I come quickly...said 2,000 years ago?

[Orion]

NIGHTMARE, you can only assume you are right. You can't claim that you ARE right. Neither can I. I am just expressing my thoughts on this subject. AS I see it, there is enough to suggest that Mark 13:30 has serious problems. And it isn't the only one that brings up the problem of the words being for those contemporaries.

 

[researcher]

Let's see. A Bible generation is about 40 years. Different for modern times.

"A familial generation is defined as the average time between a mother's first offspring and her daughter's first offspring. The generation length is 25.2 years in the United States as of 2007[1] and 27.4 years in the United Kingdom as of 2004[2]."
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Generation

Jesus may have been saying "generation" in God's view of time so, a generation to God would be..let's see. A 40 year generation has 14,600 days in it. Those would be days according to God so multiply that by 1000 which is 14,600,000. So Jesus will be coming back in 14,600,000 years in view of God's time. By that time the earth might very well be breaking apart and "waxing old." Lol.

Guess we have more time than we thought, Lol. ;) :D

 

[Sparkey]

For the sake of argument, I will post as if Genesis 2 were literal (which I don't believe). Regardless of whether or not Adam "sinned", the act itself did not cause him to eventually die. In fact, if he had never "sinned", it was completely possible for him to still have died, physically. Where people have "glazed over eyes" about this is [not JUST that], but the thought that a physical death is somehow relevant when the spirit continues to exist.

As for this topic (original thread), I have read the responses, . . . but it is ridiculous to believe that what was being said was for some unknown time in the future when it would have made no sense to them [disciples] and to them, they would [and were] expecting it to be literal FOR them.

I wont go into details because this aint the topic,,,,,,1st Adam sinned in Gen 3 not 2,,,,and the sin caused him to die,,,God said you will not live a day (1000 years is a day to God) Adam died at 930,,,,he did not make a thousand years so indeed he died the same day.....

As we aren't discussing Genesis anymore in THIS topic, you didn't address what I said above. But if you wish to start a thread on this, I will tell you what I meant.

As per this topic, (as in the "Adam living 930 years") the "a day is as a thousand years" does not work for the problem with Mark 13:30. The relevant words are "this generation" and "until all these things". Other verses are equally as significant to that period of time.

This has been quoted and studied before. Yes, the phrases and words "this generation" and "Until all these things" are relevant. We need to look to what our Lord said about "the fig tree" and the lesson learned there as well. Jesus spoke of the "season". Of course He was talking to Hebrews when He spoke to His disciples. They understood seasons and Holy Days. He commanded, ""Take ye heed, watch and pray: for ye know not when the time is," and "Watch ye therefore: for ye know not when the master of the house cometh," and again, ""And what I say unto you I say unto all, Watch."

[attachment=0:19duunat]biblicalholidays.jpg[/attachment:19duunat]

While speaking of the Fig he said, ""Now learn a parable of the fig tree; When her branch is yet tender, and putteth forth leaves, ye know that summer is near:" What season? "Summer is near,", meaning that it was the later part of the Springtime season He spoke of. Did His disciples remember the lesson of the untimely fig found in Mark, chapter 11?

"And in the morning, as they passed by, they saw the fig tree dried up from the roots."
"And Peter calling to remembrance saith unto him, Master, behold, the fig tree which thou cursedst is withered away."

"And Jesus answering saith unto them, Have faith in God."

"And Jesus answering said unto him, "Seest thou these great buildings? there shall not be left one stone upon another, that shall not be thrown down."

"Tell us, when shall these things be? and what [shall be] the sign when all these things shall be fulfilled?"

"And Jesus answering them began to say, "Take heed lest any [man] deceive you:"

"And when ye shall hear of wars and rumours of wars, be ye not troubled: for [such things] must needs be; but the end [shall] not [be] yet."

"For nation shall rise against nation, and kingdom against kingdom: and there shall be earthquakes in divers places, and there shall be famines and troubles: these [are] the beginnings of sorrows."

"And the gospel must first be published among all nations."

"But when ye shall see the abomination of desolation, spoken of by Daniel the prophet, standing where it ought not, (let him that readeth understand,) then let them that be in Judaea flee to the mountains:"

"And pray ye that your flight be not in the winter."

"For [in] those days shall be affliction, such as was not from the beginning of the creation which God created unto this time, neither shall be."

"And except that the Lord had shortened those days, no flesh should be saved: but for the elect's sake, whom he hath chosen, he hath shortened the days."

"And then if any man shall say to you, Lo, here [is] Christ; or, lo, [he is] there; believe [him] not:"

"But in those days, after that tribulation, the sun shall be darkened, and the moon shall not give her light,"

"And the stars of heaven shall fall, and the powers that are in heaven shall be shaken."

"And then shall they see the Son of man coming in the clouds with great power and glory."

"And then shall he send his angels, and shall gather together his elect from the four winds, from the uttermost part of the earth to the uttermost part of heaven."

"Now learn a parable of the fig tree; When her branch is yet tender, and putteth forth leaves, ye know that summer is near:"

"So ye in like manner, when ye shall see these things come to pass, know that it is nigh, [even] at the doors."

"Verily I say unto you, that this generation shall not pass, till all these things be done."

"Heaven and earth shall pass away: but my words shall not pass away."

"But of that day and [that] hour knoweth no man, no, not the angels which are in heaven, neither the Son, but the Father."

"Take ye heed, watch and pray: for ye know not when the time is."

"[For the Son of man is] as a man taking a far journey, who left his house, and gave authority to his servants, and to every man his work, and commanded the porter to watch."

"Watch ye therefore: for ye know not when the master of the house cometh, at even, or at midnight, or at the cockcrowing, or in the morning:"

"Lest coming suddenly he find you sleeping."

"And what I say unto you I say unto all, Watch."

 

[Orion]

"In that day" was to be in THEIR time, though. I understand why there is trouble. Because these thing didn't happen in their generation, and to those who were there hearing these words, . . . then the futurist must conclude that "Jesus was speaking of some other time", . . . but that isn't the way other verses have this thought. They read as if they were for that time. I don't mean to be a broken record, . . .and to be honest, this isn't a huge issue for me, but I'm just trying to relay my own thoughts on this topic.

Will be back tomorrow.

 

[Sparkey]

Thanks Orion. I understand that you're posting your thoughts on the subject. When Jesus said, ""Verily I say unto you, that this generation shall not pass, till all these things be done," he knew what He was talking about. Can I be certain that I do?

In much the same way where if I had a question about your thoughts as you posted here, I could ask you about it specifically and hope that you could clarify -we can also "ask the Lord," in prayer, what He meant by this.

If I spoke of things regarding my personal life to my kids who asked, "When dad? When?" and replied regarding my getting a new job and buying a new house, I could say, "All these things," meaning going on a job interview, accepting a position, saving money --will happen soon, and not mean making the final payment on the house that I would buy would necessarily be "soon" in the same sense. The answer to their question regarding the "When" of my plans would have to be complex and not "simple" because I have multiple plans and the timing of each isn't exactly the same. I could not rightly answer, "June 30th, 2010." Of course their focus would be on the actual move date because they would be thinking about losing friends and going to a new school. My view of the conversation between Jesus and His disciples is similar to this analogy.

"But now I go my way to him that sent me; and none of you asketh me, Whither goest thou?"
"But because I have said these things unto you, sorrow hath filled your heart."
"Nevertheless I tell you the truth; It is expedient for you that I go away: for if I go not away, the Comforter will not come unto you; but if I depart, I will send him unto you."

There does seem to be much discussion about these Scriptures and what Jesus meant when He said, "this generation," and "all these things," and "In THOSE days, after the tribulation," and etc. To the question, "Tell us, when shall these things be? and what [shall be] the sign when all these things shall be fulfilled?" Jesus replied, "Take heed lest any deceive you."

When the disciples asked about those "things" --it was a complex question. The "things" that were spoken of in the reply can not be said to be only one thing. One of the things that Jesus spoke of was the destruction of the temple. Did He mean His body or the actual temple? In hindsight it appears that He may have meant both His body and the actual temple. When he clarified other parts of their question about "all these things," he spoke about wars and rumors of wars, famine and "troubles", the gospel being published, the abomination of Desolation (and the Holy Spirit through Mark asks that the reader understands this part specifically), and Jesus states that in "those days" there shall be great affliction.

Then he speaks about the time after that, when He says, "But in those days, after that tribulation." After that time (now it seems to me as if Jesus has delineated three different times) the sky is rolled up, the stars fall, heavenly powers themselves are shaken, and THEN shall they see the Son of man coming in the clouds with great power and glory. And "then" He sends His angels to gather the elect.

That's just how one man sees it. We're told to take heed and not let others deceive us. It's good to ask the Lord in prayer what He meant and to continue to seek understanding. I'm not here saying, "I have the answer," either. Only that we know that if we knock the door is opened, if we seek we shall find and if we ask, it shall be answered.

I'm still asking.

Cordially,
~Sparrow

 

[unclejed]

As with a lot of threads, this one has disintegrated into a lot of posturing and people trying to prove they are correct.....a useless exercise unless they enjoy bantering with each other. I say this thread is exhausted. Bottom line........Jesus said He is coming quickly and I believe Him. You need not understand Him to believe Him.

 

[Orion]

I understand your point, Jed, . . . but why even mention it to them [his contemporary followers] as "being soon" if it wasn't going to happen for some 2,000 years later? He was speaking to humans, and humans see things in the linear, and 2,000 years [for humans] is hardly "soon". Even so, "this generation", "some of you here" and such phrases point to this 'second coming' as imminent. See here as to what I mean:

~ 1 Corinthians 7:29 speaks of the time being soon.

~ 1 Thessalonians 4:17 talks about "we who are alive and remain..."

~ Matthew 16:28 mentions "Some of you here will not taste death..."

~ Matthew 10:23 talks about those who were being sent out to preach would not "finish going through the cities of Israel before the son of man comes."

~ Matthew 23:36 speaks of "...all these things..." and "...upon this generation...".

~ Matthew 24:34 also mentions this generation "not passing away".

~ Mark 9:1 states "...some of those standing here..."

~ Matthew 26:64 is, to me, of great importance. Jesus is talking directly to Caiaphas, the High Priest, when he says, "You will see the son of man coming in the clouds..."

I realize that we all have our own thoughts and beliefs on this topic, and it is probably the case that we won't convince each other to come over to the other's way of thinking. Even in Christian circles, this topic is debated, . . . between the futurist and the preterist. I've heard both sides on the radio before.

My bottom line is, if we can't take the words literal (and it seems as though, taking the bible as literal is what christians say we must do), but rather must discect and interpret what seems to be quite literal into some type of imprecise talk or hyperbole, then it makes me wonder how we can take anything serious that Jesus said when something as serious as the "end of the world" can be chalked up to "embellishment".

This is all I have to say on this topic. Thanks for the interaction.

 

[NIGHTMARE]

NIGHTMARE, you can only assume you are right. You can't claim that you ARE right. Neither can I. I am just expressing my thoughts on this subject. AS I see it, there is enough to suggest that Mark 13:30 has serious problems. And it isn't the only one that brings up the problem of the words being for those contemporaries.

There is no problem in mark 13:30,,,the problem comes with lack of understading,,,and not taking Christ words for what they are......

The disciples asked Christ simple questions,,,please try and follow its not hard......

Mark 13:4 "Tell us, when shall these things be? and what shall be the sign when all these things shall be fulfilled?"

Ok now we have a subject.......And Christ is about to reveal the 7 seals,,,that will happen before the end of the age,,,,,,now if you go revelation you can follow along......

Mark 13:5 "And Jesus answering them began to say, "Take heed lest any many deceive you:"

Mark 13:6 "For many shall come in My name, saying, `I am the Christ; and shall deceive many."

Revelation 6:2 "And I saw, and behold, a white horse: and he that sat on him had a bow; and a crown was given unto him: and he went forth conquering, and to conquer."

Mark 13:7 "And when ye shall hear of wars and rumors of wars, be ye not troubled: for shuch things must needs be; but the end shall not be yet."

Revelation 6:3 "And when He had opened the second seal, I heard the second beast say, "come and see."

Revelation 6:4 "And there went out another horse that was red: and power was given to him that sat thereon to take peace from the earth, and that they should kill one another: and there was given unto him a great sword."

Christ is simply explaining what will happen to our generation (generation of the fig tree) the Generation THAT WILL SEE THE EVENTS OF REVELATION......

Were the disciples going to see the events of revelation?????? of course not....
When Christ said "This" generation wont pass until these events happen,,,,what do you think the word "This" is refering to???????

Well if you follow subject and object like you were learned in school,,,,you would know that its refering to the generation thats being spoken of throughout the chp.......

Christ is telling 1 group of people about another a future group of people,,,,,,the subject is of the future group of people not the 1 group.....

SO when he says "this" generation wont pass He is refering to the subject of the future group of people....

The only problem I see is people being ignorant of the word or having doubts about the word and then using there own doubts to say theres a problem....No theres no problem.....

 

[Orion]

Again, . . . we probably won't get each other to agree on this. I appreciate the discussion.

Blessings!

Orion

 

[NIGHTMARE]

If you skip Mark 13.31 when reading, you have:

I tell you the truth, this generation will certainly not pass away until all these things have happened ... No one knows about that day or hour, not even the angels in heaven, nor the Son, but only the Father. - NIV

It's clear from the parallel Matthew passage that the disciples had asked two questions - when will the temple be destroyed? and what are the signs of your return and the end of the age? - and probably thought the two events were contemporaneous. But Mark 13.30 and 13.32 use the Greek for these and that, which - I'm told, I'm no Greek scholar - carry the same distinction as in English: this/these near at hand, that further away.

So Jesus' answer is: the near-at-hand things, the destruction of the temple, will be accomplished within a generation, the far-off things - His return - only the Father knows.

No not really,,,the destruciton of the temple is future as well,,,Christ was not speaking of Titus but was giving referance to Zechariah 14.........

 

[researcher]

If you skip Mark 13.31 when reading, you have:

I tell you the truth, this generation will certainly not pass away until all these things have happened ... No one knows about that day or hour, not even the angels in heaven, nor the Son, but only the Father. - NIV

It's clear from the parallel Matthew passage that the disciples had asked two questions - when will the temple be destroyed? and what are the signs of your return and the end of the age? - and probably thought the two events were contemporaneous. But Mark 13.30 and 13.32 use the Greek for these and that, which - I'm told, I'm no Greek scholar - carry the same distinction as in English: this/these near at hand, that further away.

So Jesus' answer is: the near-at-hand things, the destruction of the temple, will be accomplished within a generation, the far-off things - His return - only the Father knows.

No not really,,,the destruciton of the temple is future as well,,,Christ was not speaking of Titus but was giving referance to Zechariah 14.........

:o ;) :P

 

[Godfrey]

...
So Jesus' answer is: the near-at-hand things, the destruction of the temple, will be accomplished within a generation, the far-off things - His return - only the Father knows.

No not really,,,the destruciton of the temple is future as well,,,Christ was not speaking of Titus but was giving referance to Zechariah 14.........

Well, if a generation is 40 years .... and the temple was destroyed in AD70 .... and Jesus was speaking around AD30 ....

I'll stick

 

[researcher]

...
So Jesus' answer is: the near-at-hand things, the destruction of the temple, will be accomplished within a generation, the far-off things - His return - only the Father knows.

No not really,,,the destruciton of the temple is future as well,,,Christ was not speaking of Titus but was giving referance to Zechariah 14.........

Well, if a generation is 40 years .... and the temple was destroyed in AD70 .... and Jesus was speaking around AD30 ....

I'll stick

I'll have to stick to the 40 year generation also. ;)

 

[Bob0matiC]

2Pe 3:9 The Lord is not slow concerning His promise, as some count slowness, but is long-suffering toward us, not purposing that any should perish, but that all should come to repentance.

 

[NIGHTMARE]

...
So Jesus' answer is: the near-at-hand things, the destruction of the temple, will be accomplished within a generation, the far-off things - His return - only the Father knows.

No not really,,,the destruciton of the temple is future as well,,,Christ was not speaking of Titus but was giving referance to Zechariah 14.........

Well, if a generation is 40 years .... and the temple was destroyed in AD70 .... and Jesus was speaking around AD30 ....

I'll stick

If you stick,,, thats fine......But dont use wrong information to do so (stick)

Who said a generation was 40 years???????? There are 3 different documentations for the lenght of a Generation,,,and actually some say 4....and the temple wasnt destroyed in 70Ad,,,,but I donts matter if you say the temple was destroyed in 70AD,,,,,Titus and the Roman army was not the destruction being talked about........Titus did not leave one stone not upon another....It will be more of a supernatural destruction when Christ returns...........

 

[Godfrey]

Who said a generation was 40 years????????

Well, the first occasion I was told that was when an atheist posted the passage on a forum as an example of error in the Bible. I, from a position of pure ignorance, argued that genea might bear the alternative rendering of race as in the NIV footnote to the passage. A third poster, an academic in a Welsh university - Lampeter, I think, which has a strong Theology department - sided with the atheist and said that genea could not be construed in that way and referred usually to a period of 40 years. So I went looking and found the explanation I offered in Willink's Commentary on the Gospel of St Matthew.

Different timespans are mentioned - I couldn't find 4 years (!) but did find 40 years, 33 years and 30-40 years. Or we could take the expiry date as when the last member of that generation died, I suppose.

But does it matter? I trot out the little explanation if I come across railing infidels challenging the Bible's inerrancy, but my salvation doesn't depend on my having a correct interpretation of every verse in the Bible

 

[NIGHTMARE]

Who said a generation was 40 years????????

Well, the first occasion I was told that was when an atheist posted the passage on a forum as an example of error in the Bible. I, from a position of pure ignorance, argued that genea might bear the alternative rendering of race as in the NIV footnote to the passage. A third poster, an academic in a Welsh university - Lampeter, I think, which has a strong Theology department - sided with the atheist and said that genea could not be construed in that way and referred usually to a period of 40 years. So I went looking and found the explanation I offered in Willink's Commentary on the Gospel of St Matthew.

Different timespans are mentioned - I couldn't find 4 years (!) but did find 40 years, 33 years and 30-40 years. Or we could take the expiry date as when the last member of that generation died, I suppose.

But does it matter? I trot out the little explanation if I come across railing infidels challenging the Bible's inerrancy, but my salvation doesn't depend on my having a correct interpretation of every verse in the Bible

Genesis 6:3
And the LORD said, My spirit shall not always strive with man, for that he also is flesh: yet his days shall be an hundred and twenty years.

could be a 120 years for a generation......

I trot out the little explanation if I come across railing infidels challenging the Bible's inerrancy, but my salvation doesn't depend on my having a correct interpretation of every verse in the Bible

True but it is written to put on the full armor of God.......SO I would say try to get as many of those interpretations correct as you can......

 

[researcher]

Genesis 6:3
And the LORD said, My spirit shall not always strive with man, for that he also is flesh: yet his days shall be an hundred and twenty years.

could be a 120 years for a generation......

Lol. Come on, NM. How long did people live back then? Mortality rates were pretty low I believe.
So, when Jesus said stuff like:

Luk 17:25 But first must he suffer many things, and be rejected of this generation.

We know what generation condemned him.

Luk 11:49 Therefore also said the wisdom of God, I will send them prophets and apostles, and some of them they shall slay and persecute:
Luk 11:50 That the blood of all the prophets, which was shed from the foundation of the world, may be required of this generation;

And we know there was a huge slaughter of Jews between 66 and 70AD, (mostly 70) thus they truly got their comeuppance like he said they would. ;) :D

 

[NIGHTMARE]

Genesis 6:3
And the LORD said, My spirit shall not always strive with man, for that he also is flesh: yet his days shall be an hundred and twenty years.

could be a 120 years for a generation......

Lol. Come on, NM. How long did people live back then? Mortality rates were pretty low I believe.
So, when Jesus said stuff like:

Luk 17:25 But first must he suffer many things, and be rejected of this generation.

We know what generation condemned him.

Luk 11:49 Therefore also said the wisdom of God, I will send them prophets and apostles, and some of them they shall slay and persecute:
Luk 11:50 That the blood of all the prophets, which was shed from the foundation of the world, may be required of this generation;

And we know there was a huge slaughter of Jews between 66 and 70AD, (mostly 70) thus they truly got their comeuppance like he said they would. ;) :D

But Christ said I send apostles,,prophets,,,,,so we are talking about the slaughter of prophets and apostles,,,,,just because there Jews doesnt make them prophets.....

Im sure Christ was not speaking about a 70Ad generation full of prophets......

 

[researcher]

Genesis 6:3
And the LORD said, My spirit shall not always strive with man, for that he also is flesh: yet his days shall be an hundred and twenty years.

could be a 120 years for a generation......

Lol. Come on, NM. How long did people live back then? Mortality rates were pretty low I believe.
So, when Jesus said stuff like:

Luk 17:25 But first must he suffer many things, and be rejected of this generation.

We know what generation condemned him.

Luk 11:49 Therefore also said the wisdom of God, I will send them prophets and apostles, and some of them they shall slay and persecute:
Luk 11:50 That the blood of all the prophets, which was shed from the foundation of the world, may be required of this generation;

And we know there was a huge slaughter of Jews between 66 and 70AD, (mostly 70) thus they truly got their comeuppance like he said they would. ;) :D

But Christ said I send apostles,,prophets,,,,,so we are talking about the slaughter of prophets and apostles,,,,,just because there Jews doesnt make them prophets.....

Im sure Christ was not speaking about a 70Ad generation full of prophets......

No, he was talking about all of the prophets of the past, lol.

Luk 11:47 Woe unto you! for ye build the sepulchres of the prophets, and your fathers killed them.
Luk 11:48 Truly ye bear witness that ye allow the deeds of your fathers: for they indeed killed them, and ye build their sepulchres.
Luk 11:49 Therefore also said the wisdom of God, I will send them prophets and apostles, and some of them they shall slay and persecute:
Luk 11:50 That the blood of all the prophets, which was shed from the foundation of the world, may be required of this generation;
Luk 11:51 From the blood of Abel unto the blood of Zacharias, which perished between the altar and the temple: verily I say unto you, It shall be required of this generation.

Also, slay and persecute. The prophets were slain, the apostles were persecuted (Act 7:52, 1Th 2:15). ;) :D