Bible Study I Just Can't Seem to Figure This Out

[Razeontherock]

I have to respectfully disagree with you. No one has ever gone up to heaven nor has Jesus ever taken anyone from the grave up with Him when He ascended into heaven. This goes against that of John 3:13; John 5:28, 29; 1 Corinthians 15:51-55 and 1 Thessalonians 4:13-18.

In 2 Corinthians 5:1-8 Paul is speaking about flesh and Spirit. When we are in the flesh we are absent from the fellowship with God just as Adam lost fellowship when he disobeyed God's command. When we are in the Spirit, yet being in this body, we are present with the Lord in fellowship with Him. Below I have given an explanation of each verse as it reads.

2 Corinthians 5:1-8
vs. 1 is speaking about the tabernacle of God that is within us as we are the Temple of God, 1 Corinthians 3:16, 17, and when we physically die we will have eternal life with Him in the New Jerusalem
vs. 2 we desire to be in our new home, the New Jerusalem, that will be ushered down from heaven at the end of days, Rev 21
vs. 3 we are clothed in Gods righteousness as we will not be found naked, Isaiah 61:10
vs. 4 We are the Temple of God, but yet we do have burdens as we still live in this fleshly body waiting for immortality when Christ returns, 1 Corinthians 15:51-54
vs. 5 basic as we have Gods Spirit dwelling in us as we need to walk in the Spirit and not in the flesh
vs. 6 we are confident knowing that if we are walking in the flesh we are absent from God because flesh and Spirit can not mix, Galatians 5:17
vs. 7 we walk by faith, which is Christ Jesus as we seek those things from above and not the things of this world, Colossians 3:1-4
vs. 8 we are confident if we are walking in the Spirit of God (Holy Spirit) we are no longer following the lust of the flesh, 1 John 2:16

Jesus never descended into hell. Many believe Jesus descended into hell as they base this according to the Apostles creed, but scripture does not say this. Ephesians 4:9 (Now that he ascended, what is it but that he also descended first into the lower parts of the earth? 1 Peter 3:19 By which also he went and preached unto the spirits in prison; When Jesus laid in the tomb for three days his body was dead, but His spirit was very much alive. The spirits in prison that Jesus went to preach to are those angels that are reserved in everlasting chains under darkness unto the judgment of the great day. These angels are separate from the third Satan gathered with him as these angels bound in chains kept not their first estate, but left their own habitation, he hath reserved in everlasting chains under darkness unto the judgment of the great day, Jude 1:5-7. These angels are those found in Genesis 6:1-3 that have been bound and chained in prison ever since until the day of judgement. Jesus was making show of them openly, triumphing over them in it, Colossians 2:13-15. This means that those who come to Jesus their sin is blotted out having spoiled these angels (principalities and power) who caused men to sin and that they too will be judged and cast into the lake of fire reservered for Satan and his angels.

Lots of problems here. Flesh and Spirit cannot mix? What exactly do you think Jesus is? The very heart of the Gospel is flesh and Spirit mixing: Emmanuel.

Jews and Muslims don't believe this. Jesus is fully God, and fully man. You just don't get more basic than that in Christianity.

Thus your verse 6 is affected. Not saying that the typical teaching of the US church is correct.

Next, you go on to again correctly list the things we KNOW Jesus did in hell, in the very lowest parts of hell; and then say Jesus never descended into hell. That's quite some trick. How'd He do that? I think it stands to reason that since He did these things that took place in hell, that He went there to do it. Although nothing is impossible with God, so maybe not?

 

[Razeontherock]

It is only our breath/spirit that returns back to God who gave it when this physical body returns to the dust of the ground from where it came from, Genesis 2:7; Ecc 12:7. It's the breath of God that makes us a living soul. The soul makes up the conscious part of ones being is that of thought, action and emotion.

Correct. This is why worship is so important. So what happens to the soul after we die? The breath of life returning to God can't possibly be exclusive to the Christian, as that happens to everybody, and presumably all living things too.

There is mystery that remains in Christianity ...

 

[HeIsRisen2018]

None of this is making anymore sense to me lol and Jesus did go to Hell after he died remember? You're the one who told me to look it up Ray.



1 Peter 3:18-20 "For Christ also suffered once for our sins, the righteous for the unrighteous, to bring you to God. He was put to death in the body but made alive in the spirit. After being made alive, He went and made proclamation to the imprisoned spirits- to those who were disobedient long ago when God waited patiently in the days of Noah while the ark was being built."




By the way, how is the soul different from the spirit?

 

[Poor Old Spike]

If the Bible says that all those who believe in Jesus and confess Him as their Lord and Savior shall receive eternal life and never die, then why does it also speak of those same people "sleeping" in their Graves until Christ returns? And if the saved don't automatically go to Heaven, then why did Jesus promise the thief that he would join Him that day in paradise? Especially since I recently learned that He descended into Hell help the lost.

We've all gone to bed and woken up 8 hours later but it often seemed much less than 8 hours..
So perhaps when we die time stops completely for us until Jesus resurrects us, and when we wake from what Shakespeare's Hamlet called "that sleep of death" it seems like only a split second has passed.
"In the twinkling of an eye the dead shall be raised imperishable and we shall be changed" (1 Cor 15:52)
It's as if God's time is very different from "human time", for example when Jesus said to that chap "today you'll be with me in paradise" it could have meant he'd wake up on resurrection day thousands of years away, but to him it'd seem like just the same day..

 

[Razeontherock]

None of this is making anymore sense to me lol and Jesus did go to Hell after he died remember? You're the one who told me to look it up Ray.



1 Peter 3:18-20 "For Christ also suffered once for our sins, the righteous for the unrighteous, to bring you to God. He was put to death in the body but made alive in the spirit. After being made alive, He went and made proclamation to the imprisoned spirits- to those who were disobedient long ago when God waited patiently in the days of Noah while the ark was being built."




By the way, how is the soul different from the spirit?

Actually I didn't tell you to look it up, but I'm glad you could. That's still not as good as reading it all the way through though.

But Jesus wasn't saving the lost in hell.

Only the Word of God itself can inform us of the difference between soul and Spirit, the NT tells us that. Genesis 1 is where it all starts, God breathes life into Adam via Spirit, and then Adam BECOMES a living soul. Two different things.

This is why worship is so important; God coming into contact with us changes us, recreating our soul. Your inner being now groans for it

 

[Poor Old Spike]

..Jesus never descended into hell. Many believe Jesus descended into hell as they base this according to the Apostles creed, but scripture does not say this..

I agree. I mean, why should he want to visit hell anyway?..

 

[JLB]

Jesus never descended into hell. Many believe Jesus descended into hell as they base this according to the Apostles creed, but scripture does not say this. Ephesians 4:9 (Now that he ascended, what is it but that he also descended first into the lower parts of the earth? 1 Peter 3:19 By which also he went and preached unto the spirits in prison; When Jesus laid in the tomb for three days his body was dead, but His spirit was very much alive. The spirits in prison that Jesus went to preach to are those angels that are reserved in everlasting chains under darkness unto the judgment of the great day. These angels are separate from the third Satan gathered with him as these angels bound in chains kept not their first estate, but left their own habitation, he hath reserved in everlasting chains under darkness unto the judgment of the great day, Jude 1:5-7. These angels are those found in Genesis 6:1-3 that have been bound and chained in prison ever since until the day of judgement.

I agree with this except the first part which says...

Jesus never descended into hell.

Where were the angels chained in prison, if not in hell.

Tartarus is certainly considered hell, which is certain down in the heart of the earth.



JLB

 

[JLB]

I have to respectfully disagree with you. No one has ever gone up to heaven nor has Jesus ever taken anyone from the grave up with Him when He ascended into heaven. This goes against that of John 3:13; John 5:28, 29; 1 Corinthians 15:51-55 and 1 Thessalonians 4:13-18.

It actually doesn’t go against these scriptures, but is proven by these scriptures.


How is it the saints return with Jesus from heaven, at the coming of the Lord, if they are not in heaven?

• For if we believe that Jesus died and rose again, even so God will bring with Him those who sleep in Jesus.

Jesus returns at the end of the age with those who have died and gone to heaven and are awaiting their new resurrected bodies.


13 But I do not want you to be ignorant, brethren, concerning those who have fallen asleep, lest you sorrow as others who have no hope. 14 For if we believe that Jesus died and rose again, even so God will bring with Him those who sleep in Jesus. 15 For this we say to you by the word of the Lord, that we who are alive and remain until the coming of the Lord will by no means precede those who are asleep. 16 For the Lord Himself will descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of an archangel, and with the trumpet of God. And the dead in Christ will rise first. 17 Then we who are alive and remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds to meet the Lord in the air. And thus we shall always be with the Lord. 18 Therefore comfort one another with these words.
1 Thessalonians 4:13-18

Those who “sleep” in Jesus, are the bodies of the dead in Christ, as further clarified by Paul in verse 16.

• the dead in Christ will rise first.

Zechariah says it this way -

Thus the Lord my God will come, and all the saints with You.
Zechariah 14:5


Jude -


Now Enoch, the seventh from Adam, prophesied about these men also, saying, “Behold, the Lord comes with ten thousands of His saints, Jude 14


JLB

 

[for_his_glory]

It actually doesn’t go against these scriptures, but is proven by these scriptures.


How is it the saints return with Jesus from heaven, at the coming of the Lord, if they are not in heaven?

• For if we believe that Jesus died and rose again, even so God will bring with Him those who sleep in Jesus.

Jesus returns at the end of the age with those who have died and gone to heaven and are awaiting their new resurrected bodies.


13 But I do not want you to be ignorant, brethren, concerning those who have fallen asleep, lest you sorrow as others who have no hope. 14 For if we believe that Jesus died and rose again, even so God will bring with Him those who sleep in Jesus. 15 For this we say to you by the word of the Lord, that we who are alive and remain until the coming of the Lord will by no means precede those who are asleep. 16 For the Lord Himself will descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of an archangel, and with the trumpet of God. And the dead in Christ will rise first. 17 Then we who are alive and remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds to meet the Lord in the air. And thus we shall always be with the Lord. 18 Therefore comfort one another with these words.
1 Thessalonians 4:13-18

Those who “sleep” in Jesus, are the bodies of the dead in Christ, as further clarified by Paul in verse 16.

• the dead in Christ will rise first.

Zechariah says it this way -

Thus the Lord my God will come, and all the saints with You.
Zechariah 14:5


Jude -


Now Enoch, the seventh from Adam, prophesied about these men also, saying, “Behold, the Lord comes with ten thousands of His saints, Jude 14


JLB

I agree God will bring with Him those who sleep in Jesus when He returns on the last day, John 6:40, but not how you believe, but how it is written. When Christ returns we are then caught up to Him in the clouds to meet Jesus in the air, both alive and those who sleep in their graves as we are then transformed from corruptible to incorruptible and mortal to immortal, John 5:28, 29; 1 Corinthians 15:51-55, and then will be with the Lord forever.

According to 1 Thessalonians 4:13-17 we who are in Christ that have physically died are asleep in our grave as it's only our breath/spirit that returns to God who gave it and made us a living soul, Genesis 2:7; Ecc 12:7. This is what Jesus brings with Him from heaven plus His army of angels. We are not God's army that returns with Him.

How can the dead in Christ rise from their graves if they are already in heaven. This would contradict the scriptures I already gave.

Even Zechariah 14:5 says we will come with Christ as we meet Him in the air before He sets His feet on the Mount of Olives. Jude 14 is the same.

 

[HeIsRisen2018]

Wow, I never realized that there would be so many different answers to a single question when I first posted this.

 

[for_his_glory]

I agree with this except the first part which says...




Where were the angels chained in prison, if not in hell.

Tartarus is certainly considered hell, which is certain down in the heart of the earth.



JLB

Please show the scripture where it uses the word hell.

Strong's Exhaustive Concordance: Hell
Hebrew # 7585 Sheol, Hades, or the world of the dead, grave, hell, pit
Greek # 86 place of departed souls, grave, hell

Ephesians 4:9 (Now that he ascended, what is it but that he also descended first into the lower parts of the earth?

1 Peter 3:19 By which also he went and preached unto the spirits in prison

 

[for_his_glory]

Lots of problems here. Flesh and Spirit cannot mix? What exactly do you think Jesus is? The very heart of the Gospel is flesh and Spirit mixing: Emmanuel.

Jews and Muslims don't believe this. Jesus is fully God, and fully man. You just don't get more basic than that in Christianity.

Thus your verse 6 is affected. Not saying that the typical teaching of the US church is correct.

Next, you go on to again correctly list the things we KNOW Jesus did in hell, in the very lowest parts of hell; and then say Jesus never descended into hell. That's quite some trick. How'd He do that? I think it stands to reason that since He did these things that took place in hell, that He went there to do it. Although nothing is impossible with God, so maybe not?

Isaiah 64:6 But we are all as an unclean thing, and all our righteousnesses are as filthy rags; and we all do fade as a leaf; and our iniquities, like the wind, have taken us away.

John 3:6 That which is born of the flesh is flesh; and that which is born of the Spirit is spirit.

Galatians 5:16 This I say then, Walk in the Spirit, and ye shall not fulfil the lust of the flesh. 17 For the flesh lusteth against the Spirit, and the Spirit against the flesh: and these are contrary the one to the other: so that ye cannot do the things that ye would.

Flesh can not inherit the kingdom of God as it is as a filthy rag to God. This is why we have to be Spiritually born again as we are renewed by Gods Holy Spirit that indwells as as we no longer walk after this sinful flesh, but walk in the Spirit.

Please show me the scripture where it uses the word hell as in Jesus descending into hell

 

[HeIsRisen2018]

I got another question then. What exactly is a creed if Jesus descending into Hell isn't biblical because I sort of thought that they went together.

 

[for_his_glory]

Correct. This is why worship is so important. So what happens to the soul after we die? The breath of life returning to God can't possibly be exclusive to the Christian, as that happens to everybody, and presumably all living things too.

There is mystery that remains in Christianity ...

There is no mystery to those who search the scriptures as the Holy Spirit reveals all that God wants us to know as it is already written.

Matthew 10:28 And fear not them which kill the body, but are not able to kill the soul: but rather fear him which is able to destroy both soul and body in hell.

Genesis 2:7 And the LORD God formed man of the dust of the ground, and breathed into his nostrils the breath of life; and man became a living soul.

Ecc 12:7 then shall the dust return to the earth as it was: and the spirit shall return unto God who gave it.

Everyone's breath/spirit goes back to God when they physically die as God reserves it unto the day of judgement, John 5:28, 29. Without the breath/spirit the soul no longer exist. The soul makes up the conscious part of ones being is that of thought, action and emotion. When you physically die there is no more consciousness.

 

[for_his_glory]

I got another question then. What exactly is a creed if Jesus descending into Hell isn't biblical because I sort of thought that they went together.

The Apostle Creed is a Catholic Creed That is part of the Catechism of the Catholic Church. Some Churches have also adopted it into their services as a prayer of confession.

I believe in God, the Father almighty,
creator of heaven and earth.
I believe in Jesus Christ, God's only Son, our Lord,
who was conceived by the Holy Spirit,
born of the Virgin Mary,
suffered under Pontius Pilate,
was crucified, died, and was buried;
he descended to the dead.
On the third day he rose again;
he ascended into heaven,
he is seated at the right hand of the Father,
and he will come to judge the living and the dead.
I believe in the Holy Spirit,
the holy catholic Church,
the communion of saints,
the forgiveness of sins,
the resurrection of the body,
and the life everlasting. Amen.

 

[HeIsRisen2018]

The Apostle Creed is a Catholic Creed That is part of the Catechism of the Catholic Church. Some Churches have also adopted it into their services as a prayer of confession.

I believe in God, the Father almighty,
creator of heaven and earth.
I believe in Jesus Christ, God's only Son, our Lord,
who was conceived by the Holy Spirit,
born of the Virgin Mary,
suffered under Pontius Pilate,
was crucified, died, and was buried;
he descended to the dead.
On the third day he rose again;
he ascended into heaven,
he is seated at the right hand of the Father,
and he will come to judge the living and the dead.
I believe in the Holy Spirit,
the holy catholic Church,
the communion of saints,
the forgiveness of sins,
the resurrection of the body,
and the life everlasting. Amen.

Oh okay, apart from the Catholic references and the Catholic part, I pretty much agree with all of that.

 

[Razeontherock]

Isaiah 64:6 But we are all as an unclean thing, and all our righteousnesses are as filthy rags; and we all do fade as a leaf; and our iniquities, like the wind, have taken us away.

John 3:6 That which is born of the flesh is flesh; and that which is born of the Spirit is spirit.

Galatians 5:16 This I say then, Walk in the Spirit, and ye shall not fulfil the lust of the flesh. 17 For the flesh lusteth against the Spirit, and the Spirit against the flesh: and these are contrary the one to the other: so that ye cannot do the things that ye would.

Flesh can not inherit the kingdom of God as it is as a filthy rag to God. This is why we have to be Spiritually born again as we are renewed by Gods Holy Spirit that indwells as as we no longer walk after this sinful flesh, but walk in the Spirit.

Please show me the scripture where it uses the word hell as in Jesus descending into hell

English did not become a language until over a millennium after Scripture was complete, so usage of the word hell (or not) is irrelevant. You yourself have posted perfectly valid Scripture of Jesus' descent into hell. So the Bible itself is the basis of this belief, not "just" a Creed. Plus, Creeds were written to summarize Scripture, not to deviate from it.

The need to be born again does not affect what it means to be "absent from the body, and present with the Lord." I simply state we may not know what this means as well as many assume. Spirit and flesh indeed mix, and co-exist. This is the essence of Christianity. Separating the two is death, not sanctification. Walking in the Spirit is in no way being "absent from the body;" you could do with a better understanding there. It might produce something useful, that we've all missed!

 

[Razeontherock]

There is no mystery to those who search the scriptures as the Holy Spirit reveals all that God wants us to know as it is already written.

Matthew 10:28 And fear not them which kill the body, but are not able to kill the soul: but rather fear him which is able to destroy both soul and body in hell.

Genesis 2:7 And the LORD God formed man of the dust of the ground, and breathed into his nostrils the breath of life; and man became a living soul.

Ecc 12:7 then shall the dust return to the earth as it was: and the spirit shall return unto God who gave it.

Everyone's breath/spirit goes back to God when they physically die as God reserves it unto the day of judgement, John 5:28, 29. Without the breath/spirit the soul no longer exist. The soul makes up the conscious part of ones being is that of thought, action and emotion. When you physically die there is no more consciousness.

Anytime anyone says there's no mystery left in Christianity, that is a huge red flag. The Bible speaks of unresolved mystery, and warns us against thinking we know it all. Your last sentence here directly contradicts Scripture, and one might conclude the transfiguration is recorded specifically for this reason.

Further, we aren't told to comfort one another with the words that "when you die there is no more consciousness;" come now, what does the Bible say about that?

 

[Razeontherock]

I got another question then. What exactly is a creed if Jesus descending into Hell isn't biblical because I sort of thought that they went together.

Creeds are Biblical, that's their purpose.

 

[HeIsRisen2018]

Anytime anyone says there's no mystery left in Christianity, that is a huge red flag. The Bible speaks of unresolved mystery, and warns us against thinking we know it all. Your last sentence here directly contradicts Scripture, and one might conclude the transfiguration is recorded specifically for this reason.

Further, we aren't told to comfort one another with the words that "when you die there is no more consciousness;" come now, what does the Bible say about that?

I agree, I believe that there are an awful lot of mysteries that we don't know and might not even ever know about Christianity.