says:

And these will go away into everlasting punishment, but the righteous into eternal life.” Matthew 25:41


Now when Paul warns the church at Galatia, using the same phrase, you claim it somehow has a "different" meaning.


19 Now the works of the flesh are evident, which are: adultery, fornication, uncleanness, lewdness, 20 idolatry, sorcery, hatred, contentions, jealousies, outbursts of wrath, selfish ambitions, dissensions, heresies, 21 envy, murders,drunkenness, revelries, and the like; of which I tell you beforehand, just as I also told you in time past, that those who practice such things will not inherit the kingdom of God.
Galatians 5:19-21


and again


9 Do you not know that the unrighteous will not inherit the kingdom of God? Do not be deceived. Neither fornicators, nor idolaters, nor adulterers, nor homosexuals, nor sodomites, 10 nor thieves, nor covetous, nor drunkards, nor revilers, nor extortioners will inherit the kingdom of God. 1 Corinthians 6:9-11

• Inherit the Kingdom = Welcome into God's Kingdom on the Day of Judgement.

• Do not inherit the Kingdom of God = ‘Depart from Me, you cursed, into the everlasting fire prepared for the devil and his angels: Matthew 25:41

It means the same thing when Jesus said it, as when Paul said it.


You on the other hand are forced to change the meaning of this phrase, and "redefine" it, to mean "something else", other than what Jesus defined it's meaning to be, otherwise OSAS, crumbles under the weight of this Truth.





JLB

 

[FreeGrace]

John 8:31 "IF you ABIDE in My word, THEN you are disciples of Mine."
IF ABIDE THEN

To abide means to have fellowship, not relationship. Which the difference I've already explained.

Jesus came to fulfill the Law. To satisfy it. Not to abolish it.
Mathew 5:17-18
It says that He has not come to abolish the Law but to fulfill
For TRULY (to bring importance to what He's going to say) I say to you until heaven and earth pass away not the smallest letter or stroke shall pass from the Law.

Not sure how this applies to any discussion about eternal security.

Jesus does seem to go more for performance and Paul does seem to go more for the "covering" we're to have in the Lord.

Not true. Paul himself said to imitate him while he imitates Christ. 1 Cor 4:16

What if we desire to leave that "covering"?

You cannot any more leave the RELATIONSHIP of your birth parents than you can the spiritual relationship of God.

What you can leave, a the prodigal son did, was leave fellowship.

Will God FORCE us to be with Him in heaven even if we change our minds and don't want to be with Him?

It won't be forced. When believers enter eternity, they will surely realize the alternative and be VERY GLAD that God always keeps His promise, even towards His wayward children.

Isn't the whole idea in the bible that we have a choice?

It does not apply to whether one wants to keep their salvation. If you think it does, please provide a verse or two that actually teaches that.

The choice we have is whether to trust in Christ for eternal life. And once one does that, they HAVE eternal life, a gift of God (Rom 6:23) that is irrevocable (Rom 11:29).

Deuteronomy 30:15 I have set before you this day life and death and verse 18 says that if we don't choose properly we will perish. "Choose this day whom you will serve" Joshua 24:14. It cannot be disputed that there is a choice to be made and if we have free will that choice must be ongoing.

The choices in Deut 30 are about blessing and cursing. Life and death. Physically. When taken in whole with the rest of Scripture, these verses cannot refer to loss of eternal life.

Galatians 5 speaks to the flesh and how the spirit saves us from the Law. But to be saved from the Law we MUST BE in the spirit. How are we in the spirit if we've decided to abandon our Lord and return to our unbelief?

Jesus promised the Holy Spirit to every believer who wouldn't ever leave them (Jn 14:16). That's a promise. Do you believe that Jesus ever lied? I don't.

Galatians 5:19-21 . Those who practice immorality, idolatry, jealousy, drunkeness, etc. shall NOT inherit the Kingdom of God. So I could do all this since I no longer BELIEVE in Jesus and His teachings, and STILL inherit the Kingdom? It clearly says you cannot.

The concept of "inheriting the kingdom" is taught in 3 places in the NT. Here, and in Eph 5 and 1 Cor 6. In Eph, it's mentioned as not having an inheritance IN the kingdom.

Eph 5:5 - For this you know with certainty, that no immoral or impure person or covetous man, who is an idolater, has an inheritance in the kingdom of Christ and God.

So the phrase "shall not inherit the kingdom" is parallel to "has no inheritance IN the kingdom". All 3 passages are parallel. It's about loss of reward IN the kingdom. Not about not getting into the kingdom.

You say that UNBELIEVERS will be judged at the great white throne jdugment. Okay. And WHO are these unbelievers?

Those who never believed and never received eternal life.

Those who don't believe in Jesus' teachings, those who are not His disciples, at the time of their death.

No. Such thinking creates a huge contradiction in Scripture, which I reject. The promise of eternal life is irrevocable as I've shown. There's no way around that.

Think of it. I can accept Jesus as Lord and Savior when I'm 17. Turn away from Him at 25, live the rest of my life as one as in Galatians 5:19 and then go before God blameless without Jesus' cover?

No, who ever said you'd be blameless? You wouldn't be. You'd have lost ALL inheritance in the kingdom. There would be no reward for you in the kingdom. But because you had the free irrevocable gift of eternal life, you still get INTO the kingdom.

Yes. God took our place on the cross. FOR WHOSOEVER BELIEVETH... that seems to be the critical question here: Do I Believe??

OK. But once you believe, God changes you. You become His child. You have His life, eternal life. And it's irrevocable.

(at the Seat of Christ it is our deeds - it's for believers - no problem)

And our deeds will determine whether we receive rewards or not.

You say those not in Christ are unbelievers - only believers are in Christ.

Actually, the Bible says that. I only point out what the Bible says.

Eph 1:13,14 -
13 In Him, you also, after listening to the message of truth, the gospel of your salvation—having also believed, you were sealed in Him with the Holy Spirit of promise,

iow, those who believer ARE sealed with the Holy Spirit

14 who is given as a pledge of our inheritance, with a view to the redemption of God’s own possession, to the praise of His glory.

The sealing with the Holy Spirit is a promise (pledge) with a view to the redemption of God's own possession (His children).

The inheritance here is that of parent to child. All of God's children WILL go to heaven. That's inheritance in that sense. But there's another sense of inheritance that we have to earn.

Rom 8:17 - and if children, heirs also, heirs of God and fellow heirs with Christ, if indeed we suffer with Him so that we may also be glorified with Him.

There are 2 inheritances in this verse. The first one is being an heir of God as His children. But the second inheritance is conditioned on obedience to the point of suffering for Him. That's what "fellow heirs" means. Or co-heirs.

RIGHT! But you must be a believer to be in Christ. Maybe this word "believe" needs to be better understood by you? I'm not saying you don't understand it, but couple that together with your free choice to believe.

Not following. Please clarify.

You say the believer is able to function as he was designed to function - in the power of the H.S.
Again, I agree but you have to be a Believer.

No question.

Then you give me Paul's commands with scripture:
Be filled with the spirit
walk by means of the spirit
Stop grieving the H.s.
Stop quenching the Spirit

So is someone who has decided to leave belief in Jesus doing the above? No.

Actually, they ARE grieving and quenching the Holy Spirit.

And, he's telling this to christians! So it must be pretty important.

Certainly.

Why bring this type of "commands" up at all if we're eternally saved once we accept Jesus??

Simple. Do you want to be blessed and rewarded by God, or would you rather have your butt kicked around by God in discipline for the rest of your life?

People are motivated in several ways. Some are motivated by being rewarded, and some are rewarded by avoidance of pain. Take your pick.

 

[FreeGrace]

for Wondering; second half of your post:

Paul could have just said "accept the Lord and then go on your merry way with no further thought to pleasing Him because you're saved no matter what". Think of how much shorter the N.T. would have been!

But how stupid that would have been. Then no one would know about all the wonderful blessings and rewards that are available for those who stay faithful and obedient to God.

Re your "son" idea. Are you a mom/dad? I am. If my son kept mistreating me, giving me grief, stealing money from me, beating me up, etc. AND he was an adult and knew what he was doing - by golly, I think I'd kick him out! He'd still be my son, but in name only as I've said, and NOT in love or in inheritance. Better to leave all to my daughter who treats me well. What say you?

Again, simple. Regardless of what ever he does or you do, the simple fact is that your DNA continues to reside IN him (parallel concept regarding the indwelling Holy Spirit in God's children). That RELATIONSHIP cannot be changed. Not negotiable.

What can change is the fellowship between you 2. And in your scenario, there would be no fellowship.

You want a specific verse that says we can lose eternal life. Wasn't Galatians 6:8 good?[/QUOT]
No. It said nothing about eternal life being lost. It takes a lot of assumption to think it is about that.

If it did mean that eternal life can be lost, then the Bible is contradictory and we all might as well just go home and live it up. The Bible tells us that God's gifts, which include eternal life, are irrevocable. Rom 6:23 and Rom 11:29.

The flesh reaps corruption (loss, damnation) the spirit reaps eternal life.

Having eternal life and "reaping" eternal life are not the same thing. The concept of "reaping" involves effort. To reap eternal life is to have more than just eternal life.

Jesus taught the same principle in Rom 10:10 - “The thief comes only to steal and kill and destroy; I came that they may have life, and have it abundantly.

iow, Jesus promises more than just "having life". He promises having life abundantly. The difference between having eternal life and reaping eternal life. In every verses that speaks of reaping eternal life, it is based on performance.

But having eternal life is NEVER portrayed that way. It's received on the basis of faith only.

To have eternal life we must be in the spirit, to be in the spirit we must be following Jesus, if we abandon Jesus we are no longer following Him.

Could you provide some verses that support your claims. Only believers can be "in the Spirit". So not sure what you are saying here.

You bring up Romans 11:29, the gift of God being irrevocable. It sends me to Hebrews 7:21 which is the New Covenant. Maybe we could get into that. The New Covenant has a condition. It's too much for right now. It's a gift and a big one. It's God's plan from the beginning. But it is a conditional covenant.

Here's the verse: (for they indeedbecame priests without an oath, but He with an oath through the One who said to Him, “The Lord has sworn And will not change His mind, ‘You are a priest forever’”);

I don't see how this verse has any relevance to your comment. The verse is about Jesus as our High Priest. It's certainly not about loss of salvation.

Which is another reason why I can't accept OSAS.

What does Heb 7:21 have to do with OSAS?

You must remain in the covenant and adhere to that condition. The condition, really quick, is ACCEPTANCE. You must accept it to be in it.

Here's the deal. Once one accepts it, they remain in it. Remember, God's gifts are irrevocable, and that includes what Paul described as a gift of God, which is eternal life.

I understand loss of salvation, you understand disciplining. it could be both. When scripture speaks to discipline it clearly states it. Hebrews 12:5

There is nothing in any passage anywhere that speaks of loss of salvation.

You say the sowing refers to rewards and faith results in eternal life. What if I no longer have faith?

You will then lose blessings and reward. But eternal life is a gift of God that is irrevocable.

Jesus will never leave us, no scripture necessary - but we could leave Him. It only takes one leaving to ruin relationship and fellowship.

As I've shown, just as one CANNOT severe the physical birth parent-child RELATIONSHIP, the only thing that can be severed is FELLOWSHIP, which has NO BEARING on our salvation. If it did, there'd be a verse or two on that.

And they would have all been shoved down my throat by now. But I'm not even close to choking.

You say that Mathew 24:13 is referring to the tribulation. Okay. But what exactly does it mean then?

To be physically delivered from all the dangers during the Tribulation.

Take it in context as you say it should. The trib comes. We DON'T endure, we're NOT saved.

Right. Not saved from the perils and dangers of the Tribulation. I believe unfaithful and disobedient believers will suffer and physically die during the Tribulation. As part of their discipline for their behavior.

Saved from what? Endure what? We're to endure ALL to be saved from the wrath of God.

Exactly. Saved from God's wrath. Which, during the Tribulation is physical suffering and physical death. None of which will be pleasant.

Mark 4:17 speaks of falling away.

And?

in 2 Timothy 2:12 which you cite you say reign means reward. Okay. But it also says that if we deny Him, he will deny us. But if we are faithless, He will remain faithful for He cannot deny Himself.
But Paul just said Jesus WOULD deny us? Is this a dichotomy? No. Paul is not contradicting himself in two sentences right next to each other. Jesus can deny us before God ("this person is not mine") but Jesus will remain faithful. To what? To HIS plan of salvation. He is faithful to HIMSELF because He cannot deny Himself. He cannot deny that He is salvation.

I believe you've twisted what Paul actually said. And I explained what the verses mean. People are free to believe what they want.

Here is Young's Literal Translation which makes this clear:
"if we do endure together, we shall reign together, if we deny Him, he also shall deny us, if we are not steadfast, he remaineth steadfast, to deny himself he is not able." Jesus will remain steadfast in His mission to save and reign, even if we do not endure and fall away.

How come your acknowledgement of Jesus remaining steadfast in His mission to save doesn't include OSAS? That seems odd.

You've brought up the seal of the H.S. No more time for now.

I explained fully with verses about that in my previous post.

There's a lot here. It's for your consideration - I doubt we're going to change each other's minds. I've tried to answer your points.

I'm not able to change anyone's mind. That belongs only to the Holy Spirit, who reveals truth to those who are seriously interested and not bound by pre-conceived ideas.

Could you, though, reply to this:

Peter 2:15-22
It's speaking of people who knew Jesus verse 15-20
After they have escaped the world by knowledge of the Lord...
they are AGAIN entangled in them and are overcome
21 for it would have been better for them not to have known the way of righteousness**... than to turn from the holy commandment**
22 it has happened to them: "a dog returns to his vomit"…

It's not speaking of eternity as some think, but the fact such a one will face God's anger for their turning away and the discipline that will come.

iow, it's about what will happen during this life that will be worse for such a one. Unbelievers are not now facing God's wrath. That begins during the Tribulation and for eternity. But the only time God has to discipline His own children is when they are alive on earth. And it ain't pretty for the rebellious ones.

 

[JLB]

Paul clearly taught eternal security in these verses:

Eph 1:13,14 - 13InHim, you also, after listening to the message of truth, the gospel of your salvation—having also believed, you were sealed in Him with the Holy Spirit of promise, 14who is given as a pledge of our inheritance, with a view to the redemption of God’s own possession, to the praise of His glory.

Eph 4:30 - Do not grieve the Holy Spirit of God, by whom you were sealed for the day of redemption.

2 Cor 1:22 - who also sealed us and gave us the Spirit in our hearts as a pledge.

2 Cor 5:5 - Now He who prepared us for this very purpose is God, who gave to us the Spirit as a pledge.

So, what has Paul taught here?

First, having believed, we are SEALED IN HIM (union with Christ) with the Holy Spirit of PROMISE, given as a PLEDGE FOR the day of redemption of God's own possession. This seal is a PLEDGE from God.

Again, you redefine a word here, so that you give it "another' meaning.


Seal here does not mean what you are claiming it means.

The Holy Spirit is given to those who obey the Gospel.

The Holy Spirit is God's seal of authenticity.

The Holy Spirit is the "proof" you are God's child.

The Holy Spirit is the grace of God, The Spirit of Grace.

Strong's # G4972 - https://www.blueletterbible.org/lang/Lexicon/Lexicon.cfm?strongs=G4972&t=KJV


to set a seal upon, mark with a seal, to seal

1. for security: from Satan
   
   
2. since things sealed up are concealed (as the contents of a letter), to hide, keep in silence, keep secret
   
   
3. in order to mark a person or a thing
   
   1. to set a mark upon by the impress of a seal or a stamp
      
      
   2. angels are said to be sealed by God
      
4. in order to prove, confirm, or attest a thing
   
   
   1. to confirm authenticate, place beyond doubt
      
      
      1. of a written document
         
         
      2. to prove one's testimony to a person that he is what he professes to be
         

This seal of the Holy Spirit is for those who believe/obey the Gospel.

This doesn't mean a person can not ever choose to turn away from God to idolatry, or go back to the unrighteous lifestyle they once had.


JLB

 

[JLB]

To abide means to have fellowship, not relationship. Which the difference I've already explained.

Your explanation tries to redefine what Jesus actually said, by playing word games that are not mentioned in the vers.

If anyone does not abide in Me, he is cast out as a branch and is withered; and they gather them and throw them into the fire, and they are burned. John 15:6


Your definition, would try to create some "new" understanding of a branch that is connected to the Vine, as if the branch is having "fellowship" with the Vine and can exist apart from the Vine. 2

Bottom line: The branch that is connected to the Vine has eternal life, and continues to have eternal life as long as their connected to the Vine.

If the branch becomes disconnected from the Vine, then they are cast into the fire and burned.

They were in Him, then they ended up being cast into the fire.

OSAS -



JLB

 

[FreeGrace]

Everyone who reads this thread, knows that you have redefined words to mean something other than their original meaning, so as to prop up your man made doctrine.

Nope.

Example:
Inherit the kingdom.

I've already explained it. One is free to accept or reject it, but I used Scripture to prove my point.

Rather than continuing to deal with all the verses you love to quote about inheriting the kingdom, or "reaping eternal life" we know from Eph 6:8 that reaping eternal life is based on performance. Yet HAVING or RECEIVING eternal life is based on faith in Christ (John 3:15,16, 5:24, 6:40, 47, 11:25-27) . So there is an obvious difference.

Jesus described the difference in this way:
John 10:10 - The thief comes only to steal and kill and destroy; I came that they may have life, and have it abundantly.

So we see here that Jesus taught about "having life" and "having it (life) more abundantly".

We all know that He was referring to eternal life. And He distinguished between just having it and having it abundantly.

If there was no difference, then what He said was silly and irrelevant to anything.

But He specifically noted just having it and having it abundantly.

To have eternal life is about ENTERING the kingdom. To have eternal life abundantly is about an INHERITANCE IN the kingdom.

iow, salvation and rewards. He was talking about both.

The onus is on your side to show that my analysis is wrong from Scripture.

So, please explain what Jesus meant by having life and having it more abundantly, if not what I've explained.