I Need Help

[Edward]

I have two friends which are in need of clairification from me and I do not know how to point them in the right direction. Perhaps you can help.

Friend one is Christian. He has helped me to understand some things. I was being too legalistic with myself, and he pointed me to Romans 6-7-8. We are not under the law, but grace. We are released from the law in Christ Jesus. I understand this now and felt a big relief when I fully took it to heart. The problem is that I feel in my heart that he is using these passages to justify continuing in sin. He steals from his employer, he gets drunk regularly and when I admonish him about it, he falls back on Rom. 6-7-8 and says the Lord knew beforehand that he would do these things so he is forgiven and not under the law of the commandments. I quote Paul to him and say but shall we continue in sin that grace may abound? God forbid. But he immediately falls back to Rom. 6-7-8 and and declares that he is not under the law. I would certainly not want to see him condemned over continuing to sin where he should make striving to obey the law, for all is Gods word. Can you help me with this?

Friend two is semi illiterate, didn't have enough education to learn to read. Over time, he has certainly learn to read some if not very well. (He sure spends a lot of time online and can read that well enough.) He comes to visit ever so often and I try to tell him about God, his grace and that he should seek God through his word. He immediately uses his crutch of illiteracy and says that he can't read the Bible, and everything he does try to read every once in a blue moon, scares him so much that he wants to put it down. I know that there will be no exceptions, and that the the Word of God has been given to (all) him enough for him to be able to make the choice. That he gets scared about it is proof that the Word has reached him, yet he continues to want to hold the position that God will save him, and that he does not have to do anything because he purportedly can not understand the Bible. Please help me to point him in the right direction! I am as a child in Christ and do not have the right answers for him, yet know in my heart that he is wrong.

THX.

 

[Knotical]

Friend one, even though he correctly pointed out that you may have been a bit too legalistic, is trying to use the same area of the bible to justify his destructive, and sinful, behavior. What he is missing is that God only forgives the sins we repent and ask forgiveness of. Just because we are Christians does not mean we are completely immune to the pitfalls of sin.

Friend two appears to be using his illiteracy as an excuse not to explore Christianity. Do you feel he has been called by the Holy Spirit? If he is unwilling to read the bible then the only think you can do is just be a godly example. Should the Holy Spirit call to him he will be able to use your example as a starting point to knowing Christ better. By the way, we all have our own weaknesses, it is very easy to use them as an excuse not to grow. That really is what is going on here. I would recommend just having him read through the gospels as a starting point and see where things go from there.

 

[Bfnaught]

It sounds like both your friends have something in common, deflecting personal responsibility for their actions. If friend #1 is using scripture to justify criminal activity then I would question his salvation. He is being willfully ignorant to the truth because he found a few verses that justifies his actions. Be careful with your interactions with him, bad company corrupts good character.

Friend #2 is using his disability to avoid the truth. Adult illiteracy can be debilitating, but if he wanted to get into the word he would. Sounds like he is creatively blowing you off.

Continue to pray for them both and focus on convicting them with your life and lifestyle. There's probably not a single scripture that will suddenly change them. You've planted the seed, let God work.

 

[Hammer]

Invariably, when someone complains that another is "legalistic", that someone is just wanting to rebel against something they shouldn't be rebelling against. Like the friend who steals from his employer and justifies it in the name of freedom. Christians seek righteousness. If they're not doing that, they don't belong to Christ.

 

[Genesis]

As a brother said above,friend one is obviously using scriptures to justify his sinful behaviour.this friend of yours has got no concern about christianity or christ (or he wouldnt have argued like that) and the best way to deal with him is to use the scriptures as your weapon.First of all ask him Who Is Great? Jesus or Paul? and he would say Jesus (got no choice).Then make him read MAT 5:18,which implies that the commandments are still active.Then Slap him smartly and immediately ask for forgiveness and try to justify your action by showing him MAT 18:21-22 and even tell him that according to the verse he is bound to forgive you many times.this is the best way to make him realize that scriptures cannot be used to justify sinful ways.

 

[Knotical]

As a brother said above,friend one is obviously using scriptures to justify his sinful behaviour.this friend of yours has got no concern about christianity or christ (or he wouldnt have argued like that) and the best way to deal with him is to use the scriptures as your weapon.First of all ask him Who Is Great? Jesus or Paul? and he would say Jesus (got no choice).Then make him read MAT 5:18,which implies that the commandments are still active.Then Slap him smartly and immediately ask for forgiveness and try to justify your action by showing him MAT 18:21-22 and even tell him that according to the verse he is bound to forgive you many times.this is the best way to make him realize that scriptures cannot be used to justify sinful ways.

Now that would make for an interesting sunday school session. A physical illustration of what that verse means.

 

[Drew]

IFriend one is Christian. He has helped me to understand some things. I was being too legalistic with myself, and he pointed me to Romans 6-7-8. We are not under the law, but grace. We are released from the law in Christ Jesus. I understand this now and felt a big relief when I fully took it to heart.

I politely suggest that your friend misunderstands what Paul is saying. When Paul refers to not being under "law", he is referring to the Law of Moses. Only Jews were ever under the Law of Moses, so if you are not Jewish, Paul's comment simply has no application to you.

The problem is that I feel in my heart that he is using these passages to justify continuing in sin. He steals from his employer, he gets drunk regularly and when I admonish him about it, he falls back on Rom. 6-7-8 and says the Lord knew beforehand that he would do these things so he is forgiven and not under the law of the commandments.

Well, even though your friend is not under the Law of Moses (and nobody is since it was abolished in the first century, but that's another discussion, he most certainly is not entitled to do whatever he wants. Even though most western evangelicals will deny this, each of us will stand before God and be accountable for our lives, with eternal life in the balance (Romans 2:6-7).

 

[Drew]

Then make him read MAT 5:18,which implies that the commandments are still active....

I think that Matt 5:18 is not saying this, and I can explain why if you like. However, I think this is a bit of a tangent. Jesus (like Paul) is talking about the Law of Moses, not some vague moral law. And the Law of Moses was only ever for Jews. But all that aside, I suspect that we agree that the Christian living today most certainly has the clear responsibility to live a morallly upright life even if (as I am claiming) that Christian is not under the Law of Moses.

 

[joep222]

Friend 1:

1 John 3:8-9 Whoever makes a practice of sinning is of the devil, for the devil has been sinning from the beginning. The reason the Son of God appeared was to destroy the works of the devil. (9) No one born of God makes a practice of sinning, for God's seed abides in him, and he cannot keep on sinning because he has been born of God.

1 John 1:8-10 If we say we have no sin, we deceive ourselves, and the truth is not in us. (9) If we confess our sins, he is faithful and just to forgive us our sins and to cleanse us from all unrighteousness. (10) If we say we have not sinned, we make him a liar, and his word is not in us.

Friend 2:
There are many free audio Bibles (YouVersion for starters) out there so there is no excuse for not being able to read text as a justification to stay away from the Word of God. If he is saved and truly loves the Lord, he will want to know more about Him. We learn more about primarily through His revealed word in scripture. If you love someone and they sent you 66 love letters (66 books of the Bible), would you hide them in a drawer and never read them?

 

[Genesis]

I think that Matt 5:18 is not saying this, and I can explain why if you like. However, I think this is a bit of a tangent. Jesus (like Paul) is talking about the Law of Moses, not some vague moral law. And the Law of Moses was only ever for Jews. But all that aside, I suspect that we agree that the Christian living today most certainly has the clear responsibility to live a morallly upright life even if (as I am claiming) that Christian is not under the Law of Moses.

I know that Jesus was talking about the LAW.How can we say that the LAW is no longer applicable when the LORD himself says until the heaven and the earth pass away The heaven is still in its place and so is the earth,implying that the laws are still applicable.Any verses from the Bible,which we can use to justify that we are no longer under The LAW, must reconcile with until the heaven and the earth pass away I dont follow these LAWS myself and just as we all brothers do, believe in the GRACE of our LORD JESUS CHRIST.The verse stands as a warning for those who justify their immoral behaviour with GRACE verses from The Bible.

 

[Knotical]

I know that Jesus was talking about the LAW.How can we say that the LAW is no longer applicable when the LORD himself says until the heaven and the earth pass away The heaven is still in its place and so is the earth,implying that the laws are still applicable.Any verses from the Bible,which we can use to justify that we are no longer under The LAW, must reconcile with until the heaven and the earth pass away I dont follow these LAWS myself and just as we all brothers do, believe in the GRACE of our LORD JESUS CHRIST.The verse stands as a warning for those who justify their immoral behaviour with GRACE verses from The Bible.

Absolutely. Jesus Himself said, "If you love me, you will keep my commandments."

 

[Hammer]

Absolutely. Jesus Himself said, "If you love me, you will keep my commandments."

Given that Jesus is God, his commandments would include those found in the Old Testament. Jesus summed up the law with the commandment of loving God completely, and secondly, loving your neighbor as yourself. That's a summery, not something to replace the law.

Paul says Christians aren't under the law, not that the law has passed away. If Christians were under the law, we would be cursed and doomed. But, Christians by their reborn nature love God and their neighbor. If they don't love God then they're not Christians. So, by nature, Christians keep the law without being under the law. Christ's sacrifice pays the blood, on our behalf, required by the law.

We don't murder our neighbor because it's our Christian nature to love our neighbor, and people don't murder the ones they love. If we murder our nature, we're not of a Christian nature, and are lost.

 

[Free]

Friend 1:

1 John 3:8-9 Whoever makes a practice of sinning is of the devil, for the devil has been sinning from the beginning. The reason the Son of God appeared was to destroy the works of the devil. (9) No one born of God makes a practice of sinning, for God's seed abides in him, and he cannot keep on sinning because he has been born of God.

1 John 1:8-10 If we say we have no sin, we deceive ourselves, and the truth is not in us. (9) If we confess our sins, he is faithful and just to forgive us our sins and to cleanse us from all unrighteousness. (10) If we say we have not sinned, we make him a liar, and his word is not in us.

Friend 2:
There are many free audio Bibles (YouVersion for starters) out there so there is no excuse for not being able to read text as a justification to stay away from the Word of God. If he is saved and truly loves the Lord, he will want to know more about Him. We learn more about primarily through His revealed word in scripture. If you love someone and they sent you 66 love letters (66 books of the Bible), would you hide them in a drawer and never read them?

I agree with this post. It seems to me that friend #1 knows at least some things that are mentioned in the Bible and knows about Jesus but quite possibly does not know him. It is highly suspect when someone claims to be a Christian but continually and willfully lives in sin. The life of a true believer ought to be radically different than an unbeliever, or at least there ought to be the desire to live truthfully and faithfully to God and the Scriptures.

 

[Davies]

Edward,

We can't be the judge of people to know what their legal status is before God. From what you shared, we couldn't have any assurance they are saved. What I would suggest is sharing the Gospel with them. Most people, if you ask them if they are a good person, will say they are. Take them through the Ten Commandments by asking them questions to show them what they are in truth, and that they don't measure up to God's standard of what is good. If they confess to be lying, thieving, blaspheming, adulterers at heart, then ask them how will God let them into heaven. This should reveal what they believe about Jesus, and perhaps their motivation for why they try to obey if they do at all. I would be surprised if they could tell you what the Gospel is because by their behavior, they are showing they don't understand it, or at least haven't surrendered to it. Praying for them I think would be a great idea. Point the way to Jesus. That's all we are called to do. We can do it with our words and by what we do with the help of the Holy Spirit.
2 Timothy 2:24-26

New King James Version (NKJV)

<sup class="versenum">24 </sup>And a servant of the Lord must not quarrel but be gentle to all, able to teach, patient, <sup class="versenum">25 </sup>in humility correcting those who are in opposition, if God perhaps will grant them repentance, so that they may know the truth, <sup class="versenum">26 </sup>and that they may come to their senses and escape the snare of the devil, having been taken captive by him to do his will.


Romans 1:16

New King James Version (NKJV)

The Just Live by Faith

<sup class="versenum">16 </sup>For I am not ashamed of the gospel of Christ,<sup class="footnote" value="[a]">[a]</sup> for it is the power of God to salvation for everyone who believes, for the Jew first and also for the Greek.

- Davies

 

[Knotical]

Given that Jesus is God, his commandments would include those found in the Old Testament. Jesus summed up the law with the commandment of loving God completely, and secondly, loving your neighbor as yourself. That's a summery, not something to replace the law.

Paul says Christians aren't under the law, not that the law has passed away. If Christians were under the law, we would be cursed and doomed. But, Christians by their reborn nature love God and their neighbor. If they don't love God then they're not Christians. So, by nature, Christians keep the law without being under the law. Christ's sacrifice pays the blood, on our behalf, required by the law.

We don't murder our neighbor because it's our Christian nature to love our neighbor, and people don't murder the ones they love. If we murder our nature, we're not of a Christian nature, and are lost.

So, in summary you agree with what I said.

 

[Drew]

I know that Jesus was talking about the LAW.How can we say that the LAW is no longer applicable when the LORD himself says until the heaven and the earth pass away.

Jesus was a product of his times and culture and I suggest that we in the modern west have been a little careless in understanding the implications of this. On a surface reading, Matthew 5:18 is indeed a challenge to those of us who think that, at least in a certain specific sense, the Law of Moses has been retired. Those who hold the opposing view have their own challenges to face, such as Ephesians 2:15 (and Romans 7) which, to me, unambiguously declare the abolition of the Law of Moses, at least in terms of “rules and regulationsâ€.

Here is Matthew 5:17-19 in the NASB:

Do not think that I came to abolish the Law or the Prophets; I did not come to abolish but to fulfill. 18"For truly I say to you, until heaven and earth pass away, not the smallest letter or stroke shall pass from the Law until all is accomplished. 19"Whoever then annuls one of the least of these commandments, and teaches others to do the same, shall be called least in the kingdom of heaven; but whoever keeps and teaches them, he shall be called great in the kingdom of heaven

How can one read this text and possibly think that the prescriptions of the Law of Moses do not remain in force, given that heaven and earth are still here?

I think that there is a way to faithfully read this text and still claim that Law of Moses was retired 2000 years ago as Paul seems to so forcefully argue that it was (e.g. Eph 2:15). My proposal hinges on the assertion that in Hebrew culture apocalyptic “end of the world†language was commonly used in a specifically metaphorical mode for the specific purposes of investing commonplace events with their theological significance.

This is not mere speculation – we have concrete evidence that this was so. Isaiah writes:

10For the stars of heaven and their constellations
Will not flash forth their light;
The sun will be dark when it rises
And the moon will not shed its light

What was going on? <?xml:namespace prefix = st1 ns = "urn:schemas-microsoft-com

</st1:City>Babylon</ST1:p was being destroyed, never to be rebuilt. There are other examples of such metaphorical “end of the world†imagery being used to describe much more “mundane†events within the present space-time manifold. Let's be clear: this is proof from Biblical precedent that one need not necessarily understand Jesus as asserting that as long as "literal heaven and earth" remain, the Law will still be in force.

So it is possible that Jesus is not referring to the destruction of matter, space, and time as the criteria for the retirement of the Law. But what might He mean here? What is the real event for which “heaven and earth passing away†is an apocalyptic metaphor.

I would appeal to the phrase “until all is accomplished†and point the reader to Jesus’ proclamation that “It is accomplished!†as He breathed His last on the Cross. Perhaps this is what Jesus is referring to. I believe that seeing it that way allows us to take Paul at his word in his many statements which clearly denote the work of Jesus as the point in time at which Law of Moses was retired.

 

[stovebolts]

As for friend 1:

Jesus has a confrontation with Satan, and Satan uses scripture. Please notice how Jesus responds.

Matthew 4:6-7 And saith unto him, If thou be the Son of God, cast thyself down: for it is written, He shall give his angels charge concerning thee: and in their hands they shall bear thee up, lest at any time thou dash thy foot against a stone. Jesus said unto him, It is written again, Thou shalt not tempt the Lord thy God.

Scripture calls for discernment and certain passages are elevated above other passages. We see above that Satan quotes scripture, but then so does Jesus.

Who's right and why? Which part of scripture carries more weight? Is all scripture pertinent for every situation? Why / why not?

 

[Drew]

I know that Jesus was talking about the LAW.How can we say that the LAW is no longer applicable when the LORD himself says until the heaven and the earth pass away

It should be clear from last post, and from the entirely reasonable assumption that Jesus was capable of using metaphorical language, that a statement that the Law will remain in force "until heaven and earth pass away" need not be taken literally.

Over and above the arguments in the previous post, the Jews of Jesus day believed that the temple in Jerusalem was the place where heaven and earth met. I think it is therefore at least plausible that Jesus is saying "the Law will remain in force until the temple is destroyed". And that indeed happened in 70 AD.

I know this will sound terribly patronizing (and that is not my intent) but modern Christians need to be more fully educated about the entire corpus of scripture as well as the ancient Hebrew culture more generally. The use of metaphorical end of the world language is fairly well established as a standard practice, if you make the effort to do the homework to find this out. We also need to be less condescending in our implicit assumption that 1st century people (like Jesus) were somehow incapable of using a good metaphor.

I suggest from the broad sweep of the New Testament, it is quite clear - the Law of Moses came to an end in the first century.

 

[Drew]

Re my "debate" with Genesis about the Law and its status: I think that, with respect to the first friend in the OP, we both would agree that this person is mistaken if s/he believes that how s/he lives is not vitally important. So, while the status of the Law of Moses is interesting and relevant to many things, it is probably not relevant to the matter at issue in the OP: this person needs to understand that we are indeed "required" to live a live that is governed by Christian principles, many of which, of course, are the same principles that undergird the Law of Moses. And this is the case, regardless of the status of the Law of Moses.

 

[stovebolts]

I suggest from the broad sweep of the New Testament, it is quite clear - the Law of Moses came to an end in the first century.

I would say that we are under a new covenant... while others refuse to enter into the new covenant.
John 9:28 And they reviled him, and said, Thou art his disciple; but we are disciples of Moses.

John 1:17 For the law was given through Moses; grace and truth came through Jesus Christ.

Jeremiah 31:31-33 Behold, the days come, saith the LORD, that I will make a new covenant with the house of Israel, and with the house of Judah: Not according to the covenant that I made with their fathers in the day that I took them by the hand to bring them out of the land of Egypt; which my covenant they brake, although I was an husband unto them, saith the LORD: But this shall be the covenant that I will make with the house of Israel; After those days, saith the LORD, I will put my law in their inward parts, and write it in their hearts; and will be their God, and they shall be my people.

Matthew 26:28 for this is my blood of the covenant, which is poured out for many unto remission of sins.

Hebrews 8:8 For finding fault with them, he saith, Behold, the days come, saith the Lord, That I will make a new covenant with the house of Israel and with the house of Judah;

Hebrews 10:16 This is the covenant that I will make with them After those days, saith the Lord: I will put my laws on their heart, And upon their mind also will I write them; then saith he,

Hebrews 12:24 and to Jesus the mediator of a new covenant, and to the blood of sprinkling that speaketh better than that of Abel.

Hebrews 13:20 Now the God of peace, who brought again from the dead the great shepherd of the sheep with the blood of an eternal covenant, even our Lord Jesus,